NBA playoffs 2018

BaseballJones

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Let's be honest. Jordan won 6 titles, and would have won 8 in a row, in a league that featured these Hall of Famers all playing at a very high level:

Stockton
Malone
Barkley
Olajuwon
Drexler
Payton
Mutombo
Rodman (yes he won three with the Bulls, but he was also great when he wasn't on the Bulls)
Robinson
Ewing
Wilkins
Dumars
Thomas

Jordan had to get through a lot of great players and some really good teams, year in and year out. Yes he had Pippen, another all-time great player, and also Rodman later on. But Magic had Kareem and Worthy, Bird had McHale and Parish, Robinson had Duncan, Kobe had Shaq, KG had Allen and Pierce, Olajuwon had Drexler. LeBron won championships with future HOFer Wade, another guy who *probably* will make the HOF in Bosh, and then won one in Cleveland with Love and Irving, two guys who might not make the HOF (but they might), but who at minimum were high level all-stars.

Really, if he hadn't retired, Jordan would have won 8 titles in a row. I guess things could have happened, but I think 8 in a row was quite likely.
 

BigSoxFan

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Let's be honest. Jordan won 6 titles, and would have won 8 in a row, in a league that featured these Hall of Famers all playing at a very high level:

Stockton
Malone
Barkley
Olajuwon
Drexler
Payton
Mutombo
Rodman (yes he won three with the Bulls, but he was also great when he wasn't on the Bulls)
Robinson
Ewing
Wilkins
Dumars
Thomas

Jordan had to get through a lot of great players and some really good teams, year in and year out. Yes he had Pippen, another all-time great player, and also Rodman later on. But Magic had Kareem and Worthy, Bird had McHale and Parish, Robinson had Duncan, Kobe had Shaq, KG had Allen and Pierce, Olajuwon had Drexler. LeBron won championships with future HOFer Wade, another guy who *probably* will make the HOF in Bosh, and then won one in Cleveland with Love and Irving, two guys who might not make the HOF (but they might), but who at minimum were high level all-stars.

Really, if he hadn't retired, Jordan would have won 8 titles in a row. I guess things could have happened, but I think 8 in a row was quite likely.
I actually think he would have won 9 if he came back for the 1998-1999 season. That Spurs team wasn’t beating the Bulls. I think the 2000 Lakers could have potentially knocked the Bulls off.
 

cheech13

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So quick? He has played 15 seasons and been the best player on the planet in 2/3 of them, yet a large majority have him behind Jordan, and a sizeable chunk has him behind a couple others. It has taken quite some time for him to get himself into the conversation as GOAT
It's not just Jordan, I think most casual NBA fans would have him significantly behind Kobe as well, which is just baffling to me.
 

Sam Ray Not

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So quick? He has played 15 seasons and been the best player on the planet in 2/3 of them, yet a large majority have him behind Jordan, and a sizeable chunk has him behind a couple others. It has taken quite some time for him to get himself into the conversation as GOAT
All true, but it is kinda silly — or at least very game-thready — to make the LeBron=GOAT claim right after he hits a buzzer beater (in a first-round non-closeout Game 5 against a mediocre team that they were supposed to beat handily). If they call goaltending on the Oladipo shot and the buzzer-beater clangs, is he not the GOAT? Pretty sure we're at least not having the conversation, which is fine with me given how often the convo comes up, and how familiar all the arguments pro and con are.

Fwiw, I'm agnostic on the question — easy to make a case either way. In my heart I'll always be Team Jordan since I found him just so much more beautiful to watch, plus so mysterious, badass, and cool, like Batman or Racer X, where LeBron is such a dork a lot of the time. But yeah, in pure "aggregate career impact on wins" terms, the practical case for LeBron as GOAT is increasingly hard to deny. Plus, for people who care about such things, LeBron gets points that MJ left on the table for being (dorkiness and PED-use notwithstanding) a generally admirable person who speaks out for social justice, etc.

But just in terms of the aesthetic pleasure of watching them play — which is ultimately why we're all in here — it'll always be MJ for me, hands down.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Let's be honest. Jordan won 6 titles, and would have won 8 in a row, in a league that featured these Hall of Famers all playing at a very high level:

Stockton
Malone
Barkley
Olajuwon
Drexler
Payton
Mutombo
Rodman (yes he won three with the Bulls, but he was also great when he wasn't on the Bulls)
Robinson
Ewing
Wilkins
Dumars
Thomas

Jordan had to get through a lot of great players and some really good teams, year in and year out. Yes he had Pippen, another all-time great player, and also Rodman later on. But Magic had Kareem and Worthy, Bird had McHale and Parish, Robinson had Duncan, Kobe had Shaq, KG had Allen and Pierce, Olajuwon had Drexler. LeBron won championships with future HOFer Wade, another guy who *probably* will make the HOF in Bosh, and then won one in Cleveland with Love and Irving, two guys who might not make the HOF (but they might), but who at minimum were high level all-stars.

Really, if he hadn't retired, Jordan would have won 8 titles in a row. I guess things could have happened, but I think 8 in a row was quite likely.
While there were a lot of great players back then, the thing that was different in that era is that they really weren't aggregated. I mean other than Stockton and Malone, did any other team of that era have 2 of the top 10 players on the same team?

One thing to say in the MJ vs LBJ debate. None of MJ's teams that went to the finals were ever heavy underdogs (there's question as to whether the Bulls were a favorite or underdog in 1991, 1993, and 1998, and it appears that no one on the internet has gone to the actual papers of that time to confirm even though the question has been asked).
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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All true, but it is kinda silly — or at least very game-thready — to make the LeBron=GOAT claim right after he hits a buzzer beater (in a first-round non-closeout Game 5 against a mediocre team that they were supposed to beat handily). If they call goaltending on the Oladipo shot and the buzzer-beater clangs, is he not the GOAT? Pretty sure we're at least not having the conversation, which is fine with me given how often the convo comes up, and how familiar all the arguments pro and con are.

Fwiw, I'm agnostic on the question — easy to make a case either way. In my heart I'll always be Team Jordan since I found him just so much more beautiful to watch, plus so mysterious, badass, and cool, like Batman or Racer X, where LeBron is such a dork a lot of the time. But yeah, in pure "aggregate career impact on wins" terms, the practical case for LeBron as GOAT is increasingly hard to deny. Plus, for people who care about such things, LeBron gets points that MJ left on the table for being (dorkiness and PED-use notwithstanding) a generally admirable person who speaks out for social justice, etc.

But just in terms of the aesthetic pleasure of watching them play — which is ultimately why we're all in here — it'll always be MJ for me, hands down.
To be clear, I posted that he was my GOAT a few years ago (after a certain finals win that shall not be named) and simply reiterated it last night.

All fair points about Jordan made upthread - though you cannot give credit for theoretical results imho. Jordan had to step away from a sport where he was king, for whatever reasons, for a year and then he retired for the first time. I agree that those choices likely cost him titles but they, in fact, happened.

In any event, I fully get the argument for Jordan but I think Lebron has had to compete in an age of, if not superior talent, much better conditioning and far better coaching and team construction. Setting aside the rule changes because I think both players would thrive in either era, my preference for LeBron comes down to his versatility and sustained level of excellence. Again, your results may vary.
 

The Social Chair

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Let's be honest. Jordan won 6 titles, and would have won 8 in a row, in a league that featured these Hall of Famers all playing at a very high level:

Stockton
Malone
Barkley
Olajuwon
Drexler
Payton
Mutombo
Rodman (yes he won three with the Bulls, but he was also great when he wasn't on the Bulls)
Robinson
Ewing
Wilkins
Dumars
Thomas

Jordan had to get through a lot of great players and some really good teams, year in and year out. Yes he had Pippen, another all-time great player, and also Rodman later on. But Magic had Kareem and Worthy, Bird had McHale and Parish, Robinson had Duncan, Kobe had Shaq, KG had Allen and Pierce, Olajuwon had Drexler. LeBron won championships with future HOFer Wade, another guy who *probably* will make the HOF in Bosh, and then won one in Cleveland with Love and Irving, two guys who might not make the HOF (but they might), but who at minimum were high level all-stars.

Really, if he hadn't retired, Jordan would have won 8 titles in a row. I guess things could have happened, but I think 8 in a row was quite likely.
The Warriors and Spurs teams that Lebron beat are so much better than any team Jordan played in the finals.
 

Sam Ray Not

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To be clear, I posted that he was my GOAT a few years ago (after a certain finals win that shall not be named) and simply reiterated it last night.
Fair. Plus, I said it was game-thready, and this is, last I checked, the playoff game thread. One that you created, no less!

Only quibble I have with one prong of your argument is that "much better conditioning" also applies to LeBron himself. One wonders how much better Jordan might have been, and how much better career longevity he might have enjoyed, if he had had access from early in his career to the same conditioning and, er, nutrition experts that LeBron has access to, and the same religious devotion to taking care of his body.

But then, the fact that Jordan did what he did while staying out till all hours, drinking, smoking, gambling, carousing etc. is part of what made him such a cool, mysterious rock star, and what makes LeBron look like such a new-age dork by comparison.

Actually pretty analogous to Ruth v. Bonds, now that I think of it.
 

jon abbey

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The Warriors and Spurs teams that Lebron beat are so much better than any team Jordan played in the finals.
But he had to go through loaded Pacers and Knicks teams every year in the East, LeBron has had a cakewalk through the East since coming back to CLE.
 

TheRooster

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It's not just Jordan, I think most casual NBA fans would have him significantly behind Kobe as well, which is just baffling to me.
I disagree. Perhaps Kobe has better name recognition among non-fans or something due to his LA base?

FWIW, I don't have any affection for LeBron, but I've never seen anyone who consistently does so many things at such a high level.
 

Reverend

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While there were a lot of great players back then, the thing that was different in that era is that they really weren't aggregated. I mean other than Stockton and Malone, did any other team of that era have 2 of the top 10 players on the same team?
Depends. Where do you stand in the Rodman debates?
 

Reverend

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Titans : Gods : Men :: Jordan : Lebron : Kobe

Kobe can be Hercules. But when I was reading a post out of context above with Jordan and Kobe, I couldn't figure out who the unnamed person was and then laughed when I saw it was James. I mean, I hadn't even thought to compare him in a conversation with Kobe so my mind went blank. By the same token, Jordan invented the gig we're talking about.

I think they are rankable, but also incommensurate--I had to go back 2,000+ years to find my model of comparison!
 

Sam Ray Not

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One other note, fwiw: LeBron is really, really close to having just one career championship. 2013 and 2016 were both coin-flips in the final minute — you can't say the same about any of Jordan's six rings, nor can you say that LeBron was all that close to winning a ring in any of the eleven seasons in which he failed to do so. And both those coin flips were decided by stone-cold shots by other players (Ray and Kyrie).

Heck, even his one nominally no-doubter championship year (2012), the Celtics had him down 3-2 in the ECF (though of course it was his 100% transcendence that dug them out of that hole).

I think the case for LeBron as GOAT is really strong either way, just adding a bit of context to the "three rings" part of his case, mostly to bust his chops. :)
 

wonderland

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Jordan had some good nutrition experts too. I don’t think Sosa was the only guy pushing boundaries in Chicago in the mid to late 90s.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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And those are just the sub par coaches he won championships with. Nevermind the Paul Silas and Mike Brown teams he would carry to 50 win seasons every year.
 

cheech13

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One other note, fwiw: LeBron is really, really close to having just one career championship. 2013 and 2016 were both coin-flips in the final minute — you can't say the same about any of Jordan's six rings, nor can you say that LeBron was all that close to winning a ring in any of the eleven seasons in which he failed to do so. And both those coin flips were decided by stone-cold shots by other players (Ray and Kyrie).

Heck, even his one nominally no-doubter championship year (2012), the Celtics had him down 3-2 in the ECF (though of course it was his 100% transcendence that dug them out of that hole).

I think the case for LeBron as GOAT is really strong either way, just adding a bit of context to the "three rings" part of his case, mostly to bust his chops. :)
I love Michael Jordan and always expected him to win everything, but you don't think that '93 and '98 were coin flips? The Bulls won both series in game 6 via a last second shot, and would have faced Game 7 on the road had they not won.
 

cheech13

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I disagree. Perhaps Kobe has better name recognition among non-fans or something due to his LA base?

FWIW, I don't have any affection for LeBron, but I've never seen anyone who consistently does so many things at such a high level.
Maybe. To give context I live on the West Coast (not LA) and am in my mid-30s. In the typical late night bar debates Kobe's name comes up very quickly when you start talking about best ever. Perhaps that conversation is different based on age and geography.

Also I do know plenty of LA fans and they're ready to fight you on the spot if you suggest Lebron is better than Kobe.
 

BaseballJones

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While there were a lot of great players back then, the thing that was different in that era is that they really weren't aggregated. I mean other than Stockton and Malone, did any other team of that era have 2 of the top 10 players on the same team?

One thing to say in the MJ vs LBJ debate. None of MJ's teams that went to the finals were ever heavy underdogs (there's question as to whether the Bulls were a favorite or underdog in 1991, 1993, and 1998, and it appears that no one on the internet has gone to the actual papers of that time to confirm even though the question has been asked).
Of course Utah had Stockton and Malone.

Houston had Olajuwon and Drexler. Olajuwon in his prime, and Drexler maybe not quite but still very much an all-star level player.

Detroit had Dumars and Thomas. Granted, they were waning, but still all-stars.

Seattle had prime Gary Payton, along with prime Kemp and all-star level Schrempf and were a 64 win team.

Phoenix had prime Barkley as well as all-star Kevin Johnson and Majerle, a 3-time all-star.

San Antonio had Robinson and Elliot, who was a 2-time all-star. And then at the very end of Jordan's run, San Antonio added Duncan.

So there were some great teams and great players that Chicago had to go through, and Jordan went through them all.

The Warriors and Spurs teams that Lebron beat are so much better than any team Jordan played in the finals.
This is probably true. Good point.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Maybe. To give context I live on the West Coast (not LA) and am in my mid-30s. In the typical late night bar debates Kobe's name comes up very quickly when you start talking about best ever. Perhaps that conversation is different based on age and geography.

Also I do know plenty of LA fans and they're ready to fight you on the spot if you suggest Lebron is better than Kobe.
He’s not even the best LAKER of all time IMO. That is Magic Johnson.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I love Michael Jordan and always expected him to win everything, but you don't think that '93 and '98 were coin flips? The Bulls won both series in game 6 via a last second shot, and would have faced Game 7 on the road had they not won.
I think it's a qualitatively different thing when you're up 3-2. The Bulls were never thisclose to losing a series. There's no way to prove a counterfactual, but my general sense is that in the alt. universes where the Bulls dropped those two Game 6s, prime Jordan would have wrecked those teams on their home floor, just as LeBron did to the Celtics in 2012.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think it's a qualitatively different thing when you're up 3-2. The Bulls were never thisclose to losing a series. There's no way to prove a counterfactual, but my general sense is that in the alt. universes where the Bulls dropped those two Game 6s, prime Jordan would have wrecked those teams on their home floor, just as LeBron to the Celtics in 2012.
Too soon
 

Sam Ray Not

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How did Kobe get into this conversation?? LeBron and Jordan were the best players in the NBA every season that they were healthy and in their primes. Kobe was never the best player in the league, and in his 20 seasons was probably a top 5 player only two or three times.

I feel like Kobe's closer to a rich man's Carmelo Anthony than to a poor man's MJ or LeBron (and most RAPM measures I've seen agree).
 

Kliq

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Kobe isn't part of the discussion to me. In my opinion and I could elaborate on this a lot further, there are four acceptable answers for the GOAT discussion:

Jordan: The best singular basketball player in history; destroyed every foe in his path and never failed to win a ring when his team had equal or greater talent than his opponents. The only possible exception is the '95 loss to Orlando, and that wasn't a particularly loaded Bulls team with MJ coming back from baseball mid-season and running into an Orlando team that featured an all-world Center that could exploit Chicago's biggest weakness (size inside). The best pure scorer in NBA except for Wilt; an underrated passer, one of the best defensive guards of all-time (one of four guards to ever win DPOY) and threw up the sickest statistical seasons since the merger.

Russell: Greatest winner of all-time; like Jordan never failed to win a championship when he had equal or superior talent to his opponents. Only lost playoff series to a loaded Hawks team in his second season when he hurt his ankle, and to a Philadelphia juggernaut in '67. Also an incredible college player who finished his career with two straight championships and on a 55 game winning streak. I think the only reason Russell isn't automatically agreed upon as the GOAT is that he played in a very different era where it is hard to take his accomplishments that seriously in comparison to modern players. Oddly enough that doesn't stop people from claiming that Babe Ruth or Pele are the GOAT's in their respective sports.

Kareem: Won just as much as Jordan and played at a high level for an insane period of time; at times was just as dominant as Wilt or Russell but played in a more modern era. Also is the undisputed best college player of all-time; which should probably count for something. NBA players from the 70s and 80s swear he is the best to ever play. Probably had the best basketball playing CAREER of all-time.

LeBron: Not quite there yet imo. Tremendous durability and still churning out vintage seasons in his 30s; capable of dominance on both ends; great passer and a very unselfish player. Has been the best player in basketball for a decade and carried some crappy teams far into the playoffs; shrewdly abandoned teams when he sensed he could no longer win a title. Wins the argument if you believe basketball players are inherently better than they were during any other period of time; which they probably are; although I don't think the GOAT argument is that simple.

In regards to Jordan vs LeBron; LeBron's 2011 Finals Performance is a real black mark on his resume. Not only did a team with LeBron, plus two HOF players in their prime flanking him, lose to a team of just-past-his-prime Dirk, ancient Jason Kidd, Tyson Chandler and Jason Terry; but LeBron played very poorly, averaging 17-7-6 for the series including an epic pants shitting in Game Four, when he scored 8 points in a Miami loss that swung the momentum of the series in Dallas' favor. I find it really hard to believe Jordan would have played a series in his prime that poorly. Yeah LeBron has made up for that performance by regularly kicking ass in the playoffs and winning three rings; and that might seem like a nitpick, but when you are talking about the best basketball player who ever lived, small pieces are going to end up being the difference.
 

djbayko

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Of course Utah had Stockton and Malone.

Houston had Olajuwon and Drexler. Olajuwon in his prime, and Drexler maybe not quite but still very much an all-star level player.

Detroit had Dumars and Thomas. Granted, they were waning, but still all-stars.

Seattle had prime Gary Payton, along with prime Kemp and all-star level Schrempf and were a 64 win team.

Phoenix had prime Barkley as well as all-star Kevin Johnson and Majerle, a 3-time all-star.

San Antonio had Robinson and Elliot, who was a 2-time all-star. And then at the very end of Jordan's run, San Antonio added Duncan.

So there were some great teams and great players that Chicago had to go through, and Jordan went through them all.



This is probably true. Good point.
Olajuwon, Drexler, and Barkley for a couple seasons. Not in their primes, but a solid threesome, especially in '96-97.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Also the Lakers had a 24 point lead in game 4 2008
I feel like we don't discuss this one nearly enough. And the Lakers getting the rug pulled out from under them is a topic sure to unite most of us Port Cellar dwellers, regardless of whether we root for the Clippers, Dubs, Blazers, Thunder, Sixers or even the Knicks.

On the Lakers front, Kobe was a very good player but deserves no consideration for GOAT imho. Maybe prison but not GOAT.
 

tims4wins

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I feel like we don't discuss this one nearly enough. And the Lakers getting the rug pulled out from under them is a topic sure to unite most of us Port Cellar dwellers, regardless of whether we root for the Clippers, Dubs, Blazers, Thunder, Sixers or even the Knicks.

On the Lakers front, Kobe was a very good player but deserves no consideration for GOAT imho. Maybe prison but not GOAT.
What made that comeback so crazy was how bad the Celts were on the road that year in the playoffs. 0-3 vs. Atlanta. 0-3 vs. Cleveland. 2-1 vs Detroit. And then 0-1 against the Lakers to that point. So they were 2-8 heading into that game.
 

Gash Prex

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And both should have been reviewed - 2 wrongs don’t make a right (especially since one would actually have put points on the board) - nobody knows how it would have ended

They should have gotten them right and it tarnished the end of the game
 

Marciano490

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Jordan had some good nutrition experts too. I don’t think Sosa was the only guy pushing boundaries in Chicago in the mid to late 90s.
I never get this argument about athletes from the 80s or 90s versus now. There’s nothing new from then to now.
 

Infield Infidel

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Of course Utah had Stockton and Malone.

Houston had Olajuwon and Drexler. Olajuwon in his prime, and Drexler maybe not quite but still very much an all-star level player.

Detroit had Dumars and Thomas. Granted, they were waning, but still all-stars.

Seattle had prime Gary Payton, along with prime Kemp and all-star level Schrempf and were a 64 win team.

Phoenix had prime Barkley as well as all-star Kevin Johnson and Majerle, a 3-time all-star.

San Antonio had Robinson and Elliot, who was a 2-time all-star. And then at the very end of Jordan's run, San Antonio added Duncan.

So there were some great teams and great players that Chicago had to go through, and Jordan went through them all.



This is probably true. Good point.
Olajuwon won his first title without Drexler. The second best player on that team was either Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, or Robert Horry.
 

LondonSox

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I never get this argument about athletes from the 80s or 90s versus now. There’s nothing new from then to now.
Althetes are pretty clearly stronger and faster now as a baseline across sports now and professional training, nutrition etc has improved performance and longevity to some extent.
 

riboflav

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Is this really true? When I look at combine numbers (40s, 3-cone, bench reps, etc.), track numbers, marathon numbers, and so on going back to the 90s, I cannot discern much difference at all. I will say the biggest change in athleticism in basketball has been the ability to shoot, both distance and quickness. This is the most under appreciated area of athleticism by fans. I mean coaches and players get it but fans ignore it.
 

Reverend

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Althetes are pretty clearly stronger and faster now as a baseline across sports now and professional training, nutrition etc has improved performance and longevity to some extent.
I think he's addressing the issue of whether or not there are new drugs in addition to this--so this is more of an "and" rather than a "but".

As in, any perceived improvement isn't because of drugs. Or I'm an idiot. One or the other.
 

Kliq

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If Indiana got even 50 percent out of Oladipo’s normal production in Game 4 or 5 and this series would have been over.
 

Fishy1

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What a horseshit effort. Cavs had no answer for Stephenson-Sabonis pick and roll. That's bad.
 

InstaFace

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The Cavs dont need to play defense during the regular season or the first round. You guys just don't get it.
Year: Lebron regular-season wins (playoff seed) - eastern conference playoffs losses

2008-09: 66 (1) - 4 (all in ECF vs ORL; was 8-0 before then)
2009-10: 61 (1) - 5 (4-1 in first round, 2-4 vs BOS)
2010-11: 58 (2) - 3 (MIA went 4-1 each round)
2011-12: 46-20 (2) - 6 (lost 1, 2, 3 each round, would have lost to BOS in any fair universe timeline)
2012-13: 66 (1) - 4 (0, 1, then 3 to IND in ECF)
2013-14: 54 (2) - 3 (0, 1 and 2, before Da Spurs crushed them in 5)
2014-15: 53 (2) - 2 (both in EC SF vs CHI)
2015-16: 57 (1) - 2 (both in ECF vs TOR, before the epic vs GSW)
2016-17: 51 (2) - 1 (the Avery Bradley game)
2017-18: 50 (4) - 3 so far...