Tom Brady has 30,000 more yards than Aaron Rodgers and 174 TD passes. I assume Passing yards and TD passes are objective measures?
Patrick Mahomes: Next Generation Brady?
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It's silly. Brady beat him in the AFCCG because the Pats won the coin flip in OT. And Brady won SB LV because Mahomes' o-line was in shambles and got overwhelmed by the Bucs defense. Football is a team game, not a prize fight. And one player's greatness doesn't diminish another's.
But if we're going to use other objective measures, aside from counting stats (which would put Drew Brees second behind Brady), what can we use?
What Brady did in Arrowhead in that AFC Championship game was next level impressive.
This is among the reasons why I don't sweat any challenges to Brady's legacy. The guy was great for 23 seasons (or 22 and 1 game if you want to be technical). For someone to legitimately claim to be greater they would have to maintain their excellence for that long, and quite honestly I don't think any player now will choose to play that long, never mind maintain their body in the shape required to dominate for that long.
Agreed, but that was also true of Mahomes. I breathed a sigh of relief when Reid chose to kick the game tying FG rather than giving Mahomes one more chance to win the game with 11 seconds left.
I say this partially TIC, but if Kraft and BB had invested a little more at WR during the Brady years, or invested the Brady discount back into the offense, TB12 and the Pats might never have lost a game.
Brady had some great guys (Moss Gronk) and made some pretty good guys better (Branch, Patten, Givens, Welker, Jules) but he really never had the offensive weapons that Mahomes has
Brady had some great guys (Moss Gronk) and made some pretty good guys better (Branch, Patten, Givens, Welker, Jules) but he really never had the offensive weapons that Mahomes has
I mean, the Pats averaged a 13-3 record and an appearance in the AFCCG at the very least over the course of Brady's career there. I have a hard time thinking that somehow they could have been even better than that.
Brady's overall W-L record, including playoffs, is 286-95, a winning % of .750. Mahomes is currently at 90-25, .782, which is incredibly impressive but of course his career is nowhere as long yet and he hasn't hit a decline phase. Perhaps, like Brady, he'll never have one. We'll see.
Of course not, but we've seen these arguments applied against Brady in the past, so if so we'll need to do the same to Mahomes, right? The guy threw an INT in OT of the AFCCG against the Bengals of all teams and lost the game, how can he be the GOAT? /s
I think the takeaway is that Brady and Mahomes make their receivers great, or greater than they would be otherwise.
Mahomes is awesome right now. Complete package of physical and mental skills. He will hit an inflection point over the next few years where his physical skills start to decline. We'll find out if his mental skills can accommodate the difference, and that will be what determines the latter half of his career.
One parallel to Brady I'd draw: I've always wondered if the Scottish Game goes differently whether he would have played as long or been as motivated He has suggested maybe not in some of his comments but who knows if he would have found other motivation. If Mahomes three peats, I think his career ends up being shorter than if he doesn't.
One parallel to Brady I'd draw: I've always wondered if the Scottish Game goes differently whether he would have played as long or been as motivated He has suggested maybe not in some of his comments but who knows if he would have found other motivation. If Mahomes three peats, I think his career ends up being shorter than if he doesn't.
100% agree.
We also aren’t getting into how good an offensive coordinator and play designer Reid is. He’s absolutely brilliant.
I think QBs make too much money and know too much about the risk of CTE for any of the current or upcoming ones to think about playing for 20+ years. Unless those puffy helmets really do limit concussions and become the vogue, I don't see anything changing that.
I think the impressive thing about Reid is that he has worked to remove his notable time management weaknesses. Even in the recent KC-Pats playoff game in Foxboro (Alex Smith was the KC QB), Reid messed up the time management at the end of the game. Ever since then, he has been spot on with his clock management. It's like he finally admitted he had a problem and got help for it.
Mahomes runs a lot more than Brady and plays more hero ball as he extends plays. So far, he hasn't gotten seriously injured with that playstyle. But all it takes is one play to change that.
This is silly. So, if the Chiefs win the next five Super Bowls in a row they aren't the best franchise ever? Two games between those teams and those quarterbacks isn't what decides the greatest of all time.
Probably true. Although the protections afforded to QBs also insulate them quite a bit. Particularly if they are smart (which Mahomes is) and turtle or throw it away when a sack is inevitable, especially during the dog days of the regular season. I have a feeling the outside the tackle box rule is the next thing to go on throwaways.
The way people assess it is SB wins. Mahomes is the favorite to win this year. If he wins 3 in a row the discussion begins in earnest as does Reid/Belichick.
And should've thrown a walk-off pick-six the play before that went right through Eli Apple's hands. That game (along with SB 55) is the biggest stain on his career so far, but it could've been taken to another level.
They’re the best franchise ever if they win the next Superbowl.
But that doesn’t necessarily apply to Mahomes. Mahomes lost at home to Brady and then lost on a neutral site again to Brady when Brady went to a new team and coach.
I think Mahomes can become the greatest but it would take a lot more than for the Chiefs. Brady’s legacy is far more secure than the Patriots. In my opinion, entirely based on his Super Bowl win over Mahomes which showed he could do it at an older age and on a new team with different coaching after doing it earlier.
To me, Mahomes needs 2 more Super Bowls to become 1A. It’s very possible because that’s how good he is but it’s hard for me to imagine him ever getting toward 1 and would take at least 5 more. (wins, not appearances)
I don't understand this argument. So, if Mahomes retires with 10 Super Bowl titles he isn't the best ever just because he went 0-2 in head-to-head with Brady?
He’s better than Brady even though Mahomes lost to Brady both times they played in the playoffs? The specific results matter in addition to the body of work. If they both have 7 Super Bowls, for me it matters that one player bested the other and did so for different teams.
That doesn’t make me claim Eli Manning is better than Brady. But Eli is remembered as a good QB because of the 2 superbowls wins and would be considered a bust without them. A first overall pick who forced his way out of San Diego and ultimately underperformed the QB he was traded for became a clutch performer on the strength of two critical Superbowls.
Mahomes can overcome the losses to Brady but he will have to do so by significantly outperforming him. 8 Superbowls is probably not enough, imo, but I guess we will see how he wins those 7 or 8 Super bowls and judge then. 10? It’s much more likely that would be enough of a body of work for me to consider him the greatest.
LOL that we’re discussing 8 Super Bowls. Brady broke the game and peoples brains.
That said - 8 isn’t a crazy thought!
That said - 8 isn’t a crazy thought!
Mahomes has had the best career start at the position in NFL history by quite a comfortable margin. At age 29 no one had accomplished as much in terms of titles, individual awards, volume stats and efficiency. He's basically a combo of early years Peyton and early years Brady at this point. If he keeps this up for another 10 years, he'll be the GOAT, if he keeps it up for another 5 or 6 there's a good chance he'll be in the conversation, but as we saw with Tom, it's hard to just pencil in titles and sometimes even the best of the best go through long periods of coming up short. Maybe he's such a unique talent that he'll buck this trend, but I wouldn't bet on it. Don't see any way he retires at anything lesser than number 2 on that list, though.
It is funny that Mahomes' last two SB wins were Patriots like in that if one play turns another way, the result is different. Hurts' fumble scoop and score turned the SB two years ago and SF's idiotic decision to take the OT kickoff and not go for the end zone on 4th down.
KC did just enough to win. Just like the Pats used to do.
Brady is a unicorn in that he is elite in all three ways that matter:
- His peak performance was absolutely elite. 2007 was one of the best seasons any QB could possibly have had. 3x MVP, 4x 2nd place MVP, 2x 3rd place MVP, 1x 5th place MVP, so 10 times he was in the top 5 in MVP voting - insane. Led the NFL in key passing stats (pass yds, pass TD, passer rating) 12 times. I think other QBs have had peaks that are as good, or even better, than Brady, but Brady's peak is still one of the best ever.
- His career compiled stats are obviously elite. This is where playing for a long time clearly helps. But he's put up mind-boggling career numbers. He is #1 in NFL history in this category.
- Winning. Whatever dispute people may have about comparative talent, or individual awards, or whatever, one thing is not up for debate because it's objectively true, is that Brady is the greatest WINNER the NFL has ever seen, by a humongous margin.
So Brady is the greatest ever in two of these three categories, by very, very large margins. And he's inner circle elite in the other one. That's a heck of a lot for someone else to overcome. So far, Mahomes is right with Brady in terms of peak (might even be better than Brady), but he's got a long way to go for the other two.
- His peak performance was absolutely elite. 2007 was one of the best seasons any QB could possibly have had. 3x MVP, 4x 2nd place MVP, 2x 3rd place MVP, 1x 5th place MVP, so 10 times he was in the top 5 in MVP voting - insane. Led the NFL in key passing stats (pass yds, pass TD, passer rating) 12 times. I think other QBs have had peaks that are as good, or even better, than Brady, but Brady's peak is still one of the best ever.
- His career compiled stats are obviously elite. This is where playing for a long time clearly helps. But he's put up mind-boggling career numbers. He is #1 in NFL history in this category.
- Winning. Whatever dispute people may have about comparative talent, or individual awards, or whatever, one thing is not up for debate because it's objectively true, is that Brady is the greatest WINNER the NFL has ever seen, by a humongous margin.
So Brady is the greatest ever in two of these three categories, by very, very large margins. And he's inner circle elite in the other one. That's a heck of a lot for someone else to overcome. So far, Mahomes is right with Brady in terms of peak (might even be better than Brady), but he's got a long way to go for the other two.
The difference is that Brady never had a stinker in the SB like Mahomes did in SB LV against the Bucs.
That's true.
Brady never got blown out in a SB. In fact, every single one came down to a final play or two, except for the Mahomes one. It is kind of crazy that Brady's only SB blowout win was with TB. And his losses also swung on a single play, too.
I think he's been underwhelming in the big game in general. Even against the Eagles the statline looks pretty, but I thought it wasn't necessarily a great performance.
I'm sincerely curious what makes you actually dislike him, as opposed to merely "not wanting him to surpass Tom Brady". Seems pretty middle of the road kind of guy to me, hasn't said or done any stupid shit, supports women's sports, reportedly drinks his face off on the golf course... something about his sideline demeanor? I guess I'm really asking about your word "especially" here.
Yeah, Brady was an incredible corner in that game. He really shut down Mahomes.
Most of the people around him suck and his voice is annoying as hell, but there's nothing really objectionable about him personally.
Don’t know what he’s like after dark, but he’s married to his hs sweetheart, does ok in commercials, has never been in trouble or controversial, plays hard, comes from not the easiest family but still has his head right and is the most physically gifted qb I’ve ever seen. You’d really have to try hard to dislike the guy.
I find Mahomes himself to be a perfectly likable player, although his antics after the Kadarius Toney offsides game last year diminished that a bit. His acted like a petulant baby. If he does that a few more times, his popularity across the NFL will likely wane a little.
I know absolutely zero about the guy off the football field. Mostly I dislike his play, and to be real specific, those plays where he runs down the sideline and touches a toe on the sideline to draw the late hit penalty. I get that it is perfectly legal, and that he is a master at it, it it bugs me to no end. I don’t think I am alone with that.
One other thing that is completely outside of his control is the media ballwashing. One play stands out: he throws a pass completely off his feet, and sideways. “Oh my God did you see that play? He is magnificent!”. The pass was incomplete.
I also hate the way his helmet sits on his head. /s
One other thing that is completely outside of his control is the media ballwashing. One play stands out: he throws a pass completely off his feet, and sideways. “Oh my God did you see that play? He is magnificent!”. The pass was incomplete.
I also hate the way his helmet sits on his head. /s
Man wait until I tell you about the type of shenanigans BB got up to against the Ravens a few years back.
"So, trying to be objective, Pats fans, what does Mahomes need to do to pass Brady in the GOAT rankings? "
Objectively speaking, it will be when he dons a Patriots uniform and wins his 8th ring after going 18-0 in the regular season. Only then
Objectively speaking, it will be when he dons a Patriots uniform and wins his 8th ring after going 18-0 in the regular season. Only then
True but Brady had plenty of those moments.
Thinking about the best qbs of my adult life in terms of likability it’s a motley crew.
You had the sex criminals like Ben, Watson and I’ll throw Favre in here coupled with his fraud.
Peyton threw his teammates under the bus a lot. Maybe he yelled at refs. I forget. Also they shit from college and the hgh.
Brady and Russell seem like good guys but there’s reasonable arguments they’re weird.
Rodgers, not always a team player and unmentionable stuff.
Lamar, Brees, and Mahomes are the only top tier guys you can’t say a word about.
Sure I’m forgetting someone? McNabb and Ryan aren’t that level.
As many people have noted, Brady had two HOF-worthy blocks of time (essentially first 10 years; last 10 years).
Mahomes has basically already had one HOF-worthy block of time.
Let's see what the next 10 years look like.
Mahomes has basically already had one HOF-worthy block of time.
Let's see what the next 10 years look like.
Brees had the national anthem controversy.
I mean Eminem has a verse on the song “The Adventures of Moon Man and Slim” where he literally says “fuck Drew Brees”. You can say plenty about him
I'll preface this by saying that the trend towards constantly arguing who the "GOAT" is in every single fucking sport has grown extremely tiresome, and is a major reason why sports talk and social media suck. The fact that there's someone in this thread basically arguing Mahomes can never surpass Brady because he lost 2 H2H playoff games (one of which was in Mahomes' first year as a starter and came down to an OT coin flip) says it all. It's even dumber that this conversation is happening when Mahomes likely has half of his career still left to play.
That said...
Brady wasn't super impressive in either Super Bowl win against the Rams, the defense carried them in both games. I'm still not sure how Brady won the MVP in XXXIV over Ty Law. Yeah, bitter Rams fan here, but I'm just saying that while Brady never had a "stinker" performance, he has a couple wins where he played fairly mediocre. If Brady had to play the Bucs defense behind the Chiefs patchwork offensive line in that game, it would have been even uglier than Mahomes.
I think if Mahomes gets a third in a row this year, it will be a big talking point in his favor at the end of his career if he gets within shouting distance of Brady in counting stats or total rings. Most people will still prefer Brady unless Mahomes gets 8, and if they both finish with 7 (or Mahomes finishes with 6 but has a run of 3 or 4 in a row) the debate will never end. But in the grand scheme of things, it's all opinion and there will never be a consensus. I'm in SF and there's still plenty of people around here that argue for Montana (I can't believe I've found myself in arguments where I'm advocating for the guy that's beaten my team in 2 Super Bowls, but here we are).
Brady was great. Mahomes is great. They have very different playing styles that makes for a fun debate. They're both first-ballot Hall of Famers. Let's wait until Mahomes is done then we can argue who was better while telling kids to get off our lawns.
That said...
Brady wasn't super impressive in either Super Bowl win against the Rams, the defense carried them in both games. I'm still not sure how Brady won the MVP in XXXIV over Ty Law. Yeah, bitter Rams fan here, but I'm just saying that while Brady never had a "stinker" performance, he has a couple wins where he played fairly mediocre. If Brady had to play the Bucs defense behind the Chiefs patchwork offensive line in that game, it would have been even uglier than Mahomes.
I think if Mahomes gets a third in a row this year, it will be a big talking point in his favor at the end of his career if he gets within shouting distance of Brady in counting stats or total rings. Most people will still prefer Brady unless Mahomes gets 8, and if they both finish with 7 (or Mahomes finishes with 6 but has a run of 3 or 4 in a row) the debate will never end. But in the grand scheme of things, it's all opinion and there will never be a consensus. I'm in SF and there's still plenty of people around here that argue for Montana (I can't believe I've found myself in arguments where I'm advocating for the guy that's beaten my team in 2 Super Bowls, but here we are).
Brady was great. Mahomes is great. They have very different playing styles that makes for a fun debate. They're both first-ballot Hall of Famers. Let's wait until Mahomes is done then we can argue who was better while telling kids to get off our lawns.
You know what's crazy? How close Brady came to winning 5 in row from 2014-2018. They were basically 2 plays away.
And then you throw in that they could have won 5 out of 7 from 2001-2007.
He had so many chances. 7 is an unreal number. With a few bounces, it could have been 11. And obviously, with a few bounces the other way, it could have been like 1.
And then you throw in that they could have won 5 out of 7 from 2001-2007.
He had so many chances. 7 is an unreal number. With a few bounces, it could have been 11. And obviously, with a few bounces the other way, it could have been like 1.
Yeah I guess I just try to practice sports love over hate. If a person has an issue with Brees and Mahomes or multiple of guys on that tier it might be an internal issue. I get a rivalry against one of them that gets personal but I think they’re pretty objectively inoffensive. Especially in context. WRs get a bad rap, but this generation of QBs was naughty.
But this is basically true of almost every one. We could strip Mahomes of a couple very easily with a bounce or two, and we could also give him more than he has with the same bounce or two criteria.
I have an idea. Let's start typing out Eminem verses and see who gets banned from SoSH first.
I agree with you. I enjoy watching Mahomes, Josh Allen, Lamar, etc. As long as they aren’t Big Ben or Watson types I say put your fandom aside and enjoy the show… unless they are playing the Pats, of course.
I find the GOAT arguments tired too. There are so many awesome things about this sport you can dig into and learn about or discuss. GOAT stuff is like junk food. Yeah sure it’s fun to snack on from time to time but it’s not really substantive.