Patriots 1st for a head coach/ front office?

Mike Thomas 802

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If you could trade the Patriots 1st round pick for any coach or front office, or coach AND front office what would it take?

Let's assume the coach/ front office personnel would be under contract for four years with a team option for a fifth, same as a draft pick.

The Pats are currently sitting 1/1- would you give that potential talent up for better management?
 

ponch73

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I would trade the 1st round pick for any of the following:
(1) Chiefs front office and Andy Reid
(2) Lions front office and Ben Johnson
(3) Ravens front office

Alternatively, I would trade pretty much any player on the roster other than Maye or Christian Gonzalez to Cleveland for Dorian Thompson-Robinson so I could start him at QB next week against the Bills. And then I would shove Elliott Wolf and Jerod Mayo out of a moving car on the way after the game.

Wolf's replacement's compensation would be tied to the performance of his/her draft picks relative to consensus. Mayo's replacement would need, at a minimum, to have been an NFL offensive or defensive coordinator or college head coach.
 

Ale Xander

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Chiefs or Broncos or Rams or Lions for sure

maybe Ravens or Steelers or Commies or Vikings too
 

sezwho

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No, but I’d take along looks the groups above plus Pittsburghs wr and the entire SF operation look pretty sharp.
 

Archer1979

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I'll concede that my knowledge of NCAA Div 1 football is a bit dated, but I don't think that UNC has much interest in the number 1 pick in the NFL Draft. But, hey, let's run it up the flag pole.
 

Red Averages

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The Pats are in great position to have the largest salary cap space by a mile, the #1 overall pick, a very promising 22 year old QB and shutdown corner with multiple years on their rookie contracts. The Pats are arguably a top 5-10 landing spot for any coach or GM. If you want a staff that’ll be here for 15-20 years you can’t be going after Andy Reid or trading the #1 overall pick for assistant coaches that are free to sign here anyway.
 

ponch73

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The Pats are in great position to have the largest salary cap space by a mile, the #1 overall pick, a very promising 22 year old QB and shutdown corner with multiple years on their rookie contracts. The Pats are arguably a top 5-10 landing spot for any coach or GM. If you want a staff that’ll be here for 15-20 years you can’t be going after Andy Reid or trading the #1 overall pick for assistant coaches that are free to sign here anyway.
Hypothetically speaking, don't underestimate the ability of a foolish, attention-seeking, penny-pinching owner and his insufferable, meddling son to make a coach or GM opening a much less attractive landing spot. I'd also assume hypothetically that, behind closed doors, a now-deposed six-time Super Bowl winning coach and his allies aren't doing any favors to his former employers' reputations.
 

Red Averages

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Don't underestimate the ability of a foolish, atttention-seeking, penny-pinching owner and his insufferable, meddling son to make the Pats a much less attractive landing spot. I'd also assume that, behind closed doors, BB and his allies aren't doing any favors to the Krafts' reputations.
Do you have any actual data or facts to support these opinions? The Pats are a premier franchise in great position for the next 10 years. Everything else you’ve said makes this entire thread lose any credibility since we can’t even have basic level of conversation on it.
 

Myt1

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Do you have any actual data or facts to support these opinions? The Pats are a premier franchise in great position for the next 10 years. Everything else you’ve said makes this entire thread lose any credibility since we can’t even have basic level of conversation on it.
What data and facts makes them a “premier franchise” or in great position for the next 10 years?

I believe that they were a premier franchise, because of two guys who were absolute all world, all time talents. But they’re both gone.

You mentioned two actual players, one of which is a rookie who has physical tools, but needs to improve. They need massive improvements, pretty much everywhere else, and players aren’t widgets, and there’s no guarantee that the best ones will be free agents or come here, or that the draft (which is more of a crapshoot than most give it credit for) will shake out.

What are the other premier franchises, and why?
 

ponch73

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Do you have any actual data or facts to support these opinions? The Pats are a premier franchise in great position for the next 10 years. Everything else you’ve said makes this entire thread lose any credibility since we can’t even have basic level of conversation on it.
Your thread policing is tiresome and I'm happy to let you move on to other threads with more credibility.

To anyone else who's still interested in this thread, I will share the following, cursory batch of anecdotal evidence about Pats ownership.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5382676/2024/04/03/nfl-free-agency-best-worst-insiders-reactions/

https://www.si.com/nfl/patriots/news/new-england-patriots-nflpa-report-card-failing-grades-weight-room-families-bill-belichick-robert-kraft

https://musketfire.com/posts/robert-kraft-has-become-the-cheapest-owner-in-boston-sports-01hh370gk6c4

https://musketfire.com/posts/fellow-nfl-executives-bury-robert-kraft-patriots-cheapness

https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2024/04/what-are-the-patriots-doing-nfl-execs-slam-robert-kraft-for-being-cheap-report.html

Multiple free agents declining to sign with Pats during offseason prior to 2024 season.

Finally, I'd add that producing a film that character assassinates your 6-time Super Bowl winning coach on his way out is a terrible look to future GM and head coach candidates.
 

Ale Xander

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The Pats are a premier franchise in great position for the next 10 years.
What basis is there in the ownership, non-ownership management, geography, team ambassadors/players, or facilities gives you confidence to make this statement?
 

luckiestman

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What data and facts makes them a “premier franchise” or in great position for the next 10 years?

I believe that they were a premier franchise, because of two guys who were absolute all world, all time talents. But they’re both gone.

You mentioned two actual players, one of which is a rookie who has physical tools, but needs to improve. They need massive improvements, pretty much everywhere else, and players aren’t widgets, and there’s no guarantee that the best ones will be free agents or come here, or that the draft (which is more of a crapshoot than most give it credit for) will shake out.
I think they are far from a premier franchise so we agree on that. Of the expected jobs available, I think if the Pats came open it is attractive because the kid looks good. I might even say it is the most attractive but I am not yet a Caleb believer. This has more to do with how bad the other situations are. Jets have a lot of talent but Rodgers is probably gone so who is the QB?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I like Maye for sure, but where does he rank among NFL QB’s, for the next 5 years or so? Would be interesting to project that out a bit.

Top NFL QBs by age (under 30)

29: Mayfield, Goff
28: Allen, Mahomes
27: Jackson, Darnold, Murray, Burrow
26: Tua, Herbert, Hurts
25: Love, Lawrence
24: Purdy, Nix, Penix
23: Young, Daniels
22: Maye, Stroud, Richardson, Williams

Wonder who will be the most valuable QB’s over the next five years from this group? Guessing Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Love…and then, not sure? But could certainly make a case for Maye being under consideration. And his low salary certainly helps.
 

twibnotes

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Eagles front office seems really good (great draft, Barkley signing…Pickett signing looks really smart now)…but wouldn’t want Sirianni
 

Myt1

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I think they are far from a premier franchise so we agree on that. Of the expected jobs available, I think if the Pats came open it is attractive because the kid looks good. I might even say it is the most attractive but I am not yet a Caleb believer. This has more to do with how bad the other situations are. Jets have a lot of talent but Rodgers is probably gone so who is the QB?
The main reason not to go to the Jets (ever) is the owner, IMHO. But the QB situation certainly doesn’t help.

I just don’t know what the Patriots bring to the table as a franchise. Maye looks great physically, and seems to have the character/gumption for the position, but has his rookie year been better than Mac Jones’s (yes, Jones had better coaching/supporting cast)? The facilities and treatment of players’ families have gotten poor NFLPA rankings, we don’t really have any sort of a local football culture here to speak of (youth, high school, college), the weather and nightlife suck, and the team was known far more as a laughingstock in its history, until catching an absolute bolt from the blue with a sixth round pick.

What am I missing (not asking you, @luckiestman—though feel free to answer ;) )?
 
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luckiestman

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The main reason not to go to the Jets (ever) is the owner, IMHO. But the QB situation certainly doesn’t help.

I just don’t know what the Patriots bring to the table as a franchise. Maye looks great physically, and seems to have the character/gumption for the position, but has his rookie year been better than Mac Jones’s (yes, Jones had better coaching/supporting cast)? The facilities and treatment of players’ families have gotten poor NFLPA rankings, we don’t really have any sort of a local football culture here to speak of (youth, high school, college), and the team was known far more as a laughingstock in its history, until catching an absolute bolt from the blue with a sixth round pick.

What am I missing (not asking you, @luckiestman—though feel free to answer ;) )?
I like Maye’s traits way more than even the best version of Mac. Everything else you said is correct but here are the other openings:

Saints, no QB cap hell
Jets
Raiders, no QB but should be able to draft one but I don’t like the draftees
Bears, better if you like Caleb
Jags, Lawrence got paid and is now always hurt
Giants, no qb
Dallas

So, it’s not so much that the Pats are great it’s that many of these jobs are going to take a lot of work. Having a high draft pick while your cheap QB is in place plus cap room makes it more attractive than the other jobs.

If you’re a GM/HC it’s not so much that the Krafts or Foxborough or the roster overall is great in a vacuum it’s that it is comparatively great.

This is why I hope you keep Mayo because I think any of the good candidates might take NE. I want the fewest openings to help me out. I’m hoping it is a year of ownership patience.
 

cornwalls@6

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The main reason not to go to the Jets (ever) is the owner, IMHO. But the QB situation certainly doesn’t help.

I just don’t know what the Patriots bring to the table as a franchise. Maye looks great physically, and seems to have the character/gumption for the position, but has his rookie year been better than Mac Jones’s (yes, Jones had better coaching/supporting cast)? The facilities and treatment of players’ families have gotten poor NFLPA rankings, we don’t really have any sort of a local football culture here to speak of (youth, high school, college), the weather and nightlife suck, and the team was known far more as a laughingstock in its history, until catching an absolute bolt from the blue with a sixth round pick.

What am I missing (not asking you, @luckiestman—though feel free to answer ;) )?
I believe they have just made a substantial financial commitment to upgrading facilities. What makes them attractive is Maye, draft capital, and cap room. And course money, if the Krafts will pay top rate for an elite GM/Coach combo. A big if, granted. I’m not sure local football culture or their now pretty distant history(this year notwithstanding )as a laughing stock would have much relevance either way. Winning(or at least the possibility of it) and money. Same as it usually is.
 
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lars10

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The main reason not to go to the Jets (ever) is the owner, IMHO. But the QB situation certainly doesn’t help.

I just don’t know what the Patriots bring to the table as a franchise. Maye looks great physically, and seems to have the character/gumption for the position, but has his rookie year been better than Mac Jones’s (yes, Jones had better coaching/supporting cast)? The facilities and treatment of players’ families have gotten poor NFLPA rankings, we don’t really have any sort of a local football culture here to speak of (youth, high school, college), the weather and nightlife suck, and the team was known far more as a laughingstock in its history, until catching an absolute bolt from the blue with a sixth round pick.

What am I missing (not asking you, @luckiestman—though feel free to answer ;) )?
If you ignore the best twenty year run of any team it's going to be hard to come up with any good teams ever in the NFL, no?.. what are the Chiefs without Mahomes and Reid, Pittsburgh without Bradshaw, Packers without Lombardi? etc. Pats did at least go to the Super Bowl two other times before Brady and Bill, they weren't always a laughingstock in the 80s and 90s...losing to the Bears notwithstanding.

Nightlife does suck, but do players have a lot of time for that during the season? Football especially seems bad since the games are always weekend... going out in most cities on a Tuesday or Wednesday isn't all that great.

Main reason to come to NE is going to be the amount of money they can spend on FAs, a cost controlled QB.. coaching staff is most likely a downside and the ownership leaves something to be desired... but you do at least have a fanbase that shows up week after week.
 

Myt1

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If you ignore the best twenty year run of any team it's going to be hard to come up with any good teams ever in the NFL, no?.. what are the Chiefs without Mahomes and Reid, Pittsburgh without Bradshaw, Packers without Lombardi? etc. Pats did at least go to the Super Bowl two other times before Brady and Bill, they weren't always a laughingstock in the 80s and 90s...losing to the Bears notwithstanding.

Nightlife does suck, but do players have a lot of time for that during the season? Football especially seems bad since the games are always weekend... going out in most cities on a Tuesday or Wednesday isn't all that great.

Main reason to come to NE is going to be the amount of money they can spend on FAs, a cost controlled QB.. coaching staff is most likely a downside and the ownership leaves something to be desired... but you do at least have a fanbase that shows up week after week.
You understand that I was responding to a claim that they currently are a premier franchise, right?
 

kenneycb

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How would you define “premier”?

Forbes has them as the third most valuable. Obviously a very imperfect science given the Rams are 2 and wouldn’t define as premier but implies they’re “up there” in whatever this nebulous term means. Obviously they’re going through a downstretch which hurts their standing but I would assume a good offseason and decent 2025 (8-9 showing promise) would lead to more prime time stuff associated with being a Cowboys-esque franchise.
 

lars10

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You understand that I was responding to a claim that they currently are a premier franchise, right?
Yes. Part of your answer was "and the team was known far more as a laughingstock in its history, until catching an absolute bolt from the blue with a sixth round pick." which I took as being part of your reason that you thought they weren't a premier fanchise... which was what I was responding to. On most of the other stuff I agreed with you.
 

kenneycb

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Yes. Part of your answer was "and the team was known far more as a laughingstock in its history, until catching an absolute bolt from the blue with a sixth round pick." which I took as being part of your reason that you thought they weren't a premier fanchise... which was what I was responding to. On most of the other stuff I agreed with you.
It extends back to Bledsoe. They’ve been varying degrees of mediocre to great since 1993 outside the last two years and BB’s first year.
 

lars10

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It extends back to Bledsoe. They’ve been varying degrees of mediocre to great since 1993 outside the last two years.
Yeah... part of what I said was that I did think that the Pats being in the Super Bowl twice in ten years, before Brady, puts them above a lot of teams just by that. But I guess the question is whether the Pats are 'currently' a premier franchise and if history has anything to do with whether or not a franchise meets the definition of premier.
 

kenneycb

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I think it’s a stupid distinction to be arguing about as it’s clearly shorthand for some variation of “recently successful franchise with stable ownership and in general a positive external view compared to other franchises” given the first post had 5 concrete reasons for why the Pats are attractive. I don’t feel it’s controversial to say the Pats are a good franchise without many obvious red flags like the Raiders, Browns, etc. that would detract talent from coming there. Choosing to argue whether or not they’re “premier” when that was like the 8th supporting point arguing against an over the top biased take on ownership of a league that has 32 opportunities to be a head coach or GM is odd.
 
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Myt1

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I think it’s a stupid distinction to be arguing about as it’s clearly shorthand for some variation of “recently successful franchise with stable ownership and in general a positive external view compared to other franchises” given the first post had 5 concrete reasons for why the Pats are attractive. I don’t feel it’s controversial to say the Pats are a good franchise without many obvious red flags like the Raiders, Browns, etc. that would detract talent from coming there. Choosing to argue whether or not they’re “premier” when that was like the 8th supporting point arguing against an over the top biased take on ownership of a league that has 32 opportunities to be a head coach or GM is odd.
What’s good about the franchise? They have the least talent in the league. Their last choice about GM and coach, made just a year ago, do not seem to have worked out (and were both made in strange circumstances). Their recent decisions about coordinators have been terrible. They are reported to have slimed the last head coach on his way out the door, and made and released a “documentary” sliming him on his way out the door. They lost the GOAT QB in free agency. Their owner had a big public distraction. They spent less than the league average over the period for which I could find stats, despite having the GOAT QB on relatively team friendly deals.

Rather than, “It’s not controversial to say,” why not make the case? They have the number 1 pick and a promising 22 year old QB specifically because they’ve been a disaster lately. Those are possible points in favor of coming here, but they also cut the other way, especially given the broader lack of talent and general difficulty of building through free agency. Which recent teams with the worst record and DVOAs in the league have really turned it around quickly for their new coach/GM? Cincinnati looks like a bit of a success story, but they had five straight below .500 finishes before they flipped things around, and they have a culture of giving their coaches a ton of rope.

What’s the “general positive external view” of the Patriots, and who holds that view, such that a last place team that sucks is totally where they’re dying to be?
 
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Myt1

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I mean, if the argument is “They had Tom Brady and Bill Belichick and won a lot for a long time,” then no shit. That couldn’t even get them an experienced OC last season.
 

Devizier

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I think franchise history is nearly irrelevant. Football holds up the past less than any of the other major sports, and there are few opportunities to take a head coaching or GM position. The one thing that does matter is ownership, their willingness to stay out of the way, etc. The Patriots are admittedly a bit dicier on that front than they used to appear.
 

kenneycb

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What’s good about the franchise? They have the least talent in the league. Their last choice about GM and coach, made just a year ago, do not seem to have worked out (and were both made in strange circumstances). Their recent decisions about coordinators have been terrible. They are reported to have slimed the last head coach on his way out the door, and made and released a “documentary” sliming him on his way out the door. They lost the GOAT QB in free agency. Their owner had a big public distraction. They spent less than the league average over the period for which I could find stats, despite having the GOAT QB on relatively team friendly deals.

Rather than, “It’s not controversial to say,” why not make the case? They have the number 1 pick and a promising 22 year old QB specifically because they’ve been a disaster lately. Those are possible points in favor of coming here, but they also cut the other way, especially given the broader lack of talent and general difficulty of building through free agency. Which recent teams with the worst record and DVOAs in the league have really turned it around quickly for their new coach/GM? Cincinnati looks like a bit of a success story, but they had five straight below .500 finishes before they flipped things around, and they have a culture of giving their coaches a ton of rope.

What’s the “general positive external view” of the Patriots, and who holds that view, such that a last place team that sucks is totally where they’re dying to be?
The Pats are in great position to have the largest salary cap space by a mile, the #1 overall pick, a very promising 22 year old QB and shutdown corner with multiple years on their rookie contracts. The Pats are arguably a top 5-10 landing spot for any coach or GM. If you want a staff that’ll be here for 15-20 years you can’t be going after Andy Reid or trading the #1 overall pick for assistant coaches that are free to sign here anyway.
That’s the case. I’m sure there’s other edge stuff you could include but the above and the fact they are 1 of 32 landing spots would be the best parts of the case. As I stated, I think it’s stupid to be arguing the point you are arguing with such force yet here we are.

I also would not place the Krafts as a Tepper / Snyder-esque group. No idea how it compares to other owners but they aren’t the worst.
 
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Myt1

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That’s the case. I’m sure there’s other edge stuff you could include but the above and the fact they are 1 of 32 landing spots would be the best parts of the case. As I stated, I think it’s stupid to be arguing the point you are arguing with such force yet here we are.

I also would not place the Krafts as a Tepper / Snyder-esque group. No idea how it compares to other owners but they aren’t the worst.
The fact that they’re one of a limited number of teams is an argument in favor of the being a good landing spot, relative to the other teams?

OK, dude.

I think Patriots fans are blind to how bad they look right now, and stuff like calling a last place team a premier franchise and a relatively desirable destination illustrates that.

The argument is that they’re a top 5-10 destination. Two of your points in favor are that they are a destination, and don’t have the worst owner. You also haven’t responded at all to how their complete lack of talent, or any of the amateur hour actions over the past few years, affect their relative standing.

I guess we’ll see, though. Surely ownership wouldn’t pass on a chance to bring in more experienced GM/Head Coach, given their relative desirability.
 
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lexrageorge

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Actual cash spending is an imperfect metric due to the nature of the league's salary cap. Pats wrote lots of checks in 2021, and doing so made it impossible to throw a lot of cash around (relative to the league's other teams) in 2022 and again in 2023. The imperfect (and unscientific) poll about team facilities is now out of date given the renovations that have already taken place and are scheduled to take place.

Obviously, the team is not going to be players' first choice for free agents. While calling the Patriots one of the NFL's premier franchises based on history is not inaccurate, that history is mostly irrelevant to pending free agents and completely irrelevant to the team's chances in 2025. Getting Tee Higgins is a long shot. But there are always plenty of OL and DL available, and with their cap space they should be able to get creative and land some players. If Wolf (assuming he's still GM) doesn't, he should be fired for GM malpractice.

Relevant to the thread title, I would rather have the pick right now. Players and talent matter.
 

Mooch

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I think the blueprint for the Pats would be the Commanders. Coming off a disasterous season with a top 3 pick and the most cap space in the league, they did the following:

Clean house at GM/Coach. Washington took an up-and-coming guy with good experience on solid teams as GM (Peters) and a no-nonense head coach (Quinn) with a solid offensive mind to help a young QB (Kingsbury). This seems like the first place to start.

Shore up your weak spots and spend heavily in Free agency. Guys like Allegreti and Biadasz shored up a terrible offensive line, vets like Ekeler and Ertz added needed depth, solid additions on defense (Wagner, Armstrong, Luvu, Chinn).

Draft well: Obviously Daniels was the get but we all think that Maye is the real deal as well. Brandon Coleman has been a solid tackle and Newton has contributed on the D-Line. Sainristil has been a solid DB too and now they're even getting contributions from the latter round guys. They NAILED their 2024 draft, clearly and the Pats need to do the same.
 

Myt1

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Actual cash spending is an imperfect metric due to the nature of the league's salary cap. Pats wrote lots of checks in 2021, and doing so made it impossible to throw a lot of cash around (relative to the league's other teams) in 2022 and again in 2023. The imperfect (and unscientific) poll about team facilities is now out of date given the renovations that have already taken place and are scheduled to take place.
Ok, so we need perfect metrics for the discussion?

I gave you 13 years of actual cash spend, because someone claimed that ownership doesn’t like to spend, and someone asked for data. What data would have been better in that regard?

Obviously, the team is not going to be players' first choice for free agents. While calling the Patriots one of the NFL's premier franchises based on history is not inaccurate, that history is mostly irrelevant to pending free agents and completely irrelevant to the team's chances in 2025. Getting Tee Higgins is a long shot. But there are always plenty of OL and DL available, and with their cap space they should be able to get creative and land some players. If Wolf (assuming he's still GM) doesn't, he should be fired for GM malpractice.

Relevant to the thread title, I would rather have the pick right now. Players and talent matter.
I would, too. Because I think that the team has been mismanaged into a very bad position, and that’s very difficult to change. My only real point is that those are detriments to obtaining talent, not selling points.
 

Myt1

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I think the blueprint for the Pats would be the Commanders. Coming off a disasterous season with a top 3 pick and the most cap space in the league, they did the following:

Clean house at GM/Coach. Washington took an up-and-coming guy with good experience on solid teams as GM (Peters) and a no-nonense head coach (Quinn) with a solid offensive mind to help a young QB (Kingsbury). This seems like the first place to start.

Shore up your weak spots and spend heavily in Free agency. Guys like Allegreti and Biadasz shored up a terrible offensive line, vets like Ekeler and Ertz added needed depth, solid additions on defense (Wagner, Armstrong, Luvu, Chinn).

Draft well: Obviously Daniels was the get but we all think that Maye is the real deal as well. Brandon Coleman has been a solid tackle and Newton has contributed on the D-Line. Sainristil has been a solid DB too and now they're even getting contributions from the latter round guys. They NAILED their 2024 draft, clearly and the Pats need to do the same.
I think this makes sense. But even the Commanders weren’t an overnight rebuild. They were under .500 for six of the previous seven seasons, and exactly .500 for the seventh. Which, I think, illustrates the difficulty of rebuilding and the relative desirability of such jobs relative to the rest of the league. So many things need to go right.
 

Garshaparra

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I think the blueprint for the Pats would be the Commanders. Coming off a disasterous season with a top 3 pick and the most cap space in the league, they did the following:

Clean house at GM/Coach. Washington took an up-and-coming guy with good experience on solid teams as GM (Peters) and a no-nonense head coach (Quinn) with a solid offensive mind to help a young QB (Kingsbury). This seems like the first place to start.

Shore up your weak spots and spend heavily in Free agency. Guys like Allegreti and Biadasz shored up a terrible offensive line, vets like Ekeler and Ertz added needed depth, solid additions on defense (Wagner, Armstrong, Luvu, Chinn).

Draft well: Obviously Daniels was the get but we all think that Maye is the real deal as well. Brandon Coleman has been a solid tackle and Newton has contributed on the D-Line. Sainristil has been a solid DB too and now they're even getting contributions from the latter round guys. They NAILED their 2024 draft, clearly and the Pats need to do the same.
You missed the first key part of the Commanders season: they sold the team. Dan Snyder seemed content to run out retread ancient coaches (Spurrier, Shottenheimer, Shanahan, Rivera and, sad to say it, Gibbs) and allowed two different GMs nearly a decade of middling failure (Vinny Cerrato, followed by Bruce Allen). He'd occasionally let the coach buy the groceries here and there, but never long enough to build any sort of a solid foundation. Josh Harris didn't have that history, and started fresh. I hate to say that the Krafts may need to sell the team for the Pats to return to success, but it may come to that.
 

Mooch

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I think this makes sense. But even the Commanders weren’t an overnight rebuild. They were under .500 for six of the previous seven seasons, and exactly .500 for the seventh. Which, I think, illustrates the difficulty of rebuilding and the relative desirability of such jobs relative to the rest of the league. So many things need to go right.
True, it's threading the needle for sure. But the one-season turnaround can be done with the correct vision and leadership. Remember, DC went 4-13 last year and was 31st in offensive DVOA.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think this makes sense. But even the Commanders weren’t an overnight rebuild. They were under .500 for six of the previous seven seasons, and exactly .500 for the seventh. Which, I think, illustrates the difficulty of rebuilding and the relative desirability of such jobs relative to the rest of the league. So many things need to go right.
Yup. Good news is that the Patriots at least have the most important piece in place. But after that? “Buzz, your girlfriend…woof”.
 

Mooch

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You missed the first key part of the Commanders season: they sold the team. Dan Snyder seemed content to run out retread ancient coaches (Spurrier, Shottenheimer, Shanahan, Rivera and, sad to say it, Gibbs) and allowed two different GMs nearly a decade of middling failure (Vinny Cerrato, followed by Bruce Allen). He'd occasionally let the coach buy the groceries here and there, but never long enough to build any sort of a solid foundation. Josh Harris didn't have that history, and started fresh. I hate to say that the Krafts may need to sell the team for the Pats to return to success, but it may come to that.
It's all about making the correct hires. The Krafts have taken bold swings in the past. Snyder never really did.
 

Myt1

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True, it's threading the needle for sure. But the one-season turnaround can be done with the correct vision and leadership. Remember, DC went 4-13 last year and was 31st in offensive DVOA.
Totally. And it’s quite obviously what we have to hope for. You and I are aligned.
 

luckiestman

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I think this makes sense. But even the Commanders weren’t an overnight rebuild. They were under .500 for six of the previous seven seasons, and exactly .500 for the seventh. Which, I think, illustrates the difficulty of rebuilding and the relative desirability of such jobs relative to the rest of the league. So many things need to go right.
Pats would also not be an overnight rebuild. Under .500 4 of last 5. #3 pick and potentially #1 back to back.

I’m losing the thread of what’s being debated so I’ll just state my claim. If Pats, warts and all, fire Mayo, I think they can attract someone better even given the current mismanagement from ownership or however we want to label ownership’s behavior.
 

Myt1

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Pats would also not be an overnight rebuild. Under .500 4 of last 5. #3 pick and potentially #1 back to back.

I’m losing the thread of what’s being debated so I’ll just state my claim. If Pats, warts and all, fire Mayo, I think they can attract someone better even given the current mismanagement from ownership or however we want to label ownership’s behavior.
I think they can too, but that’s damning with faint praise. :) There are a finite number of jobs that become available, and he’s bad.

One last point to kind of sum up: the Patriots used to be a desirable destination for a certain type of player, at least. They were drawn by a chance at a ring, a chance to catch balls from Brady, etc. Success breeds desirability. Now that we’re at the absolute opposite end of that spectrum, it’s tough for me to view this team as a desirable one for people to go to, relative to every other franchise. “Only two plus players (one of which is a rookie QB with one win), but a bunch of cap room!” wouldn’t blow my hair back as a potential GM. Maybe that’s crazy.
 

The Social Chair

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I think this makes sense. But even the Commanders weren’t an overnight rebuild. They were under .500 for six of the previous seven seasons, and exactly .500 for the seventh. Which, I think, illustrates the difficulty of rebuilding and the relative desirability of such jobs relative to the rest of the league. So many things need to go right.
Having your bad owner sell the team helps too.
 

Cellar-Door

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It's all about making the correct hires. The Krafts have taken bold swings in the past. Snyder never really did.
Worth noting that the new ownership put together a committee led by outside consultants to run their GM search then the GM lead the coaching search....
 

kenneycb

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The fact that they’re one of a limited number of teams is an argument in favor of the being a good landing spot, relative to the other teams?

OK, dude.

I think Patriots fans are blind to how bad they look right now, and stuff like calling a last place team a premier franchise and a relatively desirable destination illustrates that.

The argument is that they’re a top 5-10 destination. Two of your points in favor are that they are a destination, and don’t have the worst owner. You also haven’t responded at all to how their complete lack of talent, or any of the amateur hour actions over the past few years, affect their relative standing.

I guess we’ll see, though. Surely ownership wouldn’t pass on a chance to bring in more experienced GM/Head Coach, given their relative desirability.
Scarcity of opportunity makes even shitty opportunities attractive. So the job is going to be naturally attractive. Daniel Snyder was able to hire a lot of coaches

I think there are much worse owner situations in the NFL. I didn’t say top 5-10 and, again, think it’s a weird thing you’re glomming on to, but figure they’re probably close to 10 in an unscientific thought. The Pats are not the Bengals, Raiders, Bears, Browns, Panthers, Jets, Jaguars, or Cardinals. Probably others if you want to do a deeper analysis but I’m not interested in that. This is not a defense of the Krafts actions the last couple years. It’s also only one component of what makes a job attractive.

You are also not connecting a lot of cap space, high draft pick, and ability to restock the talent. Thats a unique opportunity and is likely attractive to a bunch of overconfident alphas especially since they may have the most important position set. Which is just me restating the points I bolded above.

That reads as a pretty good job to take, especially relative to other options out there.
 

johnmd20

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The Pats are not the Bengals, Raiders, Bears, Browns, Panthers, Jets, Jaguars, or Cardinals.
The thing is, since Tom Brady left, they are the Browns, Panthers, and Jets. And Raiders. They are the worst team in the NFL over the last two years. They are miles away from being the Cardinals and multiple galaxies away from being Cinncy.

What about being the worst team in the NFL over two years screams, "Great long term plan?"
 

snowmanny

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Last ranking I saw the Patriots were the third most valuable NFL team, behind Dallas and the Rams, and just ahead of the Giants and the Raiders. So, on the one hand they are a premier franchise. On the other hand, all the premier football franchises currently kind of suck at football. Glad I could clear this up for all of you.
 

Garshaparra

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True, it's threading the needle for sure. But the one-season turnaround can be done with the correct vision and leadership. Remember, DC went 4-13 last year and was 31st in offensive DVOA.
The Commanders turned over a ton of players on the offensive side over 2 years. In 2022, their starting offense looked like so:

WR Terry McLaurin
LT Charles Leno Jr.
LG Andrew Norwell
C Chase Roullier
RG Trai Turner
RT Sam Cosmi
TE Logan Thomas
WR Curtis Samuel
WR Jahan Dotson
QB Carson Wentz
RB Antonio Gibson

They finished in the bottom 3rd offensively, 20th in yards, 24th in points. They thought they were good at rushing (4th in attempts), but 12th in yards and 29th in rushing TDs belied this. In 2023, they turned over 6 positions, including QB:

WR Terry McLaurin
LT Charles Leno Jr.
* LG Saahdiq Charles - on the team in 2022, slotted behind Trai Turner.
* C Nick Gates - FA, 3 yrs/16M, cut by new management in 2024
* RG Sam Cosmi - moved from RT
* RT Andrew Wylie - FA, 3 yrs/23M
TE Logan Thomas
WR Curtis Samuel
WR Jahan Dotson
* QB Sam Howell - on the team in 2022, beat out Jacoby Brissett for starting role
RB Brian Robinson Jr.

In 2024, they turned over 7 of 11 players, with only one player moving up the bench:

WR Terry McLaurin
* LT Brandon Coleman - draft R3 (67)
* LG Nick Allegretti - FA 3 yrs/16M
* C Tyler Biadasz - FA 3 yrs/30M
RG Sam Cosmi
RT Andrew Wylie
* TE Zach Ertz - FA 1 yr/1M
* WR Dyami Brown - on the team in 2023, but slotted behind McLaurin on their depth chart.
* WR Olamide Zaccheaus - FA 1 yr/1M
* QB Jayden Daniels - draft R1 (2)
RB Brian Robinson Jr.

So indeed, an entire unit turnaround can happen in just two years. For 2025, McLaurin will be in his last season, and likely looking for an extension. Brown and Zaccheaus will be free agents. The Commanders will have nearly as much in cap money as the Pats (over $100M), so I expect they will be a huge suitor for Tee Higgins. If you were Higgins and had the choice, would you go to DC or NE?