Offensive depth chart -- down in the trenches

Cellar-Door

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What happened to Sidy Sow man.... he was okay last year. Today he came in for Robinson and the line collapsed.
 

SMU_Sox

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What happened to Sidy Sow man.... he was okay last year. Today he came in for Robinson and the line collapsed.
He was good last year as a run blocker. He was not good last year in pass pro. Now he’s just bad at both. He’s not 100% FWIW.
 

Gash Prex

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I thought the OL (especially the pass pro) was respectable against the Jets. Looks like a decent combo up front and no major injuries
 

Cellar-Door

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I thought the OL (especially the pass pro) was respectable against the Jets. Looks like a decent combo up front and no major injuries
I thought Brown and Jordan were bad, worse in run game, but generally bad.

Lowe was surprisingly good.
 

Granite Sox

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Not good, but not as bad as many weeks this season. Hopefully something they can build on, though Jeffery Simmons has killed them in the past (good luck, MJ and Brown). Running game stunk, but ‘Mondre doesn’t look healthy.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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Cribbing from the concept of @Eddie Jurak's other 'where are we after week 8' thread

About half way through the regular season, what do we seem to have in our OLine? I'd take a stab at summarizing the situation as...

All Pro and/or "Top Third" Starters
  • none

Average ("Middle Third") Starters
  • Onwenu, RG

Low-End ("Bottom Third") Starters
  • Lowe, LT
  • Brown [/Dixon], C
  • Michael Jordan, LG, solid in pass pro/weak going forward
Lowe has been serviceable. If he got better in the running game I'd move him up to the middle-tier group. Brown and Jordan are somewhere close to the bottom of the 'starter quality' guys at their positions (e.g. 20-30th best center who's played meaningful snaps; 45-65th best guard). Both Lowe and Jordan are better in pass pro than on running plays, which is the tradeoff I'd take on the left side of the line if we had to take one.

Situational / Backups
  • Layden Robinson, G, solid extra lineman in running plays/bad at pass pro

Incomplete / Unknown
  • Sow, G -- has been out, then playing injured and looking awful after a solid rookie campaign
  • Caedan Wallace, RT -- haven't seen him at his position yet
  • Cole Strange, ? - the mystery man
  • Zach Thomas, G -- probably a backup
  • Dave Andrews, C -- we'll see what he has left when he comes back

Not an NFL player
  • 'Trey Jacobs

Edit: added Strange
 
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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Its obviously a poor OL but that breakdown also shows that the path to having an average to slightly below line in 2025 really isn't that difficult. Throw the bag at Ronnie Stanley or Garrett Bolles, hope Wallace develops into at least a low level RT starter (or competing with Lowe to start at RT or be the swing), and then hit on a day two pick of an interior lineman and you've got a line that is perfectly serviceable for 2025, even with a little depth.
 
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Its obviously a poor OL but that breakdown also shows that the path to having an average to slightly below line in 2025 really isn't that difficult. Throw the bag at Ronnie Stanley or Garrett Bolles, hope Wallace develops into at least a low level RT starter (or competing with Lowe to start at RT or be the swing), and then hit on a day two pick of an interior lineman and you've got a line that is perfectly serviceable for 2025, even with a little depth.
the chances of Stanley or Bolles leaving Baltimore/Denver seem really unlikely. They will probably get tagged. If not, I don’t see the Pats offering a massive deal for Bolles (age) or Stanley (durability / inconsistency). Seems way too risky for Wolf.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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the chances of Stanley or Bolles leaving Baltimore/Denver seem really unlikely. They will probably get tagged. If not, I don’t see the Pats offering a massive deal for Bolles (age) or Stanley (durability / inconsistency). Seems way too risky for Wolf.
I'm not so sure about these players getting the tag at their age/production. Its really rare for teams to tag players in their 30s. The Ravens also have very little cap space.

I'd be more worried about them taking a hometown discount before free agency and then our ability to make the most attractive offer on the open market if they do get there. But I think there's a decent chance of us having a shot at least one of them. Whether Wolf is willing to offer the bag is another thing but there's so much cap space he almost has to do a few huge deals, even just to end up rolling over a similar amount to last offseason.
 

Jimbodandy

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Its obviously a poor OL but that breakdown also shows that the path to having an average to slightly below line in 2025 really isn't that difficult. Throw the bag at Ronnie Stanley or Garrett Bolles, hope Wallace develops into at least a low level RT starter (or competing with Lowe to start at RT or be the swing), and then hit on a day two pick of an interior lineman and you've got a line that is perfectly serviceable for 2025, even with a little depth.
The last few weeks have shown some signs here and there of a hint at a future offensive line here, with maybe only a couple of pieces needed (rather than 80% rebuild). Agree with CD that Brown and Jordan were bad, but the former gets points for falling on that fumble. Overall their inconsistency is awful, and the bad plays are still uproariously bad, but they're now able to string together a few good plays. Reasons for optimism I guess.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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And the latter gets points for cleaning up a Mike O whiff on the 4th and goal, to give just enough room for Rham to get in (see: game ball thread).
 

Eddie Jurak

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Here's our line by percentage of offensive snaps through Week 8:

1. Onwenu, RG/RT, 100% - top (internal) FA signing
2. Jordan, LG, 81% - practice squad to start season
3. Jacobs, RT/LT, 66% - start of season waiver claim
4. Robinson, RG, 53% - 4th round pick
5. Lowe, LT, 51% - backup T to start season; team's currently best LT; missed several games with injury
6. D. Andrews, C, 39% - starting C to start season, injured in game 4 and out for year
7. Brown, C, 38% - claimed off someone's practice squad mid week and has played every snap at C since
8. Leverett, C, 23% - backup C to start season, was terrible filling in for Andrews, cut
9. Sow, LG/RG, 23% - was slated to start at LG but was injured and has never looked right
10. Thomas, G/T, 17% - start of season waiver claim, listed at G, but has most of his snaps at LT filling in for an injured owe and not looking good
11.Wallace, T, 14% - 3rd round pick; injured in his first start and on IR, but may return
12. Okorafor, T, 2% - started game 1 at LT, but quickly got himself benched and packed it in
13. L. Smith, G, <1% - claimed off someone's practice squad the week after Brown but has only played as an extra lineman in blocking situations
 

Jimbodandy

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My somewhat hot take..... the offensive coaching on this team has been good. The talent and injury situation is an apocalypse, yet they've combined O-line coaching and playcalling to make a servicable pass pro unit. AVP and Peters are doing good work.
To the eyeball test, the line has gotten better as the year went on. At least appreciably better in the last 3-4 weeks than the first few. It's all you can ask from the offensive coaching--making the best possible meal out of the groceries bought.
 

chilidawg

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To the eyeball test, the line has gotten better as the year went on. At least appreciably better in the last 3-4 weeks than the first few. It's all you can ask from the offensive coaching--making the best possible meal out of the groceries bought.
Oddly the run blocking has gotten worse as the pass blocking has gotten better. Stevenson had 59 yards after contact last game but only 48 yards net, meaning he was getting hit behind the line consistently. Could be the change in personnel.
 

Cellar-Door

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Oddly the run blocking has gotten worse as the pass blocking has gotten better. Stevenson had 59 yards after contact last game but only 48 yards net, meaning he was getting hit behind the line consistently. Could be the change in personnel.
I don't think it's that odd... 3/5ths of the line is different, and all of them are more passblockers than run blockers when compared with the players they replaced
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah the personnel difference plus, I think, probably emphasis. They had a lot to work on communication-wise, and Rome wasn't built in a day. Mostly the personnel differences though.

Someday would be phat to have guys who can do both well, but if we have to pick, probably would rather legit pass-blockers for now.
 

Saints Rest

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Oddly the run blocking has gotten worse as the pass blocking has gotten better. Stevenson had 59 yards after contact last game but only 48 yards net, meaning he was getting hit behind the line consistently. Could be the change in personnel.
From the Lazar article linked upthread:
Pats RBs averaged just 2.2 yards per attempt with -31 yards before contact. Over the last three weeks, here are their yards before contact numbers: -5, -2, -31. In that span, the Pats are 30th in EPA (-0.29), 31st in rushing success rate (24.1%), and last in average yards before contact (-0.6). In all, they have just two (!) rushes over five yards by running backs since Week 6.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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Folks have probably seen this, since it's by Evan Lazer, but it's an interesting breakdown of the final running play of the Jets game, with some commentary by different Pats

The whole "hey the RG and RT didn't effectively block anyone before falling on their faces but that's OK because we had guys coming behind them" is kinda true but kinda not.

Main takeaway is still great job by Rham getting the hardest yard
 

ShaneTrot

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I was of the opinion that they had too many guards because they had Sow, Robinson, Onwenu, and Jordan with the possible return of Cole Strange from the PUP list. Now, my opinion is that every one of these guys except Onwenu sucks. These guys get no movement in the running game, and they all except Jordan get worked in the passing game.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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I was of the opinion that they had too many guards because they had Sow, Robinson, Onwenu, and Jordan with the possible return of Cole Strange from the PUP list. Now, my opinion is that every one of these guys except Onwenu sucks. These guys get no movement in the running game, and they all except Jordan get worked in the passing game.
I'm not disagreeing with you here. But for context:
  • Sow is a second year player who's been injured most of the season
  • Layden Robinson is a 4th round rookie who wasn't projected to come out of college as NFL starter-ready
  • Robinson Michael Jordanwas cut by three teams in four years before he came to the Pats and was on our practice squad until the third week of the season
That we're playing all three is more a sign of desperation than anything else
 
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cshea

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Only Jordan is really playing at this point (I think that is who you are referring too with the 3rd point).

Sow only gets on the field as a fullback. Robinson didn't play against the Jets. He played yesterday but was pulled after 21 plays.

I'm not really sure why they messed with what had been their best OL combination of the year. Dating back to the Houston game they were on to something with Lowe - Jordan - Brown - Onwenu - Jacobs line. Those 5 put forth the best line performance of the year against the Jets...and they went ahead and messed around moving Onwenu outside and putting Robinson in at RG (against Jeffrey Simmons no less). The results were predictable and they reverted back to Onwenu - Jacobs on the right side after 21 plays.

I also think we are finding out why Ben Brown was on a practice squad mid-year.
 

Cellar-Door

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Only Jordan is really playing at this point (I think that is who you are referring too with the 3rd point).

Sow only gets on the field as a fullback. Robinson didn't play against the Jets. He played yesterday but was pulled after 21 plays.

I'm not really sure why they messed with what had been their best OL combination of the year. Dating back to the Houston game they were on to something with Lowe - Jordan - Brown - Onwenu - Jacobs line. Those 5 put forth the best line performance of the year against the Jets...and they went ahead and messed around moving Onwenu outside and putting Robinson in at RG (against Jeffrey Simmons no less). The results were predictable and they reverted back to Onwenu - Jacobs on the right side after 21 plays.

I also think we are finding out why Ben Brown was on a practice squad mid-year.
My guess on the lineup change is that they were trying to get the run game going. Robinson is a better run blocker than Jacobs (or Brown, or Jordan) and Onwenu is the best run blocker.

I'll also say, I don't think the O-line was good for those 2 weeks, they just played some really subpar pass rushes.
 

rodderick

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Robinson has been shit at this point, I guess at 2-7 it doesn't hurt to give him every chance to develop and eventually show something, but the fact that they're moving Onwenu around to make room for him specifically seems insane to me.
 

cshea

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Robinson has been shit at this point, I guess at 2-7 it doesn't hurt to give him every chance to develop and eventually show something, but the fact that they're moving Onwenu around to make room for him specifically seems insane to me.
Yeah and they pulled Robinson last week after 21 snaps. The interior line has sucked recently but as Lazar said, I'd rather give Sow some run to see if he can regain form rather than moving Onwenu to the left. Sow was at least decent last season before getting hurt in the final pre-season game this year. He's been a train wreck too but at least there is some track record of decent play.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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Obviously, a bunch of fans have already written off a bunch of the OLine, and talk about them as if all they'll ever be is a continuation of what they've been.

At the same time, this feels like the team walking a particular kind of walk following all the earlier "draft and develop" talk

Robinson was a flawed 4th round iOL pick a few months ago. The versions of those guys that work out are often a lot better and much closer to their ceiling somewhere around year 3 and 4 than they are in year 1. And often what helps that success story happen is that they get enough snaps in their rookie year to work on things and get clear what they to improve on in the off season.

He's been pretty bad in pass protection so far this year. @SMU_Sox and @Cellar-Door have both written a bunch of insightful, football-term-y-filled things about this. What will it take for him to get better and how likely is this? That's above my pay grade and understanding of how OLinemen do and don't get better.

This front office and coaching staff has shown they willing to cut bait with people who they don't see as having a future with the team. So far this season three guys (Chuks, Nick Leverett, Zach Thomas) have gone from starting a game to gone pretty quickly.

It would a little crazy to cut bait with a 4th round rookie the way the team did with those three. But keeping someone on the roster doesn't require you to move people around to start him at his most promising future position.
 
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Saints Rest

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Robinson has been shit at this point, I guess at 2-7 it doesn't hurt to give him every chance to develop and eventually show something, but the fact that they're moving Onwenu around to make room for him specifically seems insane to me.
Extra insane if their real LG is on his way back from PUP. I fear that this move may suggest we won't see Strange at all this year.
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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the fact that they're moving Onwenu around to make room for him specifically seems insane to me
Extra insane if their real LG is on his way back from PUP
So obviously I know no more or less about what's in the coaching staff and front offices' heads than anyone else around here

That said, this reads to me like something you do if you place a really high priority on (i) going into next offseason having as good a sense as possible of the strengths/weaknesses/potential of the (especially younger) players on the roster; and (ii) those players getting enough game experience that they and their individual coaches can come up with a really effective off-season developmental plan

And that compared to those two it's a lower short-term priority to play your known commodities (like Onwenu) at what you see as their best future position
 

BostonFanInCanesLand

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So obviously I know no more or less about what's in the coaching staff and front offices' heads than anyone else around here

That said, this reads to me like something you do if you place a really high priority on (i) going into next offseason having as good a sense as possible of the strengths/weaknesses/potential of the (especially younger) players on the roster; and (ii) those players getting enough game experience that they and their individual coaches can come up with a really effective off-season developmental plan

And that compared to those two it's a lower short-term priority to play your known commodities (like Onwenu) at what you see as their best future position
Yes it's a good sign that they're getting green players enough experience to evaluate them (and that they've been aggressive in cutting deadweight). And they're lucky that their rookie QB is mobile enough so that the constant shuffling hasn't gotten him killed.

In some ways it's the exact opposite of what Dante's OL used to be. The Pats O-line found a unit and stuck with it (even when individuals had bad games) - valuing continuity over potential marginal individual performance gains.

I don't love moving Onwenu and I agree that Sow should get another look but it's more data and who's to say they won't dust Sow off next week. Query whether the data on individuals is reliable when the parts are constantly moving.

As for IR folks it may be that if Strange comes back this season he plays LG or they may try him at center.

I hope Wallace returns so they can try him at RT (next to RG onwenu).
 

rodderick

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So obviously I know no more or less about what's in the coaching staff and front offices' heads than anyone else around here

That said, this reads to me like something you do if you place a really high priority on (i) going into next offseason having as good a sense as possible of the strengths/weaknesses/potential of the (especially younger) players on the roster; and (ii) those players getting enough game experience that they and their individual coaches can come up with a really effective off-season developmental plan

And that compared to those two it's a lower short-term priority to play your known commodities (like Onwenu) at what you see as their best future position
But one not so slight concern I have is precisely that Onwenu's play has been uninspiring at best this season. I'd much rather try and get him sorted out into what they believe to be his best position than to move people so that Robinson gets as many snaps as possible at RG.
 

cshea

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Yeah, I'd probably just leave Onwenu at RG where he is most comfortable and generally most effective. Moving him around a bunch seems like a bad way to get him on track. They were forced to play him at RT at thimes because of all the injuries but with Lowe back the tackles are stable to some degree (I realize they aren't good). Jordan are Robinson are really struggling. I'd probably give Sow another crack at LG and try to piece it together amongst the 3 of them.

Strange said this week he was at the homestretch of his rehab. There's only 8 games left and I assume that even when they start his clock it'll take the max before he's a gameday active. Even if he returns next week to practice, he's realistically only going to play 4 to 5 games at the absolute most.
 

chilidawg

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Obviously, a bunch of fans have already written off a bunch of the OLine, and talk about them as if all they'll ever be is a continuation of what they've been.

At the same time, this feels like the team walking a particular kind of walk following all the earlier "draft and develop" talk

Robinson was a flawed 4th round iOL pick a few months ago. The versions of those guys that work out are often a lot better and much closer to their ceiling somewhere around year 3 and 4 than they are in year 1. And often what helps that success story happen is that they get enough snaps in their rookie year to work on things and get clear what they to improve on in the off season.

He's been pretty bad in pass protection so far this year. @SMU_Sox and @Cellar-Door have both written a bunch of insightful, football-term-y-filled things about this. What will it take for him to get better and how likely is this? That's above my pay grade and understanding of how OLinemen do and don't get better.

This front office and coaching staff has shown they willing to cut bait with people who they don't see as having a future with the team. So far this season three guys (Chuks, Nick Leverett, Zach Thomas) have gone from starting a game to gone pretty quickly.

It would a little crazy to cut bait with a 4th round rookie the way the team did with those three. But keeping someone on the roster doesn't require you to move people around to start him at his most promising future position.
I'm guessing they see something they like in Robinson as they keep pushing to get him in the lineup, only to find nope not ready yet.
 

mcpickl

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For the love of God, just leave Onwenu at RG.

Quit trying to fix problems, by creating other problems.