NBA all-time 5-15

[Tangled Up In Red]

One thing I'll say for sure -- this is around where Kobe should be, and the general twentysomething NBA fans who put Kobe top 10, or incredibly, top 3, are out of their minds.

Indeed.

Shaq has somehow become really underrated. He bulldozed his way to a back-to-back-to-back titles

I mean, this is maybe why people underrate him? I watched a game at the Garden from the second row (we may have been in the B's penalty box) where he put up 41. Dunks and free throws, force of nature without a mirage of 'basketball' skill. That's what rules allowed back then. Legal, but man, uninspiring.
He became a player over time, but he was way more Mikan than Hakeem.

 

[Sausage in Section 17]

Indeed.


I mean, this is maybe why people underrate him? I watched a game at the Garden from the second row (we may have been in the B's penalty box) where he put up 41. Dunks and free throws, force of nature without a mirage of 'basketball' skill. That's what rules allowed back then. Legal, but man, uninspiring.
He became a player over time, but he was way more Mikan than Hakeem.

Did Mikan move like this as a rookie?

His athleticism, combined with his size and power his first few years was something revolutionary for the game at that time.


edit- to your point, there are exactly zero non-dunk hoops in that video. But I’d say he had skill, certainly skill in a man that size that had really never been seen before. His ability to run the fast break, dribble, and pass were all excellent for a player in that position. Shaq just couldn’t really shoot.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I worshipped Wilt. I met him. He was probably a better athlete than Bo Jackson. But I can't put him ahead of Bird and Magic.
Sure we can say what if. What if he knew championships would be the only currency to fame, etc.
But the name of the game is winning and there no stories about Wilt lifting teammates, etc.
I cannot have a top five without those 2.

Lebron
Jordan
Bird
Magic

 

[CPT Neuron]

Not to derail this too much, but I will put forward this analogy......Duncan is the equivalent to Brady as the Spurs are the equivalent to the Pats during their 15+ year run. I'll go back to my corner now....

 

[Kliq]

Indeed.


I mean, this is maybe why people underrate him? I watched a game at the Garden from the second row (we may have been in the B's penalty box) where he put up 41. Dunks and free throws, force of nature without a mirage of 'basketball' skill. That's what rules allowed back then. Legal, but man, uninspiring.
He became a player over time, but he was way more Mikan than Hakeem.

I actually really disagree with this. It's a very common notion; that Shaq was this physical marvel that only could dunk the basketball and lacked skill. Shaq was a highly skilled basketball player. He had excellent fundamentals, his footwork was fantastic, he was a very good passer for a big man, and perhaps most importantly, he had a real soft touch around the basket. Someone like Dwight Howard has similar physical attributes but had no touch around the rim and just chucked balls at the basket, which limited him offensively. Shaq had quick feet and a delicate touch around the basket to convert jump hooks, mini-fall aways and finger rolls. Yes, he bulldozed a lot of people for dunks, but he also got a lot of dunks because he was quick on the block, knew how to utilize up-fakes, and knew when to cut to the basket. Check out his field goals in this video; yes he is big and strong, but he uses excellent fundamental skill to score most of them.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4Nzc-Mc-88

 

[Jimbodandy]

I worshipped Wilt. I met him. He was probably a better athlete than Bo Jackson. But I can't put him ahead of Bird and Magic.
Sure we can say what if. What if he knew championships would be the only currency to fame, etc.
But the name of the game is winning and there no stories about Wilt lifting teammates, etc.
I cannot have a top five without those 2.

Lebron
Jordan
Bird
Magic

I'm with this, and not particularly hung up on the order.

 

[Spelunker]

Did Mikan move like this as a rookie?

His athleticism, combined with his size and power his first few years was something revolutionary for the game at that time.


edit- to your point, there are exactly zero non-dunk hoops in that video. But I’d say he had skill, certainly skill in a man that size that had really never been seen before. His ability to run the fast break, dribble, and pass were all excellent for a player in that position. Shaq just couldn’t really shoot.

I intellectually know that they overlapped, but still it's very discombobulating to see him post up McHale and Parish in that video.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I grew up in an era when bigs dominated. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, were your GOATS. But the many times I do this there is a flaw in each of the pantheon bigs, other than maybe one guy.

Wilt- free throws, and lets be honest his personality was a weakness, 'So I lead the league in assists' could have been 'so we won the title the next year'
Russ- couldn't shoot,
Kareem- pushed around by physical guys, famously temperamental and moody
Shaq- free throws, really uneven as a defender, Brook Lopez in drop coverage= huge portions of Shaq's career on D
Hakeem- is he the guy without weakness? quickest of them all. Forced to choose I pick him.

 

[Kliq]

Russell is easily the best big man of all-time if we are just evaluating guys based on dominance and skill in their era, not taking into account the game has evolved much further than where it was in the 60s.

Wilt to me is usually overrated on most lists; he was the ultimate numbers guy who failed constantly in the playoffs and in big games. He clashed with teammates, coaches and owners, was traded twice during his prime, constantly put himself over the team and almost anyone who played in that era respected Russell more than Wilt as a player. I urge everyone to read Elgin Baylor's biography and see what he was to say about Russell vs Wilt.

Wilt is like Russell Westbrook, his numbers blow you away but if you investigate his team success and his attitude, you realize that he really wasn't as good as his numbers suggest. He certainly had the talent and the ability to be the GOAT, but he wasn't wired anywhere close to people like Jordan, Russell, LeBron, Magic, Bird, etc. He did win two titles (which really isn't a lot when you consider the true Top 10 guys all have at least three) but one of them was as an overqualified role player.

 

[Sausage in Section 17]

Hakeem- is he the guy without weakness? quickest of them all. Forced to choose I pick him.

When I was doing a bunch of comparing guys last night, I noticed that Hakeem is the only player who appears on both the all time Top 10 lists for both steals, and blocks (he's #1 all time). I guess we don't have those stats for Wilt or Russell to compare, but absent that, a case can be made for Hakeem being the most dominant defender of all time.

 

[coremiller]

I grew up in an era when bigs dominated. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, were your GOATS. But the many times I do this there is a flaw in each of the pantheon bigs, other than maybe one guy.

Wilt- free throws, and lets be honest his personality was a weakness, 'So I lead the league in assists' could have been 'so we won the title the next year'
Russ- couldn't shoot,
Kareem- pushed around by physical guys, famously temperamental and moody
Shaq- free throws, really uneven as a defender, Brook Lopez in drop coverage= huge portions of Shaq's career on D
Hakeem- is he the guy without weakness? quickest of them all. Forced to choose I pick him.

Hakeem was a very good volume scorer, but he was not a super-efficient scorer, and he was merely an ok passer. It was hard to build a great offense around him because he was a ball hog who took a lot of difficult shots. People overrate him offensively because his game was so aesthetically pleasing, but Shaq and Kareem were generally more dominant offensive players. Even with his free throw woes, Shaq got so many dunks and good shots that he was much more efficient than Olajuwon, and Shaq was a better passer out of the post as well.

Shaq's dominance also had knock-on effects; teams were forced to play lumbering stiffs against him to match up with him and soak up fouls, which limited his opponents' offense. And he drew a ton of fouls, which meant a) opposing bigs were often in foul trouble, and b) Shaq's teams got into the penalty faster.

The TS+ numbers tell a lot of the story: Kareem is 114, Shaq is 111, Hakeem is 104.

 

[coremiller]

When I was doing a bunch of comparing guys last night, I noticed that Hakeem is the only player who appears on both the all time Top 10 lists for both steals, and blocks (he's #1 all time). I guess we don't have those stats for Wilt or Russell to compare, but absent that, a case can be made for Hakeem being the most dominant defender of all time.

If they had tracked those stats in the 60s, a) Russell would be way ahead historically, and b) Wilt would have gone out of his way to pad his blocks/steal stats at the expense of playing sound defense.

 

[Kliq]

People like Bob Ryan who saw them play will tell you that Russell and Wilt averaged like, 10 blocks per game. Russell came into a league where nobody played above the rim and players often didn't jump at all on their shots. The Celtics offense was based on Russell blocking shots with such ease, he could direct the ball right to Cousy to launch a fast break. Centers like Neil Johnston (3x scoring champ in the mid-50s) who didn't really jump and played entirely below the rim were played right out of the league.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Sorry but different question, but which matchup from history would you like to see?
Just 1

Peak Russell vs peak Kareem. End of the line Wilt gave KAreem trouble, and blocked his skyhook. Neither were bruisers and both used quickness and verticality. The thinking games of Russ guard

Russell is easily the best big man of all-time if we are just evaluating guys based on dominance and skill in their era, not taking into account the game has evolved much further than where it was in the 60s.

Wilt to me is usually overrated on most lists; he was the ultimate numbers guy who failed constantly in the playoffs and in big games. He clashed with teammates, coaches and owners, was traded twice during his prime, constantly put himself over the team and almost anyone who played in that era respected Russell more than Wilt as a player. I urge everyone to read Elgin Baylor's biography and see what he was to say about Russell vs Wilt.

Wilt is like Russell Westbrook, his numbers blow you away but if you investigate his team success and his attitude, you realize that he really wasn't as good as his numbers suggest. He certainly had the talent and the ability to be the GOAT, but he wasn't wired anywhere close to people like Jordan, Russell, LeBron, Magic, Bird, etc. He did win two titles (which really isn't a lot when you consider the true Top 10 guys all have at least three) but one of them was as an overqualified role player.

Westboork - Wilt is a great comparison.

I will say that Wilt's title with the Lakers was where he like Russell with the Celtics just dominated the defensive end. Sharman correctly understood that having Wilt pass was better for the team than everyone standing around watching him score 40 points every night.