NBA Finals: Celtics vs Mavs

Who wins?

  • Celtics in 4

    Votes: 22 5.0%
  • Celtics in 5

    Votes: 120 27.3%
  • Celtics in 6

    Votes: 222 50.6%
  • Celtics in 7

    Votes: 52 11.8%
  • Mavs in 4-5

    Votes: 3 0.7%
  • Mavs in 6-7

    Votes: 20 4.6%

  • Total voters
    439
  • Poll closed .

chilidawg

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Current DARKO rating for players likely to play in this series.

(Apologies for the DARKO obsession, just easy to use. If some other stats shake out far differently, someone feel free to add to the discussion)

Tatum: 5.9
Doncic: 4.8
Kyrie: 3.9
Porzingis: 3.4
Brown: 3.1
White: 2.8
Holiday: 1.7

Powell: 1.6
Gafford: 1.0
Horford: 0.9
Pritchard: 0.8
Kornet: 0.6
Hauser: 0.3

Exum: 0.3
Washington: -0.1
Jones Jr.: -0.2
Hardaway: -0.4
Lively: -0.4
Kleber: -0.5
Green: -0.9
Hardy: -2.0


Obviously DARKO can't account for everything and maybe some of these numbers are not currently accurate (Powell seems high, Lively low for example). But overall, the Mavs are going to be giving minutes to a lot of guys DARKO thinks are not very good.

Maybe they are just the perfect fits with Luka/Kyrie, and maybe Luka/Kyrie have an incredible series. But it's also not an accident the Celtics won 64 games and the Mavs, despite their late season improvement, won 50.
Very surprising to me that Lively is so low, especially compared to Gafford. Their box score #'s (Shooting %, Reb%, Block%) are all really similar and their On-Off are almost exactly the same. From a +/- perspective the team has been much better with Lively on the floor in the playoffs, +16 with Lively vs. -3 with Gafford. It's an interesting comparison since they play almost exactly similar roles, Lively being more of a passer the main difference.
 

InstaFace

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Also, if you watched Dallas play in these playoffs and are thinking Cs in five or less, I need those green tinted shades. Dallas is a handful all the way around and they are a different team than the regular season. It feels foolish to discount what they have accomplished to get here.

Finally, it feels like other playoff teams had plans to exploit Luka's defensive flaws and yet here the Mavs are. Its easier said than done. He seems to clamp down when it counts and Kidd et al are good at hiding him.
I don't think it's discounting Dallas' accomplishments to say that the Celtics are a matchup nightmare for them (in the same way that a fully-healthy Knicks or Denver team would've been a matchup nightmare for the Cs).

  1. Dallas runs a lot of lob action for their bigs. KP being back neutralizes this as well as any player in the league could, not to mention that our guards are fully capable of chasedowns on a fast break or a drive-and-kick play where we're rotating.
  2. Dallas has excellent outside shooting from Luka, Kyrie and Washington... but we have some premier on-ball defenders and tend to mark more tightly, and not over-protect the paint and thereby only lightly contest. Luka made a living last series on hunting switches onto Gobert and then cooking him any of several ways... but (A) Al will do a lot better than that, (B) we're used to scramming KP off of those things when they happen, and (C) our guards are much better about fighting around screens if they want to deny the switch. Preventing Kyrie from getting creative is a nightmare (he's had a crazy year from 3, too), but we have the single best counter to that in Jrue and White.
  3. A big piece of Luka and Kyrie's game is drawing free throws, but we are the best defensive team at defending without fouling (regular season, and even moreso in the playoffs). Dallas concedes many more free throws - 13th in the playoffs, basically same as Indiana. Dallas also misses a lot of free throws they do take - 72.8% in the playoffs, by far the worst of all playoff teams.
  4. Dallas concedes a lot of offensive rebounds (11th in playoffs, 21st in reg season, marginally better than Indiana), while Boston gives up the fewest in the playoffs (per CTG). The putbacks that became common against Minnesota won't be there for them.
  5. Conversely, Dallas' defense is weak on perimeter defense. Gafford is a traditional "Anchor big" center, good on drive help and rim protection, but both of our opposite numbers are huge 3-point threats who will pull him out of the paint. Jones and Washington (guarding the Jays, we can presume) are plus defenders by DARKO (average per LEBRON), but neither has the Kawhi-like combo of strength and agility to stop Jaylen drives or Tatum stepbacks without help - as the highlights from March make quite plain.
  6. Meanwhile, the wing matchup gets worse for Dallas: Washington (their 3rd-leading scorer) is a stationary shooter on offense, meaning we can park one of the Jays next to him to rest on some possessions, and unless they bring him into the action more, which he isn't great at, they're conceding a lot of off-ball help from his defender too. KAT and McDaniels were getting caught in no-man's land a lot there - most of Washington's shots were open or wide open - but the same won't be true for this series, not least because we've focused on taking away corner shooting as a priority for basically the whole playoffs.

Obviously they've been highly effective lately against LAC, OKC and MIN. They're going to score. But I'm not sure any of the ways that they repeatedly exploited their opponents to score are going to be there against Boston in high volumes. Whereas, Dallas's defensive strengths (post play, denying 3s, transition) are mostly not countering anything that we've relied heavily on in the playoffs.

So yeah, overall, I think 5 games is the most likely result. Wide error bars in a short series, of course, and maybe Kidd has some tricks up his sleeve, but to me it's pretty easy to visualize how we get it done in 5.
 

HomeRunBaker

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People are roasting Boston's easy path, but Dallas had a neutered Clips, Thunder who were never truly contending yet despite the 1 seed, and dodged Denver when Minnesota was a terrible matchup for Denver, but in turn Minnesota was a great matchup for Dallas.

Dallas is getting overhyped big time, IMO
The other side could also say that Boston could have been down 3-1 to Indiana if not for the Pacers collars getting tighter. Reality is that both teams took care of their business to achieve their goal to this point.
 

chilidawg

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The Celtics are a much better team (at least as the regular season indicates) than the Mavericks are. In my view, Porzingis, White, and Jrue are all better than anyone on the Mavs not named Kyrie or Luka.

To me it goes, among the top 10 guys:

ELITE TIER
1. Tatum (yes because defense matters, I think he's overall better than Luka, but that's not the majority opinion)
1a. Luka
3. Kyrie

ALL-STAR TIER
4. Brown

REALLY FRICKING GOOD TIER
5. Porzingis
6. Jrue
7. White (though 5-7 can really be mixed up in various orders; they're all close)

SOLID TIER
8. Horford
9. Washington
10. Likely

So of the top 10 players in this series, I think Boston has 6 of them, compared to 4 for Dallas. And Boston's 6 are all in the top 8, while Dallas has the worst two of the 10. The Celtics are a better team and have overall significantly better players.

But two megastars can do massive damage and carry a team to victory, even over teams that are overall better. I just thought the whole "Kyrie, fat Luka, and a bunch of mediocre guys" makes it seem like it should be a cakewalk for Boston. But I don't know that it will be. Kyrie and Luka are incredible.

I really don't see too much that's controversial about my take here.
I'd put Jones and Gafford in the Solid tier as well. Both are very impactful defensively, Gafford is a great rim runner and Jones has shot well from 3. I think the Dallas role players are better than what the C's have seen in the first 3 rounds.
 

Ed Hillel

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I think Kyrie>Brown in 2024 is controversial. Brown is really fricking good.
Brown’s defense is also more useful in this matchup since he can guard Dallas’s best player, while Kyrie will be on our 4th-5th guy.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Well, Kyrie and Luka are both going to easily be in the Hall of Fame, and that's more guaranteed HOFers than Boston has (Tatum will get there, and I hope Brown will, but I'm not sure about that). One HOF and a better supporting cast often loses to two HOFers. Especially if (as national media would have you believe) the best of the three sure-fire HOFers in the series is on Dallas.
Well if it makes you feel better (and it shouldn't, because it's caveated response to a silly argument), I think Al Horford has a much better chance at making the HoF than most give him credit for. His NBA career doesn't get him there (although 5 All Stars, an All NBA 3rd team, with his longevity, is nothing to shake a stick at) but he was the best player on an all-time great college team that won 2 chips plus he's the best player to ever come out of the DR and had a decent international career. That stuff counts for the basketball HoF. If he wins a championship, I'd give him better than 50% odds to make it.
 

lars10

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One thing that should be interesting is to see how the Indiana series effected the Celtics.. the pace of play against the Mavs is going to be so much different..and something they'd seemingly be a lot more comfortable with. As others have said here.. really would like Boston to play fast and force Luka to run a lot. Minn allowed him to rest a lot on defense.
 

InstaFace

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Current DARKO rating for players likely to play in this series.

(Apologies for the DARKO obsession, just easy to use. If some other stats shake out far differently, someone feel free to add to the discussion)
Well, given that it's a decent sample size now (17 games for Dallas, 14 for Boston), worth posting the On-Court +/- per 100s for the guys, >=200' played:

+16.6 Lively
+15.9 Horford
+13.8 Holiday
+13.4 Hauser (!)
+12.9 Tatum
+10.0 White

+9.3 Irving
+8.4 Brown
+7.7 Washington
+7.4 Jones
+5.8 Doncic
+4.4 Green
+4.3 Pritchard
-3.3 Gafford

(N.B. Kleber +8.3 in 139', Exum -11.1 in 103', Kornet -1.8 in 118', Porzingis +3.0 in 105', and Tillman +32.1!! in 50')

I think that tells you a few things:

(1) Dallas just doesn't outscore its playoff opponents by anywhere as much / as reliably as Boston has
(2) Doncic gives a lot more back on D than we might think, certainly than the national NBA media will tell you
(3) Lively might be, if anything, underrated by most of us here. And after denying the Jones/Washington corner 3s, figuring out a way to neutralize Lively might be Mazzulla's #2 priority. He doesn't start, but he splits time about 50-50 with Gafford and is in for a lot of crunch time, and his athleticism would probably trouble our bigs somewhat.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The originator of Pointz is now disowning a true Pointz God. How far we have fallen.....
Pointz was your creation not mine haha. I did find it useful to point out Grant Williams stunk.... and one of the reasons he stunk is that he would go many games in a row without scoring any pointz

My Grant takes seemed to have aged quite well, for the record :)
Ha. Maybe??? It does sound like something salty I'd say for my complete disdain for overrated offense-only players

I may have used it when they started MaMo over Baynes because of POINTZ!
or great let's play Kemba more minutes because of POINTZ!

years later it devolved into 2BIGZ
Turns out Radsoxfan was correct (never doubt a doctor's memory). According to SOSH search engine, the earliest reference to "pointz" was lovegtm here: January 2020 General NBA Game Thread | Sons of Sam Horn
 

benhogan

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Well, given that it's a decent sample size now (17 games for Dallas, 14 for Boston), worth posting the On-Court +/- per 100s for the guys, >=200' played:

+16.6 Lively
+15.9 Horford

(3) Lively might be, if anything, underrated by most of us here. And after denying the Jones/Washington corner 3s, figuring out a way to neutralize Lively might be Mazzulla's #2 priority. He doesn't start, but he splits time about 50-50 with Gafford and is in for a lot of crunch time, and his athleticism would probably trouble our bigs somewhat.
Derrick Lively has been a revelation in the playoffs. BUT a lot of the things he does well, like protect the lane/rim & dunk when teams double Luka/Ky will be limited with Boston in drop on D & 5-wide on O
 

tims4wins

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Luka hasn't beaten the Celtics since 2022
Kyrie hasn't since 2021!

Last 6 games since he beat them:

3/1/24: 9-23, 1-7, 19 points, -15
1/22/24: 9-20, 3-7, 23 points, +0
2/1/23: 9-18, 1-7, 20 points, -31
1/12/23: 9-24, 3-11, 24 points, -11
12/4/22: 7-21, 1-5, 18 points, -16
3/6/22: 8-18, 2-6, 19 points, -5
Total: 51-124 (41.1%), 11-43 (25.6%), 20.5 ppg, -78 (-13.0/game)
 
Last edited:

the moops

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Another point of in Celtics favor in this series is that I think the Celtics have the coaching advantage here with Mazzulla over Kidd. I feel like this was a real downfall last year against Spoelstra in the ECF.
I am unsure of this, and I am completely surprised that I am even typing those words. Jason Kidd has been perhaps the best playoff coach this season, IMO
 

the moops

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Derrick Lively has been a revelation in the playoffs. BUT a lot of the things he does well, like protect the lane/rim & dunk when teams double Luka/Ky will be limited with Boston in drop on D & 5-wide on O
Lively has become one of my favorite personalities. Dude seems to have his shit together and is funny as all hell
 

PedroKsBambino

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The HOF discussion is so dumb. The Lakers had 2 and won a single game. So?
It's hard to imagine a less useful way to analyze this series than guessing at who might make the Hall of Fame, frankly. Not only is there no real correlation between those things, eventually getting into the Hall of Fame not really all that instructive about the players abilities RIGHT NOW. Plus it's also essentially impossible to know what will happen to a bunch of these guys in the future.

Going to be a long stretch until actual game 1 is played
 

benhogan

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Lively has become one of my favorite personalities. Dude seems to have his shit together and is funny as all hell
Yea I kinda get a Joakim Noah/Robin Lopez vibe with that hair.

Gafford/Lively have been feasting with vertical space. KP will help massively here since Al may have trouble with that stuff. Then again Rudy couldn't really stop those two. Maybe @InstaFace is right and we should be more concerned
 

SteveF

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They'll put Tatum on Gafford and Lively and turn the 1-5 PnR into a switch. They'll force Dallas to use DJJ or PJ Washington to screen if they want the Celtics' centers involved in the action, presuming the Celtics aren't able to pre-switch those.
That in theory limits the lobs and limits the degree to which the low man needs to sink in off the corner. It also clogs the paint/ruins spacing because where are Lively and Gafford on offense if they aren't the screen setters in a PnR?

I agree with the idea that the key is to limit Kyrie's offensive production. Luka is going to score his. Hopefully you make him a bit less efficient than Minnesota was generally able to, but he's going to be getting the triple doubles. Just try to limit everyone else.

If things are going well, the Celtics will play the Mavs out of the drop and force them to start switching. Porzingis really is crucial here. Dropping is obviously terrible against popping bigs, and I think that's probably why Kidd stopped playing Gafford in that March game. Gafford seemed superficially fine, but he can't switch and if the Celtics were going to turn the 1-5 PnR into a switch, Gafford wasn't going to be doing much on offense either. Kidd went to a Lively/Kleber center roation and more switching, and I suspect that's where Dallas ends up in this series. Porzingis had some postups on Kyrie and Luka that went pretty well in that game as a result of switches.

Porzingis is really important in this series. Hopefully he can play somewhat near 100%.

Edit: A few other observations from that game in March:

Kyrie was definitely bullied and I don't see him holding up at all well against Tatum and Brown. This should be obvious given the sizes of the players involved, but some non-stupid media members have suggested Kyrie might hold up OK and I don't see it.
Josh Green also looked physically overmatched against Brown and Tatum, which was more of a surprise.
 

lovegtm

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They'll put Tatum on Gafford and Lively and turn the 1-5 PnR into a switch. They'll force Dallas to use DJJ or PJ Washington to screen if they want the Celtics' centers involved in the action, presuming the Celtics aren't able to pre-switch those.
That in theory limits the lobs and limits the degree to which the low man needs to sink in off the corner. It also clogs the paint/ruins spacing because where are Lively and Gafford on offense if they aren't the screen setters in a PnR?

I agree with the idea that the key is to limit Kyrie's offensive production. Luka is going to score his. Hopefully you make him a bit less efficient than Minnesota was generally able to, but he's going to be getting the triple doubles. Just try to limit everyone else.

If things are going well, the Celtics will play the Mavs out of the drop and force them to start switching. Porzingis really is crucial here. Dropping is obviously terrible against popping bigs, and I think that's probably why Kidd stopped playing Gafford in that March game. Gafford seemed superficially fine, but he can't switch and if the Celtics were going to turn the 1-5 PnR into a switch, Gafford wasn't going to be doing much on offense either. Kidd went to a Lively/Kleber center roation and more switching, and I suspect that's where Dallas ends up in this series. Porzingis had some postups on Kyrie and Luka that went pretty well in that game as a result of switches.

Porzingis is really important in this series. Hopefully he can play somewhat near 100%.

Edit: A few other observations from that game in March:

Kyrie was definitely bullied and I don't see him holding up at all well against Tatum and Brown. This should be obvious given the sizes of the players involved, but some non-stupid media members have suggested Kyrie might hold up OK and I don't see it.
Josh Green also looked physically overmatched against Brown and Tatum, which was more of a surprise.
One thing Tatum and Brown have both gotten really good at is turning decent-but-slightly-undersized-defenders-who-usually-hold-up-against-wings into mismatches. That really opens up a lot of options.

Agree that Boston will put the center on DJJ/PJ. Indiana was able to counter that by doing endless rescreening, movement, improvisation, and roleplayers hitting every midrange jumper, but that's not as much in Dallas' DNA. Could be tricky for them to adjust offensively. One counter is just to accept the 1-4 switching and let Luka toggle into iso'ing DWhite and Jrue, which he's had some success with.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's hard to imagine a less useful way to analyze this series than guessing at who might make the Hall of Fame, frankly. Not only is there no real correlation between those things, eventually getting into the Hall of Fame not really all that instructive about the players abilities RIGHT NOW. Plus it's also essentially impossible to know what will happen to a bunch of these guys in the future.

Going to be a long stretch until actual game 1 is played
LAC had FOUR future hall of famers.

But seriously, maybe the only interesting question that is coming out of this line of discussion is whether Jrue makes the HOF if he wins another championship. He's definitely lacking in individual honors.
 

SteveF

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let Luka toggle into iso'ing DWhite and Jrue, which he's had some success with.
Yeah. Turning the 1-5 PnR into a switch isn't a solution. Luka will just find something else, like the postups/isos on smaller players. Mazzulla should have Pritchard ready to sub in every time Luka subs out. Luka hunted Pritchard in that March game and it wasn't pretty. But it does start forcing Luka to do more and more of the heavy lifting and marginalizes some of the other Dallas players on offense.
 

Red Averages

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Playing with pace is an advantage and the built in schedule means they should be able to execute it. Just can’t see the Celtics shooting 35% or worse with the quality looks they should be able to get, and I don’t see them losing if they shoot above that.
 

snowmanny

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LAC had FOUR future hall of famers.

But seriously, maybe the only interesting question that is coming out of this line of discussion is whether Jrue makes the HOF if he wins another championship. He's definitely lacking in individual honors.
And another Olympics gold. Win both and in, IMO
 

benhogan

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With 2 days off between most games, I'm expecting rotations to shorten. There should be zero red meat (PP) for Luka to hunt.

We may see more Sam than Payton.
 

BaseballJones

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The HOF discussion is so dumb. The Lakers had 2 and won a single game. So?
The point, T4W, isn't about the Hall of Fame really. That's just a reference point. Lots of times the team with the best player - who many think is Luka - is the team that wins a series, even if the supporting cast isn't great. And they not only have Luka - they have Kyrie, who's an elite player too. (if Al makes the HOF it's because he's been solid for soooo long, not because at his best he was anywhere remotely near as good as Tatum, Brown, Kyrie, or Luka...and of course he isn't close to his prime now)

I know it's harder to really follow the whole discussion than it is to react to a specific post or two. I fall into that trap sometimes too.
 

tims4wins

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The point, T4W, isn't about the Hall of Fame really. That's just a reference point. Lots of times the team with the best player - who many think is Luka - is the team that wins a series, even if the supporting cast isn't great. And they not only have Luka - they have Kyrie, who's an elite player too. (if Al makes the HOF it's because he's been solid for soooo long, not because at his best he was anywhere remotely near as good as Tatum, Brown, Kyrie, or Luka...and of course he isn't close to his prime now)

I know it's harder to really follow the whole discussion than it is to react to a specific post or two. I fall into that trap sometimes too.
We all agree that Luka, Tatum, Kyrie, and JB are the top 4 players in the series, basically in whatever order you want to place them. Then, the Celts have the next 3-4 best players. The concept of best player wins is dated. Is Edwards better than Jokic? Everyone says Embiid > anyone on the Celts, he's never beaten the Celts in a playoff series. Etc. The Celts have similar great players as the Mavs; and they have (edit: MANY) more good players. Which is why they won more games, had a higher regular season net rating, and have a higher postseason net rating.

The more I think on this, the more I love the Celts chances. It's going to be a long week leading up, but this is going to be a 4 or 5 game series.
 

lovegtm

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We all agree that Luka, Tatum, Kyrie, and JB are the top 4 players in the series, basically in whatever order you want to place them. Then, the Celts have the next 3-4 best players. The concept of best player wins is dated. Is Edwards better than Jokic? Everyone says Embiid > anyone on the Celts, he's never beaten the Celts in a playoff series. Etc. The Celts have similar great players as the Mavs; and they have (edit: MANY) more good players. Which is why they won more games, had a higher regular season net rating, and have a higher postseason net rating.

The more I think on this, the more I love the Celts chances. It's going to be a long week leading up, but this is going to be a 4 or 5 game series.
I think LeBron really skewed the "best player wins" concept, when he was winning and being super-competitive in series he had no business doing so in, for a long time.

All the other best players seem to win or lose based on normal factors like matchups and how good their team is.
 

radsoxfan

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I think LeBron really skewed the "best player wins" concept, when he was winning and being super-competitive in series he had no business doing so in, for a long time.

All the other best players seem to win or lose based on normal factors like matchups and how good their team is.
Agreed. Prime Lebron was different than just having a top 5 superstar. In a hypothetical matchup with a Tatum or Luka led team, Prime Lebron still has a HUGE advantage. Hence his ability to drag a mediocre roster to the Finals all the time. Tatum and Luka are great, but they are not Prime Lebron.

Also, rotations shorten and stars play more minutes, increasing their importance. But the main effect is on the 7-10th men (who will play little or not at all), not the other starters like White, Jrue, and KP. Those guys will still play a ton and have a major impact on deciding the series.

LBJ.png
 

brendan f

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Do they have the Nuggets' odds going into last year's finals against Miami? I'd be surprised if they were better.
They were about the same, 73% but Pelton had Denver favored more at 89%. His system has been higher on Dallas than most.
With 2 days off between most games, I'm expecting rotations to shorten. There should be zero red meat (PP) for Luka to hunt.
Agreed. And with the rest they've had going into the final, wouldn't be surprised if both Pritchard and Hauser play fewer than five mins
 

pjheff

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Agreed. And with the rest they've had going into the final, wouldn't be surprised if both Pritchard and Hauser play fewer than five mins
The key is Porzingis. If he is able to play minutes and be effective, then Hauser and Pritchard will be deployed strategically, based on Dallas’ rest patterns, and face short leashes.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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So roughly a third of us - about 110 votes - fully expect this series to be over in five or less. I wonder if that tracks beyond our little backwater?

Beyond that the Cs will be underperforming for significant number of fans even if they win in seven.

For the record, I hope the <five contingent is right but if not the media probably won't need much to stoke this fanbase if the Mavs win a game or two early on.

83545
 

Batman Likes The Sox

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I know what the outside world is saying about the finals even though I try to ignore it because it's so often uninformed, unlike SoSH, but I'd love to hear more from the 5% or so of voters who think the Mavericks are taking this.

I've said many times that I'm no expert but I think if Indiana had made the finals (maybe with fewer injuries) they'd have beaten either Dallas or Minnesota. Variance occurs and if these finals are played 100 times I could see a handful of possibilities where Dallas wins. I just can't see a clear path to victory for the Mavericks, so I'd genuinely like to hear more about why people voted that way.

Are you just gambling on the series and hoping the longer odds pay out?
 

Jakarta

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They'll put Tatum on Gafford and Lively and turn the 1-5 PnR into a switch. They'll force Dallas to use DJJ or PJ Washington to screen if they want the Celtics' centers involved in the action, presuming the Celtics aren't able to pre-switch those.
That in theory limits the lobs and limits the degree to which the low man needs to sink in off the corner. It also clogs the paint/ruins spacing because where are Lively and Gafford on offense if they aren't the screen setters in a PnR?

I agree with the idea that the key is to limit Kyrie's offensive production. Luka is going to score his. Hopefully you make him a bit less efficient than Minnesota was generally able to, but he's going to be getting the triple doubles. Just try to limit everyone else.

If things are going well, the Celtics will play the Mavs out of the drop and force them to start switching. Porzingis really is crucial here. Dropping is obviously terrible against popping bigs, and I think that's probably why Kidd stopped playing Gafford in that March game. Gafford seemed superficially fine, but he can't switch and if the Celtics were going to turn the 1-5 PnR into a switch, Gafford wasn't going to be doing much on offense either. Kidd went to a Lively/Kleber center roation and more switching, and I suspect that's where Dallas ends up in this series. Porzingis had some postups on Kyrie and Luka that went pretty well in that game as a result of switches.

Porzingis is really important in this series. Hopefully he can play somewhat near 100%.

Edit: A few other observations from that game in March:

Kyrie was definitely bullied and I don't see him holding up at all well against Tatum and Brown. This should be obvious given the sizes of the players involved, but some non-stupid media members have suggested Kyrie might hold up OK and I don't see it.
Josh Green also looked physically overmatched against Brown and Tatum, which was more of a surprise.
Agree with all of this. I think KP and Al will start off guarding DJJ. Switch all the screens except with DJJ which I would trap and force him to be a playmaker. As you mention it also clogs the lane, so maybe Dallas counters with more Kleiber. Cs D is generally at its best when they have high pickup points and lots of ball pressure. This seems like a good strategy against Dallas to force someone else other than Luka or Kyrie to make a play.

Offensively the Celtics are so much more dynamic than the Wolves. Everyone they play (except for Luke) is an offensive threat which means the Mavs are going to be in rotation and scrambling a lot more. Luka is not going to be able to park himself in the dunker spot on D which should help to tire him out. Plus the bigs are floor spacers. Absent cold shooting, and/or a VERY slow pace, the Cs are going to score 110+ every game.

C’s in 5.
 

teddykgb

Member
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Jul 16, 2005
11,573
Chelmsford, MA
I know what the outside world is saying about the finals even though I try to ignore it because it's so often uninformed, unlike SoSH, but I'd love to hear more from the 5% or so of voters who think the Mavericks are taking this.

I've said many times that I'm no expert but I think if Indiana had made the finals (maybe with fewer injuries) they'd have beaten either Dallas or Minnesota. Variance occurs and if these finals are played 100 times I could see a handful of possibilities where Dallas wins. I just can't see a clear path to victory for the Mavericks, so I'd genuinely like to hear more about why people voted that way.

Are you just gambling on the series and hoping the longer odds pay out?
Im one of these folks so I’ll lay my case out before it starts.

Fundamentally, as I said in a GT last week I just don’t trust this team. They played 5,5, and 4 games to get here this year so there’s very little to complain about and I know how incredibly positive everyone here is but I think good teams can disrupt what they want to do offensively and they have only sparingly shown that they can knuckle down and play phenomenal defense for long periods. For me, they’re like a math problem personified as a basketball team where everyone is good to great and they rely on that being good enough over 48 minutes. Which is exceptional when you’re playing teams missing their star players and who are just inferior but Dallas is coming in with their talent more or less intact and I think the Celtics are going to have to adjust. Overall, they just can be a bit sloppy and while that didn’t bite them against Indiana or Cleveland those were “closer” than they should have been, imo, and now they face a step up. This is maybe a long winded way of saying something that is consistently mocked around here but I just don’t trust them to execute at a very high level for 48 minutes for 7 games and dropping a game or 2 may be the difference.

More specific to this series, I think we have struggled to contain guards more than one would expect with the defensive reputation of our guards but the 1/5 screen with Horford sagging has been a problem area and Dallas has two guys who should be able to really work that. I don’t believe Porzingis will be able to play a normal load and will likely be slower than usual. They mostly had him in drop all regular season anyway. I think Dallas will stagger minutes for Irving and Luka and basically can get that attack plan on any trip down the floor.

Secondly, Hauser has turned into a pumpkin and Pritchard is probably unplayable against these guards for anything but the smallest stretches so secondary scoring may be a concern. They got away with this against Indiana but these playoff series usually require a guy or two from a bench to really step up and unless Hauser re-finds his shot this week I don’t even know who that might be for the Celtics. I felt they slipped into some bad habits against Indiana at times and really focused on iso ball but Indiana couldn’t put enough on them offensively to have that snowball on them the way it sometimes does. We are far more likely to see Dallas scoring in bunches and when the Cs slow down and the 3s aren’t falling they really grind their offense and I could see a game or two getting away this way.

Finally, I saw a post above about how we might defend them better at the run but it doesn’t map for me. Gobert is as good as there is in this league at rim protection and they free him up to do it. The Porzingis injury has left us really thin at that position and while we have survived it in the smaller tests thus far it was one position we really didn’t have depth in. If Dallas is as good as they seem they’re going to hurt us there.


Of course, the Cs are very very good and I think they’ve improved tremendously on some things this year. Turnovers were such a massive problem the last few years and they’ve really cleaned that up. I’m not typing the above to suggest that we have no chance or don’t belong or anything like that. I really respect what Dallas did to get through the west and didn’t expect them to handle a Wolves team that dispatched Denver. I think it’s really hard for us to contextualize how good this Dallas team is because everyone here is so stat driven and they were not good until mid season so everything gets dragged down but I think that Minnesota team was the real deal and they just brushed them aside.

Basically I think they’re up for 7 really close battles and I just think this team can still be sloppy at the little details that often make champions. I’m probably higher on Dallas than most and lower on us than most so I have it going the distance and my pessimism about the devil I know wins
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
20,469
The point, T4W, isn't about the Hall of Fame really. That's just a reference point. Lots of times the team with the best player - who many think is Luka - is the team that wins a series, even if the supporting cast isn't great. And they not only have Luka - they have Kyrie, who's an elite player too. (if Al makes the HOF it's because he's been solid for soooo long, not because at his best he was anywhere remotely near as good as Tatum, Brown, Kyrie, or Luka...and of course he isn't close to his prime now)

I know it's harder to really follow the whole discussion than it is to react to a specific post or two. I fall into that trap sometimes too.
What's funny about the bolded is that the advanced stats clearly disagree with the "many". The "best player on the court" matters far more if one is head and shoulders above the others; that is decidedly not the case when it comes to Luka and Tatum.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
14,857
Secondly, Hauser has turned into a pumpkin and Pritchard is probably unplayable against these guards for anything but the smallest stretches so secondary scoring may be a concern.
I think Pritchard is playable...of course you don't want him on Luka but he is OK on Kyrie or some of their wings.

I also think Hauser will be better, he has to be. I don't expect him to play major minutes but I think he will be fine, as good or better than any of the bench guys they put out there.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
32,360
They were about the same, 73% but Pelton had Denver favored more at 89%. His system has been higher on Dallas than most.

Agreed. And with the rest they've had going into the final, wouldn't be surprised if both Pritchard and Hauser play fewer than five mins
I don’t think it’s so much of rest bc with the long layoff you’re probably going to need more min than normal for a Finals game as players won’t have their conditioning that first game (legs and wind)….but this could be a tough series for Pritchard to matchup in. I’ve seen Doncic manipulate that matchup and it isn’t pretty.