Palefaces: Redskins' Name OK

Status
Not open for further replies.

Marbleheader

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2004
11,726
A member of the Washington D.C. Council said he plans to submit a resolution calling on the Washington Redskins to change their nickname because it is "racist and derogatory" and "it's time to make a change."
 
David Grosso suggested the team change its name to "Redtails" in honor of the Tuskegee Airmen, a pioneering group of African-American pilots who served the United States in World War II.
 
 
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9230556/dc-pol-suggests-redtails-name-change-washington-redskins
 

SoxFanInPdx

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
3,246
Portland, OR
The Redtails? That's laughable. Will George Lucas trademark the name first though? In all seriousness, let Native Americans vote if they want the name gone.
 

PBDWake

Member
SoSH Member
May 1, 2008
3,686
Peabody, MA
It's past time for that name, and iconography like Chief Wahoo, to be gone. Not sure Redtails is the answer, but "Redskins" need to go.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,032
Oregon
SoxFanInPdx said:
The Redtails? That's laughable. Will George Lucas trademark the name first though? In all seriousness, let Native Americans vote if they want the name gone.
 
You don't have to be a Native American to know that Redskins is racist. It has nothing to do with American Indian culture.
 

PBDWake

Member
SoSH Member
May 1, 2008
3,686
Peabody, MA
SoxFanInPdx said:
The Redtails? That's laughable. Will George Lucas trademark the name first though? In all seriousness, let Native Americans vote if they want the name gone.
Native American tribes across the country have been asking for a name change for years and years. Snyder, and other team owners and reps, have ignored it, used the "tradition" excuse, and found individual Native Americans who will basically say "meh" to hold up as a reason it's fine.
 

jose melendez

Earl of Acie
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2003
30,976
Geneva, Switzerland
I kind a liked Redtails... But whatever, just not Redskins.  For pete's sake they changed the Bullets for stupider reasons.
 
And as best as Redskins is, Chief Wahoo is fucking horrendous.  There is literally no argument that that's not incredibly racist.
 

DreamShake

Banned
Mar 27, 2013
109
If certain colleges are forced to change their names because they are simply the names of tribes, then the Redskins, which is a racial slur, should be gone too. I don't buy into that traditional BS, is Snyder going to sell less tickets if they change the name? If anything they will sell more merchandise because everyone's current merch will be out of date.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,851
It's kinda amazing that the NFL is making sure everyone knows how tolerant they will be (and rightly so obviously) when someone comes out as gay, but that they still let this name persist...
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
20,404
They ought to change their name to the "Pigskins", keep the same color scheme and swap the Indian headrest on the mascot for a football helmet. Just about everyone refers to them as "the 'Skins" anyway.
 

MarcSullivaFan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,412
Hoo-hoo-hoo hoosier land.
There may be some room to debate the propriety of various Indian-related team names, but not redskins. It's a racial slur. I think about it this way: If you used the term in any public context other than a discussion of the football team, you could reasonably expect to be fired, flamed on Twitter, expelled from school, etc. It's insane that there is still a team with this shitty racist name.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,032
Oregon
DrewDawg said:
It's kinda amazing that the NFL is making sure everyone knows how tolerant they will be (and rightly so obviously) when someone comes out as gay, but that they still let this name persist...
 
Great point. I suspect it's tied to projected loss in merchandizing revenue
 

someoneanywhere

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
SoxFanInPdx said:
The Redtails? That's laughable. Will George Lucas trademark the name first though? In all seriousness, let Native Americans vote if they want the name gone.
Because, as we know, when tribes want something that matters -- say, for instance, a 40-acre site upon which 300 men, women, and children were massacred by the 7th U.S. cavalry in 1890, and worth $14,000 according to appraisals but being "offered" to them, under threat of a purchase deadline (of today, as a matter of fact) for closer to $5 million -- well, when tribes ask for something you know they usually get it.
 

dbn

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 10, 2007
7,785
La Mancha.
This post probably belongs in V&N, not here, and I know I'm arguing against no one, but whatever.
 
I saw this story this morning and it got me thinking about how it is possible that people (myself included) aren't outraged about the name all the time.  I mean, I've long been against it, but 99.9% of the time I'm watching football I don't even think about the racism implicit in using "Redskins" as the team name.  In contrast, imagine if there was a San Francisco Yellowskins team, with a picture of an asian on the helmet, or the Cleveland Brownskins with a picture of a black person on the helmet.  No one would stand for it.  So, why do we put up with the Washington Redskins with a picture of a American Indian on the helmet?  
 
Then it occurred to me.  Asian American and African Americans (as well as Asians and black people in general) are integrated into our culture, are our peers, people who we interact with everyday -- or to put in another way, are part of the "we".  That wasn't always the case - there was certainly a time that few people would have been outraged at my hypothetical mascots/helmets - but it is now.  If there were team names that were racist against those groups, we'd have constant reminders of that racism in our everyday life and our consciences would not let us stand for it.  The native Americans, on the other hand, were herded onto reservations and forgotten about.  I bet I'd think about the racism implicit in the "Redskins" name a lot more that 0.1% of the time if I got together with a bunch of native American buddies every Sunday to watch football.  This saddens me about myself and our culture.  
 
Anyhow, sorry for the rambling, depressing rant.  You can go back to enjoying the NFL now.
 
 
 
Also, raise your If you think the name wouldn't have been changed long ago if ~13% of the NFL's market was native American.
 

Rough Carrigan

reasons within Reason
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Why don't they just change the name to whatever the most famous indian tribe was in the Maryland/DC/VA area?  Nobody complains about Chicago's hockey team being called the Blackhawks.
 
Okay, Shawnees, Powhatans and Tutelos.  There were actually Cherokee indians in southwest Virginia.  Just pick one of those names.
 

dbn

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 10, 2007
7,785
La Mancha.
PBDWake said:
Native American tribes across the country have been asking for a name change for years and years. Snyder, and other team owners and reps, have ignored it, used the "tradition" excuse, and found individual Native Americans who will basically say "meh" to hold up as a reason it's fine.
 
In Snyder's defense, they do have eighty years of "tradition."  When it comes to tradition, native Americans can't compete with that.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
dbn said:
This post probably belongs in V&N, not here, and I know I'm arguing against no one, but whatever.
 
I saw this story this morning and it got me thinking about how it is possible that people (myself included) aren't outraged about the name all the time.  I mean, I've long been against it, but 99.9% of the time I'm watching football I don't even think about the racism implicit in using "Redskins" as the team name.  In contrast, imagine if there was a San Francisco Yellowskins team, with a picture of an asian on the helmet, or the Cleveland Brownskins with a picture of a black person on the helmet.  No one would stand for it.  So, why do we put up with the Washington Redskins with a picture of a American Indian on the helmet?  
 
Or if some team had a drunken Irishman as a mascot.... wait .... what?
 
I think they should change Redskins for all the reasons previously stated, and probably any still using "Indians" should also be changed, but I don't have any problem with "Braves," "Warriors," or "Chiefs" (outside of derogatory mascots) because those are like having a team called the "Cowboys" or "Patriots"
 
I saw the perfect name for them to change it to on the PowerLine comment section, the "Washington Red Ink."
 

dbn

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 10, 2007
7,785
La Mancha.
Plympton91 said:
Or if some team had a drunken Irishman as a mascot.... wait .... what?
 
I think they should change Redskins for all the reasons previously stated, and probably any still using "Indians" should also be changed, but I don't have any problem with "Braves," "Warriors," or "Chiefs" (outside of derogatory mascots) because those are like having a team called the "Cowboys" or "Patriots"
 
I saw the perfect name for them to change it to on the PowerLine comment section, the "Washington Red Ink."
 
I don't know why you think he's necessarily drunk, but I do wonder what is in that pipe...
 
The Washington "Red tape"?
 

Tony C

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Apr 13, 2000
13,695
Ferm Sheller said:
They ought to change their name to the "Pigskins", keep the same color scheme and swap the Indian headrest on the mascot for a football helmet. Just about everyone refers to them as "the 'Skins" anyway.
 
I like that one! and the bbq sales would be out the roof...sell some chicharones, too. 
 
But, yeah, even if the word police thing is lame in general 'Redskins' is still well beyond the pale (heh heh). I actually like Redtails, too, I think that'd be a cool nickname with a cool history. Doesn't beat Pigskins, though. But, one way or the other get rid of Redskins.
 
The worst thing about the Bullets was that changed to the Wizards. And, on name changes in general, I get that Pelicans has some connection to New Orleans, but the New Orleans Brass would have been much better.
 
edit: and the New Orleans Krewe would have been cool, too.
 

SoxFanInPdx

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
3,246
Portland, OR
PBDWake said:
Native American tribes across the country have been asking for a name change for years and years. Snyder, and other team owners and reps, have ignored it, used the "tradition" excuse, and found individual Native Americans who will basically say "meh" to hold up as a reason it's fine.
Ok, well I had no idea about Snyder's lack of action, not surprising though. A new name would be good for sure and it is long overdue. 
 

DanoooME

above replacement level
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2008
19,831
Henderson, NV
Those of you making the argument that they would lose merchandising revenue, I vehemently disagree.  If they change the name, they might as well change the uniform design and every Washington fan is going to have to run out and buy all new merchandise to support the team.
 
I've called them the Deadskins for a while now because the owner is brain dead, so they can change to black and white and put a zombie on the helmet.
 

Awesome Fossum

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,899
Austin, TX
Snyder isn't going to change the name, so this exercise is just academic. But for fun -- is all American Indian imagery off the table? Is a change to "Washington Warriors" good enough, or are we going to go through another round of this in 20 years, along with the Kansas City Chiefs and Atlanta Braves? Because you absolutely don't want to have to do this twice.
jose melendez said:
For pete's sake they changed the Bullets for stupider reasons.
Yeah, and 15 or whatever years later, D.C. fans are still begging them to change the name back. You don't want something like that hanging over your franchise. It's not like in college, where you have a new students coming in every year who don't care what the name used to be.

That's why when the time finally comes to change the name -- probably after RGIII blows out both knees, the Redskins string together three 4-12 seasons, and Snyder is beaten to death by an angry mob -- I wouldn't replace "Redskins" with anything, at least at first. Just be Washington Football Club or something along those lines. The fans are going to hate the new name out of principle, even if it is a better effort than Wizards. (My vote is Federals.)
 

singaporesoxfan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2004
11,882
Washington, DC
The Washington City Paper (the local alt-weekly) took to calling the team the Pigskins a while back. I really like the name; keeps the Skins nickname, clearly football related, and on online message boards people would just type HTTP instead of HTTR.

Most importantly, the Pigskins name would make pork rinds the clear favourite to be the official snack food of the Skins, and I love pork rinds.
 

Ferm Sheller

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2007
20,404
They also could call them the "Foreskins" and change the Indian headrest on the logo to a yamaka.
 

Infield Infidel

teaching korea american
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,463
Meeting Place, Canada
One of the few good ideas TMQ has is to keep the Redskins name, but change the logo to something else with red skin, like a red-skinned hog, or potatoes, etc.
 
Really hogs makes a lot of sense given that fans already associate the team with Hogs
 

RingoOSU

okie misanthrope
SoSH Member
Jun 2, 2005
16,168
Jerry Adair's home state
Infield Infidel said:
One of the few good ideas TMQ has is to keep the Redskins name, but change the logo to something else with red skin, like a red-skinned hog, or potatoes, etc.
 
Really hogs makes a lot of sense given that fans already associate the team with Hogs
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
MannysDestination said:
I'd love to see a cogent argument that makes the case "Redskins" is not racist.
 
 
You're still waiting, I see.
 
When not hiding behind the fiction that the name celebrates Tea Party colonists, proponents usually offer something about celebrating laudable characteristics.  Warrior spirit, and so forth.
 
Well fine.  Then rebrand current teams -- Baltimore Negroes, New York Jews, Boston Micks.  And when the outrage breaks out, proponents can argue that there are merely celebrating superb athleticism, heady brand of play, and never-say-die attitude.
 
Somebody made the point upthread.  Native Americans are not generally related to as people.  Which is particularly disturbing because, along with the blight of slavery, the genocide and "settlement" of Native Americans are the indelible stains of our history.  Curiously, the other victimized group, African Americans, don't seem to be any more upset about this than anyone else, a perverse sign perhaps that they have been fully assimilated and granted their place at the national table.
 

steveluck7

Member
SoSH Member
May 10, 2007
3,994
Burrillville, RI
Infield Infidel said:
One of the few good ideas TMQ has is to keep the Redskins name, but change the logo to something else with red skin, like a red-skinned hog, or potatoes, etc.
 
Really hogs makes a lot of sense given that fans already associate the team with Hogs
Or those suffering from Rosacea or maybe just people with really bad sun burns
 

ALiveH

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
1,104
I'll play devil's advocate...
 
Actually, just the other day I was talking with some friends about how most of the words that are now seen as derogatory epithets were originally merely descriptive and then over time they came be seen as derogatory by the PC movement who had to invent a new much longer tongue-twister.  Sometimes this process goes through multiple iterations.
 
From the 16th century through till the early 20th century, "redskins" or "red people" or "red Indians" or "red men" or simply "reds", was not an epithet at all.  It was simply a descriptive word for the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas because of the reddish hue of their skin, and the custom of certain tribes of painting themselves red.  I'm not sure when it started being seen as a pejorative term and by who, but it would be interesting to see the when and how.  Here's a fairly long paper on the etymology of redskins if anyone wants more info on the subject:
http://anthropology.si.edu/goddard/redskin.pdf
 
 
My other question is who feels more uncomfortable by "redskins" native americans or other americans?  This poll for example says that only 9% of native americans find the Washington Redskins to be an inappropriate name.
http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/downloads/political_communication/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf
 
A poll recently in the news shows that about 20% of all Americans finds the name inappropriate.
 

SumnerH

Malt Liquor Picker
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
31,900
Alexandria, VA
Awesome Fossum said:
Snyder isn't going to change the name, so this exercise is just academic. But for fun -- is all American Indian imagery off the table? Is a change to "Washington Warriors" good enough, or are we going to go through another round of this in 20 years, along with the Kansas City Chiefs and Atlanta Braves?
 
Unlike Chiefs or Braves, "Warriors" doesn't have any particular association with Native Americans.
 

moly99

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 28, 2007
939
Seattle
If I were Daniel Snyder I would rename them the "Pinkies." (The baby rats fed to snakes by herpetologists.) The logo would be a bag of freeze dried rodents arranged in the shape of a labia. The mascot would be a pale-skinned redneck with Down's syndrome. It would enrage women, whites, animals rights groups, disability advocates, Redskins fans, etc.
 
A year later you change the name again to whatever the hell you want and no matter what you choose people will just be glad you aren't the Pinkies anymore.
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
6,424
Its awesome to see that lawmakers on Capitol Hill are going after such pressing matters as the Washington Redskins nickname. All of a sudden in the past 25 or so years we've taken it upon ourselves to go on a PC crusade. Change the Bullets to the Wizards because, eek guns shoot bullets, which causes harm. Change the Redskins to the Redtails because of course the Redskin name is racist. By the way, if you are going to change the Redskin name because its offensive to native americans, wouldn't you change it to a name that honors them? Redtails would make zero sense in that regard. What's next? Change the Dolphins nickname because PETA feels that its offensive to Dolphins? Obviously that last example is a stretch, but why the hell do people need to go on these crusades? A recent poll that was done mentioned that 79% of the polled wanted the name to stay. I don't know about you guys, but when your city has one of the highest crime rates in America, you would think that law makers would have better things to do than lobby for professional team name changes. 
 
FYI here is the poll results
 
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/02/poll-shows-high-support-for-redskins-name/
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
14,037
Richmond, VA
Tyrone Biggums said:
Its awesome to see that lawmakers on Capitol Hill are going after such pressing matters as the Washington Redskins nickname. All of a sudden in the past 25 or so years we've taken it upon ourselves to go on a PC crusade. Change the Bullets to the Wizards because, eek guns shoot bullets, which causes harm. Change the Redskins to the Redtails because of course the Redskin name is racist. By the way, if you are going to change the Redskin name because its offensive to native americans, wouldn't you change it to a name that honors them? Redtails would make zero sense in that regard. What's next? Change the Dolphins nickname because PETA feels that its offensive to Dolphins? Obviously that last example is a stretch, but why the hell do people need to go on these crusades? A recent poll that was done mentioned that 79% of the polled wanted the name to stay. I don't know about you guys, but when your city has one of the highest crime rates in America, you would think that law makers would have better things to do than lobby for professional team name changes. 
 
FYI here is the poll results
 
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/02/poll-shows-high-support-for-redskins-name/
'dolphin' isn't racist, because it doesn't describe a race. It's more of a genus.
The team should follow the lead of The Dolphins, and rename the Redskins in a manner honoring all of humanity, by calling the team 'The Homos'....
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
6,424
CaptainLaddie said:
Who gives a shit?  The name is racist, plain and simple.  Tradition means shit here.
But why should it be up to law makers? If the Native American community is fine with it (and there are some that aren't, I get that) why is it a big issue? It's not like they are parading around a mascot that shits all over the Native American heritage. It should be up to the Native Americans, not law makers that have no Native American blood in them.

Similar thing happened in Dakota with the Fighting Sioux where I believed they had to change the name because the tribe wouldn't endorse it. If the majority of the affected people are fine with the nickname then who are we to judge? The name is racist, no question. But, at the same time so aren't the Seminoles and Braves tomahawk chops, the chiefs and any other names associated with Native Americans. I just think that there are more pressing matters than this in DC that should be attended to unless of course the Native American tribes are pushing this.

I would also like to add that the Indians are 3 times more offensive because of that stupid smiling Indian logo that they finally changed.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
14,037
Richmond, VA
Tyrone Biggums said:
But why should it be up to law makers? If the Native American community is fine with it (and there are some that aren't, I get that) why is it a big issue? It's not like they are parading around a mascot that shits all over the Native American heritage. It should be up to the Native Americans, not law makers that have no Native American blood in them.

Similar thing happened in Dakota with the Fighting Sioux where I believed they had to change the name because the tribe wouldn't endorse it. If the majority of the affected people are fine with the nickname then who are we to judge? The name is racist, no question. But, at the same time so aren't the Seminoles and Braves tomahawk chops, the chiefs and any other names associated with Native Americans. I just think that there are more pressing matters than this in DC that should be attended to unless of course the Native American tribes are pushing this.
The Seminoles and the Sioux are both specific tribes.
'braves' is probably roughly equivalent to 'knights'.

'redskins' is more analogous to 'negroes' or something of the sort. There is no specific body to ask.

To me it's as if a German team called themselves 'the Jews'. It's not just that the name is or is not pejorative... It that what WE (whities) did was so terrible that frankly its insulting to ME that we use the reference for something as trivial as a football team. And my opinion doesn't matter.
The collective national shrug we give towards our history with the native Americans is not a good thing. The traditions of the NFL are weak in comparison. It's a name: change it.

Pigskins is awesome, but if anyone is worried about the kosher/halal crowd, 'Sheepskins' might be an alternate.

And then get Trojan and Durex to bid up on the stadium naming rights.

Or get all patriotic: 'The First Responders' is a little ponderous...
 

Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2006
6,424
simplyeric said:
The Seminoles and the Sioux are both specific tribes.
'braves' is probably roughly equivalent to 'knights'.

'redskins' is more analogous to 'negroes' or something of the sort. There is no specific body to ask.

To me it's as if a German team called themselves 'the Jews'. It's not just that the name is or is not pejorative... It that what WE (whities) did was so terrible that frankly its insulting to ME that we use the reference for something as trivial as a football team. And my opinion doesn't matter.
The collective national shrug we give towards our history with the native Americans is not a good thing. The traditions of the NFL are weak in comparison. It's a name: change it.

Pigskins is awesome, but if anyone is worried about the kosher/halal crowd, 'Sheepskins' might be an alternate.

And then get Trojan and Durex to bid up on the stadium naming rights.

Or get all patriotic: 'The First Responders' is a little ponderous...
But who is pushing this? Is it the lawmakers or the tribes? If its the tribes then fine, but my issue is that it seems that the lawmakers are the ones who are bringing this to the forefront. The Indians are in my honest opinion more offensive than any name in sports, yet not much has come out of changing that nickname. Bottom line is that if you change the nickname, you need to give them a nickname that empowers Native Americans. The red tails would be a good name for an expansion team but if you're changing the nickname for one groups benefit then why not change it to something that is defined by Native American culture.

Again I'm aware the popular opinion is to change the nickname period. However, why does it need to change if the people that are supposedly affected do not care? If the tribes come to the forefront and say change the nickname then do it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.