New Britain Rock Cats Moving To Connecticut's Armpit

Traut

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Yeah CCSU and New Britain high will play in a nice yet empty stadium
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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It would be kind of ironic if NBHS started playing their games at New Britain Stadium. I go to a good number of Rock Cat games, and my seat of choice is in the top row of the GA section on the third base side. My little one likes sitting up there and watching foul balls go out of the stadium and into the parking lot. We watch where it rolls, and if no one snags it right away we'll get it later. In any case the old stadium, where NBHS plays, is literally feet away from the new one, and from the top row you can see in the old one. Lots of times when there's a break in the AA action I'll look over and check out some high school game.

I knew right along that there's no chance of an affiliated team coming to New Britski, but I'm hoping against hope that some indy league team gives New Britski a shot. I'd give them a shot. And every time I paid for a ticket I'd face north and flip the bird to the dick weasels who now one the Rock Cats.
 

pmb116

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Growing up in East Hartford, I can tell you that the proposed location of the stadium is not near where the "North End" area is. 99% of the people on this board would not even get out of their car in the North End during the day, let alone night. The location, while probably a shithole, is at least a somewhat safe shithole, during the day anyways.
 

8slim

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I've noticed that the Hartford-New Haven market has been in the top 5 for ratings during the World Cup, and I believe it's done very well in other soccer events...

So why is Hartford spending time and money to lure an already in-state AA baseball team? Why not aim considerably higher and try to get an expansion MLS franchise?
 

Traut

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Harford is actively pursuing a women's soccer franchise to play at Dillon stadium.
 

8slim

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Trautwein's Degree said:
Harford is actively pursuing a women's soccer franchise to play at Dillon stadium.
Interesting.

I believe they're thinking too small, but that's a common complaint I have about my adopted home state.
 

Clears Cleaver

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8slim said:
I've noticed that the Hartford-New Haven market has been in the top 5 for ratings during the World Cup, and I believe it's done very well in other soccer events...

So why is Hartford spending time and money to lure an already in-state AA baseball team? Why not aim considerably higher and try to get an expansion MLS franchise?
 
This is a plan. They would play at the Rent. The baseball stadium is a joke, but somehow I suspect there is a deal that would also fix the XL center. but even that is just dumb
 
If CT was smart, they would be putting all this investment into the state university, which at this point is the only hope for long-term economic recovery in the state. Grow the university and the quality of its student body and that would lead to new business down the road. The state taxes and overall economic condition of CT, led by 100 years of democratic control, has created an environment so hostile to business that the govt has to create HUGE incentives just to keep the existing crappy, no growth industries in place. Pretty soon AET and CI will merge and the proper/casualty biz will have a downturn and then what? oh, Foxwoods is over levered as well. 
 
I think Fairfield county is going to declare its independence and then join the big 10 or ACC
 

czar

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LOL.
 
City officials have backed away from a proposal to bond up to $60 million for a new minor-league stadium north of downtown, saying they will instead seek a private partner to finance much of the project.

In a letter to the city council Friday, Mayor Pedro Segarra formally withdrew the resolution and said he still wants a major redevelopment of the area, including new housing, retail and the 9,000-seat ballpark, but "without placing additional tax burdens on Hartford property owners."
 
Courant.
 
Also of note in Courant story is that city projects 20,000+ new hotel stays as a result of a minor league ballpark. How many people actually say "let's go watch a AA baseball game and stay the night!"
 

smokin joe wood

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czar said:
LOL.
 
 
Courant.
 
Also of note in Courant story is that city projects 20,000+ new hotel stays as a result of a minor league ballpark. How many people actually say "let's go watch a AA baseball game and stay the night!"
 
Visiting teams.
 

czar

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smokin joe wood said:
 
Visiting teams.
 
Even if we concede that each visiting team adds 50 individual rooms (high estimate) for every single CT home game (72 games) we're talking like 3,600. 20,000 seems ludicrously optimistic. 
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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czar said:
 
Even if we concede that each visiting team adds 50 individual rooms (high estimate) for every single CT home game (72 games) we're talking like 3,600. 20,000 seems ludicrously optimistic. 
 
But Hartford is New England's rising star!
 

StuckOnYouk

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czar said:
 
Even if we concede that each visiting team adds 50 individual rooms (high estimate) for every single CT home game (72 games) we're talking like 3,600. 20,000 seems ludicrously optimistic. 
You are acting like thousands Of fans don't travel to see their favorite minor league team play
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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I wonder what the good folks in Springfield MA are thinking right now.

I'm in no way an investor or a financial expert, but it would seem to me that coming up with a private partner to finance a $60 million project on such short notice won't be easy. The clock is ticking: the new stadium would have to be ready by April 2016.
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-new-britain-rock-cats-0802-20140801,0,7667531.story

It looks like the Rock Cats owners are stiffing the cities of Berlin and New Britain over taxes owed, and the mayor of New Britain is threating to terminate the stadium lease and evict the Rock Cats. Does anyone know how this would effect the Rock Cats owners claims to territorial rights if the city of New Britain were to try to get another team in the stadium for next year?
 

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The rumor that I hear is that Hartford is getting a AAA team - the Mets affiliate. This would make sense for a number of reasons. Especially given the stadium proposal satisfies AAA park requirements. 
 

bosoxsue

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The rumor that I hear is that Hartford is getting a AAA team - the Mets affiliate. This would make sense for a number of reasons. Especially given the stadium proposal satisfies AAA park requirements. 
 
So does that mean New Britain keeps its Double-A team and Hartford gets a team, also? Love how this state can manufacture money for hobby projects, but lets overpasses and such decay.
 

JimD

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The rumor that I hear is that Hartford is getting a AAA team - the Mets affiliate. This would make sense for a number of reasons. Especially given the stadium proposal satisfies AAA park requirements. 
 
It may make sense but such a move would require machinations to open up a franchise in the IL.  I don't see any weak current market among the 14 teams that would be ripe for the plucking - many of them have new parks a decade old or less. 
 
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As a CT Sox fan, this kind of sucks.  Stupid Hartford.
 
Maybe I misunderstand, but here's why:
 
If this becomes the Rockies, I'm no longer going to see the Portland Sea Dogs in New Britain.  Instead, if I want to see a Red Sox Minor League affiliate (AA or AAA), I have to travel to Maine or Rhode Island.  Boooooooooooooooo!
 
Screw these idiots that had to mess with this.  All of them!
 
I wonder how this plays out.  Because this is CT, I wonder about the attendance boosts from Portland Sea Dogs and Trenton Thunder games.  Ya know, being that CT is loaded with Red Sox and Yankee fans.  If that's the case, did they overlook that during this fiasco?  And will they recoup this if these same fans don't show up?
 

Dan Murfman

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Well right now it's going to be AA team so Portland will still come into play and if it ever goes to AAA Pawtucket would come to play in Hartford.
 
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Would that be the case?
 
The Tulsa Drillers are in the Texas League (not the Eastern League where Portland/Trenton play).
 
AAA/Pawtucket I could live with.
 

Dan Murfman

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HillysLastWalk said:
Would that be the case?
 
The Tulsa Drillers are in the Texas League (not the Eastern League where Portland/Trenton play).
New Britain is in the Eastern League. A team from New Britain is not joining the Texas League
 
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Ahhh.  I'm a dope then.
 
My assumption was that the Drillers move here, and this new "New Britain Drillers" would still be in the Texas League.  That don't make sense - imagine the travel alone.
 
Nothing to see here!
 

StuckOnYouk

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I only go when Portland comes to town. I will assume they aren't stupid enough to get rid of Portland coming in once a month.
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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I'll miss the Twins organization being in New Britain. It was always cool when the Sox played the Twins and seeing that most of Minnesota's lineup came through New Britain. I always liked to follow former Rock Cats as they made it to Minnesota and then spread throughout the major leagues. I've been going to Rock Cats games for many years, so I've seen many New Britain alumni playing on NESN. I even remember Papi as a Rock Cat, and there was a Rock Cat connection on the last out in 2004: Doug Mientkiewicz, who made the last putout at first base on the ground ball back to Keith Foulke played in New Britain in 1998. I have nothing against the Colorado Rockies, and I'm sure that we'll be seeing some of those guys in the big leagues some day, but right now it seems like starting all over.
 
I can't say I blame the Twins organization for bailing on the Rock Cats organization. I think Terry Ryan was just trying to be polite when he said that the "uncertainty of the Hartford situation"  was why they left. The Twins could see the fiasco coming with the proposed Hartford stadium, and they wanted to get out before they got sucked into the mess. The whole situation is a mess, most of the people think it's a stupid idea and don't want it, and people are beginning to wonder how they'll get a stadium ready for April 2016 when the financing isn't even in place yet.
 

Traut

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bosoxsue said:
 
So does that mean New Britain keeps its Double-A team and Hartford gets a team, also? Love how this state can manufacture money for hobby projects, but lets overpasses and such decay.
Territory rules prohibit more than 1 minor league team in Hartford County. It'll either be AA or AAA not both.
 

Traut

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JimD said:
 
It may make sense but such a move would require machinations to open up a franchise in the IL.  I don't see any weak current market among the 14 teams that would be ripe for the plucking - many of them have new parks a decade old or less. 
I hear the Mets. Per wiki:
 
On September 17, 2012, the 51s signed a Player Development Contract with the New York Mets for the 2013 and 2014 seasons.[16] On August 28th, 2014, the Mets announced that they have extended their deal with Las Vegas through the 2016 season.
 
 
Overlaps nicely with the ROCKie Cats deal expiring. 
 

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Not really though. Las Vegas isn't losing their AAA team. There would still need to be some city in the IL losing their team to Hartford.

It should also be noted that most PDC s are for 2 years... so most teams/cities will be free agents in 2016.
 

Traut

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Cuzittt said:
Not really though. Las Vegas isn't losing their AAA team. There would still need to be some city in the IL losing their team to Hartford.

It should also be noted that most PDC s are for 2 years... so most teams/cities will be free agents in 2016.
What I hear could be completely false, aspirational, or old information. It would make a lot of sense for a market of Hartford's size with a stadium this nice to host a AAA team. It would also make sense for the Mets to have their AAA team closer to Flushing. Sometimes two things that make sense don't always happen. But if in 2017, Hartford opened its new stadium with a AAA affiliate - it wouldn't surprise me.
 

Cuzittt

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It would surprise me only because two leagues (IL and EL) and at least two cities have to make moves. Does Hartford as a AAA market make sense? Maybe. But, someone needs to tell me what city in the IL doesn't make sense.
 

Fred not Lynn

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As it stands right now, Las Vegas is the universally least desirable AAA team to have as an affiliate. The stadium is middle-aged and dull and in a nothing special location, you have the distractions of Vegas, and summer in Vegas is kind of hot. The only thing in Vegas' favor is how easy it it to fly to and from. They're always the last team to get picked when the affiliation dance gets moving.

That will change once they get a new stadium, which eventually they will... But then, I would expect them to land a western team.
 

mabrowndog

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Vegas also finished 3rd-to-last in average attendance among all AAA clubs this season (4,640). The only teams worse: the Gwinnett Braves (4,281) and the Natstown-affiliated Syracuse Chiefs (3,743).
 
Gwinnett ain't going anywhere, considering the parent Braves moved them from Richmond just 5 years ago and they're only 31 miles apart (a distance that will decrease further once Atlanta moves north to Marietta).
 
As for Syracuse, the stadium there was built in 1997, and last December the Nationals renewed their player development contract with the Chiefs through 2018. I have no idea if PDCs typically allow for the relocation of an affiliate to a new city.
 
Other than a population base and low taxes (which only matter when you, y'know, actually have revenue to protect from taxation), I have no idea what the infatuation is with Vegas. The only reason the Mets are there is because Jeff Wilpon idiotically fucked the Mets out of their spot in Norfolk VA.
 
Getting the Mets to Hartford without changing the inherent structure of the IL and PCL would require numerous dominoes to fall simultaneously. A current PCL-affiliated MLB club would need to take over the Vegas slot, while a current IL-affiliated club would need to ditch its current city and move to CT. And, unless the contracts allowed them, the moves would need to coincide with expiration of existing PDCs. If no other MLB team is going to affiliate with Vegas, the IL would likely have to convey one of its existing westernmost franchises (Louisville? Indianapolis?) to the PCL, and I can't see the ownership of either of those minor league clubs agreeing to it based on travel & expenses alone.
 
While it seems a perishable thought today, the most likely MLB club to have its AAA affiliate in Hartford is...
 
 
(drum roll...)
 
 
The Red Sox (/climactic cymbal crash)
 
As much as we all love McCoy for its affordability, proximity and its family-friendly atmosphere, the fact remains that it's the oldest current AAA stadium by miles (built in 1942). The next oldest facility? Cheney Stadium in Tacoma WA (1960), where the Rainiers are affiliated with the Mariners just 25 miles away. McCoy is more than four decades older than the next in line (and which FNL aptly describes above): Cashman Field in Las Vegas (1983).
 
A new stadium with corporate-friendly facilities and commensurate revenue opportunities would no doubt be attractive to whoever ends up owning the PawSox -- and, in turn, to Red Sox ownership. Ben Mondor's widow Madeleine is now 82 (Ben was 85 when he passed in 2010), and they had no children. The PawSox' two top front-office figures, Mike Tamburro & Lou Schwechheimer, have both been with the PawSox for 35 years. They won't keep working forever, and at some point the franchise will change hands.
 
Though it's apparently in decent financial health (Forbes ranked it the 15th most valuable minor league club in the nation in 2012), and attendance is still strong (7.367 per game this year; 9th among 14 IL teams, 13th in AAA), its net operating revenue in 2012 (again, per Forbes) was only in the high-six figures. Compare that with the other franchises in the Forbes' Top 20:
 
$9.7M - Sacramento CA
$5.4M - Lehigh Valley PA
$5.2M - Round Rock TX
$4.9M - Memphis TN
$4.8M - Columbus OH
$4.8M - Dayton OH
$4.6M - Frisco TX
$4.3M - Albuquerque NM
$4.3M - Louisville KY
$4.3M - Reno NV
$3.6M - Toledo OH
$2.8M - Buffalo NY
$2.8M - Salt Lake City UT
$2.8M - Fresno CA
$2.7M - Corpus Christi TX
$2.3M - Indianapolis IN
$1.7M - Des Moines IA
$0.8M - Pawtucket RI
$0.6M - Durham NC
$0.6M - Omaha NE
 
Only two teams on the list had lower revenues than the PawSox in 2012, and Omaha (25% owned by Warren Buffett) had just finished building a new $38M self-financed stadium. As an FYI, 17 of the 20 were AAA franchises. Corpus Christi (co-owned by Nolan Ryan and his son, who also co-own Round Rock) and Frisco are both in the AA Texas League, while Dayton is the Reds' low Class A (yes, LOW A) affiliate in the Midwest League. Yet look at the net coin those lower-level teams are taking in.
 
Of the 13 AAA teams not on that list from 2 years ago, two moved into new stadiums this season (Charlotte NC and El Paso TX, which relocated from Tucson AZ after leaving Portland OR three years earlier) while a third will open its new ballpark next spring (Nashville TN). Charlotte led all of AAA in attendance this year (9,686/game) while El Paso was 10th (7,901). Nashville drew just 4,909 in their final year at venerable Herschel Greer Stadium.
 
It's also worth pointing out that in 2011, leading up to those Forbes rankings, the PawSox were in the Top 25 among all minor league teams in merchandising sales (FWIW, they also made the list in 2012, but not in 2013.) That generates revenue which isn't necessarily stadium-dependent, and only highlights how McCoy itself isn't generating enough cash -- even with solid attendance and merchandise sales.
 
There is clearly an opportunity for enhanced riches. And Hartford would still be plenty close enough to Boston (100 driving miles). I won't be surprised one bit if this happens.
 

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Great post Dog. When searching for IL franchises that might make a move, you focus on the Bucket - they're the ones with the oldest stadium and possibly the most unstable ownership situation.
 
I love McCoy, but the Henry group has been aggressive in expanding their reach. I am a little surprised they haven't connived to put something in Connecticut. 
 

JimD

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mabrowndog said:
As for Syracuse, the stadium there was built in 1997, and last December the Nationals renewed their player development contract with the Chiefs through 2018. I have no idea if PDCs typically allow for the relocation of an affiliate to a new city.
 
The Syracuse club is community-owned by local shareholders (somewhat similar to the ownership structure of the Green Bay Packers), so the Chiefs are not getting poached.  The club was not run very well for many years by the previous management group and attendance suffered, but ownership brought in a new GM this year who has begun to bring fans back in.  The announced 2014 attendance figures need an asterisk - the previous management would give away tickets like crazy and count those in the official headcount but that practice was ended this season and the new numbers are based on the turnstile counts.  Syracuse actually had the highest attendance of any minor league club in this year's playoffs for its one game, which was the first Chiefs playoff game in two decades.   
 
All that being said, the club lost money in 2013 and is reportedly not in the most robust financial health.  I could see a scenario where the Syracuse ownership could be convinced to trade its IL franchise for an EL franchise along with a nice cash payment.  I think a AA franchise would work well in this market.   
 

steveluck7

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Minor nitipck re: McCoy stadium. It was pretty significantly renovated in 1999-2000. Your points about the ownership situation are all spot on though even if as a native Pawtucketite, i don't want to really think about them leaving!
 

mabrowndog

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steveluck7 said:
Minor nitipck re: McCoy stadium. It was pretty significantly renovated in 1999-2000. Your points about the ownership situation are all spot on though even if as a native Pawtucketite, i don't want to really think about them leaving!
 
You're 100% correct, and I should have included that in my War and Peace post. Though structurally it's 70+ years old, it doesn't really present itself as such in terms of ambiance.
 
 
Fred not Lynn said:
If I were to speculate about the PawSox post Monday ownership, I would look right at the parent club...
 
It would certainly fit their mode, and it's worked out great with Salem.
 
However, if they were to buy the team and then move it out of RI, they'd catch a shitload of public relations heat. So I'm thinking  any prodding Red Sox ownership might do would be exclusively behind the scenes, perhaps guiding another investment group towards a purchase. If Ben's widow should pass in the next few years, I'm betting she bequeaths the team and McCoy to the charitable foundation she and her husband started. And as the Yawkey Foundation did in Boston, the Mondor Foundation would then sell the club for big (tax free) bucks.
 
The new PawSox owners would be the ones to fall on the PR sword should they move the team to Hartford, allowing JHW and company to shrug their shoulders in "well, things change, that's their decision" fashion in front of the cameras -- before high-fiving behind closed doors as they launch their incursion deeper into Mets/Yankees turf.
 
McCoy could then potentially become the home for the Eastern League affiliate leaving New Britain.
 

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I guess the fact that the Sox haven't yet renewed their PDC with Pawtucket (it expires this year, but this is nothing special, the longest they can go is 4 years) might give an opportunity for them to think about something different.  But honestly unless FSG already owned the Pawsox, I'm not sure how you can get a new ownership group in and get them to take on whatever debt service comes with a new stadium (unless of course Hartford and the Red Sox pick up a large portion of the tab like Allentown/Phillies did with the Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs)
 

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mabrowndog said:
 
You're 100% correct, and I should have included that in my War and Peace post. Though structurally it's 70+ years old, it doesn't really present itself as such in terms of ambiance.
 
 
It has nothing to do with ambience.  You said yourself they have great attendance.  They do fine with merch and concession sales.  The difference in their revenues comes from a couple of things.  First off, they don't have much of a luxury box set-up.  This is a big part of Sacto's revenue stream, for instance (however, it should be noted that Sacto is larger than 6 MLB MSAs and is 2 hours from the closest MLB team).  Second, they include parking with the price of the ticket.
 
You could argue that Pawtucket itself sucks and RI sucks and doesn't have enough disposable income to support bigger ticket prices, etc.  But probably new owners would first try to leverage that stuff first.  Not sure what they could do about luxury boxes, though.  That is one place where Hartford could really make a difference, as there are a bunch of companies there to support luxury boxes.
 

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My ambiance comment was only in response to steveluck's point about the renovations, which did make McCoy look less aged. It wasn't an inference that improved ambiance contributed to revenue in any significant way.
 
As for luxury boxes, you're right -- and in my original post I specifically noted that a new Hartford stadium would offer "corporate-friendly facilities and commensurate revenue opportunities."  However, your point on the parking tie-in is a good one, and a big factor. I believe you're also correct that Hartford likely offers more potential luxury box tenants than Providence.
 

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I'd be shocked if Mondor didn't have some stipulation in his will that they can't sell the team to someone who would move the team out of Pawtucket. He had plenty of chances to sell out and enrich himself and never came close to biting. I wouldn't be the least surprised if the team is somehow bequeathed to Tamburro and/or Schwechheimer. They showed extraordinary loyalty to Mondor and he was the type of guy to reward that.

If push came to shove on this, someone like the Hassenfeld's could step in with some partners and keep the team in Pawtucket.
 

Fred not Lynn

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I think the PawSox's greatest value lies in their affiliation, more so than other AAA teams. If FSG wanted to own the team when a sale situation arose, all they'd need to do is inform rival bidders that they had best not count on that affiliation continuing, and to bid accordingly, to win that auction.
 

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Fred not Lynn said:
I think the PawSox's greatest value lies in their affiliation, more so than other AAA teams. If FSG wanted to own the team when a sale situation arose, all they'd need to do is inform rival bidders that they had best not count on that affiliation continuing, and to bid accordingly, to win that auction.
 
What is the lease situation at McCoy?  Minor league franchises are valuable and that tactic would likely backfire if the new owners could get out of Pawtucket with a minimum of fuss and relocate to another market.
 

Fred not Lynn

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Still, the combination of being a Red Sox affiliate in New England makes the PawSox more valuable, and if only one prospective buyer (FSG) can count on the continuation of that affiliation, they're going to be in the driver's seat if they so choose.
 

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JimD said:
 
What is the lease situation at McCoy?  Minor league franchises are valuable and that tactic would likely backfire if the new owners could get out of Pawtucket with a minimum of fuss and relocate to another market.
The current lease runs through 2021, with a five year option after that.
 

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Fred not Lynn said:
Still, the combination of being a Red Sox affiliate in New England makes the PawSox more valuable, and if only one prospective buyer (FSG) can count on the continuation of that affiliation, they're going to be in the driver's seat if they so choose.
 
There is tremendous value for the Red Sox as well in having their AAA affiliate an hour down the road from Fenway Park.  If Hartford doesn't land an IL franchise, the Sox could be looking at having their top farm club being located a plane ride away from Boston.