Odell Beckham Jr.

[Turrable]

Splitting this out from the gamethread because I think the coolest/apparently most controversial athlete of my generation deserves his own thread. I'll preface this by saying I watched way more Giants football than I ever could have wanted to this year and I have a huge mancrush on the guy.

But no one is going to be talking about the matchup football wise (which I agree was great). Their collective douchbaggery and antics overshadowed a great matchup of world class athletes. We get replays of their stupid shit and tv time of dancing or beckham still celebrating on the sideline. Remove that annoying bullshit and the conversation would be about the football part of the matchup. But it's not. Because they are grown men who act like children and it takes away focus from one of the best football matchups of a great game.

I had the misfortune of catching a couple minutes of NFL Live a few weeks ago, and meathead suit-filler B declared that the most impressive thing about Odell Beckham—who has the speed of a sprinter, the body control and flexibility of a gymnast and the hands of a tree frog, and who makes me feel like a failure not just at sports but at literally being alive—is that he’s “not a diva.” Everyone agreed.

Obviously that narrative will change now, but the underlying assumption that his value to his team is derived from things that have nothing to do with how well he plays will stay the same. When Tom Brady racks up points, nobody cares how many rookies he humiliated or how many ref’s throats he shat down on live TV; he gets the benefit of the doubt, because he’s really fucking good and he deserves it. If Ryan Fitzpatrick tried that shit, it’d be funny, because he’s Ryan Fitzpatrick. Yet even when Odell does everything right, it seems like the media is really hesitant to let him out of the box we’ve set up that defines what a “good WR” actually is.

And then he has a game like he had today, where he led off with a brutal drop, took responsibility, got pretty well owned by one of the best corners in the league, got pissed off and fought him a bunch. Did it actually affect his play? Who knows? He still got his stats, and eventually made the exact kind of clutch play he’s been making all season. It sure looked to me like all the shit-talking and punches got him and Norman going. If it was Ted Ginn and some scrub corner it would have been tedious, but it wasn’t. From where I was sitting, that matchup delivered everything I'd hoped it would. I thought it was riveting television.

As for whether he's a dirty player, I’ll buy that the head-first spear was over-the-top, especially from a guy who isn't that physical and definitely can't take it as well as he dishes it out. Kind of reminds me of Tom Brady’s slide tackle on Ed Reed. Shit happens.

So I guess I’m just left wondering, where does this idea that the great game we all watched was “overshadowed” come from? Who are these people who won’t be able to concentrate on all the great football that happened?

 

[snowmanny]

He should have been ejected. Three personal fouls should be an automatic disqualification. I think everybody knows he's a great and exciting player.
He was also a piece of crap today.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Here's the hit from today:


I'm not one to say he's dirty but that shit can't happen. Especially from a "protected player" like a WR. Imagine if a CB hit him like that, he'd have a fit. He clearly lost control today, but one game isn't a career.

What this shows is a bit of "mentally weak" if you can throw him off that much.

 

[Buckner's Boots]

The main thing that was exposed today is that he's a little immature. He went head-to-head with a guy who had figured out that physical play is Beckham's weakness, and he was neutralized early on. He didn't handle it maturely at the time, and probably shouldn't have been in the game to make his big play late. An intentional spear should likely have disqualified him. But he did get it together for the most part, his athleticism and competitiveness winning out. I think he will overcome all of this fairly quickly if he just toes the line, learns to battle, and grows up. As long as he continues to do his job and doesn't get thrown out of games, his reputation won't matter a whole lot. This is the NFL.

 

[Bleedred]

Here's the hit from today:


I'm not one to say he's dirty but that shit can't happen. Especially from a "protected player" like a WR. Imagine if a CB hit him like that, he'd have a fit. He clearly lost control today, but one game isn't a career.

It was awesome theater until this embarrassment of a play. I think ODB JR should be suspended for 1 game and that Norman should be fined. I love watching him play...he's otherworldly. But there's no excuse for this shit.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

It was awesome theater until this embarrassment of a play. I think ODB JR should be suspended for 1 game and that Norman should be fined. I love watching him play...he's otherworldly. But there's no excuse for this shit.

I agree. I'd like to see Beckham out for a game. That can't just happen. Imagine if Gronk did that and took out the CB because he was angry he was covered all day. This isn't a Talib type hit where it was in the play, this was just Beckham being pissed off and being a bitch about it and trying to hurt someone.

 

[jon abbey]

Not defending Beckham's behavior, but FWIW, Norman did seem to start it on the first series:

http://thebiglead.com/2015/12/20/josh-norman-odell-beckham-body-slam/

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

Beckham lost his cool but Norman wasn't exactly an angel either. There were plenty of times the flag could have gone either way or both ways. Some fines both ways would be okay with me.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

I'm as big a beckham fanboy there is outside of NY and I'm disappointed by his shenanigans today. He should be above that and let his superb play do the talking for him. Hopefully it's something he can grow out of because he doesn't need it. He's too good for that cheap shit.

 

[burstnbloom]

There is too much going on with this guy. Today's performance was a disgrace, he should have been thrown out when he threw a punch in the first quarter. He's a great player but I'm growing very tired of this crap.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

I remember 5 or 10 years ago if you got caught throwing a punch in the NFL it was pretty much an auto ejection. Wonder why that changed?

 

[Average Reds]

Said it in the other thread and I'll say it here.

No one is claiming that Norman was an angel. But to imply that there is equivalence in the behavior on the field is to brand yourself a fool.

Every time I watch Beckham launch himself into the Norman's helmet I am sickened.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

There is too much going on with this guy. Today's performance was a disgrace, he should have been thrown out when he threw a punch in the first quarter. He's a great player but I'm growing very tired of this crap.

And when Norman threw his punch, what should have happened?

 

[DukeSox]

"Do your job, well" --> Odell's bullshit today was likely not just impacting his own performance (he was in his own head), but the resulting penalties actively hurt his team.

He is a clown.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Good news is his horrible behavior on the field will overshadow his christmas light cleats.

 

[Toe Nash]

He also got away with a push-off on the TD that other times (and perhaps with other players) would have been called.

The launch was dangerous, late, and had nothing to do with the play.

Punches are weird -- they did seem to be ejections in the past, but that always seemed silly since they're not actually going to hurt anyone with helmets on. But I think that was just the line that was drawn between "football" and "non-football" plays. I don't know if it was ever an official rule?

An interesting contrast is the game with the Pats -- Butler basically held him catchless for nearly all the game and they had lots of jawing and hand-fighting, but he had the big early play and the game was close so maybe he didn't get frustrated? I wonder what would have happened if he hadn't gotten the big play.

 

[YTF]

Beckham lost his cool but Norman wasn't exactly an angel either. There were plenty of times the flag could have gone either way or both ways. Some fines both ways would be okay with me.

This. I only saw bits and pieces of the game, switching every so often during the Patriots game. Were there many (any) flags thrown on these two guys? Not blaming the officials for the helmet to helmet but from my limited viewing these guys were allowed to play way too loose.

Missed the post mentioning 3 personal fouls up thread.

 

[kenneycb]

There is too much going on with this guy. Today's performance was a disgrace, he should have been thrown out when he threw a punch in the first quarter. He's a great player but I'm growing very tired of this crap.

What else has he done that is similar to today?

 

[bankshot1]

Beckham's act today was dangerous. He was out of control. PERIOD.
The question is, why wasn't he ejected, after the 3rd personal foul? IMO the refs bear some responsibility for losing control of this game.

 

[shawnrbu]

What else has he done that is similar to today?

Threw a punch at Duke Williams in the Buffalo game earlier this year.

 

[dcmissle]

Beckham's act today was dangerous. He was out of control. PERIOD.
The question is, why wasn't he ejected, after the 3rd personal foul? IMO the refs bear some responsibility for losing control of this game.

From Florio's site:

"according to a league source with knowledge of the situation, the league believes Beckham should have been ejected on Sunday"

I think this is legit. Or, at the very least, it reflects someone in the league office who was appalled by this and wary of Barzini's -- sorry, I mean Mara's -- pull with the league and wanted to get this out there to cut Mara off at the knees.

I don't believe he will be suspended, but as a practical matter the leash is much shorter than it was this morning.

 

[MarcSullivaFan]

Threw a punch at Duke Williams in the Buffalo game earlier this year.

Yeah, he was losing his shit in that game too.

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2015/10/post_41.html

 

[HurstSoGood]

I could be wrong, but it appeared that helmet-on-helmet aspect of the hit could have been an unintended consequence of Norman stopping and lowering his frame as the ball carrier hit the ground. Obviously ODB was flying in helmet first with some clearly bad intentions. If the runner had been on his feet for one more yard, Norman may have been more upright (or in on the tackle) and, ultimately, taken a broadside shot at the shoulder as if it was a crack-back block on a return. Regardless, neither is good. Kid clearly lost control and has a lot to learn.


Edit- Thanks DrewDawg

 

[dcmissle]

There is no controlling the narrative on this one. Seifert on ESPN with a strong piece; Norman saying, "film don't lie."

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Beckham's spear was horrible and he should have been ejected. However the trash talking and the sparring took two to get going and Norman had some terrible behavior too.

The thing is, Beckham actually gave Butler a pat on the back at the end of the Pats/Giants game after Butler essentially shut him down. Norman must have really needled him in addition to the physical stuff.

Frankly, save for the spear which cannot happen, I am fine with guys going at each other like this. We are watching a savage game where young men who have great physical gifts, a high pain threshold and a low fear governors are constantly putting themselves at risk of long-term injury. Its a violent sport. Let's not pretend that we are watching ballet.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Save for the spear is quite the caveat. I think everyone agrees that trash talking and an occasional non malicious cheap shot is fair game but that spear has no place in this game anymore.

This has nothing to do with pretending this is ballet or a non contact sport. But it Is recognition this is a savage sport and people are trying to find a happy medium. Which may or may not exist.

 

[AbbyNoho]

 

[Ralphwiggum]

The guy is obviously an unreal talent, but you can't lament him not getting the veterans benefit of the doubt so early in his career. You wonder whether he's going to be a Manny or Randy Moss type of guy, where rooting for him just means you accept a degree of this kind of stuff that is kind of inseperable from his talent.

Edit: to be clear I love both Manny and Randy.

 

[soxfan121]

Good news is his horrible behavior on the field will overshadow his christmas light cleats.

There's a decent chance he gets fined more for a uniform violation than those other shenanigans. This is the NFL, after all.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

I'm staying hopeful that this does not become a big part of who he is because he is such an otherworldly talent. I think he deserves a game out for the spear and maybe that shocks him into compliance.

 

[dhappy42]

I don't believe he will be suspended, but as a practical matter the leash is much shorter than it was this morning.

I love the complete idiocy of NFL discipline. Take a potentially crippling headshot at someone, offsetting 15-yard penalties. Be generally aware of ball tampering that probably didn't even happen, four-game suspension.

 

[AbbyNoho]

Yes, but let's not go down that rabbit hole again. There is nothing left to be said about it.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

I'm surprised that more people didn't see this coming with this guy. He has been a me first, instigator since he has been in the league. It was always a matter of when not if he would eventually do something to get himself in trouble and/or hurt his team. He is not the dirtiest player in the league by any stretch and Norman was just as chirpy today. The guy is an incredible talent and it's fun to watch him make amazing plays but he is so damn obnoxious to watch.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Didn't Beckham whine about the Jaguars or somebody targeting him this preseason? Well, I feel like DBs and safeties will be gunning for him even more after today.

 

[crystalline]

An interesting contrast is the game with the Pats -- Butler basically held him catchless for nearly all the game and they had lots of jawing and hand-fighting, but he had the big early play and the game was close so maybe he didn't get frustrated? I wonder what would have happened if he hadn't gotten the big play.

With all due respect, it seems like people talking about today's game don't know what trash talk is. Or what getting into a guy's head is all about.

ODB appears susceptible to guys riling him up, and some players are good at playing mind games. Norman appears to be one of them. The best example today was Finnegan a few plays after the hands to the face PF on Norman. Finnegan laid on a MASTERFUL show of goading Beckham by cheap shotting him in a way the refs were unlikely to call. It was clear Finnegan was trying to get Beckham to really lose it. For a second I thought we were going to see a total meltdown but Beckham barely held it together.

ODB is clearly immature. In some ways, though, until the helmet to helmet, it was interesting to watch guys rile someone up and see if that can get into their head and take them out of the game.

People are still laughing about KG's Cheerio line. Mind games work on some guys.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Giants are playing the Vikings on SNF next week. I give Beckham about a 0.000000001% chance of being suspended.

 

[LuckyBen]

I'm a Beckham hater, but Norman has his whole set of issues. He just got into a pissing match with Rodney Harrison and the fact that OBJ showed Butler respect says something about Norman.

 

[Kliq]

OBJ has the worst hair out of any professional athlete I have ever seen. Rick Barry's wig was better than whatever is growing out of OBJ's skull.

But seriously, what really got to me on that play was that while Norman was running downfield covering OBJ on the route, OBJ tried to give him a little something with a block (which would have been an illegal hands to the face) but Norman avoided it at the last second (and probably said something to OBJ as he passed by him). Beckham's response was to chase Norman down and then launch himself like a kamikaze at Norman it what could have been one of the cheapest shots in NFL history. This wasn't like the other plays where there might have been some instinctual defense going on, like a guy jawing in your face and you shove him away, OBJ had a second to think about what he was going to do, and he chose pretty much the worst route possible.

I don't understand the off-setting penalty. Why should Norman get penalized for standing up for himself after another player literally just tried to maim him.

Splitting this out from the gamethread because I think the coolest/apparently most controversial athlete of my generation deserves his own thread.

How is this even a serious statement? The coolest athlete of your generation?

 

[Turrable]

How is this even a serious statement? The coolest athlete of your generation?

Aside from Steph Curry, there is nobody roughly my age in sports right now more fun to watch. I don't see how that's even remotely controversial.

edit- also his hair is fresh. Fight me.

double edit- holy shit, Steph Curry is 27. I don't know if I can claim him in good faith. I'm tempted to because he looks 19.

 

[Kliq]

Aside from Steph Curry, there is nobody roughly my age in sports right now more fun to watch. I don't see how that's even remotely controversial.

edit- also his hair is fresh. Fight me.

double edit- holy shit, Steph Curry is 27. I don't know if I can claim him in good faith. I'm tempted to because he looks 19.

As an LSU fan I've been on the OBJ bandwagon longer than anyone, but he has only really existed on the national scene for a little over a year. Trout and Harper are more elite and have a longer track record. If we are talking our generation, then chances are the most intriguing athlete hasn't even appeared yet.

His haircut looks like shit. It looks like he pasted some straw on top of the hair that was already there.

 

[Marciano490]

Aside from Steph Curry, there is nobody roughly my age in sports right now more fun to watch. I don't see how that's even remotely controversial.

edit- also his hair is fresh. Fight me.

double edit- holy shit, Steph Curry is 27. I don't know if I can claim him in good faith. I'm tempted to because he looks 19.

You know how long a generation lasts, right? There are cooler athletes out their right now, if we're talking both on and off the field. Haven't seen much of ODB off the field, besides the gay rumors, which hopefully won't affect anyone's coolness gauge. I'd rather spend a day with Conor McGregor.

 

[Turrable]

As an LSU fan I've been on the OBJ bandwagon longer than anyone, but he has only really existed on the national scene for a little over a year. Trout and Harper are more elite and have a longer track record. If we are talking our generation, then chances are the most intriguing athlete hasn't even appeared yet.

His haircut looks like shit. It looks like he pasted some straw on top of the hair that was already there.

I don't know what "more elite" means. For his position, I don't know how much more elite of a start to a career you could have than what Odell has had. And that's before you get into the fun-to-watch aspect, which IMO isn't even close (and, personal preference and all, but I'm not letting Mike "footlong sweet onion chicken teriyaki" Trout anywhere near a discussion of cool athletes).

The points in this thread about his maturity and the needless spear play are well-taken. He plays a position where his ability to influence the game is inherently limited and he shouldn't be taking fifteen yarders. I won't complain if he gets a suspension.

But he's so goddamn entertaining that I just can't for the life of me understand all the hate, especially for what is a fairly isolated incident. I guess Manny and Moss are good comps, minus Manny's domestic violence. Those guys were fun. Sports should be fun. Odell is fun.

You know how long a generation lasts, right? There are cooler athletes out their right now, if we're talking both on and off the field. Haven't seen much of ODB off the field, besides the gay rumors, which hopefully won't affect anyone's coolness gauge. I'd rather spend a day with Conor McGregor.

I define my generation very strictly, you're only in if you saw Spy Kids 3D in theaters. Steph would have been in high school. He's out.

The bolded is only because we've never met, if news hit the streets of a Turrable-Marciano power alliance the NYC elites would flock. Add ODB, Shkreli and Trump and we'd have a half-decent starting 5.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Just an aside, but ... you don't get to define your own generation. These things get defined for you

 

[Marciano490]

I don't know what "more elite" means. For his position, I don't know how much more elite of a start to a career you could have than what Odell has had. And that's before you get into the fun-to-watch aspect, which IMO isn't even close (and, personal preference and all, but I'm not letting Mike "footlong sweet onion chicken teriyaki" Trout anywhere near a discussion of cool athletes).

The points in this thread about his maturity and the needless spear play are well-taken. He plays a position where his ability to influence the game is inherently limited and he shouldn't be taking fifteen yarders. I won't complain if he gets a suspension.

But he's so goddamn entertaining that I just can't for the life of me understand all the hate, especially for what is a fairly isolated incident. I guess Manny and Moss are good comps, minus Manny's domestic violence. Those guys were fun. Sports should be fun. Odell is fun.



I define my generation very strictly, you're only in if you saw Spy Kids 3D in theaters. Steph would have been in high school. He's out.

The bolded is only because we've never met, if news hit the streets of a Turrable-Marciano power alliance the NYC elites would flock. Add ODB, Shkreli and Trump and we'd have a half-decent starting 5.

True. Couldn't sell those models on trekking out to the Bronx to watch football in a college dorm. Maybe after fashion week.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Save for the spear is quite the caveat. I think everyone agrees that trash talking and an occasional non malicious cheap shot is fair game but that spear has no place in this game anymore.

This has nothing to do with pretending this is ballet or a non contact sport. But it Is recognition this is a savage sport and people are trying to find a happy medium. Which may or may not exist.

Your happy medium exists to those who were "sickened" by Beckham's actions today and all the other scandals that have beset the NFL over the years. Let's not pretend we are watching a noble sport where the best, most upstanding athlete prevails. Its a fucking bloodsport filled with young men who are sacrificing their bodies for our entertainment (and the chance to sell car insurance, fast food, smart phones and blockbuster movies).

The truth is, there is no happy medium. Its a brutal sport, played by brutal individuals. And we love it. At least be honest about it.

 

[sidewalkoaf]

But seriously, what really got to me on that play was that while Norman was running downfield covering OBJ on the route, OBJ tried to give him a little something with a block (which would have been an illegal hands to the face) but Norman avoided it at the last second (and probably said something to OBJ as he passed by him).

I saw those moments a little differently. Watching the video posted up-thread before reading other takes on it, I thought that Norman planted his feet, wound up, and walloped OBJ as hard as he could while OBJ went by. (Post #2, 1:04 and 1:16 in the video.) Seeing it that way, I thought OBJ's response seemed to be a heat-of-passion response to a violent moment. Of course that wouldn't justify what OBJ did, but it might make it a little more understandable.

But I haven't seen that interpretation in any of the commentary out there, so maybe I'm reading too much into what Norman did?

 

[Turrable]

Just an aside, but ... you don't get to define your own generation. These things get defined for you

...by once in a lifetime cinematic experiences like Spy Kids 3D

 

[Remagellan]

The spear was terrible but teams have been roughing him up all year, and he is not going to take it passively. If Gronk behaved similarly I doubt anyone here would be asking the NFL to suspend him for the Jets game.

But I did think the refs should have ejected Beckham during the game. If they are not going to eject a guy the first time he throws a punch at the very least the NFL should have a three strikes rule when it comes to personal fouls that are not incidental to the game.

 

[burstnbloom]

And when Norman threw his punch, what should have happened?

Well in the world where ODB was officiated correctly, he would have already been gone, so unless Normal punched someone else, it wouldn't have happened. Norman had a rough day as well, and he also should have been ejected for throwing a punch, because that's the rule.

 

[m0ckduck]

The spear was terrible but teams have been roughing him up all year, and he is not going to take it passively. .

Would you feel the same way if OBJ had caught Norman flush, concussed him and put his playoff status in doubt?

The fact that OBJ 'missed' and didn't wind up seriously hurting Norman is immaterial. I get the point that it was a slowly-escalating build-up between those two guys, but the league needs to draw the line at launching yourself helmet-first at somebody's head (or, say, knees) outside the structure of the play with clear intent to hurt— there's enough of an epidemic of serious injuries as it is.