Omer Asik

Jer

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
But I don't really see Asik as a great fit for this team, in the short or long term.  Will Sully guard 4s on the perimeter now?  That should be interesting.  It probably also means fewer minutes, or at least little hope of more minutes, for KO and Vitor.
 
I agree that it won't help Olynyk or Faverani's development. However I would think Sully guarding his natural position would be a net positive. He's a bit short to be guarding centers. Doesn't he have to figure out how to guard PFs full-time? The rotation he's been part of this season is a bit of an anomaly.
 
I think this move would actually make the Celtics a tough team this year. They could even push 40 wins if Rondo returned to form. Of course that won't help any lottery aspirations.
 
If this deal is real, I really hope it's the Clippers pick and that Danny sees a clear way to flip Asik again at the trade deadline.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Brickowski said:
If you look at the numbers that Jeff Van Gully posted earlier in this thread, you have just traded Bass, Lee and a protected first for a healthy (presumably)Turkish Kendrick Perkins.
 
Asik is a much better defender than Perkins ever was. Perkins is pretty much purely a post defender; Asik is a very good defensive anchor that protects the rim. As Zach Lowe put it:
 
 
All the evidence suggests that any team that plays Asik for 30 minutes a game will have an elite defense over those 30 minutes, and one that protects the basket very well. The evidence also suggests such rim protection is an essential ingredient in building a championship contender.
 
 
Perkins on his own could not anchor an elite defense, he was merely a solid compliment to Garnett.
 

Brickowski

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Well, let's see how Asik does, if the deal goes through. BTW, if I were Ainge I'd now be trying to flip Asik and Bogans to the Lakers for Pau Gasol.
 

Scoops Bolling

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I'm kind of surprised to see the negativity here. Lee is useless and we get out of the last two years of his contract, so that's just plain gravy. Bass is at the apex of his value while Asik's is at its nadir, which is exactly the kind of move you want to be making. The Celtics can still flip Asik if they want, and they can play him more minutes than the Rockets could so he'll have plenty of time to rebuild his value for the deadline. Overall, we move two assets that looked like major negatives at the beginning of the year, and get an asset back at a scarce position that we can still flip down the line, and all we're out is one 1st (which I have to imagine would be that Clippers pick). Hard to be all too upset here.
 

ifmanis5

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
Perkins on his own could not anchor an elite defense, he was merely a solid compliment to Garnett.
Neither can Asik outside of a Thibs scheme. His defense is good, and better than Perk was by himself, but it's not Roy Hibbert/Marc Gasol/Dwight Howard in his prime good. I'm happy to have him for Bass and Lee, nice deal, but Bill Russell he is not. Most of his rep is based on his Chicago tenure and that's a lot of Thibs.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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ifmanis5 said:
Neither can Asik outside of a Thibs scheme. His defense is good, and better than Perk was by himself, but it's not Roy Hibbert/Marc Gasol/Dwight Howard in his prime good. I'm happy to have him for Bass and Lee, nice deal, but Bill Russell he is not. Most of his rep is based on his Chicago tenure and that's a lot of Thibs.
 
Sure, he's not Hibbert, Gasol, or Dwight, but he's available and they're not. And he was worth 6 points per 100 possessions to the Rockets last year which is nothing to sneeze at, and this year, in limited minutes, when he's on the floor the Rockets allow 96.9 points per 100 possessions. That would be first in the league by a large margin. He's also a huge upgrade over anybody on the Celtics roster when it comes to rim protection. 
 

Devizier

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Bass and Lee are the definition of fungible midlevel players. They can be contributors on a good team (which the Rockets are) or lead players on a bad team (which the Celtics are). I don't love Asik, but a trade for him would accomplish the Celtics' short term goal of tanking (by depriving the team of two rotation players and replacing them with a bad fit for the current roster) and long term goal of having a center who doesn't completely suck.
 
Dec 13, 2013
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I like this if its the Brooklyn pick. That was going to be a 20s pick anyway.
 
As for fit - isn't Asik and Sullinger a good pairing?
 

Nick Kaufman

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Perhaps Danny looking at the way we re winning this year is in fact eschewing tanking and adopting a tactic that's more akin to the one Houston followed the past few years. Have a lot of decent personnel, perform EV+ trades, when the time comes make a big trade that brings a star or sign one up on FA.

As things are going, it seems to me unlikely that we are going to be among the top 5 ping pong ownwers. OTOH, you can argue that Rondo, Green, Asik can be excellent starters in a contending team, while players like Sullinger, Olynic and Crawford provides young talent out of which either a very good starter may emerge or they can be used as pieces towards trading a star.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Devizier said:
Bass and Lee are the definition of fungible midlevel players. They can be contributors on a good team (which the Rockets are) or lead players on a bad team (which the Celtics are). I don't love Asik, but a trade for him would accomplish the Celtics' short term goal of tanking (by depriving the team of two rotation players and replacing them with a bad fit for the current roster) and long term goal of having a center who doesn't completely suck.
 
All well and good except that tanking only works if we keep our own pick.
 

Devizier

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
All well and good except that tanking only works if we keep our own pick.
 
When it comes to draft picks, Ainge hasn't been much of a seller, unless the player coming back is Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett. 
 
I'm pretty sure he's got that much figured out.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Brickowski said:
And even if they are not tanking, 2014 is a deep draft.
 
Yeah, that's what I hate about this.
 
Devizier said:
 
When it comes to draft picks, Ainge hasn't been much of a seller, unless the player coming back is Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett. 
 
I'm pretty sure he's got that much figured out.
 
True.  My guess is that Danny is savvy enough to hold firm here but maybe that's wishful thinking.
 
It certainly seems like the Rockets need to move Asik a lot more than we need to acquire him, so you'd think we'd have the upper hand in negotiations.
 
Dec 13, 2013
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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
Yeah, that's what I hate about this.
 
 
True.  My guess is that Danny is savvy enough to hold firm here but maybe that's wishful thinking.
 
It certainly seems like the Rockets need to move Asik a lot more than we need to acquire him, so you'd think we'd have the upper hand in negotiations.
 
Well I'd guess that's the reason for Morey's well-publicized "deadline" to deal Asik this week.
 
They have to trade him, and they don't want to work this against the real trade deadline where everyone knows they have to trade him.
 
DA is a hustler. I trust he's not going to get ripped off.
 

radsoxfan

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Add me to the group saying this is a good trade, if it's as reported (and the 1st round pick is not ours in 2014). Hopefully the Clippers pick next season.
 
Bass and Lee are completely replaceable, and of no real use on a rebuilding team. You could argue dumping Bass and Lee alone (in particular Lee's 3 years) is worth giving up a lottery protected 1st rounder on its own.  Asik makes a lot of money next season, but his cap hit is around 8M. If Wyc doesn't care, I don't care.
 
We also have a ton of power forwards and no centers. Asik would pair nicely with Sullinger, and has consistently posted 20+ rebound rates. He's a better rebounder and defender than Perk ever was, so that comparison is way off.  Also.... Perk wasn't always comically terrible. He had a few solid seasons in there before he turned into stone.
 
If Asik fits in well, he could be part of the future.  If he doesn't, he's a 2 year commitment and we just got out of Lee's salary in 2015/2016.  That's a win-win.  Now.... to find someone to take on Gerald Wallace.  We need someone significantly dumber than Morey to complete that mission.
 

ifmanis5

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Grin&MartyBarret said:
He's also a huge upgrade over anybody on the Celtics roster when it comes to rim protection. 
Yup. I'm not a huge fan of the guy but for Bass & Lee and a lesser 1st rounder it's a huge improvement.
 

ifmanis5

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Sure it improves the roster, but I thought the idea was to get worse- not better? Giving up a first rounder to acquire a player who won't be on the next good Celtic team seems nuts to me. I don't get these rumors.
Given how epically terrible the Eastern Conference is, perhaps the next good Celtics team is coming a lot sooner than we all thought.
 
Dec 13, 2013
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ifmanis5 said:
Given how epically terrible the Eastern Conference is, perhaps the next good Celtics team is coming a lot sooner than we all thought.
 
Personally, if the Celtics are going to field a more entertaining and competitive team, and decrease their chances of drafting a generational player in 2014 from 1% to 0.5%, that's perfectly fine with me.
 
I get that no one wins a championship without a generational player but losing a bunch of games isn't necessarily going to get you that, even with this reportedly "loaded" draft (I'm not really convinced of it yet).
 

southshoresoxfan

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Next time DA loses a trade will be the first. Zero chance the first from this year is included. MAYBE the Doc pick, and he might he even be angling for a Terrance Jones type player in return for that pick.  As stated, this deal benefits Hou more than Bos, why not hold their feet to the fire a little?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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BigSoxFan said:
My thoughts are basically this:
 
2015 Clippers Pick: Good trade
 
2014 Nets/Hawks Pick: Very lukewarm
 
2014 Celtics Pick: I grab my pitchfork and begin my march to the TD Garden
 
I actually think trading the Nets pick is not much different than trading the Clips pick and maybe actually better.  Either Atlanta or Brooklyn will be good enough so that pick will land around the 19-22 range with very little upside beyond that.  The Clips pick is likely to be slightly worse (22-27 probably) but there is more upside because a CP3 injury could actually put it in the lottery. 
 
Basically, I just want no part of trading our own pick or any of the future unprotected Nets picks that could have huge payoffs.
 
I don't see Asik as much of an asset given his contract so the deal is really about getting out from under Bass/Lee and what we're paying to do that in terms of draft pick compensation. 
 

Ed Hillel

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My thoughts are basically this:

2015 Clippers Pick: Good trade

2014 Nets/Hawks Pick: Very lukewarm

2014 Celtics Pick: I grab my pitchfork and begin my march to the TD Garden


If the C's get Asik, what's to say the third option will be a better pick than the second?
 

The Social Chair

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Jeff Van GULLY said:
Washburn says it's close for Bass/Lee/1st with Celtics not wanting to give up their own 2014 1st. 
 
Trading their own 1st round pick for Asik is insanity. I wouldn't even want to trade the Clippers or Nets/Hawks pick for him.
 

Cellar-Door

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Sure it improves the roster, but I thought the idea was to get worse- not better? Giving up a first rounder to acquire a player who won't be on the next good Celtic team seems nuts to me. I don't get these rumors.
Who says he won;t? he has 2 years left and an extension is reasonable. He's also certainly young enough to be a player going forward. A team next year of Rondo, SG (Bradley, Crawford, Draftee?) Jeff Green, Sullinger, Asik, with Olynyk, Favorani, pressey, whoever doesn't make that SG rotation, a probably MLE guy and Wallace, is probably the 4 or 5 seed next year.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Cellar-Door said:
Who says he won;t? he has 2 years left and an extension is reasonable. He's also certainly young enough to be a player going forward. A team next year of Rondo, SG (Bradley, Crawford, Draftee?) Jeff Green, Sullinger, Asik, with Olynyk, Favorani, pressey, whoever doesn't make that SG rotation, a probably MLE guy and Wallace, is probably the 4 or 5 seed next year.
 
Hell, Rondo-Bradley-Green-Sully-Asik is probably the 4 seed THIS year
 

Blacken

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Cellar-Door said:
Who says he won;t? he has 2 years left and an extension is reasonable. He's also certainly young enough to be a player going forward. A team next year of Rondo, SG (Bradley, Crawford, Draftee?) Jeff Green, Sullinger, Asik, with Olynyk, Favorani, pressey, whoever doesn't make that SG rotation, a probably MLE guy and Wallace, is probably the 4 or 5 seed next year.
A 4/5 seed who can't win anything and doesn't have worthwhile trade assets. Great place to be. Great place.
 

The Social Chair

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Cellar-Door said:
Who says he won;t? he has 2 years left and an extension is reasonable. He's also certainly young enough to be a player going forward. A team next year of Rondo, SG (Bradley, Crawford, Draftee?) Jeff Green, Sullinger, Asik, with Olynyk, Favorani, pressey, whoever doesn't make that SG rotation, a probably MLE guy and Wallace, is probably the 4 or 5 seed next year.
 
That lineup would be fighting for an 8th seed in a strong conference. The gap between that team and the Heat/Pacers is laughably large. I don't mind fighting for a lower playoff spot on a team full of young building blocks, but this team has one young promising player (Sully), and I'm not sure he has an all star ceiling yet.  

These are kind of moves a franchise like the Bucks make.
 

Devizier

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radsoxfan said:
We also have a ton of power forwards and no centers. Asik would pair nicely with Sullinger, and has consistently posted 20+ rebound rates. He's a better rebounder and defender than Perk ever was, so that comparison is way off.  Also.... Perk wasn't always comically terrible. He had a few solid seasons in there before he turned into stone.
 
If Asik fits in well, he could be part of the future.  If he doesn't, he's a 2 year commitment and we just got out of Lee's salary in 2015/2016.  That's a win-win.  Now.... to find someone to take on Gerald Wallace.  We need someone significantly dumber than Morey to complete that mission.
 
I'll also add to this by saying that there are only about fifteen centers that are regular starters in the league. Meaning that there's a ton of mediocrity at the position.
 
Because of the scarcity of talent at the position (same now, as always) you have to pay up to get a really good one (let's go with Chandler, Gasol, Hibbert, and Howard in that group). 
 
Asik doesn't come at any discount, but there's something to be said for paying market value.  It sure beats paying out large, long-term contracts to guys like Bynum or McGee.
 

Jer

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Blacken said:
A 4/5 seed who can't win anything and doesn't have worthwhile trade assets. Great place to be. Great place.
 
Presumably they'd still have the Brooklyn picks and Sullinger should be a nice trading chip if the right opportunity presents itself.
 

Cellar-Door

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Blacken said:
A 4/5 seed who can't win anything and doesn't have worthwhile trade assets. Great place to be. Great place.
Huh? It is a 4 seed with upcoming cap space, owed a ton of firsts.
It involves an all-star caliber PG, a very good young PF, a top defensive C, and likely a player in the lottery of this draft. It has more cap space than the current team (I doubt Asik gets extended at more than the combined Bass and Lee deals). Wallace is one year closer to expiring and assuming they move the BKN/ATL pick, still has 2 future BKN picks, and the LAC pick. How much better of a scenario can they get?
No one is going to trade high unprotected draft picks, or good players under 25 for what we have, a big FA signing isn't possible for several years. Moving one late 20s pick to get a mid twenties established NBA center and save cap space while losing zero players that help the team is a nice move.
 

Devizier

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Also, unlike many around here, I don't think acquiring Asik for Bass and Lee would improve the current roster's win total. The trade means less floor spacing and more Marshon Brooks, and I don't think that's going to help the Celtics win much.
 

southshoresoxfan

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lol who said no assets? A rondo expiring, Asik expiring, Green at 2/18 after this year, a gluttony of picks plus cost controlled Bradley and Sully? No assets? Really?
 

cumicon

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I don't like any deal that includes a first round pick unless Ainge is really swinging for the fences and has a another trade for a star (Carmelo?) lined up.  I just don't see the point in giving up any assets for a chance to reach the second round of the playoffs and lose to Indiana or Miami.
 

scottyno

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Blacken said:
A 4/5 seed who can't win anything and doesn't have worthwhile trade assets. Great place to be. Great place.
brooklyns future 1sts look like pretty damn good assets right about now
 

Brickowski

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Tanking should not be part of the discussion this year unless there are injuries to key players, e.g. Sullinger. Stevens is too good, and the rest of the EC is bad. Ainge could completely screw up the roster and they could still win 35 games.

The key issue for me is what might turn the C's into a 50 win team 2-3 years from now, given that they won't be picking in the top ten. I'm not sure that giving up a useful pick for Asik is the way to get there. Maybe I'm underrating him, and his trade value, but maybe not.
 

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cumicon said:
I don't like any deal that includes a first round pick unless Ainge is really swinging for the fences and has a another trade for a star (Carmelo?) lined up.  I just don't see the point in giving up any assets for a chance to reach the second round of the playoffs and lose to Indiana or Miami.
Depends on the pick obviously, but either this year's ATL/BKN pick or the LAC pick seem most likely. What are the odds either by draft or by trade that pick turns into something better than Omer Asik at the beginning of his prime. I'd guess it is pretty low.
 

nattysez

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Brickowski said:
Tanking should not be part of the discussion this year unless there are injuries to key players, e.g. Sullinger. Stevens is too good, and the rest of the EC is bad. Ainge could completely screw up the roster and they could win 35 games.

 
 
Agreed.  Take a look at the standings.  There are 13 teams with worse records than the Celtics right now, and I doubt the Celts will get passed by more than 3 of them going forward (the Nets being the most likely candidate).  Tanking is pointless.
 
Dec 13, 2013
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Brickowski said:
Tanking should not be part of the discussion this year unless there are injuries to key players, e.g. Sullinger. Stevens is too good, and the rest of the EC is bad. Ainge could completely screw up the roster and they could still win 35 games.

The key issue for me is what might turn the C's into a 50 win team 2-3 years from now, given that they won't be picking in the top ten. I'm not sure that giving up a useful pick for Asik is the way to get there. Maybe I'm underrating him, and his trade value, but maybe not.
The thing is, how useful is the 2014 ATL pick? Omer Asik is better than anyone we'll get in the 22-30 range, which is surely where Atlanta will be picking - they look like the #3 team in the East barring injuries. You hope a 22-30 pick turns into a good role player, and Asik is already a very high end one.