Unless you are a big Louisville football fan or liked watching the 4th quarter of Detroit Lions pre-season games.... no.
Offensive depth chart -- down in the trenches
- Thread starter Saints Rest
- Start date
So listen is it bad to be on your 4th string LT, 2nd string RG, 3rd string C, 2nd string RG and starting RT?
Just got to hold out until week 9 when conquering heroes Vederian Lowe and Cole Strange are back
Is there definitive news that Strange is indeed coming back? And is there a timeline that has been publicly stated?
This was all I could find Pro Football Rumors 9/29
This was all I could find Pro Football Rumors 9/29
Lastly, usual starting guard Cole Strange started the season on PUP after tearing the patellar tendon in his left knee in December last year. Around the NFL, players on NFI, PUP, and IR-designated to return lists will be eligible to start practicing. While the other two players on PUP — wide receiver Kendrick Bourne and linebacker Sione Takitaki — and the lone IR-designated to return player — safety Marte Mapu — are likely to begin their practice periods this week, Reiss does not believe Strange is ready to take that step quite yet.
nope, just that they aren't starting his clock this week, I just threw out week 9 as the likely time he's be back.
In addition to Andrews, Wallace is going to IR.
View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1842213115506630949
View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1842213115506630949
We are living through truly insane times. It's like the football version of the Actor's Nightmare, where none of the OL have practiced together or know the protection schemes, let alone the plays.
If Robinson can't go, that'll mean that over the last 3 years, the Pats:
- drafted 8 OLs (Strange, Hines, Steuber, JAndrews, Sow, Mafi, Wallace & Robinson)
- acquired 3 OLs via "normal" free agency (Reiff, Anderson, Chuks)
- traded for 2 more OLs prior to season start (Lowe, TyWheatleyJr)
and only one of them (Sow) will be playing on Sunday. 13 guys, 1 still standing, for 5 positions. That's not bad luck. That's breaking a mirror with a black cat under a ladder bad luck.
If Robinson can't go, that'll mean that over the last 3 years, the Pats:
- drafted 8 OLs (Strange, Hines, Steuber, JAndrews, Sow, Mafi, Wallace & Robinson)
- acquired 3 OLs via "normal" free agency (Reiff, Anderson, Chuks)
- traded for 2 more OLs prior to season start (Lowe, TyWheatleyJr)
and only one of them (Sow) will be playing on Sunday. 13 guys, 1 still standing, for 5 positions. That's not bad luck. That's breaking a mirror with a black cat under a ladder bad luck.
View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1842269916076138964
This is good to hear long term.
Peters says ideally they'd like Onwenu to be able to settle in at guard, but given team needs he's at tackle now.
This is good to hear long term.
Peters says ideally they'd like Onwenu to be able to settle in at guard, but given team needs he's at tackle now.
As folks have probably seen, Lowe, Robinson, and Jordan all practiced (although "limited participation") since Wednesday and are officially 'questionable' to play.
If those three are healthy enough to play our line depth might not be as ridiculously bad
If those three are healthy enough to play our line depth might not be as ridiculously bad
I think it’s come up before, but this references a potential trade target in the Jags tackle Walter Little.
As their 0-4 season circles the drain maybe we can upgrade ours? Even if he’s at RT it would mean getting that elite RG play from Onwenu to complement solid tackle play on that side: sign me up.
I hadn't seen that. Thanks for the nudge
When Little came into the league three years ago the Jags had two established Tackles: Cam Robinson on the left and Jawaan Taylor on the right. Robinson has missed a bunch of each of the last three years to injuries, with Little getting the starts on the left side when Robinson was out. Then ~18 months ago Taylor signed a big-money contract with Kansas City and the Jags replaced him with first round rookie Anton Harrison.
Robinson and Taylor are both healthy, but the former is always ~15 minutes away from missing the rest of the season and Harrison hasn't really hit his potential yet. If I'm Jacksonville, I'm not sure why I'd trade Little. He's young and good at a position of importance. Robinson is 29 and his career might not have that much left in it. Jacksonville isn't getting a first round pick for Little now, but without Little they might soon need to use a first round pick to replace Robinson
When Little came into the league three years ago the Jags had two established Tackles: Cam Robinson on the left and Jawaan Taylor on the right. Robinson has missed a bunch of each of the last three years to injuries, with Little getting the starts on the left side when Robinson was out. Then ~18 months ago Taylor signed a big-money contract with Kansas City and the Jags replaced him with first round rookie Anton Harrison.
Robinson and Taylor are both healthy, but the former is always ~15 minutes away from missing the rest of the season and Harrison hasn't really hit his potential yet. If I'm Jacksonville, I'm not sure why I'd trade Little. He's young and good at a position of importance. Robinson is 29 and his career might not have that much left in it. Jacksonville isn't getting a first round pick for Little now, but without Little they might soon need to use a first round pick to replace Robinson
Little and Robinson are both unrestricted free agents. I would guess the idea for JAX is that they would trade 1 and sign 1.
I can't see NE trading for either, but for a team competing, Little has a base of 1.6M, so the acquiring team only pays the pro-rated remained of that, which might get you a pick back.
Robinson has a base over 16M, and given it's his last year, tough to get him to re-structure to reduce that.
Neither makes sense for NE unless they could pre-arrange an extension, and I doubt either wants to do that versus testing the market, and neither (particularly Little) grades out as the kind of guy you want to overpay.
Ah-- I hadn't thought to look up their contract status. Good add.
As you say, if Jacksonville thinks that Robinson still has a several years left in him, and they're not planning to match whatever Little gets in free agency, than their motivation to make a deal looks a little clearer. On our end, if the tape is convincing that Little is a solid starter, New England can pre-arrange an agreeable contract with Little's agent, and we're talking a day-two pick to get it done... ...than gid'd'yup. I have no problem doing next summer's free agent shopping at a position of need early.
No idea how realistic this is, of course. And since we're talking about it Murphy's Law guarantees that it won't happen
I would consider it for like... a 6th? You have to overpay to get him and well... he isn't good? He's only played over 250 snaps I think one season, and that was like 600? He grades out in the Anderson/Okorafor/Reiff tier? I wouldn't trade a pick of real value to lock up a backup by paying him starting money.
Lazar says our likely line is probably:
LT Lowe LG Jordan C Leverett RG Sow/Robinson RT Onwenu
https://www.patriots.com/news/roster-analysis-patriots-activate-wr-kendrick-bourne-rule-out-s-jabrill-peppers-in-series-of-moves-for-sunday-s-game-vs-dolphins
LT Lowe LG Jordan C Leverett RG Sow/Robinson RT Onwenu
https://www.patriots.com/news/roster-analysis-patriots-activate-wr-kendrick-bourne-rule-out-s-jabrill-peppers-in-series-of-moves-for-sunday-s-game-vs-dolphins
Well that is what has arguably been the best left side all year, so not terrible.
From warmups, the Pats are moving Onwenu back to RG.
LT Lowe
LG Jordan
C Leverett
RG Onwenu
RT Jacobs
LT Lowe
LG Jordan
C Leverett
RG Onwenu
RT Jacobs
If there is anything close to representative play from Jacobs, this should be an upgrade on that side if the line. LFG Jacobs! (edit what you also said two posts ago)
Only 2 sacks. Brissett was under duress all day, though. Tons of free rushers. The run blocking was decent. They were able to pop off a few big plays.
Well, to my only slightly-trained eye it was a day of mixed results
Glass one-third-full takes
- The left side of our line (Lowe at LT and Jordan at LG) did very well in pass protection. They were largely 1:1 against the right side of the Dolphins rush and on most possessions gave Brissett more than plenty of time.
- Onwenu continues to look better at RG than he does at RT, especially going forward. A bunch of the penetration of on the right side was b/c communication/coverage issues, not physical limitations (more below)
- The line played consistently better as the game went along. If you go to the game thread, there are a bunch of posts from the second half where everyone was wailing and gnashing their teeth at Brissett badly missing the target on a downfield throw. (Like his throwing too high on the final-minute-almost-TD by Polk in the back of the end zone). Well on most of these plays Brissett was only able to make a regrettable thrown because he had the time to find someone downfield
- Three competent guys does not a strong line make. Last week we tried the (undrafted second year) 'Trey Jacobs at LT and he often looked lost and confused. This week we switched him to RT (b/c Lowe was back but Carsen injured) and it was more of the same. He's something of a feast-or-famine proposition. When he gets onto the pass rusher, his length and strength means he can really slow him down. But he also got completely blown-by both outside and inside on a bunch of plays.
- At C, Leverett got destroyed repeatedly and bowled back by a strong inside rush. He was much better last week against San Francisco. So I dunno if Miami saw something on tape that they took advantage of, or what.
- In general, the right side of our line (Leverett-Onwenu-Jacobs) did not look like they were on the same page with coverages on a bunch of plays. Now, obviously, each was playing in that spot for the first time this season and they've never played together before. Now, silver lining: most of their screw-ups that resulted in someone coming in unblocked happened in the first half. By the final Patriots' drives they were doing better at this.
- Our line got called for four penalties (two by Leverett that felt out of desperation, one by Jacobs, and one on Lowe that I thought was cheap). That said, we got *four* other blocking penalties called on TEs (Hunter Henry's head was somewhere really far up his ass yesterday), WRs, and backs. Talking about the team's overall sloppy play and penalties is probably for another thread, but it wasn't doing our offense or our line any favors.
- Put it all together, Brissett continued to be pressured on ~50% of his snaps, which is higher than you want. But, on the snaps when he wasn't pressured he had time to make a play. Which he only sometimes did.
So, maybe one irony of all this is: if you're in the "Play Maye Now" camp, then even though we lost yesterday was the kind of pass blocking you'd want to see from the left side of our line to have more confidence about putting young Jacoby our there. And if anything yesterday's game was evidence for needing a RT, not a LT.
(For the record: I'd take an upgrade a both).
Pulling this over from another thread
The point about Michael Jordan is a good one. If you asked me what the success stories of the year w/r/t the Oline, I'd say:
- Lowe has been better than I was prepared for, especially in pass protection, which is the most important job for a LT
- Michael Jordan sure looks like a solid LG , especially in pass pro
- Onwenu at RG works
- Not that it matters all that much, but Ja'Lynn Polk is one of those receivers who likes blocking downfield. Kid likes dishing it out. I tip my hat.
What we don't know yet...
- Caedan Wallace hasn't played a single snap at RT (his college position), struggled at LT, and then got injured. Take out his LT snaps and he has played well. He might well be the answer at RT, but we just don't have much to go on yet
- We don't know how much mileage David Andrews has got left
- Sow has been injured, but the one game he got into gave the impression he came back too soon. Jordan may already have taken his job.
- Layden Robinson may or may not be a bust who doesn't ever end up playing at an NFL level. His first ~250 snaps were not encouraging
- 'Trey Jacobs is an impressive athlete who, to @Cellar-Door's point, may just not be very good. You watch him move around the field with that length and athleticism and you're like "Ok, yeah, I see it." And then the balls is snapped and woof
- Nick Leverett's best role might be backup guard
- Hunter Henry should go out on pass routes. He is not a very good blocking TE
If this next year's draft is not the one in which you want to be drafting a tackle, than it would be nice to go into the offseason knowing how urgently we need one
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Thanks
Until I came back to this thread I'd forgotten that I wrote this on Monday
Until I came back to this thread I'd forgotten that I wrote this on Monday
I will now pat myself on the back for how that reads two days later
I’ll take any port in a storm, but those are typically dimensions of a tackle not a center….6’5” 315 ? Whatever, just hope he can play and doesn’t have to.
Jake Andrews also a big C.
This is just a flyer on an available guy because Nick Leverett was so very bad last week.
They just need depth honestly, Andrews done for the year, other Andrews still not practicing, Strange not practicing...they elevated Bryan Hudson last week to be the backup C but he's a rookie UDFA who I don't think they want getting game time if Leverett gets hurt (interestingly... also 6'5).
First off this is excellent. All of the hat tips to you, sir! You know who else is kicking ass blocking? Boutte. I haven't seen Boutte this bought in as a blocker in his entire career. He is looking good too as a pass catcher. He should be earning more opportunities!
The tall center thing is interesting. It can work and it can work well. I am skeptical of these guys myself because I am leery about centers with potential leverage issues. But Creed Humphrey, for example does a great job. It helps having a ton of power. Lankier guys can be hit or miss. Joe Tippman is a good example of this. He's reportedly performing better in year 2 for the Jets but he still gives up too many pressures and loses his blocks too often for a center. If that isn't fair please correct me - I am certainly not a Jets expert and only saw one of his games where I did actually give it a review.
Hey, thanks a lot. Coming from you Imma take this as high praise
I hadn't picked up on this, but will keep an eye out now.
Thanks for the flag!
Wow. Ben Brown, fresh off the wavier wire, is starting at C. That can't be ideal.
Doug Kyed: Patriots C Ben Brown took a red-eye flight from Las Vegas on Wednesday night. He was taking first-team reps in Friday's practice. Signed off the Raiders' practice squad.
View: https://twitter.com/DougKyed/status/1845501026104643689
Doug Kyed: Patriots C Ben Brown took a red-eye flight from Las Vegas on Wednesday night. He was taking first-team reps in Friday's practice. Signed off the Raiders' practice squad.
View: https://twitter.com/DougKyed/status/1845501026104643689
Anyone hear anything about how bad Robinson's injury in the second half was?
If I'm counting right, Nick Leverett was our last remaining lineman who wasn't on the field at the end of the game. No more injuries, please
If I'm counting right, Nick Leverett was our last remaining lineman who wasn't on the field at the end of the game. No more injuries, please
Do you mean Michael Jordan? Robinson did not dress. I saw a tweet that said Jordan said he felt OK. Lowe needs an MRI though.
Have to hand it to Ben Brown. Good job today for a guy who was claimed on Wednesday, had 2 practices with the team, and only one with the top unit before being thrown in as a starter and making the line calls.
Yes-- brain fart
Thanks
Completely agree on Brown. The two guys on the line who made my eyebrows go up today were Brown and Jaquelin Roy in pass rush. It would have been fair to have very low expectations for both of those guys. But they clearly exceeded them. Texas got very little pass pressure up the middle on Brown, and Maye had some of his best passes stepping up behind to avoid the outside rush. And on one of his sacks Roy bull-rushed a double-team and then spun inside around it to get to Stroud. If he can do that sort of thing a few times a game we got something here.
Roy is interesting because, even going back to LSU, he flashes tantalizing ability and he seems to be pretty high effort. But his combine measurables and performance was absolutely brutal and he’s never actually been able to be a consistent pass rusher despite showing little bursts of upside in that regard
He’s probably a guy who just isn’t quite athletic or strong enough to have much of a role in the NFL but will hang around the league for a little while because of those flashes.
Leverett released. Wonder what happened here.
View: https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1845855238420373960?s=61&t=Co5jCGjJleHGFUT1TGB4Qg
View: https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1845855238420373960?s=61&t=Co5jCGjJleHGFUT1TGB4Qg
Might be a situation where Ben Brown is the guy for the rest of the year and the Pats were doing him a favor by cutting him and letting him pick his next destination. Not a great look that Wolf's top 2 OL he signed in FA are both off the team by Columbus Day.
Pulling this over from somewhere
I'm sure this is right, and at the same time it blows my mind that 'Trey Jacobs has the 4th most snaps on the line this season. That's just painfull.Especially since Mye is left handed and so the RT is the guy guarding his blind side NVM
I'm sure this is right, and at the same time it blows my mind that 'Trey Jacobs has the 4th most snaps on the line this season. That's just painfull.
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Maye is right handed.
View: https://twitter.com/Boorish_Sports/status/1845805484252528671
I am wondering 1) how Zach Thomas looked at LT and whether he can slide over to RT if/when Lowe is back, 2) whether there is a T equivalent of Ben Brown languishing on someone's practice squad that the Pats can try to snap up.
Good god, how did I get in my head that he was left handed? I might be getting old. And spent most of yesterday watching the line and receiver matchups...Maye is right handed.
Thank god this board keeps you honest
Kind of odd given they can't get guys to stay healthy for more than a week at a time. Maybe means Strange will start his clock?
And agreed on Wolf. This is the criticism. There were not a lot of moves to be made, but the ones he chose were not great. (I do like Gibson, FWIW.)
I have to assume this is a prelude to another move
Leverett was a really cheap and low-risk roll of the dice on whether an interior lineman in his 4th year in the league could make a mini-leap and turn into a serviceable starter. I think the team's hope was that if he worked out you had a cheap Dave Andrews insurance/replacement. It did not work out.
Ben Brown played the way they were hoping Leverett would, and is clearly the C going forward
Right now the I'd pencil in the starters for next week as:
- LT - Lowe (currently officially questionable, fingers crossed he's back and healthy)
- LG - Jordan
- C - Brown
- RG - Onwenu
- RT - 'Trey Jacobs or Zach Thomas
So, I'm kinda guessing they're going to go looking for another C, perhaps off someone's practice squad, who ideally can also backup the G spots. Someone who presumably played the position in college, so they can reliable snap the ball.