Pablo Sandoval DFA

[trekfan55]

I think contracts have to be evaluated at least at two points:

• When they are signed
• When we can see the results.

From the article linked above:

On Nov. 25, 2014, the Red Sox signed a 27-year-old third baseman to a five-year contract. That player was a career .294/.346/.465 hitter, which is a pretty big deal for someone who spent half of his time at AT&T Park. He was a (deserved!) Gold Glove finalist and a switch hitter, and his swing was absolutely built for Fenway Park, like few hitters before him.

The article goes in length to explain how out of nowhere Sandoval's collapse came from. I mean today this contract is probably the worst in history in terms of dollars vs performance but no one could have seen this then.

One more quote:

Paying baseball players to get older is always a bad idea. Time will come for them all, even Mike Trout, and yet teams have to pay them as if that’s not true because it’s just about the only way to build a competitive team.

And that is the bottom line. In baseball players work for 6 years under team control, and 3 of them with absolutely no say in their salaries (3 further under arbitration). After 6 years they get paid, and many miss their marks. Again, we may never see a player miss the mark as horribly as Sandoval did.

 

[mauidano]

I think contracts have to be evaluated at least at two points:

• When they are signed
• When we can see the results.

Again, we may never see a player miss the mark as horribly as Sandoval did.

Josh Hamilton's contract comes to mind.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Dombrowski is talking about the Pablo DFA. Being surprisingly candid.

• Dombrowski (cont): 'Pablo just wasn't playing as well as we had hoped. We weren't a better club if he was on our club at the major lg level'
• Sox offered Sandoval regular playing time in Triple A. He declined, resulting in DFA decision.
• So felt they were better with Marrero/Lin at 3B. Going forward, Dombrowski says team comfortable w/those 2+Holt, but 'open minded' to trades
• Dombrowski spoke highly of Devers but said team isn't counting on him to help in big leagues at this point. Will see how he performs in AAA

 

[chrisfont9]

Yes. I alluded to it at the bottom of my post, but neglected to mention it at the top.

Lackey had a really good year his second to last year in Boston, but prior to that he was a garbage fire. And Foulke was nails in 2004, but by 2005 he wasn't nearly the same pitcher (to be fair, he practically blew out his arm getting Boston a Championship). He wasn't nearly as effective for the rest of his tenure in Boston and wasn't even the closer his last year here.

I do mean every year, when talking about paying off. Though I guess it determines your definition of paying off. Does a championship season define a contract paying off? How about an ALCS appearance? Playoffs? Over .500? Best player on a bad team? You could probably make a really good argument for any of these categories.

My thinking is that you pay a free agent x amount for a level of performance. Yes, there will be slippage in that performance to be expected, but I think that in order for a player to "pay off", his performance shouldn't completely fall of a cliff.

I will agree that Damon was a value pretty much the entirety of his time here.

Yeah, I mean the examples speak for themselves; there's not much to argue over how people see Lackey or Manny. I do think you might sometimes accept the fall off the cliff if the extra year is the cost of acquisition, and your more reasonable expectations were met in the first [n-1] years of the deal. Drew is maybe an example of that; I don't recall if they needed to go to a fifth year to sign him but maybe? Anyway, he definitely had four good years left, and it's hard to complain too much about the last one as a result.

 

[nvalvo]

Reading Speier's tweets, it looks like Dombrowski is handling this close to perfectly.

I was terrified he'd rush out and trade too much for Frazier, whom I wouldn't expect to be much better going forward than the in-house options.

 

[trekfan55]

With reference to recent contracts that paid/did not pay off:

Foulke was a brilliant closer in 2004. He then played his ass off in the 2004 playoffs. He's one player that you remove from that team and the Sox simply do not win. He arrived injured in 2005 and sort of refused to accept that fact that he was injured. Was booed (again, one player who should be immune to that should be him) and his career was basically over. The fact that he got injured, and got injured delivering a champinoship should not count against him.

Manny was worth it, but he tried to shoot his way out of town several times (remember the Manny is back and he's back big game?) and his interview afterwards? He finally got his wish in the middle of the 2008 season.

Drew was worth it. He got injured, his last year, but as was said above, did they really have to sign him for 5? Maybe they did but at the end of the day there are too many contracts that have one bad year at the end.

Lowell injured his hip and was never the same again, could barely walk.

Lackey had a bad 2010, one of the worst possible seasons in 2011 (and it was later revealed that he was pithcing thrugh injuries and need TJ) sat 2012 off after TJS and had a very good 2013 where he was instrumental in the WS victory. I remember telling my daughter to watch as Lackey would refuse to be taken out in Game 6, and it happened. But then again, he also shot his way out of town in 2014 after he said he wouldn't play under the minimum salary for the Sox, which was part of his contract.

Damon was as worth it as it can get.

Lugo was garbage. But at least he had a good 2007 post season (including turning the inning ending DP in the ALCS where Lofton was mysteriously stopped at 3rd).

Renteria simply could not play in Boston, Not that he was that good elsewhere after that, but he was a lousy signing.

I will not even start with Crawford.

I might be missing a few big names. Schilling maybe? He was really a trade+sign and it did work out in 2004.

That brings us to Panda. He was a miss from Day one. Even Crawford had his share of good days in a row, to the point where we thought we had something. It turned out to be a mirage but Panda did not even give us that. So in terms of Sox contracts, none will be worse than Panda's in terns of results. Maybe all of MLB if not the worse, it is top 3 worst contract for sure.

One final thought about the fans and free agents: Fans don't really pay their salaries, the owner does. And if fans do not like the product on the field they can simply not go or don't tune in. I don't understand the fact that a player is resented for what a billionaire decided to pay him.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

Panda's signing had LL's fingerprints all over it, I have a hard time believe Cherington felt good about handing over that kind of money and years, it made no sense, even at the time.

Cherington got steamrolled by LL on the Valentine hire, the same thing happened here.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

One final thought about the fans and free agents: Fans don't really pay their salaries, the owner does. And if fans do not like the product on the field they can simply not go or don't tune in. I don't understand the fact that a player is resented for what a billionaire decided to pay him.

Probably opportunity cost. We realize that no team, including the Boston Red Sox, have an unlimited payroll budget. Right now, for instance, there's a desire to retain all of Betts, Bradley, Bogaerts, Sale, etc going forward. That's probably not realistic as they hit free agency. If we lose Betts to free agency while a declining David Price is stinking up the joint for $31M/yr, that's not going to do Price many favors in the eyes of the fans.

It may not be the most rationale line of thinking, but it is reasonable for fans to expect some sort of positive return on their team's investment.

 

[brandonchristensen]

Premium ballplayer.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Probably opportunity cost. We realize that no team, including the Boston Red Sox, have an unlimited payroll budget. Right now, for instance, there's a desire to retain all of Betts, Bradley, Bogaerts, Sale, etc going forward. That's probably not realistic as they hit free agency. If we lose Betts to free agency while a declining David Price is stinking up the joint for $31M/yr, that's not going to do Price many favors in the eyes of the fans.

It may not be the most rationale line of thinking, but it is reasonable for fans to expect some sort of positive return on their team's investment.

Yes, but this doesn't answer what trekfan55 said at all. The question isn't, why are fans pissed off about this epically bad deal? The question is, why are they pissed off at Sandoval and not at John Henry and Ben Cherington? All Sandoval did was say "hey, I'll play for whoever pays me the most." It was Cherington who said "we should pay him almost $100 million," and Henry who said, "OK, let's." Nobody held a gun to either of their heads.

 

[TheoShmeo]

The most annoying part of this is they could have signed Adrian Beltre and the 3B problem would have been solved for a long time.

The Beltre lament is understandable. And I also wish they had signed him. At the same time, that the Sox won a WS after Beltre left makes me less inclined to criticize that decision. I get that my point is not exactly linear. But I also think that the Beltre and VMart decisions need to be viewed partially in that light.

And I'm giddy that Panda is gone. Say what you will about the Sox ownership, but the willingness to recognize a sunk cost and not insist that they try to squeeze out some value out of a lost cause indefinitely is hugely positive in my view.

Whether it's Lin/Marrero or Devers or even another addition, we're all a lot better off than we would be if Mr. Sandoval was installed at third yet again.

 

[trekfan55]

The Beltre lament is understandable. And I also wish they had signed him. At the same time, that the Sox won a WS after Beltre left makes me less inclined to criticize that decision. I get that my point is not exactly linear. But I also think that the Beltre and VMart decisions need to be viewed partially in that light.

And I'm giddy that Panda is gone. Say what you will about the Sox ownership, but the willingness to recognize a sunk cost and not insist that they try to squeeze out some value out of a lost cause indefinitely is hugely positive in my view.

Whether it's Lin/Marrero or Devers or even another addition, we're all a lot better off than we would be if Mr. Sandoval was installed at third yet again.

Totally unrelated decisions, IMO.

Beltre was a solid 3rd baseman and not signing him had a chain of consequences to this day. Youks wore down, Rizzo was part of the Agon trade, the Sox are yet to find the the answer at 3rd base and now have a question mark at 1st. Signing Beltre would have helped both and they still have Devers in AAA (maybe?).

VMart was no longer a viable catcher, Detroit signed him to be a DH. Maybe the Sox sign him to play 1st and still move Youks to 3rd? Not sure, but there was some guy holding the DH position at that time.

 

[chrisfont9]

With reference to recent contracts that paid/did not pay off:

...
One final thought about the fans and free agents: Fans don't really pay their salaries, the owner does. And if fans do not like the product on the field they can simply not go or don't tune in. I don't understand the fact that a player is resented for what a billionaire decided to pay him.

The much-beloved 2013 roster remake was largely with FA signings, each of which was basically a home run: Koji, Victorino, Napoli, Gomes and Ross, being the major contributors. Nap and Vic got three years, Gomes and Ross two. The three year deals both fall into the Foulke category of arguably not panning out if you want to get super-technical about it, but nobody cares because of the first year. I know this discussion is mostly concerned with larger deals, so maybe Koji's short money is a different subject, but the two 3x13 contracts to Nap and Victorino were sorta big outlays at the time.

 

[Joe Shlabotnick]

Thank you, Pablo Sandoval

May I ask for what?

 

[Hank Scorpio]

Yes, but this doesn't answer what trekfan55 said at all. The question isn't, why are fans pissed off about this epically bad deal? The question is, why are they pissed off at Sandoval and not at John Henry and Ben Cherington? All Sandoval did was say "hey, I'll play for whoever pays me the most." It was Cherington who said "we should pay him almost $100 million," and Henry who said, "OK, let's." Nobody held a gun to either of their heads.

Ballplayers are easier targets of animosity as their contribution, or lack thereof, is more plainly visible on a day-to-day basis. And you can toss in any dirty laundry they air into the mix as well (Price's media meltdowns, Panda's conditioning issues, Crawford's overall paranoia about Boston). You can, in hindsight, say what a bad decision signing Sandoval was on Cherington and Henry's part, and that's fine, but many others look at it as "the player is the one who carries the expectations, and he's the one who failed to meet them". The most visible and easily targeted embodiment of the failed Sandoval contract is, well, Sandoval himself.

This is somewhat similar to the situation in 2011's September dumpster fire. Was the vilification of Beckett, Lackey and Crawford more about their individual performances, or was it because they were the poster children of a historical collapse, one that ultimately saw Tito and Theo out the door?

 

[chrisfont9]

Josh Hamilton's contract comes to mind.

Mike Hampton could get some love here. Ryan Howard's 5/125 resulted in negative WAR.

 

[chrisfont9]

Also, Sandoval's collapse is more or less unprecedented:

https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/7/14/15972080/pablo-sandoval-red-sox-designated-for-assignment

 

[ookami7m]

Probably even better than Manny, some guy named Ortiz was a free agent signing that worked out.

 

[In my lifetime]

With reference to recent contracts that paid/did not pay off:

Foulke was a brilliant closer in 2004. He then played his ass off in the 2004 playoffs. He's one player that you remove from that team and the Sox simply do not win. He arrived injured in 2005 and sort of refused to accept that fact that he was injured. Was booed (again, one player who should be immune to that should be him) and his career was basically over. The fact that he got injured, and got injured delivering a champinoship should not count against him.

Manny was worth it, but he tried to shoot his way out of town several times (remember the Manny is back and he's back big game?) and his interview afterwards? He finally got his wish in the middle of the 2008 season.

Drew was worth it. He got injured, his last year, but as was said above, did they really have to sign him for 5? Maybe they did but at the end of the day there are too many contracts that have one bad year at the end.

Lowell injured his hip and was never the same again, could barely walk.

Lackey had a bad 2010, one of the worst possible seasons in 2011 (and it was later revealed that he was pithcing thrugh injuries and need TJ) sat 2012 off after TJS and had a very good 2013 where he was instrumental in the WS victory. I remember telling my daughter to watch as Lackey would refuse to be taken out in Game 6, and it happened. But then again, he also shot his way out of town in 2014 after he said he wouldn't play under the minimum salary for the Sox, which was part of his contract.

Damon was as worth it as it can get.

Lugo was garbage. But at least he had a good 2007 post season (including turning the inning ending DP in the ALCS where Lofton was mysteriously stopped at 3rd).

Renteria simply could not play in Boston, Not that he was that good elsewhere after that, but he was a lousy signing.

I will not even start with Crawford.

I might be missing a few big names. Schilling maybe? He was really a trade+sign and it did work out in 2004.

That brings us to Panda. He was a miss from Day one. Even Crawford had his share of good days in a row, to the point where we thought we had something. It turned out to be a mirage but Panda did not even give us that. So in terms of Sox contracts, none will be worse than Panda's in terns of results. Maybe all of MLB if not the worse, it is top 3 worst contract for sure.

One final thought about the fans and free agents: Fans don't really pay their salaries, the owner does. And if fans do not like the product on the field they can simply not go or don't tune in. I don't understand the fact that a player is resented for what a billionaire decided to pay him.

I think this is a very good and accurate summary. However, I disagree with the last sentence. Of course, the salary means something and I think it is not resentment that is driving the fan but a waste of resources. If Panda was paid 500k, his failure is easily fixed by cutting or trading him . His salary made him unmoveable and used up a significant portion of the RS salary budget especially in a year where they seem to be determined to be under the salary cap. If a player is performing very well and has a high salary, the fans in general seem to be satisfied as they should be. If fans were upset in that scenario is would be evidence of your last statement, but in general I don't think that is the case.

 

[GrandSlamPozo]

But he actually paid the Red Sox $47.5 million for each WAR he produced. Steal of the century!

 

[Cesar Crespo]

This coincides with something I read in an article recently. Supposedly, his mechanics were changing from PA to PA and they worked with him to quiet that down. I'm not in any way suggesting that Marrero is an .800 OPS hitter, but there's enough to at least keep an eye on and maybe hope he can be worthy of a bench spot long term.

Seems a lot of farmhands have altered their swings this year to see much different results. Lin, Marrero, Brentz. Curious if Castillo's is different too.

For Lin, there may be no "mean" to which he will regress. He pre-change may have resulted in a new hitter with very different results. I don't think we should simply average the two together and assume that is his future mean. That is, the old Lin may not be useful in foretelling the future Lin.

Not a perfect comp but Lin could be this years Sandy Leon. A guy who plays well above expectation and then falls back to earth but still remains useful.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Seems a lot of farmhands have altered their swings this year to see much different results. Lin, Marrero, Brentz. Curious if Castillo's is different too.



Not a perfect comp but Lin could be this years Sandy Leon. A guy who plays well above expectation and then falls back to earth but still remains useful.

I think you can add Garin Cecchini to the list. Didn't he alter his swing to drive the ball in the air more? He got called up to the Sox, but it didn't last.

 

[quint]

With reference to recent contracts that paid/did not pay off:

Lowell injured his hip and was never the same again, could barely walk.

You're selling Lowell's tenure in Boston short here. I mean he was fairly instrumental during the 2007 Championship team's run, and was pretty damn good until the hip injury.

Also, he didn't arrive as a free agent. He was an afterthought (at the time) of the Beckett trade.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

You're selling Lowell's tenure in Boston short here. I mean he was fairly instrumental during the 2007 Championship team's run, and was pretty damn good until the hip injury.

Also, he didn't arrive as a free agent. He was an afterthought (at the time) of the Beckett trade.

Yep. He had a 128 wRC+ with 21 home runs that year and won the World Series MVP. Then he followed that up with two years at a bit above league average before the torn labrum in his hip ended his career.

 

[Bellhorn]

You're selling Lowell's tenure in Boston short here. I mean he was fairly instrumental during the 2007 Championship team's run, and was pretty damn good until the hip injury.

Also, he didn't arrive as a free agent. He was an afterthought (at the time) of the Beckett trade.

Before the '06 season started, a bunch of posters here were recommending that Lowell be immediately DFA'd (sunk cost!!) so that Hee-Seop Choi could get playing time.

 

[Zedia]

Trekfan is talking about the deal Lowell signed AFTER 2007.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Before the '06 season started, a bunch of posters here were recommending that Lowell be immediately DFA'd (sunk cost!!) so that Hee-Seop Choi could get playing time.

Wow. That brings me back. I might have been one of those posters, actually. I was a big Choi fan during his brief tenure with the Sox.

 

[quint]

Trekfan is talking about the deal Lowell signed AFTER 2007.

I understand that. But in the spirit of this discussion I don't believe that Lowell's acquisition and subsequent re-signing is akin to free agent signings that have flopped or succeeded for the Red Sox.

In either category.

 

[Sox Puppet]

I don't normally engage in this kind of apples-to-oranges comparison, but I think what's most galling about Panda is that (if the math in Adam Kaufman's tweet is correct) he was paid $699K per hit as a Sox, or about 7+ years of my annual salary, and didn't seem to show any real gratitude or effort commensurate with his vastly overpaid contract. His belt bursting open on that fateful swing in Toronto was emblematic of what I'm talking about.

I get that he may have been a well-intended, hard-working player who simply "lost it" through no fault of his own ... and yes, if someone offered me $95M I would take it too ... but I'd like to think that if I were Sandoval, I'd be hiring every personal chef, trainer, and accountability buddy in the 617 area code to help me get my s*** together.

 

[CanvasAlley]

I love redemption stories, and I was hoping the resurgence of Kung Fu Panda would be part of the lore of our 2017 World Series victory. I was impressed with the work he performed to return to playing shape this year, but it was to no avail. For all his well-documented faults, I believe Pablo is a competitor, and I feel badly he could not turn things around.

That said, this is absolutely the right move by the Front Office.

 

[saintnick912]

Trekfan is talking about the deal Lowell signed AFTER 2007.

JWH was on the field in Colorado following the win in Game 4 and a "re sign Lowell" chant broke out. He turned towards the crowd and looked visibly surprised. I don't think that contract was the plan. (I think the A Rod opt out contract may have been, dodged that one).

 

[Average Reds]

I do not believe - no way, no how - that a chant in Colorado after game 4 of the 2007 World Series had anything to do with the decision to re-sign Mike Lowell. Nor do I believe that John Henry was visibly surprised at hearing that chant, considering how Lowell played in the World Series that had just completed ended.

I think that Lowell's play in 2007 and his willingness to take what the Sox offered (fewer years and less money than the Phillies offered) were the factors.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I get that he may have been a well-intended, hard-working player who simply "lost it" through no fault of his own ... and yes, if someone offered me $95M I would take it too ... but I'd like to think that if I were Sandoval, I'd be hiring every personal chef, trainer, and accountability buddy in the 617 area code to help me get my s*** together.

I know that Sandoval gets a lot of crap for his weight problems, but all signs and reports from the time he had the shoulder surgery last year through spring training this year was that he did "get his s*** together" by training, eating properly, shedding weight, etc. Ultimately, he lost his job with the Red Sox not because he was irredeemably fat or lazy, but because his skills diminished beyond the point of no return. He didn't eat his way out of town and I don't think it's fair to him to suggest he did.

 

[joe dokes]

I know that Sandoval gets a lot of crap for his weight problems, but all signs and reports from the time he had the shoulder surgery last year through spring training this year was that he did "get his s*** together" by training, eating properly, shedding weight, etc. Ultimately, he lost his job with the Red Sox not because he was irredeemably fat or lazy, but because his skills diminished beyond the point of no return. He didn't eat his way out of town and I don't think it's fair to him to suggest he did.

Of course this is true, but it never has and never will be that athletic success or failure is just that (to a plurality of fans anyway.) Instead both success and failure are deemed to be the result of traits pulled from Horatio Alger or Chip Hilton.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Of course this is true, but it never has and never will be that athletic success or failure is just that (to a plurality of fans anyway.) Instead both success and failure are deemed to be the result of traits pulled from Horatio Alger or Chip Hilton.

And that narrative is buoyed by the fact that there may often be a grain of truth in it, at least when it comes to free agents. People differ in their motivations, but it's certainly one common component of human nature to ease off the throttle, in terms of effort, when less is at stake. So when a person has just won a guarantee that will make them rich for life whether they try hard or not, expecting them to try just as hard as they did when that guarantee was still in the balance, and their effort could help realize it, is....well, it's expecting a lot. It's asking for a degree of self-motivation and professional pride that is pretty unusual, I think. A guy who can't manage it is not necessarily a bad or lazy person, just an ordinary one.

This is never the whole story when FAs underperform, of course; aging usually has something to do with it as well. But I see no reason to doubt that it's a factor in many cases, and it fuels the "Horatio Alger" side of the fan response.

 

[joe dokes]

And that narrative is buoyed by the fact that there may often be a grain of truth in it, at least when it comes to free agents. People differ in their motivations, but it's certainly one common component of human nature to ease off the throttle, in terms of effort, when less is at stake. So when a person has just won a guarantee that will make them rich for life whether they try hard or not, expecting them to try just as hard as they did when that guarantee was still in the balance, and their effort could help realize it, is....well, it's expecting a lot. It's asking for a degree of self-motivation and professional pride that is pretty unusual, I think. A guy who can't manage it is not necessarily a bad or lazy person, just an ordinary one.

This is never the whole story when FAs underperform, of course; aging usually has something to do with it as well. But I see no reason to doubt that it's a factor in many cases, and it fuels the "Horatio Alger" side of the fan response.

Good points. I think the common thread of all of this is that we know about 1/1000th of what's "really going on." Which is generally why my default is not to pile on a guy who just simply sucks. I assume it sucks for him, too.

David Cone was just old and out of bullets, but the book about his last season was good.

 

[Sox Puppet]

I know that Sandoval gets a lot of crap for his weight problems, but all signs and reports from the time he had the shoulder surgery last year through spring training this year was that he did "get his s*** together" by training, eating properly, shedding weight, etc. Ultimately, he lost his job with the Red Sox not because he was irredeemably fat or lazy, but because his skills diminished beyond the point of no return. He didn't eat his way out of town and I don't think it's fair to him to suggest he did.

Good points. I think the common thread of all of this is that we know about 1/1000th of what's "really going on." Which is generally why my default is not to pile on a guy who just simply sucks. I assume it sucks for him, too.

David Cone was just old and out of bullets, but the book about his last season was good.

I admire you both for taking the high road, I really do. But David Cone was 38 in his Sox season; Panda was 28 when he signed his contract with us, an age when most players are just hitting their prime. If his skills really have already diminished beyond the point of no return at such a young age, it's hard to believe some of that isn't his own fault with regard to conditioning. I will grant that I really don't know 1/1000th of what's going on with him, and shouldn't judge ... it's just frustrating that a situation like this seems virtually unprecedented as far as I can tell.

But anyway, I will stop being resentful and welcome the Todd Frazier era as soon as it begins!

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Just throwing out a theory on how one's skills can diminish despite any and all efforts by the player...loss of eyesight. Sandoval has always been a free swinger who made an extraordinary amount of contact on bad pitches. Something that requires good hand-eye coordination. If his eyesight diminishes, then so too does the hand-eye coordination.

It doesn't even have to be significant eyesight loss. It could be a matter of going from 20/15 vision to 20/20. Doesn't affect day-to-day life in the least, but might be all the difference in making a split second decision whether to swing and where to swing at a 95 mph pitch. Same kind of split second decision making that slows one's first step/reaction defensively at 3B too.

I've never known any kind of conditioning that can prevent deterioration of one's eyesight.

 

[Sox Puppet]

Just throwing out a theory on how one's skills can diminish despite any and all efforts by the player...loss of eyesight. Sandoval has always been a free swinger who made an extraordinary amount of contact on bad pitches. Something that requires good hand-eye coordination. If his eyesight diminishes, then so too does the hand-eye coordination.

It doesn't even have to be significant eyesight loss. It could be a matter of going from 20/15 vision to 20/20. Doesn't affect day-to-day life in the least, but might be all the difference in making a split second decision whether to swing and where to swing at a 95 mph pitch. Same kind of split second decision making that slows one's first step/reaction defensively at 3B too.

I've never known any kind of conditioning that can prevent deterioration of one's eyesight.

That is actually a very plausible theory with regard to Panda as a bad-ball hitter. As for training that can help eyesight, I remember years ago hearing of an unusual regimen Carlos Beltran followed while with the Mets. He would have tennis balls fired at him at 155 mph from a machine and have to recognize a number written on the ball, plus the spin of the ball, as it sailed by. Supposedly it made recognition of "regular" 90 mph fastballs much easier:

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/beltran-device-big-hit-article-1.649696

Here's another great article from the same year about different methods players have used to keep their eyesight sharp:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-06-02-hitting-vision_x.htm

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

That is actually a very plausible theory with regard to Panda as a bad-ball hitter. As for training that can help eyesight, I remember years ago hearing of an unusual regimen Carlos Beltran followed while with the Mets. He would have tennis balls fired at him at 155 mph from a machine and have to recognize a number written on the ball, plus the spin of the ball, as it sailed by. Supposedly it made recognition of "regular" 90 mph fastballs much easier:

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/beltran-device-big-hit-article-1.649696

Here's another great article from the same year about different methods players have used to keep their eyesight sharp:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-06-02-hitting-vision_x.htm

Edgar Martinez used the same drill as an old man with the M's.

 

[YTF]

What, no thank you Pablo Sandoval thread yet?

 

[TheYaz67]

This thread will have to suffice I think.....

 

[reggiecleveland]

It is also plausible a shoulder injury messed up his swing. As mentioned his success was unconventional. A loss of batspeed, that others may have been able to adjust to, could have derailed him.

 

[jtn46]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sandoval gets his swing back with regular AB's given the shoulder injury and his spring, but he has no position right now so it's hard to see who is going to give him those AB's. Sure the Giants could bring back a fan favorite and play him at third and if he loses them games, they are out of it anyways, but if he plays third for them like he played it for us, I imagine Bumgarner, Samardzija, Moore, etc... are going to be very unhappy when routine grounders to third turn into baserunners.

 

[genoasalami]

Some players step up their conditioning and game preparation to justify their mega contract...other players spend considerable time hitting refresh on their brokerage accounts...

 

[reggiecleveland]

Rinse. Repeat.

Let's not rehash the entire saga. To be fair he was in shape this year.

 

[drbretto]

May I ask for what?

It was sarcastic.

 

[TheoShmeo]

What's more amazing, that Panda's skills deteriorated to the extent that they did or that Allan Craig's skills deteriorated to the extent that they did?

Craig arguably fell further.

I am going to go with Craig's skills inasmuch as Panda being in such bad shape portended a drop off. Many here and elsewhere predicted disaster with Panda and I think most people thought Craig would be somewhat useful. And that his lis franc injury was something he could bounce back from.

As an related point, the Panda contract is being touted as one of the worst ever.

I maintain that Rusney Castillo's is even worse. At least Panda had some track record at the major league level and was a key contributor to two Giants post seasons. Castillo had not enjoyed a strong season in the Cuban league -- the minors, essentially -- for two years before Cherington signed him. So not only was Rusney totally untested in the US (and of course the same is true with every DMat, Tanaka, Contreras, etc.), but he had not tasted success in his own league since 2011 when he was signed in the off season before the 2014 season.

Make no mistake, both contracts suck but the thought process behind Castillo was even worse in my book given his relatively ineffective and injured 2012 and 2013 Cuban campaigns and the amount of money they gave a total hope certificate.

 

[joe dokes]

What's more amazing, that Panda's skills deteriorated to the extent that they did or that Allan Craig's skills deteriorated to the extent that they did?

Craig arguably fell further.

I am going to go with Craig's skills inasmuch as Panda being in such bad shape portended a drop off. Many here and elsewhere predicted disaster with Panda and I think most people thought Craig would be somewhat useful. And that his lis franc injury was something he could bounce back from.

Sandoval had a considerably longer stretch of major league success -- 6+ seasons, than did Craig -- 2+. So in that sense, I think Sandoval's collapse at 29 was both a longer fall and more surprising than Craig's at roughly the same age.

 

[Al Zarilla]

What's more amazing, that Panda's skills deteriorated to the extent that they did or that Allan Craig's skills deteriorated to the extent that they did?

Craig arguably fell further.

I am going to go with Craig's skills inasmuch as Panda being in such bad shape portended a drop off. Many here and elsewhere predicted disaster with Panda and I think most people thought Craig would be somewhat useful. And that his lis franc injury was something he could bounce back from.

As an related point, the Panda contract is being touted as one of the worst ever.

I maintain that Rusney Castillo's is even worse. At least Panda had some track record at the major league level and was a key contributor to two Giants post seasons. Castillo had not enjoyed a strong season in the Cuban league -- the minors, essentially -- for two years before Cherington signed him. So not only was Rusney totally untested in the US (and of course the same is true with every DMat, Tanaka, Contreras, etc.), but he had not tasted success in his own league since 2011 when he was signed in the off season before the 2014 season.

Make no mistake, both contracts suck but the thought process behind Castillo was even worse in my book given his relatively ineffective and injured 2012 and 2013 Cuban campaigns and the amount of money they gave a total hope certificate.

Thank you for saying Sandoval was a key contributor to two Giants post seasons. Many people here say three, but he was benched for, you guessed it, obesity, for the postseason of 2010. That should have been a red, or at least a yellow light for Cherington, etc., that his problem was there early, middle and late in his career.