October Game Thread

Average Reds

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I like Jonah Keri, but did anyone else hear him on ESPN radio last night before the game? During a conversation about managers he made the statement that for the most part managers don't matter that much, that the only two he could imagine actually being able to win a game for their teams during the postseason were Bruce Bochy and...Buck Showalter.
Oops.
I've never understood it, but Buck has always been a media favorite. Maybe it's because he's "unafraid to go with his gut" or that he "plays the game the right way" or some such nonsense. Of course, these "brave" managers are always revealed to be thin-skinned cowards when one of their "gut feel" decisions blows up in their face.

Could not happen to a nicer guy...
 

Marceline

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Ubaldo Jimenez. Ubaldo Fucking Jimenez.

It's like using a rusty spoon to shovel my driveway when I have a top of the line snowblower ready and waiting in the garage.

So glad I'm not an O's fan right now.
 

Byrdbrain

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If you can't grasp the concept of blowing a game that one had a 90% chance to win is worse than blowing a game one had a 50% chance to win (at best). I don't know what else there is I can say.
I'm not going to defend Grady Little but I think this is worse. As has been pointed out Grady left one of the best pitchers ever in game, yes he was done and should have been pulled but it was Pedro. Buck never allowed a guy, who while not vintage Pedro was pretty damned close, to pitch and instead put in Ubaldo Jiminez who managed to lose the game in 5 pitches.
The fact that he had used him in a similar situation earlier in the year makes it even better.
 

djhb20

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I'm not going to defend Grady Little but I think this is worse. As has been pointed out Grady left one of the best pitchers ever in game, yes he was done and should have been pulled but it was Pedro. Buck never allowed a guy, who while not vintage Pedro was pretty damned close, to pitch and instead put in Ubaldo Jiminez who managed to lose the game in 5 pitches.
The fact that he had used him in a similar situation earlier in the year makes it even better.
This is where I am. You can understand leaving in Pedro. It was a horrible move, but the logic behind it - he's PEDRO MARTINEZ - at least you can see how it might work. My recollection of my mindset during that inning (to the extent it hasn't been wiped away by the ensuing years of awesomeness) is oscillating between "get him out of there" and "ok, he's not changing pitchers, c'mon Pedro!"

There can't be a single Orioles fan that was thinking, well it's not Britton but c'mon Ubaldo you can do it. Maybe hoping, but not believing it. I mean, the only logic behind it is "saving him to close the game out if we get ahead" which is idiotic because if you give up a run here you don't ever get to bat again.

Staying too long with the greatest pitcher ever is fundamentally different from using a garbage pitcher instead of a guy who's just completed what is arguably the best relief pitcher season of all time. Not that Little wasn't a complete fucking bonehead, but it's way easier to see a situation where his move works than where Buck's move works. Little put his best player in a position to fail. Buck left his best player out of the game and put definitely not his best players in a position to fail. The second seems obviously worse. (Also, he used Duensing to start the inning against a lefty. I guess there were no better lefties out there to pitch. Oh, wait...)

I honestly can't believe I'd ever say this, but I'd take Little's shit for brains move over this one every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Which is amazing because Little will rightly never again get anywhere near the managers office.

In the end, I still wish we had playoff Tito...
 

riboflav

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Also, it's been said that Little's decision took the Sox from a virtual win to a loss. And while I'm not defending the move, it actually took the Sox from an almost win to a 50/50 game. They ended up losing in... well, you know the story.
 

joe dokes

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I'm not going to defend Grady Little but I think this is worse. As has been pointed out Grady left one of the best pitchers ever in game, yes he was done and should have been pulled but it was Pedro. Buck never allowed a guy, who while not vintage Pedro was pretty damned close, to pitch and instead put in Ubaldo Jiminez who managed to lose the game in 5 pitches.
The fact that he had used him in a similar situation earlier in the year makes it even better.
I agree. there is absolutely nothing on the scale to defend Buck's decision not to use a reliever who had one of the best reliever seasons in history. None.
At least Grady was sticking with a Hall of Famer. A gassed Hall of Famer, but still. And it was the 7th inning.
 

Flunky

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man, rough thread. all this '03 talk and an '86 reference...

Who are you guys rooting for tonight? I am Mets all the way, I have several close friends that are die hard Mets fans.
 

Norm Siebern

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If Britton wins the Cy, Buck will send Jimenez up to the podium to get it. And Ubaldo will drop it.

Imagine Joe Torre pitching Tanyon Sturtz instead of Rivera in '03 because it was a tie game and not a save situation. Because that is what The Genius did last night.

Buck Showalter, the next Earl Weaver. Riiiight. Hahahahaha.
 

phrenile

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Some good stories out already, but I really liked this lead by Jeff Passan:

"It makes no sense. It didn’t make any sense before it happened, and it didn’t make any sense as it was happening, and it didn’t make any sense in the immediate aftermath. It won’t make sense today, won’t make sense tomorrow, not next week, next month or next year. There is but one explanation for Buck Showalter’s all-time screw-up Tuesday night, and it is this: Even the smartest men are capable of ineffable stupidity."

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-colossal-inexplicable-mistake-of-buck-showalter-081733150.html
... and Showalter doesn't have the luxury of being one of the smartest men to begin with....
 
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loshjott

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If Britton wins the Cy, Buck will send Jimenez up to the podium to get it. And Ubaldo will drop it.

Imagine Joe Torre pitching Tanyon Sturtz instead of Rivera in '03 because it was a tie game and not a save situation. Because that is what The Genius did last night.

Buck Showalter, the next Earl Weaver. Riiiight. Hahahahaha.
To be somewhat fair, Buck did say if they were at home (like the 03 MFYs), he may have used Britton.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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I like Jonah Keri, but did anyone else hear him on ESPN radio last night before the game? During a conversation about managers he made the statement that for the most part managers don't matter that much, that the only two he could imagine actually being able to win a game for their teams during the postseason were Bruce Bochy and...Buck Showalter.
Oops.
He won a postseason game for a team last night. Sadly for him it was not his own team.
 

troparra

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Grady choked, Buck's decision was pure strategy. I think that's the difference. Not sure which is worse, but I guess the outcome is the same.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Playoff Tito > Regular Season Tito
Playoff Farrell > Regular Season Farrell
Regular Season Buck > Playoff Buck
 

TFisNEXT

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Also, it's been said that Little's decision took the Sox from a virtual win to a loss. And while I'm not defending the move, it actually took the Sox from an almost win to a 50/50 game. They ended up losing in... well, you know the story.

Yep. They hadn't lost the game when Pedro was out. It was a tie game going to the top 9th.

Also, bringing in Britton vs Liriano for 2-3 innings has got to be better than 50/50 for the Orioles.

Last nights move is worse when you consider the skill difference between Britton and Jimenez.
 

jon abbey

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Well, in this game, Torre did use Jeff Weaver instead of Rivera in extra innings on the road, and he met the same fate as Buck.
That was game 4 of the series, not game 7, and NY was ahead 2-1. Also Rivera pitched 2 innings the night before, Britton had a day off after getting 5 outs on Sunday.
 

CoolPapaBellhorn

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That was game 4 of the series, not game 7, and NY was ahead 2-1. Also Rivera pitched 2 innings the night before, Britton had a day off after getting 5 outs on Sunday.
All true, but had they taken the lead, he would have used Rivera for the save. He may not have been able to get multiple innings out of him, but he still could have used him.

You would know better than me, but there was some backlash on Torre for not going to Rivera in this game, no? Not as much as there has been on Buck, but 13 years ago the "don't use your closer in a tie game on the road" mantra was a lot more widely accepted.
 

jon abbey

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All true, but had they taken the lead, he would have used Rivera for the save. He may not have been able to get multiple innings out of him, but he still could have used him.

You would know better than me, but there was some backlash on Torre for not going to Rivera in this game, no? Not as much as there has been on Buck, but 13 years ago the "don't use your closer in a tie game on the road" mantra was a lot more widely accepted.
There was definite backlash, but also people are mostly idiots, so not sure that matters much.

The big pitching mistake that Torre made in this series IMO (and this was a first-guess at the time) was using Wells in game 1 on 3 days rest (plus he had a brief appearance in game 7 against BOS in between the two starts). He pitched well but then had to leave his next appearance after 1 inning, which was probably what cost them the series, which was tied at 2-2 then. Torre didn't have many options after using everyone in game 7 of the ALCS, but I thought at the time he should have let Jose Contreras start game 1 in order to let the regular starters get their normal rest. Contreras was pitching out of the pen at that point, but had started and gone over 100 pitches as recently as Sept. 23, so he certainly could have given them 5 or 6 innings at least.
 

atisha

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Even more epic: just before the fateful final pitch, Buck went to the mound and held a rather long huddle conference. Next thing you know, bang: 3-run HR.
 

Bergs

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I woke up in the middle of the night thinking for a split second that I dreamed the whole thing...I went back to sleep with a smile on my face.
 

Curt S Loew

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I honestly can't believe I'd ever say this, but I'd take Little's shit for brains move over this one every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Which is amazing because Little will rightly never again get anywhere near the managers office.
Did you forget that he DID get another manager position after that? I might have, if I didn't get the chance to run into him before a ST game in Jupiter and share my thoughts with him.
 

luckysox

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Terrible first couple of months. Crazy hot June, very good July and Aug. Bad September and carrying it over to postseason. Not great timing.
So he got hot at the exact right moment, eh? Good for him. I like that dude.

edit: the quote was referring to Edwin Encarnacion before his 2nd at-bat.
 

Green (Tongued) Monster

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A lot of sad faces at the office today. They're blaming the offense more than Buck, but also questioning not bringing in Britton. Wondering why Mancini did not hit instead of Reimold in the 11th.

What a glorious day!
 

djhb20

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Did you forget that he DID get another manager position after that? I might have, if I didn't get the chance to run into him before a ST game in Jupiter and share my thoughts with him.
Ha. That's right. I forgot the Red Sox West hired him. Man, that was hilarious.
 

djhb20

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A lot of sad faces at the office today. They're blaming the offense more than Buck, but also questioning not bringing in Britton. Wondering why Mancini did not hit instead of Reimold in the 11th.

What a glorious day!
Well, the Orioles also scored only 2 runs in 11 innings, so there's plenty of blame to go around. But still...
 

54thMA

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If Britton wins the Cy, Buck will send Jimenez up to the podium to get it. And Ubaldo will drop it.

Imagine Joe Torre pitching Tanyon Sturtz instead of Rivera in '03 because it was a tie game and not a save situation. Because that is what The Genius did last night.

Buck Showalter, the next Earl Weaver. Riiiight. Hahahahaha.
I'll be basking in the glow of this for a long, long time.

One of the most boneheaded non moves I've ever seen.

It's one thing to bring that tomato can in, but when he gave up back to back hits, you have to yank him at that point and bring your all world closer in to face EE.

But nope, he stuck with the tomato can,.

The mind reels.

If our manager did that, this forum would implode.
 

reggiecleveland

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I'm not going to defend Grady Little but I think this is worse. As has been pointed out Grady left one of the best pitchers ever in game, yes he was done and should have been pulled but it was Pedro. Buck never allowed a guy, who while not vintage Pedro was pretty damned close, to pitch and instead put in Ubaldo Jiminez who managed to lose the game in 5 pitches.
The fact that he had used him in a similar situation earlier in the year makes it even better.
Sorry I have to disagree strongly.

Pedro after 100 pitches in 2003 was not a HOF pitcher, he was a below average pitcher. It was indefensible as is Buck's move. The silver lining to Grady, is that they canned him and we got Tito.

When Buck left him in I knew, just as I knew when Grady walked away, the game was lost. Now I have to listen to stupid Jays fans for at least another week.
 

Max Power

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Sorry I have to disagree strongly.

Pedro after 100 pitches in 2003 was not a HOF pitcher, he was a below average pitcher. It was indefensible as is Buck's move. The silver lining to Grady, is that they canned him and we got Tito.
That's just not true. After 100 pitches in 2003, Pedro gave up a slash line of .298/.365/.340 with some crazy bad BABIP luck. This year overall, in a much lower run scoring environment, Ubaldo gave up .268/.354/.418. Buck would have been better off bringing in the Pedro Martinez who had just pitched 7 innings in Yankee Stadium than a fresh Ubaldo last night.
 

Al Zarilla

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My wife watched the VPs debate on the other TV last night, so I asked her this morning if she'd heard about the game. She's not a big fan of sports and the best way to describe it ended up being Grady Little and Pedro. The whole thing about bringing in a pitcher in a road game and he gets the home team out, then you score, but he ends up having to hold the home team for another inning for you to win the game is a bit tedious to explain to a non-baseball fan. Is that what all Grady, I mean Buck was fussing over, that second inning for Britton ;)
 

rodderick

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That's just not true. After 100 pitches in 2003, Pedro gave up a slash line of .298/.365/.340 with some crazy bad BABIP luck. This year overall, in a much lower run scoring environment, Ubaldo gave up .268/.354/.418. Buck would have been better off bringing in the Pedro Martinez who had just pitched 7 innings in Yankee Stadium than a fresh Ubaldo last night.
Not to mention, Grady didn't have a guy like Britton to go to in the pen.
 

TFisNEXT

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Not to mention, Grady didn't have a guy like Britton to go to in the pen.
Timlin had been dominant that playoffs....but yeah, there's almost no parallel to 2016 Zach Britton. He had the best season of pretty much any reliever in the past couple decades anyway. Maybe since '90 Eck?

The gap between Ubaldo Jimenez and Zach Britton is just insane, and putting Jimenez into that game tied in the 11th inning instead of Britton is beyond indefensible. Someone else pointed out, even if you were going to be insanely stupid and bring him in, why wasn't Britton warming so you could use him if Ubaldo created a fairly predictable shitstorm?
 

reggiecleveland

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That's just not true. After 100 pitches in 2003, Pedro gave up a slash line of .298/.365/.340 with some crazy bad BABIP luck. This year overall, in a much lower run scoring environment, Ubaldo gave up .268/.354/.418. Buck would have been better off bringing in the Pedro Martinez who had just pitched 7 innings in Yankee Stadium than a fresh Ubaldo last night.
How does Pedro after 100 pitches compare to Britton's first batter?
 

E5 Yaz

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Throwing this out there:

Once the NL Wild Card is over, and the matchups decided, would it make more sense to have separate "gamethreads" for the other three series -- to cut down on crosstalk and eliminate the eventual megathread?
 

capecodjr41

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I keep going over this in my head and it's so unfathomable how a manager held in such high regard can fail so epically. The game is tied in the 9th inning, the season is on the line and your ballclub now has an advantage. You have the best relief pitcher in baseball.

PUT HIM IN THE FUCKING GAME.

He may give you 2+ innings, he used to be a starter. Maybe he gets you into the 11th or perhaps through the 11th. He passed on him to start the 9th, then passed on him with 2 runners on and nobody out in the 9th when his 79% GB ratio is exactly what was needed. He went to O'day a fly ball pitcher who had induced zero DPs on the season and somehow got away with it. The 10th seemed fine (once he declined to use Britton in the 9th) since the scheduled hitters were 0-25 vs O'Day. Then of course the 11th which is exponentially worse than the 9th since he opted for scrub relievers over a potential Cy Young Award winner.

He royally fucked the Orioles, their fanbase, and all baseball fans around the country. We tune in to watch the greatest talents on the biggest stage. This is October it's where legends are born. Who didn't want to see Britton out there? He also fucked us as Red Sox fans. If the O's win and then sneak by Texas we would have had the ALCS at Fenway and Fenway South. I would rather face the O's then Texas or the Jays. He fucked everybody.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Grady and Showalter both made monumental blunders. I feel Grady's was worse because the Sox FO had specifically given him data that showed how Pedro became substantially easier to hit after certain pitch counts. It really doesn't matter what a pitcher's pedigree is if he consistently loses effectiveness after a certain number of pitches.

Furthermore, while Little did not have a Britton in the pen, he did have a very effective tandem of Williamson and Timlin waiting to finish the game and the Yankees off. In short, there is no defense for what Grady did. Winning with your best isn't a defensible strategy when your best has been used up.

Ditto not using your best at full strength at all in a close and late situation. There is no defense aside from some old timey baseball adage that is idiotic once you think it through. When your season hinges on each pitch of a half inning you have to use your best available option. In this case, Showalter didn’t, despite the fact that his best available option was also the best pitcher for either team and one of the best in the entire league.
 

E5 Yaz

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It's all the more strange because Showalter had used Britton for 1+ innings 6 times this year, so it wasn't always a "only in save situation" use.
 

BigSoxFan

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Ubaldo Jimenez. Ubaldo Fucking Jimenez.

It's like using a rusty spoon to shovel my driveway when I have a top of the line snowblower ready and waiting in the garage.

So glad I'm not an O's fan right now.
Speaking of which, where is that O's fan who used to pop in on the game threads?
 

cannonball 1729

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Grady and Showalter both made monumental blunders. I feel Grady's was worse because the Sox FO had specifically given him data that showed how Pedro became substantially easier to hit after certain pitch counts. It really doesn't matter what a pitcher's pedigree is if he consistently loses effectiveness after a certain number of pitches.
And Grady had made exactly the same mistake repeatedly, leaving Pedro in to almost blow a game against Tampa in September, leaving John Burkett in to blow game 4 of the ALDS (which the Sox eventually overcame), etc. The Grady decision can't be considered without the background knowledge that Grady is a man who never learns from his mistakes.
 

Byrdbrain

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And Grady had made exactly the same mistake repeatedly, leaving Pedro in to almost blow a game against Tampa in September, leaving John Burkett in to blow game 4 of the ALDS (which the Sox eventually overcame), etc. The Grady decision can't be considered without the background knowledge that Grady is a man who never learns from his mistakes.
Grady was a moron who had no idea what he was doing and screwed up awfully. No one is excusing what Grady did but when the damage was done the game was tied and the Sox could have still won the game.
On the other hand Buck is widely considered as a top five manager often listed just below manager/guru Joe Maddon as the best in the game. After the damage was done from his screw up the game and season were over.
 

djhb20

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And Grady had made exactly the same mistake repeatedly, leaving Pedro in to almost blow a game against Tampa in September, leaving John Burkett in to blow game 4 of the ALDS (which the Sox eventually overcame), etc. The Grady decision can't be considered without the background knowledge that Grady is a man who never learns from his mistakes.
Showalter is worse in this regard too. He had the same situation before this year - 2-2 at TOR with no save chance on 7/31 and he brought Britton in in the 9th, he pitched two innings, and Baltimore eventually won 6-2 in 12. So he had the exact same situation, used Britton the way should have and won. Then when the stakes mattered, he used Britton wrong and lost.

Grady may never have learned from his mistakes, but Showalter couldn't even learn from his successes.

ETA: Forgot this game was linked above. Still true though...
 
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