Palefaces: Redskins' Name OK
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So, wait, is racial humor not cool now? If this was a joke told by a stand-up comic would it be ok to laugh? Yes we all recognize those are slurs and we don't use those words like ever, but that's not much worse than something you might see on SNL and tamer than most stand up comics these days. I think there is a pretty large degree of difference between a slur being used in a satirical or humorous article looking to prove a point and an NFL team that has an actual slur for a name.
I don't see much difference between the Onion article and the classic SNL skit with Eddie Murphy as Jessie Jackson singing "Don't Let Me Down, Hymietown" but maybe I have just watched too much TV or something.
I don't see much difference between the Onion article and the classic SNL skit with Eddie Murphy as Jessie Jackson singing "Don't Let Me Down, Hymietown" but maybe I have just watched too much TV or something.
Worth revisiting the Washington City Paper article that Snyder found so offensive:
http://touch.washingtoncitypaper.com/wcp/#!/entry/the-cranky-redskins-fans-guide-to-dan-snyder,51c35127da27f5d9d0e4e216
http://touch.washingtoncitypaper.com/wcp/#!/entry/the-cranky-redskins-fans-guide-to-dan-snyder,51c35127da27f5d9d0e4e216
I'm not sure Snyder's offensive stance is to say "fuck you" as it is a stance to protect as what he sees as his asset and financial interests. But I think he's wrong, but its not my money.
HOWEVER, and this is the point, did the Onion really need to use racial slurs and racial stereotypes to reinforce a point that is beyond obvious, and a point (of view) that is likely shared by the majority of its readers?
Is the Onion's use of racial slurs also not an attempt on its part to profit from racism?
And to be clear, I find the name "Redskin" offensive, Snyder offensive, and the Onion guilty of using very poor judgment. That they did not advocate for maltreatment of Jews is laudable, but irrelevant. I imagine they could have called for cleansing the vermin-infested kike of his beliefs, but that might have been a little to incendiary, ham-handed and not kosher.
This is an interesting question, and it's one that I sometimes struggle with and sometimes get pissed off by. To use a relatively innocuous example, my roommate is overweight, and she often shovels food quickly into her wide-open mouth. I shudder and say something to the effect of, "If you don't want people to think of you as a disgusting fat slob, you need to not act like the stereotype of one." But, of course, that's a sensitive statement; should it be incumbent on people to actively try to not act like the negative stereotypes of their particular group? (Bill Cosby has some strong feelings about this.) Or should we acknowledge that while all groups -- even the ones that aren't stereotyped that way -- have members that do the behavior in question, if the stereotyped group does it it is remarked upon and reinforces a negative idea about the entire group? Generally, I'm sympathetic to the latter idea, but...bankshot1 said:
Well, every now and then someone comes along and acts like the worst caricature of my group and it pisses me off because I'm also held accountable for it. So the wealthy Jew is doing something amoral and trampling over a disadvantaged group to make a little more money? Now, it's clear he's not doing it because[/] he's Jewish; he's doing it in spite of that fact, and because he missed the many important messages about tzedakah (usually translated as charity but it really means justice) and tikkun olam and all that in Hebrew School. And yet, by acting this way, he's lending credence to the old stereotype and keeping it from fading into a quiet obscure death. And that makes me look bad!
So he may not think he's doing it because "fuck you," but by doing it he's actively promoting bigotry against two groups. That's not any better than doing it because "fuck you."
No, it is an attempt to use satire to point out that Snyder is a hypocritical ass worthy of scorn.
They're still called the Redskins? Then yes.
(P.S., Not that this even matters, but I'd be surprised if the Onion article weren't written by (or at least pitched by) a Jewish member of their writing staff. But now you can ding me for saying the stereotype that non-Jews aren't funny!)
Rather than rebut your points, suffice it to say, in my opinion, using racism for profit, a merchant of venom as it were, is odious from either side. If we were to peal the skin of the Onion's motivations, would we all not cry?
Rather than assume that all comedy that uses slurs is odious, and rather than let me clumsily try and explain why it's not, look for any stories or interviews with Dave Chapelle, especially discussing why he stopped doing the Chapelle show. He's much more eloquent about the issue than I am, and it shows the extremely thin line that racial humor has to walk to be both funny and pointed.
If you don't want to go look, I'll summarize. There are 2 big types of racial comedy (Well, 3, but for all intents and purposes, we're gonna ignore full blown racism, both in the shock value kind and the true racist humor kind). There's the old Chris Rock "White People be like... Black People be like..." humor, and there's what Dave Chapelle wanted to do. Chapelle wanted to fully put out the slurs and stereotypes out there, to demonstrate how regressive and stupid they were, It's an extremely thin line to walk. But there's a place for it.
And you were uncomfortable with the slur. Can I ask you a question? You sound pretty queasy reading the slur. Have you ever felt equally queasy reading ESPN's stories about RG3 and co?
If you don't want to go look, I'll summarize. There are 2 big types of racial comedy (Well, 3, but for all intents and purposes, we're gonna ignore full blown racism, both in the shock value kind and the true racist humor kind). There's the old Chris Rock "White People be like... Black People be like..." humor, and there's what Dave Chapelle wanted to do. Chapelle wanted to fully put out the slurs and stereotypes out there, to demonstrate how regressive and stupid they were, It's an extremely thin line to walk. But there's a place for it.
And you were uncomfortable with the slur. Can I ask you a question? You sound pretty queasy reading the slur. Have you ever felt equally queasy reading ESPN's stories about RG3 and co?
The problem with satire is huge chunks of the country are not capable of recognizing it as such. I love this country without reservation, but this area is our blot of shame. I don't like fucking with blacks, native Americans or Jews.
bankshot1 said:
I don't know you but it seems that your repulsion for racism is sincere. I applaud that, so you're okay in my book.
However, I disagree with you on The Onion satire. The "article" clearly is clearly satire - i.e., they aren't saying "jews are bad, mean-spirited people".
In fact, I think the satire in question is a positive thing for combating racist sentiments. In general, people are very conscious and sensitive to anti-Semitism. In contrast, most people (myself included, before having thought through this issue because it's been in the news recently), have been much, much less conscious of native American racism (in the sense that, even though most of us are aware of the terrible history, we still don't think twice when a NFL team named "Redskins" takes the field.) The goal of the satire is clearly to equate racism against native Americans (something of which most are pretty unconscious) to anti-semitism (something of which most are very conscious of.) I think this is a powerful and potentially effective method.
To be fair, I guess one could argue that a person reading The Onion "article" might miss the satire and be introduced to or have strengthened their anti-Semetic sentiments. I would counter, however, that just about anyone who reads The Onion knows enough and/or is intelligent enough to know that it is satire and get the point.
dcmissle said:
Was writing my post when yours appeared.
I agree. That is why such satire (IMO) is inappropriate for, e.g., Jay Leno. Or Fox News. I do believe it has its place, however.
Rather than assume that all comedy that uses slurs is odious, and rather than let me clumsily try and explain why it's not, look for any stories or interviews with Dave Chapelle, especially discussing why he stopped doing the Chapelle show. He's much more eloquent about the issue than I am, and it shows the extremely thin line that racial humor has to walk to be both funny and pointed.
If you don't want to go look, I'll summarize. There are 2 big types of racial comedy (Well, 3, but for all intents and purposes, we're gonna ignore full blown racism, both in the shock value kind and the true racist humor kind). There's the old Chris Rock "White People be like... Black People be like..." humor, and there's what Dave Chapelle wanted to do. Chapelle wanted to fully put out the slurs and stereotypes out there, to demonstrate how regressive and stupid they were, It's an extremely thin line to walk. But there's a place for it.
And you were uncomfortable with the slur. Can I ask you a question? You sound pretty queasy reading the slur. Have you ever felt equally queasy reading ESPN's stories about RG3 and co?
Chris Rock? You think his bit about how he's seen a polar bear riding a tricycle but has never seen 2 Indians chilling at Red Lobster wasn't meant to be a pointed commentary on our racial history?
If you don't want to go look, I'll summarize. There are 2 big types of racial comedy (Well, 3, but for all intents and purposes, we're gonna ignore full blown racism, both in the shock value kind and the true racist humor kind). There's the old Chris Rock "White People be like... Black People be like..." humor, and there's what Dave Chapelle wanted to do. Chapelle wanted to fully put out the slurs and stereotypes out there, to demonstrate how regressive and stupid they were, It's an extremely thin line to walk. But there's a place for it.
And you were uncomfortable with the slur. Can I ask you a question? You sound pretty queasy reading the slur. Have you ever felt equally queasy reading ESPN's stories about RG3 and co?
Chris Rock? You think his bit about how he's seen a polar bear riding a tricycle but has never seen 2 Indians chilling at Red Lobster wasn't meant to be a pointed commentary on our racial history?
Good article on the legal aspects of this controversy.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/10/15/a-look-at-the-legal-fight-to-change-the-washington-redskins-name/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/10/15/a-look-at-the-legal-fight-to-change-the-washington-redskins-name/
Good article on the legal aspects of this controversy.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/10/15/a-look-at-the-legal-fight-to-change-the-washington-redskins-name/
It repeats the claim that the name was in honor of a Native coach. I thought it was well-established that Dietz was a white man who stole a deceased native' s identity in order to qualify for some Federal program.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/10/15/a-look-at-the-legal-fight-to-change-the-washington-redskins-name/
It repeats the claim that the name was in honor of a Native coach. I thought it was well-established that Dietz was a white man who stole a deceased native' s identity in order to qualify for some Federal program.
I was having a little fun with Shakespeare, Shylock and how anti-Semitism was portrayed in an early time.Marciano490 said:
I am less charitable toward your defense than KJ was upthread because, for serious, this quote right here is attempting to defend reprehensibility by substituting for it horseshit cowardice. If he actually, seriously wants to "protect his asset" and that means using a marginally more polite word than "gentleman or lady of African descent"? If that's true? Fuck his asset and fuck him. The price of being a decent human might be a few tenths of a percent of a profit margin. But it wouldn't even get to that; I am certain it'd be a disingenuous defense besides: nobody's gonna not go to a football game because the local team isn't called a racial slur anymore. It's not going to happen.bankshot1 said:
Fuck you, people-we-forcibly-threw-out-and-whose-suffering-we-profit-from-today. We're gonna call a football team of white and black dudes a pejorative name for you. Because fuck you. This is what's going on. And a refusal to act like a baseline-not-shit human being is unworthy of defense.
Blacken said:
I'm not defending the asshole. I think he's wrong. And I said that repeatedly. But he's not a better human being, he is who he is, and he is protecting his financial assets, in this case his football team which according to Forbes is worth about $1.7 billion. Again, I would change the name, but its not my team, nor my option, I'm just saying his position may be financially motivated and not simply spiteful.
bankshot1 said:
The "making money off it" argument works best for someone using an issue as a one-off ploy to attract attention. To me, it doesn't really apply to The Onion which doesn't require more publicity.
dbn said:
I think dbn and KJ are pretty much spot on and have covered just about everything, but I think I might have something to add.
Several have asked if such offensiveness was necessary and justified. I think it is, in large measure because of what it did to me. I don't want to get into biography, but I've read more about racial and social injustice than probably the vast majority of people. That's not a brag, it's just a function of my occupation and an indicator of a perverse predilection of learning about awfulness. The Onion piece hit me on a new level. I've always been pro-name change for that team, but this is the first time I've ever wondered why I've been willing to say their name aloud when I would literally have difficulty saying the K-word, N-word or C-words out loud alone in my own home. I found it humorous and yet I was uncomfortable about it--that discomfort is key.
Some education is best accomplished by the "prank method." It makes us uncomfortable, but it's not the less true for it. This becomes all the more true as our culture increasingly acquires a distaste for the prophets who tell us of our poor ways. It's probably not an accident that the role of the public intellectual and social critic has given way to the cultural critic who covers things like video games and not social practices and the comics like Chapelle, Rock, Louis C.K., Colbert and Stewart; we've left the needs of prophecy to the clowns. The prank method hits us with the disconnection between what we know should be right and the reality of things.
SumnerH said:
I can't even begin to address the notion that people can watch Chris Rock and not see a running dialogue on social justice. It's no accident he took his style from his preacher grandfather.
bankshot1 said:
The NFL team representing Washington, DC might well be one of the securest assets in the world; it requires no protection.
In fact, I think it would be hard to assess the largeness of the value of the free publicity a name change in the name of social justice (no pun intended) would bring them. Do we think the economy who votes their racist dollars is really stronger than the football watching economy?
I'm not sure where the best place to put this but I'm so glad the Pats got rid of the Big Bang Clock:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9893116/brandon-meriweather-washington-redskins-rips-brandon-marshall-vows-target-opposing-players-knees
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9893116/brandon-meriweather-washington-redskins-rips-brandon-marshall-vows-target-opposing-players-knees
Wow. How unintelligent is BW? After putting that on record, the first time he hits someone in the knees and it looks even remotely on purpose, he should receive a lifetime ban.
I'm not crazy about the Onion article, but the point it makes is a clear one: We treat racial slurs against Native Americans differently than slurs against other groups. If the Washington football team had any of the objectionable terms in that article, or say, the N word as their name there would be far more outcry than there is. Certainly you wouldn't have reporters writing about how it is ok because they use it, or 79 percent of people polled say the name is fine and doesn't need to be changed as of April : (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9235381/poll-majority-approve-washington-redskins-name)
Wait Jesse Ventura?
Just yesterday in grantland's brief history of racism in wrestling "If the acts weren't always bald-facedly racist, their matches were often peppered with the patently offensive bad-guy shtick of legendary color commentator Jesse "The Body" Ventura. At various times Ventura reacted to a Junkyard Dog interview by saying JYD had "a mouth full of grits," called his rope-a-dope in-ring routine "a lot of shuckin' and jivin'." He commonly referred to fan favorite Santana as "Chico," dubbed his finishing move the "flying burrito" finisher, and, when Santana was getting pummeled atWrestleMania IV, Ventura said, "I betcha Chico wishes he was back selling tacos in Tijuana right now!" He similarly referred to black wrestler "Birdman" Koko B. Ware as "Buckwheat" until eventually Vince McMahon himself put a stop to it."
Just yesterday in grantland's brief history of racism in wrestling "If the acts weren't always bald-facedly racist, their matches were often peppered with the patently offensive bad-guy shtick of legendary color commentator Jesse "The Body" Ventura. At various times Ventura reacted to a Junkyard Dog interview by saying JYD had "a mouth full of grits," called his rope-a-dope in-ring routine "a lot of shuckin' and jivin'." He commonly referred to fan favorite Santana as "Chico," dubbed his finishing move the "flying burrito" finisher, and, when Santana was getting pummeled atWrestleMania IV, Ventura said, "I betcha Chico wishes he was back selling tacos in Tijuana right now!" He similarly referred to black wrestler "Birdman" Koko B. Ware as "Buckwheat" until eventually Vince McMahon himself put a stop to it."
While Ventura is getting a lot of the press (unfortunately), it's important to remember that he didn't organize the rally, and isn't representing the Indian tribes in attendance.
He's basically just some guy who showed up and got handed a microphone.
He's basically just some guy who showed up and got handed a microphone.
jose melendez said:
On the one hand, yes, that all sounds reprehensible. On the other hand, professional wrestling is fake, and everything including the announcers is an act. So isn't hard to say that it was just him playing the role of bad-guy announcer. As is stated in the article, it's bad-guy shtick, so it's probably not his actual views.
Also, professional wrestling is intentionally stereotyping and offensive. It's kinda part of the point. Not saying that makes everything ok, buts its kinda like comparing 'Crossfire' with 'Te Daily Show', or the Washington Post with The Onion.
Speaking of which: where's those onion article posts go?
Speaking of which: where's those onion article posts go?
"Here we go, Angry Arabs, here we go!"
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/Blog/2013/11/13/Meeting-planned-to-discuss-Coachella-Valley-High-Schools-Angry-Arab-mascot/7601384370826/
Edit to add: how the hell has this taken so long to be denounced?
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/Blog/2013/11/13/Meeting-planned-to-discuss-Coachella-Valley-High-Schools-Angry-Arab-mascot/7601384370826/
Edit to add: how the hell has this taken so long to be denounced?
I'm pretty even keeled, not many things offend or shock me. I generally just don't care but I don't begrudge others who have strong reactions to stuff that I just kind of gloss over. But this is shocking, even to me. It's just kind of stunning. I don't want to laugh, but I find myself chuckling at the sheer absurdity of that mascot.
Near where I currently live, the school nickname for a local high school is the Arabians. (It's actually Brock Huntzinger's high school.) Named after the breed of horse. Seems like a potentially easy fix, eh?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/who-made-that-redskins-logo.html?ref=football
A NY Times article on the history of the use of Native American imagery in sport branding.
A NY Times article on the history of the use of Native American imagery in sport branding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR-tbOxlhvE
ICTMN Exclusive: NCAI Releases R-word Video Ahead of Super Bowl
ICTMN Exclusive: NCAI Releases R-word Video Ahead of Super Bowl
Looks like Congress wants to distract us from seeing they aren't doing any real work.
Senator threatens NFL tax-exempt status:
Snyder should just give in and accept his fate. He's going to make millions from changing the name because everyone is going to have to get new gear.
Senator threatens NFL tax-exempt status:
Snyder should just give in and accept his fate. He's going to make millions from changing the name because everyone is going to have to get new gear.
It appears that the Washington Area Football Team's only defense for their name now is: "oh, lawmakers have better things to do with their time".
Of course, if the issue were not raised by Congress, the thinking would be that "oh, this is clearly not an important enough issue since even Congress members for whom Native American issues are important are not mentioning it".
And it seems horribly insulting and counterproductive to lecture a Native American Congressman from Oklahoma about his state and about the Choctaw language.
Of course, if the issue were not raised by Congress, the thinking would be that "oh, this is clearly not an important enough issue since even Congress members for whom Native American issues are important are not mentioning it".
And it seems horribly insulting and counterproductive to lecture a Native American Congressman from Oklahoma about his state and about the Choctaw language.
Not that I agree at all with the name or the PR guy's song and dance, but this isn't analogous at all. And you forgot an n.drleather2001 said:
It is all good everyone. Dan Snyder has created the Washington Redskins Original Americans Foundation. He's even donated some coats !
http://files.redskins.com/pdf/Letter-from-Dan-Snyder-032414.pdf
This guy....
http://files.redskins.com/pdf/Letter-from-Dan-Snyder-032414.pdf
This guy....
mascho said:
The opening paragraph is one of the most tone deaf things I have ever read--to say nothing of invoking "Nation."
Edit: That whole thing is pretty incredible. I mean, I believe money will be spent to help... but it just reeks of ethnic tourism and noblesse-oblige--and like he made some radical discovery about the poverty and problems so many Native Americans face.
I suppose it's a step in the right direction, but it sorta underscores what an arse he is.
Um, I guess it's better than having a team named after a racial slur and not having a charitable foundation.
Kind of linguistically fun seeing "Original Americans" and "Native Americans" and even "Indians" used throughout the document. Tacit acknowledgement that there are acceptable things to call these ethnic groups, none of which his football team is named.
Kind of linguistically fun seeing "Original Americans" and "Native Americans" and even "Indians" used throughout the document. Tacit acknowledgement that there are acceptable things to call these ethnic groups, none of which his football team is named.
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