NFL 100 All-Time Team Co-Hosted by Bill Belichick
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Latter. He’s played about four seasons, and isn’t in the same city as other top receivers of his era in terms of total production. 450 catches and 5500 yards post-2005 or so isn’t getting you in the parking lot of the Hall, much less this list.
I know people don't like him, but TO really got the shaft here. He is third all time in receiving yards, third all time in receiving TDs and eighth all time in receptions. Played with some good QBs but no Hall of Famers except for Steve Young at the start of his career. 5x time First Team All-Pro. Was a good player in the clutch and was always willing to go over the middle, and was a really good blocker to boot. He is much better than Fitzgerald, he has a career AV 35 points higher.
TO absolutely is an all-time great. In the first Eagles-Pats SB, he came back from a horrible foot/ankle injury and played GREAT. One of the most impressive performances from a WR I've ever seen. Dude was incredible.
Looks fine to me, again, stressing the fact that it’s an all-time group. Wait ‘til you see what current/very recent quarterbacks get left off.
I don't know how many QBs there are, but on the all-time team have to be these guys at least:
Montana
Brady
Marino
Elway
Graham
Unitas
Peyton
There are plenty more that could be on the list, but these guys HAVE to be on it, right?
Montana
Brady
Marino
Elway
Graham
Unitas
Peyton
There are plenty more that could be on the list, but these guys HAVE to be on it, right?
I'd wager Baugh, Otto Graham, Unitas, Bart Starr have a decent chance of bumping some more familiar names
Sammy Baugh is definitely making it.
Brees is better than Elway, which might be an unpopular take and I know Elway dragged some shitty teams to the Super Bowl early in his career, but Brees is just a better QB. Obviously you can't compare raw statistics between the eras, but Brees' black ink is insane, especially compared to Elway who only led the league in a relevant passing category once, passing yards in 1993. Brees did play indoors, but I'd argue that he had the worst supporting cast of those names you mentioned, except for maybe Marino. Who from those Saints teams is going to the HoF except for Brees? Thomas maybe one day?
Brady, Manning, Unitas, Marino, Montana, Otto Graham and Favre are mortal locks.
Past that, I’m not sure where they go. From the perspective of the voters, I think the other likely candidates for the remaining three spots are: Y.A. Tittle, Bart Starr, John Elway, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Dan Fouts, Fran Tarkenton, Sammy Baugh, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Warren Moon, Sonny Jurgensen, Bobby Layne, Roger Staubach, Len Dawson, Norm Van Brocklin, Joe Namath. Maybe Roethlisberger sneaks in as a finalist.
I think Brees has to be one of the top ten.
Past that, I’m not sure where they go. From the perspective of the voters, I think the other likely candidates for the remaining three spots are: Y.A. Tittle, Bart Starr, John Elway, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Dan Fouts, Fran Tarkenton, Sammy Baugh, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Warren Moon, Sonny Jurgensen, Bobby Layne, Roger Staubach, Len Dawson, Norm Van Brocklin, Joe Namath. Maybe Roethlisberger sneaks in as a finalist.
I think Brees has to be one of the top ten.
5x MVP. I actually got in an argument with someone this Summer who was telling me because Manning has 5 MVPs, that means he is the best QB of all time, so some (stupid) people think that.
I think it would be hard to put Favre in over Brees; Brees has surpassed all of his passing records and been incredibly efficient in doing so, and they both have one SB. I love Favre but Brees has had a better career.
Pro-bowls: Manning 14, Brees 12
All-pro: Manning 7, Brees 1
MVP: Manning 5, Brees 0
SB titles: Manning 2, Brees 1
Conference titles: Manning 3, Brees 1
W-L record: Manning 186-79 (.702), Brees 161-111 (.592)
Probably more playoff and regular season success. The Saints have missed the playoffs multiple seasons with a healthy, in-his-prime, Brees.
Brees should be there.
It doesn’t help him in terms of comps to contemporaries that the Saints have had 6 losing seasons, and only three conference title appearances and one SB appearance, in his 14 years with the team. He also got replaced by another QB (Rivers) in his mid-20s who was drafted in the top 5 like 18 months before Brees had rotator cuff surgery. It seems like that’s been mostly forgotten, and it was arguably not a wise move by the Chargers, but if you’re on a panel trying to pick a team it’s hard not to at least acknowledge.
I think it would be impossible to Favre in there over anybody. 336 interceptions will never, ever be surpassed.
Taking nothing away from Brees, he's great and IMO a borderline top 10-12 alltine QB, but comping passing records post-Polian crying (2002) and other related QB protection plans to the more physical D of prior periods, is a BS comp. Yards and TDs are totally inflated stats and have to be put into some context..
I really disagree with that. Just because a team did something stupid, it shouldn't be held against that player. Nobody argues that Jordan wasn't the best because Sam Bowie was drafted ahead of him, or that Brady wasn't the best because he was a sixth round pick. The fact that Rivers has had arguably a Hall of Fame career just makes it a little less of an egregious move for letting Brees walk.
Brees didn't make the playoffs a few years in New Orleans, but it is hard to back and say it was his fault. What more could he have done? Okay, they went 7-9 in 2012, but Brees threw for 5,100 yards and 43 touchdowns. In 2016 it was the same story, Saints go 7-9, but Brees throws for 5,200 yards, and 37 Tds while completing 70 percent of his passes. Maybe if he threw for 6,000 yards and completed 80 percent of his passes, they would have went 10-6.
Those years the Saints had like, historically bad defenses. In 2016, the Saints were second in points scored and 31st in points allowed. In 2012 they were third in points and 31st in points allowed. In 2015 they went 7-8, Brees threw for 4,900 yards, 32 TDs and 11 picks, but the Saints were dead last in defense.
Maybe I'm just biased against Brees but I don't see how he makes it.
The issue with Brees is regardless of the stats, he is without a doubt going to have the least accolades on there if he makes it. 1 All pro, 0 MVPs, 1 Super Bowl win, basically played his entire career as the third or fourth best quarterback after some combination of Brady Manning Rodgers.
This is also ignoring that we're probably going to get a surprise guy from the 1920s-1940s. Probably Baugh.
I agree with the locks. But this list lacks quarterbacks from the 60s-70s. I think at least one of Starr/Tarkenton/Staubach make it, and you could probably argue all three.
The issue with Brees is regardless of the stats, he is without a doubt going to have the least accolades on there if he makes it. 1 All pro, 0 MVPs, 1 Super Bowl win, basically played his entire career as the third or fourth best quarterback after some combination of Brady Manning Rodgers.
This is also ignoring that we're probably going to get a surprise guy from the 1920s-1940s. Probably Baugh.
I’m not saying I care about or agree with those points, I’m saying the panel may. I’m totally pro Brees here (sorry if that’s not clear), but if he gets shut out of the Top 10 I think these are some reasons why (fairly or not).
I'll continue to patiently wait for the day when everyone views QBs playing in domes the same way we view batting stats in Coors Field. Favre put up his numbers in arguably the worst environment in the league, Brees put his up in the best. The fact that Favre won three straight MVPs compared with none for Brees is going to be a tough hurdle to clear. I will say they are very very close.
Yeah, this is where I'm at. It's like some people here want to pretend the NFL didn't exist before the 1980s.
I mean, Don Hutson basically invented the modern wide receiver position. If someone hasn't even heard of him, that's on them.
Couldn't agree more. Guys that constantly play in bullshit -- QBs for outside northern teams, always have their stats sink late in the season.
Brees home/away splits say it all for me.
NFLN has 30 second or so ads about the all time players shows, and the two quarterbacks I’ve seen used in the ads are Bart Starr and Drew Brees. I don’t know if inclusion of these guys in the ads means anything but I’d consider Starr a longshot. Side observation. Also, I’ve heard Eisen say that the voting group for the all time 100 was put together in 2018. I don’t know when the voting was actually done, but it was certainly before Brees broke the TD record on Monday night. Anyway, Brees might not be automatic.
Dome/Outdoor/Retroroof Career Splits (passer rating)
Dome
Brees: 104.9
Brady: 109.0
Peyton: 99.1
Outdoor
Brees: 91.4
Brady: 96.4
Peyton: 94.0
Retroroof
Brees: 89.9
Brady: 98.4
Peyton: 99.2
Dome
Brees: 104.9
Brady: 109.0
Peyton: 99.1
Outdoor
Brees: 91.4
Brady: 96.4
Peyton: 94.0
Retroroof
Brees: 89.9
Brady: 98.4
Peyton: 99.2
Right, I remember back around 2010 or so, if you compared Brady v. Manning in rate stats, Manning blew Brady away. But if you dug deeper and compared indoor vs indoor and outdoor vs outdoor, Brady had better rate stats in both. It was just that the number of indoor games (where both fared much better) was so lopsided towards Manning that it tilted all the stats in his favor. Manning's decline and Brady's ongoing excellence seems to have evened out the overall numbers at this point.
The same is true now with Brees and Brady. Brees has the higher career QB Rating and Y/A vs Brady, but Brady's got better numbers both indoors and outdoors.
Brees is a great QB, obviously, but a huge part of QB evaluation is team success, fair or unfair. NO hasn't had nearly enough of it to overcome the lack of All-Pros/MVPs from Brees in this argument, and it's not like there's been some dynastic opponent in his division or even his conference that's keeping him down (a la Patriots with Manning). Add in the fact that Brees really has never been considered better than the 3rd best active QB in the NFL at any point in his career (best particular season, sure. best QB, no.), and I can see him being left out of the top 8-10 for sure.
Edit: Damnit @BaseballJones - I took too much time writing it all out.
Ha!
And don't forget....Brady's outdoor games are largely in the northeast. Brees' outdoor games were either in southern California (when he was with the Chargers) or against NFC South opponents (Tampa and Carolina). So even THAT part is lopsided in Brees' favor. Not all outdoor weather games are alike.
I will reiterate that you can't just look at team record and judge the QB by that. In the years that Brees missed the playoffs, he was always one of the best QBs in the league, but his defense was historically bad. Again, what could he have done those years? You look his numbers and they are MVP-level every season; but QBs who don't make the playoffs don't win the MVP, so the magical player who has a bunch of MVPs to make up for their lack of playoff appearances doesn't exist.
Right, but on the other hand a great O line and great receivers also make the QB look great. And having a shitty defense means the team is behind and thus the QB has more reason to throw. Likewise, some teams (especially recent dome teams) are intentionally built to pass, pass, pass. Further, teams that get way ahead are then inclined to run, which suppresses the QB's numbers.
I don't mean this as an argument for or against Brees or anyone else, just saying that a lot of team factors come into play. It's complicated.
I do think that the dome and weather effect are important. They are clearly factors and objectively understandable.
I don't mean this as an argument for or against Brees or anyone else, just saying that a lot of team factors come into play. It's complicated.
I do think that the dome and weather effect are important. They are clearly factors and objectively understandable.
It's not fair in my opinion to compare to Brady, but for like what 5 years in a row Brady had terrible defenses, The 2011 Superbowl team was ranked I think 31st.
The argument that Brees was held back by his defense is fair in a larger conversation, but in a top 10 all-time doesn't really hold water.
Nobody, nobody beats the weather drum around these parts more than I do. I can't believe how few people truly take this shit into account, both when comparing players, or even just making bets on Sundays. Folks could have made a second living betting against guys like Brees and Matt Ryan when they have to head outside.
Drew Brees is 8-7 in 15 playoff starts. Outdoors, he's 1-4. Indoors, he's 7-3, including the last two playoff losses against the Rams (DPI that wasn't called) and the Vikings (on the ludicrous final play of the game to Diggs).
Matt Ryan career numbers:
Dome: 96.9
Outdoors: 91.9
Retro: 90.9
In the playoffs, he's 4-6. He has one win and 3 losses outside and the one win was in Los Angeles.
Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and Brett Favre are really the only QB's who had sustained, long term success while consistently playing in shitty weather (one could maybe argue Eli Manning too). Brees and Ryan also played each other, so they played a minimum of 9 games per year indoors, and the other 2 division games were in Carolina and Tampa. It is brutal to play here in December/January. It completely changes everything from a statistical perspective, and is one of the big reasons I can't look at counting stats or most other stats in football without a keen eye as to the conditions those games, seasons, teams, played in.
Roethlisberger would have to be mentioned. Jim Kelly too. Tarkenton, Starr, Bradshaw if you wanted to go back really far.
Lebeau was active in the NFL at field level for 59 consecutive seasons, 14 as a player and 45 as a coach. He's been around a lot of the history and always been very aware of the game's history. Hell, he played with Night Train and against a lot of others on this list.
And yeah his wiki page lists quotes lauding him as a defensive innovator and coach, credits him with the zone blitz, etc.
Lebeau and Belichick talking defensive history would be a trip.
Yeah, there's an argument to be made for Big Ben, but IMO, he doesn't really hold up to guys like Brady and Rodgers. He has a career QBR of 93.2 outdoors, and 104.00 in only 19 career starts outdoors/retro. He's also been surrounded by some pretty special talent on offense for the better part of his career, but yeah, I agree he's in the conversation.
As for the older guys, I mean you could really consider all of them, seeing as how they were always playing outside. The influx of domes/roofs in the past 25 years has, IMO, had as much to do with the game changing than the rules or anything else. Guys weren't throwing forward passes 50 times a game when they were playing in Minnesota at the Met or Detroit in Tiger Stadium, in the 60's and 70's. Defenses and running games ruled the day back then, and a big part of it was because you just couldn't throw the ball in those conditions. Bart Starr finished his career with a 94-57-6 record while throwing 152td's, 138 picks and a QBR of 80.5 and was considered the best of his time.
Thats' what makes guys like Brady and Favre and Rodgers so special. They are playing in those same conditions, but doing it at a level on par with what most good QB's do in domes. It's pretty amazing.
I'm in agreement with most of what you posted and your larger point, BUT Starr was considered by most the 2nd best QB of his time. Starr was very good, maybe the original great game manager, but had a great defense stocked with HoF players and two Canton-bound guys with whom he shared the backfield.
IMO most considered Johnny U the best QB of the 60s.
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I agree with your larger point, but to be fair to Brees those outdoor games are all on the road (and thus generally against an opponent with a better record) while most of the indoors ones are home games (where the Saints had the better record). So, lots of noise there.
Played more than half of their games in domes: Manning 1, Brees 1
NVM already covered
2010 Pats were 25th in D, went 14-2
2011 Pats were 31st in D (and only a half yard a game worse than 32), went 13-3
2012 Pats were 25th in D, went 12-4
2013 Pats were 26th in D, went 12-4
So yeah. I don’t buy the Brees defense sucked argument.
2011 Pats were 31st in D (and only a half yard a game worse than 32), went 13-3
2012 Pats were 25th in D, went 12-4
2013 Pats were 26th in D, went 12-4
So yeah. I don’t buy the Brees defense sucked argument.
FWIW I was using points allowed and not yards per game; given that the Pats historically have been a tough red zone defense while allowing yards in between the 20s. Plus, there is a little difference between having a defense led by Bill Belichick and a defense led by Rob Ryan.
Of course, I’m not arguing that Brees was better or even equal to Brady; so whatever the Patriots have done isn’t really relevant to the conversation.
Considering the top 100 has been as much about history as stats and recency, I'll go with
Historical Selections:
Benny Friedman (1920 ish)
Sammy Baugh (1930-40's)
Otto Graham (40's to 50's)
Unitas (50's to 60's)
Blanda (60's)
I think they skip the late 60's through late 70's ... I mean Staubach or someone?
Modern Selections:
Joe Montana
Dan Marino
Brady
Manning (Peyton)
That leaves one for Favre or Elway or someone overshadowed by those 4 for most of their career.
Lebeau is incredible and absolutely deserved to be included in this selection committee. He also always appeared to me to be 20 or 30 years younger than he was. Which is kind of mind blowing for somebody that played in the NFL.
Here’s my stab at the QBs:
Brady
Montana
Manning
Elway
Favre
Rodgers
Marino
Tarkenton
Staubach
Brees
Unitas
Baugh
Brady
Montana
Manning
Elway
Favre
Rodgers
Marino
Tarkenton
Staubach
Brees
Unitas
Baugh
Blanda?
I'd take out Friedman and Blanda and put in Favre and either Staubach or Elway. I'd say Staubach and I'll bet they do too: shotgun, Navy and all that. Your four "Modern Selections" are the top 4 QBs I've ever seen and I go back a bit.