Balls and strikes alone is far harder than anything NFL refs have to do in my view, as it demands full concentration and focus for the entirety of the game.
NFL Officiating: Zebras gone wild
- Thread starter soxhop411
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But like 80% or more of pitches are obvious. Agree it requires concentration every pitch but so does every other sport.
Are the refs still part time employees? I see that as a huge part of the problem. Let them do it year round and get the correct training.
At least balls and strikes are objective. There is a strike zone. Pass interference and holding can or can't be called on every play. Plus, the refs have to run and keep up with the play. The ump is static. Not moving. Nothing is moving, but the ball.
I really do not agree with you here. Which isn't to say you're wrong.
I mean there is no way to know intent, but to me he looks and sees the player coming and then shifts backward into the player.
The ref might have been going for the flag but he also definitely delivered a hip check when he had the chance, too.
Thoughts in no particular order. I'm really not trying to be a contrarian, I guess I just come off that way.
1. Given what we've seen as taunting called this year, that seemed to be me to be possible taunting. In that moment, discretion should take over and maybe the ref should look the other way.
2. Do people really believe that Corrente was trying to initiate contact to throw a flag. Good fucking grief. He decided it was taunting and threw a flag. Criticize whether he should have taken a pass on taunting, but for fuck's sake. He may be a bit of dick and he maybe should have taken a pass on a highly discretionary call in a big moment, but that's the discussion that should be had.
3. I agree with those who say the league is failing these refs by trying to play it all ways and being so fucking reactive.
4. That said, all of this is a feature not a bug. The NFL fucking loves this. Just like they love Antonio Brown being a douche, catch no catch or whatever. We are always talking about the NFL on Tuesday and Friday morning. It is not hurting at all. It is helping. They revel in this. It makes them lots of money. They have no desire to "fix" this shit unless and until it actually hits the bottom line. I know it's counterintuitive to believe that this actually helps the NFL but it does. Every fucking day.
1. Given what we've seen as taunting called this year, that seemed to be me to be possible taunting. In that moment, discretion should take over and maybe the ref should look the other way.
2. Do people really believe that Corrente was trying to initiate contact to throw a flag. Good fucking grief. He decided it was taunting and threw a flag. Criticize whether he should have taken a pass on taunting, but for fuck's sake. He may be a bit of dick and he maybe should have taken a pass on a highly discretionary call in a big moment, but that's the discussion that should be had.
3. I agree with those who say the league is failing these refs by trying to play it all ways and being so fucking reactive.
4. That said, all of this is a feature not a bug. The NFL fucking loves this. Just like they love Antonio Brown being a douche, catch no catch or whatever. We are always talking about the NFL on Tuesday and Friday morning. It is not hurting at all. It is helping. They revel in this. It makes them lots of money. They have no desire to "fix" this shit unless and until it actually hits the bottom line. I know it's counterintuitive to believe that this actually helps the NFL but it does. Every fucking day.
I don't think that's true either. Hoop has tons of annual tweaks. This year's points of emphasis include offensive players initiating contact, which is now resulting in unprecedented no-calls and materially affecting the offensive games of some key players. Baseball famously started cracking down on grip enhancers this year. All sports do it.
Can we all agree that it wasn't the best idea for Marsh to run within 1 foot of the ref? I can remember even playing high school football back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, that my coaches always told us to steer clear of the refs, don't run right by them, as if you contacted them, even accidentally, it could be a penalty. If we were to speak to a ref, we were to address them as sir, be very respectful, and state facts (Sir, that offensive lineman keeps holding me. Could you please keep an eye out for it?). If anyone was confrontational to the ref, we would have been sitting on the bench faster than you could get your helmet off.
Its hard to judge intent from that clip (though there are legions of NFL fans who are certain they know what Corrente was thinking) but I am inclined to agree with you that the physical contact was inadvertent. The taunting call was complete garbage imo and I have no idea if Corrente has it out for Marsh or the Bears. However it seems odd that an NFL ref with 25+ years of experience would suddenly hip/Guerschon check a player during a close MNF game for all to see.
Honestly, I don't know ... (edit) but there was plenty of time to throw the taunting flag before Marsh was directly behind him
True, but again, it's a matter of objective vs. subjective. For example, in baseball either you were caught using grip enhancers or you weren't. If you were, you really don't have a legitimate beef. Last night, on the other hand, Marsh didn't say a word. But somehow Corrente was able to tell what he was thinking. When has staring ever been a penalty before last night?
Marsh was running directly at Corrente, which is weird to begin with. Corrente seems to be worried that he's going to run into him and turns his back and maybe does a little thing to protect himself.
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We're judging fractions of seconds here. I imagine Corrente was highly stressed in the moment. He was replaying what he had just seen and he's been doing this a long time and knew he was about to throw a flag on a player in a huge moment and then he sees the same player running right at him. I'm sure there was some weirdness going on in Corrente's mind like some immediate fight or flight thing where he momentarily thought Marsh could see him grabbing the flag or even could read his mind and then that player is running right at him.
Whatever the answer to why they had the weird bump, the idea that Corrente initiated contact to make a bad call, or whatever the theory running around the internet is, I think it's absurd.
I wanted the Bears to win, like I assume everyone else here did and I'm really disappointed that they got jobbed.
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We're judging fractions of seconds here. I imagine Corrente was highly stressed in the moment. He was replaying what he had just seen and he's been doing this a long time and knew he was about to throw a flag on a player in a huge moment and then he sees the same player running right at him. I'm sure there was some weirdness going on in Corrente's mind like some immediate fight or flight thing where he momentarily thought Marsh could see him grabbing the flag or even could read his mind and then that player is running right at him.
Whatever the answer to why they had the weird bump, the idea that Corrente initiated contact to make a bad call, or whatever the theory running around the internet is, I think it's absurd.
I wanted the Bears to win, like I assume everyone else here did and I'm really disappointed that they got jobbed.
Who cares about that, the issue is he hipchecked a player. In any sane league, that guy is fired.
The NHL's problem is playoff officiating. The rulebook essentially gets thrown out of the window and the penalty thresholds are completely different from what they call in the regular season. They'll call ticky tack stuff early, try to even the PP's up. If it's late and close games are essentially free-for-all's. Do whatever you want, cross check, hook, trip, tackle, just don't flip the puck over the glass from your end because that's an automatic call.
There was a lot of griping about cross checking in last years playoffs. So now it's a point of emphasis in the current regular season. That will slowly fade away and cross checks will again be ignored come playoff time.
Feels similar to how the NFL operates.
Player jobs directly at ref.
Ref turns sideways and bends knees, sticks his elbow out in anticipation of getting run into.
Somehow the sane thing here is the ref should be...fired. Ok.
I mean a lot of people disagree with you as to Corrente's actions there, but your take is one take, yes. As is mine. He clearly stuck his ass out, which is dangerous to the player. Then he does a little taunt with the flag throw. What do you make of that aspect to it? Looked to me like he was trying to be the big alpha dog.
To me, it was a pretty blatant hipcheck below a player's waist. It's unacceptable. If he's 70 years old and too slow to react to what's happening in front of him, he should be fired for that. But it sure looked a lot more malicious than you're giving it credit for. That wasn't bracing for impact, it was going out of his way to initiate it. Any ref at any level should be fired for that.
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How many NFL style athletes wearing pads have been injured by 70 year olds that turn slightly?
The player is initiating contact by jogging towards the stationary ref. "it's unacceptable" is such a ridiculous statement given how grossly you are misinterpreting the actual events.
Have you ever been around people and someone is coming right at you? What do you do? bend and try to pivot to reduce the contact, and for sure to avoid having your legs locked as someone is coming towards you. I mean this is basic human behavior. FIRE THIS MAN!!! HOW DARE HE REACT AS A HUMAN WOULD!!!
Yeah, I just don't agree with your interpretation of that video. I think the move backwards is more aggressive than defensive (defensive he'd be bracing the opposite way Marsh was running, not making himself bigger to impact the direction Marsh veered off). I guess the holding the arm up in a pose was also normal self defense? To me, that's a blatant hip check and taunt by an official.
Let's assume that your version of the events are true (for the record, I do not). What would motivate Corrente, who to my knowledge has no history of antagonistic behavior towards players in his long career, to intentionally do that now?
This is where I get stuck. I can even buy that he has something against Marsh that came up in the game or prior to but the idea that a longtime veteran official would let his emotions get the best of him during a relatively routine in-game sequence seems odd.
I think @Red Averages take is the most likely one. Marsh was running towards Corrente as he was trying to get his flag out and the 69 year old ref inadvertently stumbles backward into him. To be clear, I don't rule out that Corrente had intent but Occam's razor suggests this was just incidental contact.
Why does anyone need to guess a stranger’s motivation? Why does anyone do what they do? This is a weird “don’t believe your lying eyes” pushback. He made a completely unnatural movement to hip check a dude. If someone is jogging at you, everyone knows how to get out of the way.
Because I find the premise that the ref intentionally to have hip checked a player absurd on in premise and after watching the video. So then I go looking for other reasons where I may have blind spots. I haven't found any outside Tony Corrente is mildly uncoordinated.
Intent doesn’t need to be something well thought out or planned. If I had to guess, he went into fight or flight mode because Marsh was near him and engaged, whereas Marsh was just lost on the field and sidestepped. But Corrente saw the sidestep and then still chose to initiate contact after, as some sort of dominant gesture. The taunt by Corrente at the end seals the deal for me.
It was a split second decision, but pro refs live in that kind of world surrounded by testosterone and are trained and need to be better. He made it about him and endangered another player and himself.
Of course there is lots of speculation there, but it was asked for and so I provided
.
How about this? In an abundance of caution, after you make a big play, celebrate like a lunatic with your team and teammates and don't fucking stare down the other team. That goes for not clapping in an opponent's face (not Marsh), don't dance over a guy, flex in front of his face, etc.? I actually like the emphasis on no-taunting and think it will effectively eliminate it from the game in a year or two, just like the "soft" rules imposed on players who hit the QB late, rolled over the QB to squash him after hitting him, forcing guys to pull up rather than light a guy up as he ran over the middle or going out of bounds, etc. The players have the right to celebrate their asses off, and they should, just do it with your team or on your own (like Jamie Collins does when he rubs his belly after a sack).
Marsh's infraction, by historical standards, was laughably innocuous, but given the emphasis of the rule this year, he fell victim to it.
As to the ref and the "hip check," put me in the category of unintentional. Marsh was running straight at him (no fault of Marsh) and the ref was wrong-footed trying to get out of the way and ended up inadvertently making contact with Marsh.
Marsh's infraction, by historical standards, was laughably innocuous, but given the emphasis of the rule this year, he fell victim to it.
As to the ref and the "hip check," put me in the category of unintentional. Marsh was running straight at him (no fault of Marsh) and the ref was wrong-footed trying to get out of the way and ended up inadvertently making contact with Marsh.
That's a good point about playoff officiating. I agree NHL does a poor job there.
On that note, I absolutely hate different rules depending on game situation. Game should be called the same in regular season as playoffs and should be called the same at the beginning of game as the end.
Beyond the awful calls, I find that part to be totally unacceptable. He should be suspended and not allowed to ref games involving Marsh again.
If you watch the video you can clearly see Corrente clearly takes a step back, and then pivots to the left. Back.... and to the left. Back.
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And to the left.
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I buy that the flag may have been coming out with or without the bump, but I don't know how anyone can watch that video and think that the ref didn't intentionally initiate contact. I have no idea what his motive was, but it happened.
I see him turn and stick his butt into the path of the guy running at him. His feet are initially walking away from the 35 yard line, then he backs up towards it and Marsh’s path. Like, he reverses his direction that he was initially walking and moves towards Marsh. I don’t think there’s any intent to injure or possibility of injury, but I think there is an intent to initiate contact.
Ok, let's go frame by frame.
1 second in: Marsh is jogging towards a stationary ref. Both shoulder pads are squared for contact (not saying he'll tackle him, but the trajectory will lead to contact without either moving).
1.5 seconds in: Marsh plants his right foot, now approx 2 feet away from the soon to be 70 year old. His shoulders are still squared. The 70 year old appears to be now holding the flag.
1.75 seconds in: Marsh, after planting his foot makes a quick pivot to the left, but looks like he will clip the 70 year old still. The Ref still hasn't flinched.
2 seconds in: The 70 year old makes his first move. He slightly pivots, bends his knees and leans in a bit with his shoulder. A defensive posture to reduce impact after being flat footed.
2.5 seconds in. Contact is made. Marsh, who started 1 yard to the left runs into the Ref who hasn't moved.
The Ref should be fired, maybe even expelled from this great country where you can post a 5 second clip on twitter to somehow prove a bogus narrative.
Wouldn't surprise me if that was part of the training. As a soccer referee, we're taught that often the right reaction to a dirty play is to immediately, loudly, and showily make it clear that you've got it under control and aren't going to tolerate this, because it stops the other team from feeling they need to retaliate instead. I could imagine that similar guidance would be given for taunting calls.
"Marsh, who started 1 yard to the left runs into the Ref who hasn't moved."
I see the ref clearly move back into him with the weird pivot and jutting his hip / butt into his path.
I see the ref clearly move back into him with the weird pivot and jutting his hip / butt into his path.
It's not that he was assertive, he just held the flag toss pose like an asshole. He added a little flourish to the motion.
Or he stumbled slightly trying to unexpectedly get out of the way of someone fast approaching.
You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around . . . .
This is kind of turning into a classic SOSH thread. I feel fairly certain of what I think was going on. People who disagree feel the same way. It's weird -- like the blue dress or gold dress or yanny or laurel thing.
They'll be telling the story around here for generations.
"And that, boys and girls, is how Tony Fucking Corrente became the SOSH Roshomon."
He literally plants his feet, that are clearly not stumbling, and hip checks the guy running by.
What are people looking at if they think that wasn't a hip check? Marsh shouldn't have run so close to give him a chance to hip check. But that is what a hip check is, a plant of the feet and a check of the hip to a guy running by.
The stutter step he takes with his left foot quickly followed by a smaller stutter step with his right foot followed by falling backwards. I don't think that's a plant. You do. We've all spent too much time on this regardless.
It looks to me like he thinks Marsh is going to cut in front of him, so he steps back. Look at where Marsh is at the beginning of the loop--his right foot is on the small white line. His next step and that foot is on the long yard line. The ref thinks Marsh is going that way, and steps back, Marsh corrects, they end up in same place.