NFL Draft Rd.2-3: Discussions, Rumors & Spoilers Gamethread

SMU_Sox

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Great write-up on the CBs. Is there a guy worth taking at 46? Or are you looking at OT/WR there?
OT/OL/WR/Safety/IDL

None of these day 2 corners really gets me excited at 46. Value doesn't match up. MAYBE a versatile guy like Aaron Robinson or a safety who can possibly play corner like Richie Grant or Javon Holland. Those 2-3 guys could be intriguing there.
 

tims4wins

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OT/OL/WR/Safety/IDL

None of these day 2 corners really gets me excited at 46. Value doesn't match up. MAYBE a versatile guy like Aaron Robinson or a safety who can possibly play corner like Richie Grant or Javon Holland. Those 2-3 guys could be intriguing there.
Got it, thanks.
 

Cellar-Door

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Isn't he 6'3"? One inch shorter than Brady?

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/mac-jones/32004a4f-4e58-6540-bb7f-c07b995d57a4

EDIT: Same height as Matthew Stafford, Kirk Cousins, and Derek Carr. An inch taller than Aaron Rodgers and Dak Prescott, among others.
Alabama said 6'2" on his pro-day measurement so that's what I was going with. If he's 6'3" that moves him up to about NFL starter average. He's basically in that middle group either way, either right around average or in the group below average.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Alabama said 6'2" on his pro-day measurement so that's what I was going with. If he's 6'3" that moves him up to about NFL starter average. He's basically in that middle group either way, either right around average or in the group below average.
Right, if he's 6'3" (which is what he's listed as on nfl.com and patriots.com), he's average or a hair under. An inch taller than Aaron Rodgers, an inch shorter than Tom Brady, and the same height as Patrick Mahomes.
 

SMU_Sox

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IDL:

I am not a Barmore guy. He has off-field issues and he is too inconsistent and undisciplined for my taste. But sure, he has some elite tools in the tool box. Will be gone before 46 anyway.
I am also not a fan of this IDL class in general.

3 Techs:
Levi Onwuzurike: burst is elite and his run defense is good but he is more of a 3-tech penetrator who desperately needs to add pass rush moves and plays with too high a pad level as he peeks into the backfield. If you can clean that up he has the elite athletic traits to be a quality 3 tech. Likely best fit as a one-gap penetrator.
Daviyon Nixon: He is a one gap-penetrator with long arms but can't hold up at the POA and most of his production was coverage sacks or when he was unblocked. I am not high on Nixon and he comes with off-field concerns too. Has the size and length they like.
Tommy Togiai: great run defender who can surprisingly hold up at the POA and two-gap for someone with short arms. Doesn't offer much as a pass rusher and limited tackle radius.
Jay Tufele: I think he might be the guy they go for as a balanced pass and run defending 3-tech with good athleticism. He isn't going to wow you but in a thin IDL class he is an ok later day 2 option. He is also best as a one gap penetrator.

0-1 Techs:
Alim McNeill: Probably best as a 1 or 3 tech penetrator with his burst and power but might be able to 2-gap. He isn't a neat fit for the Pats but he is so good against the run I could see them liking him.
Bobby Brown III: He is like McNeill but with length. His biggest issue is he gambles too much and doesn't stick to gap integrity even though he can bullrush a center into the QB and 2-gap with ease with his power. High ceiling but the play discipline is an issue.
Tyler Shelvin: one-dimensional run-stuffer with off-field weight issues. Don't think he is a fit but you never know.

Base Ends who can do 5T/3T/4i:
Marlon Tuipulotu: He showed more as a pass rusher this year than last but he, like Wilson below him, is known for his run stuffing ability which is very good.
Marvin Wilson: Was hurt in 2020. I love Marvin Wilson's tape. I love his upper body strength and his 2019 burst. 2019 Marvin Wilson is an easy day 2 pick who dominates the run and has enough burst and power as a pass rusher. He can one or two gap. 2020 Marvin Wilson is just a run defender but a damn good one at that.
Either of these guys could eventually rotate in and replace Guy.

5Techs/Smaller-base-ends-rotational-pieces-some-edge:
Think Trey Flowers and Wise here...
Osa Odighizuwa: Athletic and explosive who can hold up at the point of attack but can he be an interior guy or is he only a 5T? Disappointing lack of pass rush moves. Has length.
Cameron Sample: Love Cam Sample - he is a fantastic run defender and savvy pass rusher who can 2-gap with smaller arms as well as be a one gap penetrator. Is a good but not great athlete. Neater fit in a 4-3 but could work here.
Milton Williams: Athletic but technique is a mess and he has short arms. He is just a one gap penetrator who doesn't know what he is doing yet. Don't think he is a fit here.

Lombardi and others have said they need more IDL and in particular a 3-tech. None of these guys are perfect matches but they could go IDL today.
 

SMU_Sox

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Safeties:

A lot of these guys can play multiple safety roles but I will split them into where I think they go best.

Free Safeties:
Trevon Moehrig: Good ball-hawk and processor. Generally sound in run support but can take bad angles. Has good but not great range. Can cover slots.
Richie Grant: Usually sound and fast processor. Best in run support, best tackler, and best man to man cover skills in the class. Projects to playing single high. Great athlete. This is my DMC replacement candidate and a perfect pairing with Dugger. He might be able to do some outside corner work too.
Jevon Holland: My runner-up pairing with Dugger for safety of the future. Good slot safety with the size to play in the box but needs to be more physical. Has the athleticism and range to play FS. He might be able to do some outside corner work too.
Andre Cisco: 28.6% missed tackle rate. He free-lances, gambles, takes the cheese, whatever you want to call it. He gets interceptions but gives up way too many TDs. He is appallingly bad in run support and can't tackle to save his life. Comes with injury issues. I actually booed my computer screen watching this guy. He is like an even more hurt and worse Grant Delpit. Apologies @bsj sorry to shit on your guy.
Jamar Johnson: Think Andre Cisco but he is relatively healthy but only started a year and doesn't gamble as much as Cisco. He is a slightly better tackler but isn't good there and his run support is an issue too. Ball hawk and doesn't give up the TDs.

Box Safeties/Safety-LB Hybrids:
Divine Deablo: He is 225+ and can take over the Adrian Phillips role. Would be an excellent STer.

Slot Safeties:
Elijah Molden: I love Honeybadger 2.0. He was hurt when he tested so ignore it. He is slightly undersized as a FS but can do that too even if his best role is slot corner. If it's base just let him play FS or around the box. He's good enough to have a home in base somewhere or if he is only a part-time player he will still be on the field 60-80% of the time because nickel is the new base anyway.
Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah: The joker - I am not a huge JOK fan. I think his best role is slot corner and he isn't the kind of LB the Patriots employ. He has a lot of nice skills but he doesn't really add up to a singular position well and as a LB is tiny.
 

bsj

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Cuse homer. ;-)
Based on the write up above, apparently. haha...its all legit criticism though. I just know the dude knows how to find the ball. But thats likely not enough for the next level

Truth be told, for SU guys, I really like Trill Williams as a late round dice roll. I think he has the potential to be an NFL contributor
 

8slim

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Based on the write up above, apparently. haha...its all legit criticism though. I just know the dude knows how to find the ball. But thats likely not enough for the next level

Truth be told, for SU guys, I really like Trill Williams as a late round dice roll. I think he has the potential to be an NFL contributor
I'm a Cuse guy as well, and I'd love for Cisco to find an NFL home... that's not the Pats. I'm not as down on him as SMU, but he's not a Belichick-type player at all.
 

BaseballJones

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Based on the write up above, apparently. haha...its all legit criticism though. I just know the dude knows how to find the ball. But thats likely not enough for the next level

Truth be told, for SU guys, I really like Trill Williams as a late round dice roll. I think he has the potential to be an NFL contributor
Remember the days when SU was sending big-time players to the NFL year-in and year-out?

Yeah, that was awesome.
 

SMU_Sox

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OL: If I have a * next to their name they played LT at least for 3-6 games. Also, this is the year where it's the T-Rex crew at OT. Almost everyone has short than 34 inch arms and many have shorter than 33 inch arms which to me means they are a guard or center.

OT:
Stone Forsythe*: Long, tall, and strong. Fantastic in pass pro but he struggles as a run blocker getting leverage and not waist-bending. he might always have that issue as a tall tackle.
Spencer Brown: Like Stone he has some tall tackle issues like getting out over his skis as a run blocker. His whole technique needs to be rebuilt in pass pro but he moves like a tight end and has the athletic traits you want. Think Vollmer.
Walker Little*: He has the hype but has been injured the last 2 years and barely played. ND kicked his ass as a freshman. He has an injury history too. His freshman tape was enticing as an athletic OT.
Jaylon Moore*: Smooth and athletic technician who needs to add functional strength. A little bit better on a zone team but reminds me a bit of Antonio Garcia.


OG/OT: best fit is probably at OG but they might be able to play OT and ALL of these guys played LT in college at least for a year or more which is big for the Patriots in picking IOL.
Trey Smith*: Massive and powerful but he hasn't been able to practice much the past 2 years. Played LT as a freshman at Tennessee but blood clots in his lungs have stunted his progress. Has balance issues and choppy footwork as well as mental errors with twists and stunts. Powerful punch but doesn't sustain blocks. His flashes look like an all-pro but he has too many pedestrian moments. Definitely risk here but a lot of rare tools.
Brady Christensen*: Thuney 2.0. Technician and wrestler. Athletic but short-armed. Can probably play every position on the line but LT.
Jackson Carman*: He has mental errors and attitude questions but he has rare power and movement skills. Also comes with some back issues. I think with his arms and mental mistakes he is best at guard and he is a total scheme fit for gap/power. Nasty too.
Liam Eichenberg*: He's strong as a run blocker but his use of hands is awful, has length issues, gets beaten by speed, I just don't think much of his game - think he is severely overrated. All he does is 2 hand strike. How can that be your pass pro repertoire? People are going to cross-chop him to death.
Brenden Jaimes*: He is a slightly worse version of Christensen - his issues are he needs more functional strength.

OT/OG:
Teven Jenkins*: we've covered him elsewhere. He is a nasty mother-fucker who will take your soul.
Samuel Cosmi*: He is a technical mess. Not a fan. Think he is best on a zone team who can bench his sloppy ass for a year. However he has the athleticism the Pats like. Pad level is awful too and he has short arms, 33".
Dillon Radunz*: He didn't dominate the competition but he improved every year, dominated the senior bowl, and if he adds functional strength to pair with his athleticism and grip strength (and mentality) will be a good RT or LT.


OG/OC:
Creed Humphrey: Probably best as a gap power guard and has some leverage issues but tremendous power and anchor.
Landon Dickerson*: Injuries, versatility, and nastiness are his calling cards. He can play any position but likely is a starting guard in a gap/power scheme.
Quinn Meinerz: Think Dickerson but without the injuries and coming from a small school. He also blew up the senior bowl. Gap power fit. Love this kid too.
Kendrick Green: Another mauler, what do you know? He is a gap/power guard or center who can torque guys across the LOS with his natural strength and fires off the ball. He has some issues with blocking and lining up in space.
Robert Hainsey: Probably best in a zone but has the athleticism and 2nd level ability the Patriots like in their guards and centers. Has some Thuney to him but needs to add functional strength.


I didn't include some guys because they don't fit their day 2 prototypes or imo would make sense. So no Mayfield who is a shitty guard with no anchor. Also no pure OGs since I think they go just OG on day 3 if at all. OG/OC types though are needed as they need a backup C next year or even this year to compete with Karas.
 

SMU_Sox

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Based on the write up above, apparently. haha...its all legit criticism though. I just know the dude knows how to find the ball. But thats likely not enough for the next level

Truth be told, for SU guys, I really like Trill Williams as a late round dice roll. I think he has the potential to be an NFL contributor
OK now there is a name we can agree on. Sorry... I really do not enjoy shitting on guys. Cisco just happened to be one of my pet peeve types.

Trill Williams is interesting because I can see him being able to play 3 roles: outside corner, slot corner, and free safety. Not sure what his best fit is but he is 109th on my board and I have a 3 fit on him so I think he actually makes some sense for them day 3 or even perhaps with pick 96.
 

E5 Yaz

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They can't be making nine more picks, so would Round 2 be the place to package and move up
 

ehaz

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What do we think about some of the day 3 corner projects like Zach McPherson and Tre Brown? I’m kind of hoping they find a project or two they like in the later rounds and fill other needs with day 2.
 

tims4wins

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What do we think about some of the day 3 corner projects like Zach McPherson and Tre Brown? I’m kind of hoping they find a project or two they like in the later rounds and fill other needs with day 2.
They do need a KR - doesn’t Tre Brown do that?
 

ehaz

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They can't be making nine more picks, so would Round 2 be the place to package and move up
I was kinda eyeing the Seahawks pick at 56(?). They have so few picks they might be amenable to a #96 + multiple 4ths package if the Pats want to double dip in the 2nd. Seattle might not want to move back that far though.
 

SMU_Sox

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What do we think about some of the day 3 corner projects like Zach McPherson and Tre Brown? I’m kind of hoping they find a project or two they like in the later rounds and fill other needs with day 2.
My two favorite day 3 guys? Picked them both for the predict the next Pats contest. I love Tre Brown. Scrappy and probably plays inside and out. Great special teamer. Has some Malcolm Butler to him. Zech is getting better as he gets more play time but looks to be a versatile guy who can play any scheme and cover anyone. Good to great athlete too. Zech needs to improve in areas where reps are the only medicine like when his back is turned to the QB and anticipating routes and route breaks. He is a bully at the catch point and fierce in run support. Same with Tre Brown. Tre Brown is pound for pound such a little beast. He tackles bigger guys like HE is the one 20 pounds heavier. It is really something. Anyway... hat tip to you. Love these two fits.
 

tims4wins

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My two favorite day 3 guys? Picked them both for the predict the next Pats contest. I love Tre Brown. Scrappy and probably plays inside and out. Great special teamer. Has some Malcolm Butler to him. Zech is getting better as he gets more play time but looks to be a versatile guy who can play any scheme and cover anyone. Good to great athlete too. Zech needs to improve in areas where reps are the only medicine like when his back is turned to the QB and anticipating routes and route breaks. He is a bully at the catch point and fierce in run support. Same with Tre Brown. Tre Brown is pound for pound such a little beast. He tackles bigger guys like HE is the one 20 pounds heavier. It is really something. Anyway... hat tip to you. Love these two fits.
Does Brown return kicks or am I misremembering?
 

EL Jeffe

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None of these day 2 corners really gets me excited at 46. Value doesn't match up. MAYBE a versatile guy like Aaron Robinson or a safety who can possibly play corner like Richie Grant or Javon Holland. Those 2-3 guys could be intriguing there.
Campbell at 46 would be a no-brainer for me. He still hasn't put it all together (and perhaps never well) and he can look a little stiff at times and he doesn't make as many plays as his talent suggests, but man...there's a lot of talent there.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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What do we think about some of the day 3 corner projects like Zach McPherson and Tre Brown? I’m kind of hoping they find a project or two they like in the later rounds and fill other needs with day 2.
I think we’ve all had enough second round DB busts to last a lifetime. They’ve shown an amazing ability to identify and develop unknown DBs as free agents, so no need to reach for another Dawson, Jones, or Richards. Slot Receiver would be awfully nice in round 2.
 

tims4wins

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By the way in case anyone is looking to kill time - the PFN mock simulator is updated. I've been playing around with it. Usually trading up a bit to grab Jenkins or E Moore.
 

SMU_Sox

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Campbell at 46 would be a no-brainer for me. He still hasn't put it all together (and perhaps never well) and he can look a little stiff at times and he doesn't make as many plays as his talent suggests, but man...there's a lot of talent there.
40720

The problem is that stiffness is not something they typically go for with day 2 outside corners. And having a worse shuttle than your 40 is concerning. I think Campbell is better designed in a more north-south up-and-down Seattle type system.

He is 62nd on my board, 57th on the consensus board (Arif Hasan). I recognize and appreciate the skill but "no-brainer" is way too rich for me with him. I don't think he is a fit here BUT if he is would be interesting, wouldn't it?
 

cshea

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Apropos of nothing ,really, but seems the Bears overplayed their hand in getting to 10 to draft Fields, no? It seems likely that if the Bears didn't move up, Fields/Jones both make it to the Pats. Assuming the Pats preferred Jones to Fields (admittedly easy to say in hindsight), then the Bears really only needed to jump past WFT at 19 to get their guy. I guess you never know, some other team could've swooped in, but it seems the Bears probably could've saved their 2022 first round pick if they had been a tad more patient.
 

E5 Yaz

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Apropos of nothing ,really, but seems the Bears overplayed their hand in getting to 10 to draft Fields, no? It seems likely that if the Bears didn't move up, Fields/Jones both make it to the Pats. Assuming the Pats preferred Jones to Fields (admittedly easy to say in hindsight), then the Bears really only needed to jump past WFT at 19 to get their guy. I guess you never know, some other team could've swooped in, but it seems the Bears probably could've saved their 2022 first round pick if they had been a tad more patient.
This presumes the Bears knew that the Patriots would take Jones over Fields. They probably decided it wasn't worth that risk
 

E5 Yaz

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67YAZ

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Just to put a bow on the question of whether Lawrence and Etienne like each other nonsense:

"I did have it in the back of my mind that I might have a chance to reunite with Trev,” Etienne said, via the team’s website. “For it to come full circle, I’m just happy, excited and blessed. Being his teammate for three years, we’ve really built that camaraderie."

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/04/30/travis-etienne-was-secretly-rooting-for-jaguars-to-take-him/
Still, I'm going to need a reality show of Etienne, Lawrence, & Lawrence's new wife sharing a 2-bed, 1-bath condo next to the stadium to see what their relationship is really like.

Apropos of nothing ,really, but seems the Bears overplayed their hand in getting to 10 to draft Fields, no? It seems likely that if the Bears didn't move up, Fields/Jones both make it to the Pats. Assuming the Pats preferred Jones to Fields (admittedly easy to say in hindsight), then the Bears really only needed to jump past WFT at 19 to get their guy. I guess you never know, some other team could've swooped in, but it seems the Bears probably could've saved their 2022 first round pick if they had been a tad more patient.
GM and Coach are on a one-year leash and pinning their future on Fields being the long-term answer at QB. If the Bears make the playoffs under Dalton or Fields becomes the starter and shows very well, then Pace and Nagy can deal with the missing pick next year. If it all goes sideways? Well, that's someone else's problem.

FWIW, Bears fans here are PUMPED. In 2017, Chicagoans were confused and annoyed that Pace traded up only to pass on Watson. But this is Big10 country, and folks here have seen Fields tear up the conference for 2 years. Now if Rodgers leaves the divisions...shit, there'll be a parade down LSD right past Soldier Field.

Edit: People online pointing out that the last two times Pace moved up in round 1 (2016 & 2017), he then moved back in round 2 to accrue more picks. Seems likely today given the Bears have a gap from 83 to 204. So keep an eye on #52.
 
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Cellar-Door

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This presumes the Bears knew that the Patriots would take Jones over Fields. They probably decided it wasn't worth that risk
Also presumes a team (WFT, NO, PIT?) wouldn't jump into the 11-14 range to get Fields
 

tims4wins

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Trade idea: offer Dallas JCJ + 122 for 44. Per the Rich Hill chart that values JCJ at around 51/52 (44 = 135, 122 = 24, 51 = 112, 52 = 109).

Who says no?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Apropos of nothing ,really, but seems the Bears overplayed their hand in getting to 10 to draft Fields, no? It seems likely that if the Bears didn't move up, Fields/Jones both make it to the Pats. Assuming the Pats preferred Jones to Fields (admittedly easy to say in hindsight), then the Bears really only needed to jump past WFT at 19 to get their guy. I guess you never know, some other team could've swooped in, but it seems the Bears probably could've saved their 2022 first round pick if they had been a tad more patient.
You never know what would have happened but at least they did it to draft a QB. I think the teams that really overplayed their hands were those that moved up in the 1st round to draft non-QBs. That is a strategy with a terrible track record historically and you can sort of see why when looking at how things shook out this year.

The Dolphins basically gave up a future first round pick to end up with Waddle rather than Smith, two very similarly graded WRs.

The Eagles gave up a 3rd rounder to draft a player in Smith at 10 that they almost certainly would have been able to pick at 12.

The Jets gave up two 3rd rounders to get Vera-Tucker instead of Darrisaw, two very similarly graded OL (and many people think Vera-Tucker is only a G in the pros).
 

Cellar-Door

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Trade idea: offer Dallas JCJ + 122 for 44. Per the Rich Hill chart that values JCJ at around 51/52 (44 = 135, 122 = 24, 51 = 112, 52 = 109).

Who says no?
Dallas likely.. their cap situation next year is not great, I don;t think they want to pay JCJ, be better off taking one of the draft corners in the 2nd or 3rd.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Bears brass doesn’t give a shit about burning future picks because they’re out the door if they didn’t acquire a promising QB and have a decent year or otherwise make the playoffs. This might buy them time, and if it doesn’t why do they care?