Offensive depth chart -- down in the trenches

Cellar-Door

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I would leave Onwenu at RG, but I get the idea that LG is both a more valuable position and that they like Robinson most of their bad guards and he's the most likely to have soemthing. Also they want to be able to run.

I think Strange is going to be the C when he returns. The Ben Brown game 1 was fun... but it's become pretty clear he's arguably our worst OL playing real snaps, and he's bad at everything.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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But one not so slight concern I have is precisely that Onwenu's play has been uninspiring at best this season. I'd much rather try and get him sorted out into what they believe to be his best position than to move people so that Robinson gets as many snaps as possible at RG.
My own bias is that this isn't the kind of situation where there's only one "right" way to manage and develop the line, and everything else is wrong. Which is to say: I got no objection to your preference for keeping Onwenu at RG. I mean, that's my gut instinct, too

I also don't really object to the team moving him over. The coaching staff is surely as clear about the downsides of this as we are. They have some benefit in mind that we can only guess at. They are more motivated than we are to get this right, have more information, and have probably spent a lot more time debating the pros and cons of what they see as their options

FWIW, I was seeing an analysis of the degree to which different linemen were 'winning' their individual matchups this season and it had Onwenu as the 46th best tackle or guard in the league by this metric. On any given Sunday there are 128 starting tackles and guards across the league. If this metric is ballpark accurate that suggests Onwenu has done his job this season better than two-thirds of them. Or put another way: has been the kind of guy that on an league-average team might be the second-best guy on your line. I have no idea if that's inspiring or uninspiring, but FWIW there it is



Edit/update: Onwenu's 'win' rate was a lot better on passing plays than running plays. So, if you (or anyone else) had the reasonable desire for OLine to be good at both... well, only being good at one might be pretty uninspiring
 
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Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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I'm guessing they see something they like in Robinson as they keep pushing to get him in the lineup, only to find nope not ready yet.
Yes. I don't know if this is true, but I imagine them doing all this work with him in practice on how to do with different cops and spins, then sending him out after a couple of weeks to see how he does, and then back in practice it's "OK, let's try this again..."

You think this guy could be a good starter in 3-4 years this may the best path for him? Not my area of expertise...

I think Strange is going to be the C when he returns.
+1

That's the obvious move. So maybe they'll try him at RT? :)
 

Cellar-Door

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Nate Tice commented on it, basically said he thinks it's a case of Jordan has regressed and he's giving you nothing, so need to short up LG and Robinson is a draft pick who showed flashes (Thorn thought the same early in the year) and it doesn't make sense to not play him for Jordan.
 

SMU_Sox

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@Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache Reps will take care of it and coaching but I have hardly any hope in Robinson or Sow getting better at this. It's like I was telling Eck's Sneaky Cheese earlier this year about Sow... these kinds of issues are hard to fix and both guys have a long time playing with them. They might not ever get better. Maybe they do but we've seen absolutely nothing this year that indicated either guy has progressed in those ways. Super frustrating but also kind of expected. Guys who show no awareness in pass pro don't usually develop awareness later. There is a damn good reason Robinson was considered a late day 3 pick.

It's always possible. Likely? No.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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@Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache Reps will take care of it and coaching but I have hardly any hope in Robinson or Sow getting better at this. It's like I was telling Eck's Sneaky Cheese earlier this year about Sow... these kinds of issues are hard to fix and both guys have a long time playing with them. They might not ever get better. Maybe they do but we've seen absolutely nothing this year that indicated either guy has progressed in those ways. Super frustrating but also kind of expected. Guys who show no awareness in pass pro don't usually develop awareness later. There is a damn good reason Robinson was considered a late day 3 pick.

It's always possible. Likely? No.

Yeah, that's my memory of your take on the situation
 

Saints Rest

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I would leave Onwenu at RG, but I get the idea that LG is both a more valuable position and that they like Robinson most of their bad guards and he's the most likely to have soemthing. Also they want to be able to run.

I think Strange is going to be the C when he returns. The Ben Brown game 1 was fun... but it's become pretty clear he's arguably our worst OL playing real snaps, and he's bad at everything.
Yes. I don't know if this is true, but I imagine them doing all this work with him in practice on how to do with different cops and spins, then sending him out after a couple of weeks to see how he does, and then back in practice it's "OK, let's try this again..."

You think this guy could be a good starter in 3-4 years this may the best path for him? Not my area of expertise...

+1

That's the obvious move. So maybe they'll try him at RT? :)
How is moving Strange to C obvious? What am I missing? I just read his bio and scouting report. He actually started more games in college at LT than at C (a whopping total of 1). He did spend time at C during Senior Bowl week and impressed, but it seems a long way from 1 FCS start and some practice week drills to an NFL starting lineup, especially at the position that is seemingly the most cerebral of all the OLine.
 

SoxinSeattle

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Might be based on this quote. I suppose it depends on who the weakest link is when Strange is healthy.

“One hundred percent,” Mayo said when asked if the team would give Strange a look at center. “I mean, any of those interior spots. He can play guard, he can play center, and we have to get the best person out there. I think he has the ability, the physical tools to be able to do it.”
 

Cellar-Door

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How is moving Strange to C obvious? What am I missing? I just read his bio and scouting report. He actually started more games in college at LT than at C (a whopping total of 1). He did spend time at C during Senior Bowl week and impressed, but it seems a long way from 1 FCS start and some practice week drills to an NFL starting lineup, especially at the position that is seemingly the most cerebral of all the OLine.
He played 2 games at C in college, worked out there in the pre-draft process and many thought it was his future positon (in part due to his athleticism but lack of bulk)... but yeah a big part of it is that the coaches said they were potentially putting him there.
 

sezwho

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He played 2 games at C in college, worked out there in the pre-draft process and many thought it was his future positon (in part due to his athleticism but lack of bulk)... but yeah a big part of it is that the coaches said they were potentially putting him there.
I thought it was at least in part because his plus athleticism and (relative) lack of size/power would play better at C. A quick google search shows 6'4.5 310 is about avg for a center but would make a pretty small guard. If there was a concern for him coming out, it was a lack of inline power, but a corresponding plus for movement and angles. There's also an observation the he struggled to hold up against the bigger d lineman as a rookie, but when I read it closely its hard to know if is coming from Klemm or the author. Either way, he wasn't blowing anyone off the ball.
 

Cellar-Door

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I know they’ve talked a bit about playing him at C, but I have to think he’d be more valuable immediately at his usual LG position in place of Jordan.
Depends... Brown is probably worse than Jordan, so if you think you get equal production from him you'd rather him at center. Also long term who knows how long (if any) Andrews is going to be here, and they like Robinson as a project, so if Strange can show something at C....
 

Granite Sox

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Down the road I certainly agree. But plugging him in at a position he’s never played in the NFL after missing a full calendar year and with minimal practice time seems a little risky to me. *shrug*
 

Van Everyman

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Depends... Brown is probably worse than Jordan, so if you think you get equal production from him you'd rather him at center. Also long term who knows how long (if any) Andrews is going to be here, and they like Robinson as a project, so if Strange can show something at C....
Here’s what Mayo said about it – does sound like an option:

Strange, who served as the starting left guard for the bulk of the 2022 and ‘23 seasons, would theoretically return to his old spot. But there’s also been some conversation about seeing if he could play some center.

“He does have the flexibility to play center, and play guard,” Mayo said Wednesday. “He’s been getting extra work in at center. Dave Andrews has done a good job with him, as well.”
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/11/20/sports/patriots-cole-strange-return/
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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I'm going to say the same thing on the "which position does Strange play" question as I did to the "When should Maye start" question... I trust the coaching staff to make a better decision than any of us sitting at home, since they have way more information and motivation to get it right than we do
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Patriots have released starting LG Michael Jordan, who has played 87.7% of the snaps this season. In his place, they have claimed guard Lester Cotton (6-4, 325) on waivers from the Dolphins.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1861539626093015230


Cotton has been around for a few years, started 8 games for Miami last year and 10 total in his career.

I guess MJ should have stuck with basketball.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Doesn’t say great things about the likes of Sow and Robinson that they couldn’t beat out Jordan, despite the Patriots thinking so little of him they’re willingly to just casually toss him on the trash heap.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Doesn’t say great things about the likes of Sow and Robinson that they couldn’t beat out Jordan, despite the Patriots thinking so little of him they’re willingly to just casually toss him on the trash heap.
It has been noted that Sow has not looked the same since his injury. As to Jordan, he was one of their better performers early on, but his play has deteriorated.

But, yes, it is not good.
 

Cellar-Door

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More struggles today. Hopefully Strange is back next week, but also... Caedan Wallace for Jacobs would be great too.
 

Cellar-Door

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Several phantom hold calls and the team ran for over 200 yards...will take that every day
Everyone runs for 200 against IND, they stink. They had a bunch of holds and gave up too much quick pressure, particularly in the red zone.

Edit- a little unfair, it was a good run day, but key errors in the redzone killed them.
 

Jimbodandy

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I thought that Goncalves looked pretty good yesterday. SSS of course, but our meh pass rush had a total of 2 QB hits in 24 attempts. I don't remember hearing his name yesterday, which would be nice for a change here.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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The point about Michael Jordan is a good one. If you asked me what the success stories of the year w/r/t the Oline, I'd say:
  • Lowe has been better than I was prepared for, especially in pass protection, which is the most important job for a LT
  • Michael Jordan sure looks like a solid LG , especially in pass pro
  • Onwenu at RG works

The bolded part, while optimistic, has not aged well
 

BostonFanInCanesLand

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Step on up, Caeden Wallace. (Back at practice yesterday). No updates on Strange yet.

Edit: the Globe says:
The offensive line is also awaiting the potential return of Cole Strange, whose activation window opened Nov. 20. The Patriots have until Wednesday to activate him off the physically unable to perform list in order for him to play this season.

 

SMU_Sox

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I'd like to think they might have some solid backups next year but could use to fill LT, LG, C, RT.

Andrews play has been declining and he might not be back. Even if he his, his days are numbered. Strange is probably never going to be more than a mid-tier starter at best, even at C. Sow and Robinson are just so bad in pass pro they aren't starter material. Wallace couldn't beat out dreck and then was awful in his start before getting hurt. You can always have year 2 leaps but look at Sow. Also, going forward, let's remember that guys who are total ass in pass pro are not going to start long term even if they are good run blockers and PFF and Brandon Thorn like them :).
 
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I'd like to think they might have some solid backups next year but could use to fill LT, LG, C, RT.

Andrews play has been declining and he might not be back. Even if he his, his days are numbered. Strange is probably never going to be more than a mid-tier starter at best, even at C. Sow and Robinson are just so bad in pass pro they aren't starter material. Wallace couldn't beat out dreck and then was awful in his start before getting hurt. You can always have year 2 leaps but look at Sow. Also, going forward, let's remember that guys who are total ass in pass pro are not going to start long term even if they are good run blockers and PFF and Brandon Thorn like them :).
yeah they need basically a whole new offensive line - which obviously won’t happen in one offseason

I know there’s an extreme shortage of good NFL OL leaguewide but you have to start to wonder if Groh/Wolf (and their scouting guys) are part of the Pats problem here or if it’s position coaching.

Just about everyone they’ve drafted or signed has been awful. Granted, it’s mostly mid/late picks and scrap heap guys so that’s probably the bulk of it.

Lowe, who might have legitimately been the worst OT I’ve ever seen last year, is weirdly the only guy I can think of who has actually taken a step forward in his year 2 development.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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BTW, was the Onwenu extension also this past offseason? Why aren’t we talking about him, because that hardly seems like a wise one at the moment.
Onwenu is weird....He looks some combination of out of shape or just sloppy a lot of times. Could be coaching, could be lazy now that he’s paid, could be a product of playing next to trash making him look worse
I thought Onwenu was supposed to be a top 10 guard who they thought could be a starting caliber / functional RT (like top 30) in a pinch. Unfortunately, he seems like neither.
Pulling these over from the other thread

Full disclosure: I have no idea what Onwenu was supposed to be, or who thought what, or why.

In terms of what he is... he's probably in the middle 33% of starting NFL guards-- neither top twenty nor bottom twenty-- and somewhere closer to the top of that middle third than the bottom. Call that slightly above average. He's much better in pass protection than run blocking, and, I mean, if he were + at both he'd be top ten at his position. In the modern NFL if you had to choose you'd rather your OLine play better in pass pro, given the way the game is played. So, he has the profile you'd look for in a slightly-above-average starting guard.

Financially, he's making ~4% of the salary cap this year on a team with >$35M in cap space today and >$132M in cap space tomorrow.

He's also either the 3rd or 4th best offensive player on the team. (I'd put Maye and Hunter Henry as #1 and #2, with Rham/Onwenu tied for #3/#4). Now, is it an indictment of the overall roster that a slightly-above-average starting RG is your 3rd/4th best player? You bet. But that's not Onwenu's fault. Nor is he particularly overpaid for what he does.

The following isn't a reaction/criticism of your posts, since neither of you have said the hypothetical I'm about to respond to. But if someone was reading these threads and their take away was "Onwenu is an overpaid disappointment. We never should have signed him to that contract and maybe now should get rid of him" well, they'd be jumping to something close to the opposite conclusion the situation calls for.

We're a team with tons of cap space and in dire need for more starting-level players; especially on offense; especially on the offensive line. We should be looking to add those players (through draft, free agency, trades) even as those moves inevitably use up some amount of our cap space. We shouldn't be getting rid of our starting-level talent to create yet more cap space.

Onwenu and his contract are close to the bottom of the list of problems this team has. If we're so fortunate in fifteen months as to be stocked with so much talent that we need to pay for then we can move off the last year of his deal.

We're a pretty long way from there, tho
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Pulling these over from the other thread

Full disclosure: I have no idea what Onwenu was supposed to be, or who thought what, or why.

In terms of what he is... he's probably in the middle 33% of starting NFL guards-- neither top twenty nor bottom twenty-- and somewhere closer to the top of that middle third than the bottom. Call that slightly above average. He's much better in pass protection than run blocking, and, I mean, if he were + at both he'd be top ten at his position. In the modern NFL if you had to choose you'd rather your OLine play better in pass pro, given the way the game is played. So, he has the profile you'd look for in a slightly-above-average starting guard.
This is so weird to me because he made his reputation his first two seasons as being a mauler in the run game. I hate to say it, but run blocking is alot more about effort than pass blocking. I do have concern that he shifted his focus to pass blocking the last few seasons - which coincides with his dip in run blocking but growth in pass blocking - and after getting his contract (or changing head coaches...) his effort in the run game has just fallen off a cliff.

Obviously I have no idea what his effort level actually is, but I do think it's something that bears watching.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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This is so weird to me because he made his reputation his first two seasons as being a mauler in the run game
Yeah, I hear you

I don't know if this is right, but the story I'm telling myself is something like...

Onwenu was a RG coming out of Michigan, whose measurables and lack of athleticism projected him as a bit of a project as an iOL. He was 6'2" (short for a tackle) and kinda slow-footed but with good base/strength/low center of gravity/awareness. I just went and googled some of his old scouting reports, one of which said...

"Onwenu reacts to the snap well and shows good fluidity and short-area quickness for such a massive guard. He sits into his stance well in pass protection, showing a wide base, good ankle, knee, and hip flexion to capitalize on his naturally low center of gravity. Onwenu has rare strength and power... He moves well enough to mirror most interior rushers... Onwenu is easily capable of generating movement at the point of attack and has experience in multiple blocking schemes in Michigan’s “pro style” offense. He also shows very good awareness after the snap to pick up stunts, twists, and blitzes, as well as help teammates with double teams if he is left without anyone to block. ... [that said] athleticism is a major liability for Onwenu and he struggles when asked (or forced) to run more than a couple yards. He struggles to get (or stay) in front of the play when asked to pull or release into space on screen passes.... Onwenu’s lack of athleticism can show up in longer reps and he can struggle to keep up with more athletic rushers who can string together counter moves... He can also be prone to losing his balance if forced to navigate... Michael Onwenu projects... as a guard at the NFL level with starting potential in very specific circumstances. But while he has experience in a variety of blocking schemes, he does not have scheme versatility. Onwenu might be able to seize a starting job, but only if his future coach can scheme to take advantage of his rare size and power, while scheming away from his athletic limitations. Onwenu should only be asked to pull, play in space, or on the run as infrequently as possible. He will play faster than he will time thanks to good awareness and processing speed allowing him to get into position in a timely manner. In the right circumstances, Onwenu’s low center of gravity, lower-body fluidity, arm length, and rare power could make him an intriguing “anvil” to a more mobile blocker’s “hammer

Needless to say, on the Pats he hasn't been blocking next to the kind of people who can be the hammer to his anvil

Now, we all know this history, but... After Onwenu got drafted by New England in the 6th round our presumed-starting RT Marcus Cannon opted out of the 2020 season because of concerns about Covid. So Onwenu played a ton a RT his rookie year, and looked not-too-bad. But not good enough to keep the team from signing Trent Brown in the off season to play RT, such that Onwenu spent most of his sophomore campaign coming off the bench at the two guard positions, behind Shaq Mason and Ted Karras. The next off season Shaq Mason departs of Tampa Bay, and Onwenu is our starting RG more or less the whole year. RT was a musical-chairs-mess with four guys going in and out, but the team never moved Onwenu over into that mix. Last year rolled around, the team threw up their hands, declared that all four RTs from the year before had failed the audition, and moved Onwenu to RT with the rookie Sow sliding in at RG. This year has been what it's been

Anyway, one take away I'd emphasize from all the above is that Onwenu was never projected to be a tackle; he's only ever played RT out of some sense of emergency or desperation, and if the Gods are kind he will never end up back there.

This is so weird to me because he made his reputation his first two seasons as being a mauler in the run game
OK, so let me try to finally get back to the point I was trying to respond to

Mike is the only competent starter on a dumpster fire of a unit, that's part of a dumpster fire of an offense, on one of the worst teams in the league. And he once again spent a bunch of the first half of the season playing out of position because the team had only bad options.

As a former 6th round pick he's made $3.5M over his first four years in the league while putting up with all sorts of shit. If he can stay healthy and not get a career-ending anything for the next two years he can make more than ten times that ($46M). That's life changing money, for a guy and his family.

Is he giving maximum effort on running plays? Is he throwing himself around with abandon in this lost season, on a wasteland of a team? Maybe he is, and maybe he isn't. If this team got good again and he was on a strong offensive line would we suddenly see his run blocking look a lot better? Maybe we would.

I ain't gonna hassle the guy either way. He's one of the few competent starters we got. And I hope someday he lives a long, comfortable retirement with a bunch of rewarding future chapters to his life.

If that Pats are competitive again before then, so much the better
 

chilidawg

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Lazar's post game obs:

On initial viewing, this was a down game for RT Trey Jacobs, who had 16 reps vs. future Hall of Fame pass-rusher Von Miller. Jacobs allowed a team-high five pressures, had two false starts, and missed the cut block on Rousseau, which led to the fumble-six. The other pressure point was at left guard, where rookie Layden Robinson allowed three pressures. In all, Maye was under pressure on 37.2% of his drop-backs. But some of that was the Bills sending the house on several low red zone plays late in the fourth quarter that Maye took responsibility for post-game.

https://www.patriots.com/news/game-observations-eight-takeaways-from-the-patriots-competitive-loss-to-the-bills-in-week-16
 

sezwho

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That's exactly what happened! Strange had 3 snaps in yesterday's BUF 12/22 game, apparently all on the (successful) PATs.
Funny, let’s not bet against @Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache!

As I mentioned I watched live no rewind but my reaction was Brown didnt jump off the screen one way or the other. I’ll take it?

Seems like Brown is going to the one giving up reps to Strange down the stretch as they seem committed to giving Robinson every opportunity's.

Please let him be another (aka non Maye) thing that rises from the ashes of this season.
 

sezwho

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That's actually very easy to avoid, since I don't gamble...
Even easier since I don’t either :)

Technically my formerly free fantasy league (I’m sure there were side bets) has 100$ ante now and same for my friends picks league. I don’t consider myself a gambler as I don’t ’place bets’ but would happily spend the money if I win my league this season.