Patriots Training Camp 2022

lexrageorge

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You're not wrong. But...

I mean....you can literally do this for every team in the league, virtually every year. Every team makes bad picks. LOTS of them. Every single team. Including Baltimore, who is widely considered to be the gold standard at roster building.
+1 many times over.

Seems like it's time for the obligatory reminder that mid 2nd rounders bust out more often that many realize. Drafted immediately after Williams was another Williams (Greedy), who's had slightly more success in fewer games (2 career INT's and 12 passes defended, albeit while missing the entire 2020 season) and safety Marquise Blair, who's been about as useful as JJ. Yes, getting either AJ Brown or Derek Metcalfe would have been a nice solution to their WR problems, but they could have just as easily ended up with JJ Arcega-Whiteside or Parris Campbell.

That draft, along with the few before it, will indeed haunt the Pats for a few years, however. And this will be the season we'll find out if the 2020 draft will be at all helpful (jury is still out, IMO).
 

BigSoxFan

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You're not wrong. But...

I mean....you can literally do this for every team in the league, virtually every year. Every team makes bad picks. LOTS of them. Every single team. Including Baltimore, who is widely considered to be the gold standard at roster building.
I will forever whine about the team screwing up the WR draft so egregiously in 2019. There was no reason they couldn’t have double downed on another WR and there were a shit ton of good ones available.
 

BigSoxFan

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Was that your thought when TB12 went out for the season with a knee injury in 2008?
No, I am not comparing TB to JJW. I'm just saying that although he may suck, injury luck is a thing.
Injury luck has nothing to do with it. JJW is a terrible player fully healthy. And he was picked before a lot of needed WRs. That was the miss along with the Harry disaster.
 

BaseballJones

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I will forever whine about the team screwing up the WR draft so egregiously in 2019. There was no reason they couldn’t have double downed on another WR and there were a shit ton of good ones available.
Well you can do whatever you wish. It's a (mostly) free country. But just remember that every single team makes TONS of mistakes in the draft, even the very best in the business.
 

BigSoxFan

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Well you can do whatever you wish. It's a (mostly) free country. But just remember that every single team makes TONS of mistakes in the draft, even the very best in the business.
Thanks, I will continue to do so. But I do appreciate you sticking up for Bill’s honor like that.
 

BaseballJones

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Thanks, I will continue to do so. But I do appreciate you sticking up for Bill’s honor like that.
Heh. Well he doesn't need my help. His track record speaks for itself.

Again...you're not wrong. JJW was a terrible pick. So was Harry before him in the 1st round, for that matter.
 

BigSoxFan

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Heh. Well he doesn't need my help. His track record speaks for itself.

Again...you're not wrong. JJW was a terrible pick. So was Harry before him in the 1st round, for that matter.
I can’t remember the last drafted big corner that worked out for this team. Anyone else besides Logan Ryan? Feel like our success is always with the sub 6’0 guys.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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I can’t remember the last drafted big corner that worked out for this team. Anyone else besides Logan Ryan? Feel like our success is always with the sub 6’0 guys.
I think the idea was to find a matchup to the Kelces, and ironically, Henrys and Smiths of the league. Put a big corner on a "TE" (just a large WR, usually)- rather than having a LB deal with coverage. Good plan, poor execution.
 

Jungleland

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Daring to get a bit optimistic about the cornerbacks. Seems pretty clear Butler and Mitchell are plan B or C at this point, and as much as I love the feel good stories of the former's return and the latter being the first man on the practice field nearly every day, I'm relieved by the positivity around the rookies, Jon Jones' health, and Mills.
 

Jimbodandy

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around the way

BigSoxFan

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Yeah, I can't think of any.
Looking at the draft list, there aren’t any that I see besides Ras-I Dowling and JoeJuan. Both busted out pretty quickly. Although Brandon Browner was a clear success as big corner. Ditto for Talib. So big corners can succeed here but they’ve got to be pretty damn good. Tons of smaller corner success, obviously. Hope to add 2 more names to that list.
 

Shelterdog

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Yeah, I can't think of any.
DMC although he obviously moved to safety fairly quickly.
The pats history of drafting and getting UDFAs in the secondary is bizarre. They have been nothing short of incredible everywhere but the second round. I’m not sure anyone has picked up multiple
Pro bowl corners after round two other than the pats over the past twenty years (Malcom Butler Asante JC Jackson) yet obviously terrible in the second round. I think the only sensible way to look at it is that over twenty years you’re just going to get weird results somewhere, and for the Pats that somewhere is the secondary
 

tims4wins

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DMC although he obviously moved to safety fairly quickly.
The pats history of drafting and getting UDFAs in the secondary is bizarre. They have been nothing short of incredible everywhere but the second round. I’m not sure anyone has picked up multiple
Pro bowl corners after round two other than the pats over the past twenty years (Malcom Butler Asante JC Jackson) yet obviously terrible in the second round. I think the only sensible way to look at it is that over twenty years you’re just going to get weird results somewhere, and for the Pats that somewhere is the secondary
DMC is only listed at 5'10 - I had thought of him too

To your main point: no one liked Tavon Wilson, but he ended up having a decent career for a 2nd rounder. Also, Eugene Wilson was picked in the 2nd back in 2003.
 

Shelterdog

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DMC is only listed at 5'10 - I had thought of him too

To your main point: no one liked Tavon Wilson, but he ended up having a decent career for a 2nd rounder. Also, Eugene Wilson was picked in the 2nd back in 2003.
I forgot about Eugene Wilson. And Tavon and Jordan Richard’s were both better picks than they get credit for. But even with those three and Chung (who they cut before he came
Back and played better) it’s ugly (Dawson Ras-I Wheatley and JJW were really really bad picks)
 
Apr 24, 2019
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Every team makes draft mistakes, absolutely. But Harry followed by JJW (who sources had as a possible option in the 1st for N.E.) is as close to unforgivable a one-two gut punch as any I can think of. Horrific, esp given the CLEAR system fits at WR in Deebo and AJ Brown. Harry may have come highly recommended and may have carried an alleged skill set that was not widely available on the Patriots roster, but just pick guys who match roles that traditionally fit this offense.

edit typos
 

tims4wins

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I forgot about Eugene Wilson. And Tavon and Jordan Richard’s were both better picks than they get credit for. But even with those three and Chung (who they cut before he came
Back and played better) it’s ugly (Dawson Ras-I Wheatley and JJW were really really bad picks)
I forgot about Darius Butler too. He didn't pan out in NE but had a good career.
 

dynomite

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Was at practice today!! (Took full advantage of a 2 hour gap with no meetings). I’ve always found Training Camp to be the best kept “secret” of the NFL. Free parking, free attendance, great atmosphere, up close to the players, nice weather, etc.

I’m one of the last people I would trust on here to scout but I agree with all the observations from the reporters. A few notes:

- I spent my time watching the offense, so can't say much about the defense. Also there was no real tackling today so take everything with a pretty big grain of salt.

- Patricia and Judge spent all of practice that I saw with the offense, looked to my amateur eyes like Patricia was holding the play sheet and calling plays when Mac was in and Judge was having small group convos and watching individual players. Belichick was standing with Patricia for a while when he looked to be calling plays.

- Was standing relatively near the big fight and watched it happen. Looked like Wilkerson got hit on the Panthers sideline, someone over there started jawing at him, and he turned around and said something back, and suddenly the fight broke out. Bourne and a lot of Pats were in the mix right away, and eventually the other side of the field (Pats D and Panthers O) jogged over to keep the peace.

- Mac seemed to make quick decisions and just seemed in control, if that makes sense? Hit a couple slants and made them look easy. Also threw a few nice medium range outs through traffic. He never looked confused or frustrated in the huddle, anytime he came over to the sideline there were handshakes and fist bumps. I noticed a few times when Hoyer was in Mac wandered over by himself and watched the play from 20-30 yards behind Hoyer. Hardly scientific but I liked what I saw.

- DeVante Parker made a few lovely catches, Mac clearly looked for him downfield. He just... looks like an NFL WR? Like on a deep 50/50 ball he just adjusted, got leverage, went up and "high pointed" the ball beautifully. He also had great form on his post-catch "spin the ball on the ground" celebration.

- None of the RBs did much of note while I was watching, but a number of times Mac and Hoyer both seemed to have designed throws to RBs in the flat. Maybe a bigger part of the offense this year will be trying to get the ball to the RBs out wide? (I know the Pats like throwing balls to RBs generally, so maybe not a ton to see here)

- Trent Brown is just so big, and no one on the Panthers ever seemed to really challenge him.
 

Shelterdog

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Every team makes draft mistakes, absolutely. But Harry followed by JJW (who sources had as a possible option in the 1st for N.E.) is as close to unforgivable a one-two gut punch as any I can think of. Horrific, esp given the CLEAR system fits at WR in Deebo and AJ Brown. Harry may have come highly recommended and may have carried an alleged skill set that was not widely available on the Patriots roster, but just pick guys who match roles that traditionally fit this offense.

edit typos
You've got to get more creative if you think Harry and JJW was the worst! I submit that Steve Entman and Quentin Coryatt was a worse one two gut punch. Or how about Akili Smith and 33rd pick in the draft Charles Fischer, who played one game? Sticking with the Bengals Oddel Thurman and David Pollack were 17th and 48th and both lasted one year. (Pollack lost weight and is a good college football announcer so that's nice). Browns have a lot--Trent Richardson and Bradon Weeden and 3 and 22? Tim Couch and anyone (even if second round pick Kevin Johnson had 4500 career receiving yards, the Browns also used a second on Rahim Abdullah who played in limited action over two years).

Thinking of our NEP Maroney and Chad Jackson give Harry/JJW a run for their money. Hart Lee Dykes and Eric Coleman? Reggie Dupard and Mike Ruth? Ken Sims and Lester Williams at 1 and 27 even if both played in the league (poorly) for years?
 

DJnVa

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Can draft bust stuff be moved to a separate thread?

Then we can bump said thread every year and discuss the same players?
 

RedOctober3829

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Reading the various reports of what went on today, you have to be extremely happy where the defense is at this far. It sounds like the Pats DL dominated Carolina and Jalen Mills had a terrific day and looks like a legit #1 CB. Offensively, the communication up front seemingly has improved with the passing game having success today. Now in 39 11-on-11 snaps, they passed it 34 times so we didn't get a good look at the running game. Tyquan Thornton continues to impress with his route running abilities. My expectations for him have been exceeded thus far, but I want to see more. The WR room is seemingly a deep group with 6-7 legit NFL guys. The key to me is Nelson Agholor. If he continues his strong camp into the season, this group could be pretty good. We know what we with (a healthy) DeVante Parker, Jakobi Meyers, and Kendrick Bourne. If Agholor can channel his days in Vegas and be productive both in-slot and down the field, that will go a long ways.
 

GB5

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I don’t know how to post tweets, but could someone post the recent tweet from Simon Charles if it is believed to be true. I would be stunned if it is, and if it is then it is way out of character for what we believe for the player and the way the Pats conduct themselves.
 

dynomite

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I don’t know how to post tweets, but could someone post the recent tweet from Simon Charles if it is believed to be true. I would be stunned if it is, and if it is then it is way out of character for what we believe for the player and the way the Pats conduct themselves.
It's a fake parody account. No one writes for the Globe I can find with that name and his bio reads "Double PHD in Journalism & Female Anatomy"
 

Jungleland

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Definitely a bummer, but it was looking like he was a fringe roster guy. Good for Wade/Bryant, at least.
 

Shelterdog

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It's a fake parody account. No one writes for the Globe I can find with that name and his bio reads "Double PHD in Journalism & Female Anatomy"
Yes but also, I wouldn't be particularly shocked if Pats players said we had said Mac Jones said.
 

Shelterdog

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I guess there could be an injury settlement with either but I wonder if they keep jjw around in the hope that he offsets a (low level) free agent signing from a comp pick perspective
 

Over Guapo Grande

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It only makes sense that they would be done for the year— otherwise you could have a taxi-squad of people with “Foxboro Fever”

In seriousness, that is why you see some last cut day wink-wink agreements . “We will cut you, but don’t pack your bags. “
 

lexrageorge

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Yep, Butler and Williams would not be eligible to return from IR as they would not be on the original 53 when the season officially starts. If Butler recovers, he will likely be waived as part of an injury settlement during the season, which will allow to try for a roster spot for any team other than New England. Same would technically apply to Williams, although I think it's more likely he remains with the team.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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You've got to get more creative if you think Harry and JJW was the worst! I submit that Steve Entman and Quentin Coryatt was a worse one two gut punch. Or how about Akili Smith and 33rd pick in the draft Charles Fischer, who played one game? Sticking with the Bengals Oddel Thurman and David Pollack were 17th and 48th and both lasted one year. (Pollack lost weight and is a good college football announcer so that's nice). Browns have a lot--Trent Richardson and Bradon Weeden and 3 and 22? Tim Couch and anyone (even if second round pick Kevin Johnson had 4500 career receiving yards, the Browns also used a second on Rahim Abdullah who played in limited action over two years).

Thinking of our NEP Maroney and Chad Jackson give Harry/JJW a run for their money. Hart Lee Dykes and Eric Coleman? Reggie Dupard and Mike Ruth? Ken Sims and Lester Williams at 1 and 27 even if both played in the league (poorly) for years?
I'm just happy you didn't mention Eugene Chung.

P. S. Although he had a decent career after NE.
 

DJnVa

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Dec 16, 2010
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More fights already today, Wilkerson carted off.

Maybe this wasn't a good idea.