Wasn't it a hallmark of the Scar era that many of his lines improved and gelled as the season progressed? I'm not suggesting that'll happen with these guys by any means, but it could.
Patriots Training Camp 2024
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There's theoretically the perfect time to start Drake Maye, which may never happen. Then there's the right time; Week 1 doesn't seem like it. Given this team is not making the playoffs, there's no real downside to waiting a few weeks so he can refine his game under center.
If the only "fix" that is done to the OL during the offseason is to draft an LT and hope for the best, then Wolf should be fired into the sun. Bottom line is that the team is going to have to invest a ton of capital (draft, free agency) in the OL once this season is over.
It *could*. But there just isn't much talent there, and I think the odds are just as good that one of the starters gets hurt by then and now you're playing with at least one backup, which would more than likely more than "make up for" any small improvements the line would have made over that time.
Also...defensive lines also improve over that time too, right?
The idea that two fumbles from the backup center means that Maye doesn’t know how to do this and should be benched until he does is silly.
I’m not sure such a thing exists. It might mean he can play better than other quarterbacks can. But no one is immune from getting sacked or hurt simply because they’re athletic and can move around in the pocket and create plays.
That said, I agree with this. Were there any of these point of emphasis/“Once again …” illegal formation calls in the second half when Nepo Guns was on the bench?
Hopefully they can cut down on the illegal formation and other penalties in that time. Most OL coaches are fungible (Scar wasn't), so if the penalties are a problem all season, fire Peters and start again next year.
The O line is not just about developing individual skills but also working together as a cohesive unit, so yes I would expect that after an additional 5 weeks of practice and real games we should expect to see some improvement. If nothing else just getting the LT to get his ass out of the backfield and lined up on the LOS on every play. You can assume there will be injuries but you can't predict when or to whom so you put the 5 best guys out there and make adjustments as needed.
Uh yeah, and DL will get injured as well. I don't know enough about these guys and they sure looked like a dumpster fire last night, but there's time to improve and there's also time for players to emerge, which we've already seen with Robinson iirc (another hallmark of the Scar era was total unknowns without "much talent" emerging as key cogs).
Sow was apparently in a walking boot last night, so that's not promising. Oof.
I think the "can't play him behind this O-line" stuff is overrated. The line isn't good, it's bad.... it also didn't allow a sack of Maye and I think he only was hit once or twice? For all their penalties, mistakes, etc.... it's not like he was taking helmets to the spine from the blind side (Okorafor was surprisingly good at all the things that happen after the snap). The line might kill the offense's ability to make long drives, but combined with Maye's athleticism, I don't think him taking a ton of big hits is a huge concern.
What? Such a thing not only exists, but it's statistically proven. Quarterbacks have a ton of control over the hits and sacks they take, be it through athleticism, pocket movement or getting the ball out quickly. OL controls pressures, what said pressures amount to is on the QB.
I’m not saying QBs can’t avoid hits or make plays even with consistently poor protection. Of course they can. I’m saying a suspect o-line will destroy any offense no matter how amazing all the skill players are.
I thought that was kind of obvious.
I'll be a lot more worried when the OL has to block actual NFL starters which they are yet to do in the pre-season. Only time they had to block NFL quality starters was the PHI joint practices when the OL was embarrassed by all accounts.
So here’s a moderately terrifying thought:
If Brissett ends up being out for week 1, could the week 1 starter be … Bailey Zappe?
I get that “the pressure to play Maye” will be huge – and the collective heads of fans might go full Scanners. But if they are truly committed to him sitting to start the year and are looking for cromulent play out of their starter, doesn’t that almost guarantee Zappe gets the nod?
(To be clear, I thought that was one of the reasons they started Zappe and had him play so much in the first preseason game … he doesn’t give you much but he does know the playbook and a lot of the personnel)
Thoughts?
If Brissett ends up being out for week 1, could the week 1 starter be … Bailey Zappe?
I get that “the pressure to play Maye” will be huge – and the collective heads of fans might go full Scanners. But if they are truly committed to him sitting to start the year and are looking for cromulent play out of their starter, doesn’t that almost guarantee Zappe gets the nod?
(To be clear, I thought that was one of the reasons they started Zappe and had him play so much in the first preseason game … he doesn’t give you much but he does know the playbook and a lot of the personnel)
Thoughts?
It's not really obvious because a suspect OL wil not destroy any offense. You can put Joe Burrow behind a horrible OL and he'll get you to the playoffs, while a guy like Jared Goff will be non-functional. Not all QBs are affected by OL issues the same way.
Maybe Mayo should stop talking.
I think there's ‘not good oline’ play and there’s ‘allowing free runners’. It didn’t happen often, but the shot that put Brissett out would imho have gotten Maye as well, and that D lineman was doing everything he could to crush the shoulders of the QB as he landed.
Not good enough yet. I don’t need next year’s LT before starting Maye, but I damn sure need to see someone on the left side show up for a couple weeks running first.
Given that we have new coaches and a new group, we are looking at some players in multiple positions, we will probably have a chance to claim an OL or two on waivers, etc., I think there is a decent chance for improvement or just some retooling of the offense to minimize weaknesses. At the very least you have a better idea of what the players you have can do and what you should try to avoid asking them to do.
Maybe it is good enough now, in a sense, or will be in a few weeks once they have had some time working together as a unit
It is more than that, though. There were other problems, and to the extent the offense depends on the timing of Maye's drop backs from under center (whether to hand off or throw), it's not there yet. And he's never been an under center QB, the vast majority of his previous experience is from the shotgun. Until he gets it, he cannot run the full offense.
He's shown himself to be a fast learner and there are things he can learn that would help him when he does get the job.
This is just me, but I would not even consider Zappe for a roster spot unless Brissett needs IR. I'd take him back for the practice squad, but before I even did that I'd try to find a waiver wire QB with more experience in the AVP system.
This. Judging by their public remarks, Mayo and AVP seem to not even be close to on the same page.
1 free runner a game is.... good? Like, that happens literally every game in the NFL to every team.
When they changed the off-season / practice season rules, it was widely observed that whole that had an effect on preparedness / rust / ability for everyone, OLs were disproportionately or relatively behind as compared to DLs. This was generally seen as confirming the belief that it takes OLs longer to gel or otherwise get their collective acts together which has always made intuitive sense. As such, it is reasonable to believe that even if they never become good, the gap between the Patriots’ OL and opposing DLs should close over the first few weeks.
Whether that’s enough to make a difference for the decision making on Maye is the next question.
Whether that’s enough to make a difference for the decision making on Maye is the next question.
Defensive lines improve over time too, I'm sure, but pass rush is much more of an individual act than pass rush protection. OL guys working together to know how to cover each other, when they have to help, how much they have to help...there's a familiarity factor that matters. Synergy. Nevermind that a line that can't get push or create holes run blocking leads to more 3rd and 12, which makes things that much harder for pass blocking.
The results matter. When they were able to protect Maye for 2+ seconds, it was half because they were lining up in an x-wing formation in the backfield before the snap. And when they weren't, they were holding or false-starting enough that he was in 3rd and 12 most of the night. Good on him (and Milton) for scrambling for time and yards and keeping drives alive that the OL actively tried to kill with penalties.
I actually agree with your overall point more after last night than I did before last night. Maye seems like he might be able to make chicken salad out of the chicken excrement that the OL is providing for him. Maybe it's worth getting him in there sooner rather than later. But I hope that people are seeing what's happening with pass pro and adjust their expectations accordingly. If he's forced all season to create on the run and with runs of his own, we're going to be looking at a lot of INTs and him probably getting dinged up pretty badly. Maybe it's worth it anyway, I don't know. But I'm a lot more bearish on him "taking a ton of big hits". Seems almost inevitable to me that he's going to get hurt if he starts 15+ games.
IDK. It's definitely a big concern for me. His athleticism will help but he'll also be processing in NFL games that count for the first time. He hit his hand on a hand/helmet last night, dove for a first down...He'll have to learn the skill of staying healthy in the NFL pretty quick. I'd definitely give it a few weeks if they can. He'll still have a chance to play 12+ games this year, which is plenty for his development.
Another way to protect him and the line is to run the football effectively. Didn't see much of that this preseason. But that would make a big difference.
Sure, technically accurate but I’m not sure it captures the gravity of this situation.
Our guys are seemingly lost at the snap and it’s part of a much larger context of stepping on each other physically or metaphorically with flags or alignment or not picking up stunts, etc. Just not good enough (yet).
But oddly, I give them a little pass because they followed the advice of all the best line coaches, including Scar, which is pick five and stay with them. So many injuries mixed in with such marginal talent has created this poop show. Again.
The overall OL execution was bad, but I actually thought guys were winning their 1 on 1 battles pretty well. Penalties were a killer and the sack featured some real keystone cops comedy. Run blocking seemed more a concern than pass protection as they weren't creating much space for the backs.
One other observation is that receivers were getting more separation than we've seen in a while.
One other observation is that receivers were getting more separation than we've seen in a while.
This might be a more appropriate question for the PS3 game thread, but since it was brought up a bit earlier upthread: why are the illegal formation plays not blown dead immediately once the ball is snapped? Is it due to the possibility that the D could get a sack or something and thus decline the penalty?
They just aren't. False starts throw the timing off enough that guys could get hurt/blindsided if only half of the team is moving and half isn't. Good reason to blow the whistle. But formation/motion penalties don't carry an inherent risk, only an inherent advantage to the offense, so preserving the option for the defense to make something happen even better than a 5-yard penalty is preferred. If they sack the QB anyway, they get yards plus a loss of down. Or fumbles, INTs, etc.
I don’t think Brissett has a chance behind this line, if he starts, dude may retire by mid season because of the beating he’s looking at.
Maye will mess up, throw picks, typical rookie mistakes. That said, he actually gives them a chance to make some plays, and also to let the defense get a breather. I wouldn’t be even a little bit surprised if the players feel the same way.
Maye will mess up, throw picks, typical rookie mistakes. That said, he actually gives them a chance to make some plays, and also to let the defense get a breather. I wouldn’t be even a little bit surprised if the players feel the same way.
Especially when the coach says he’s winning the battle at his press conference.
You couldn't have used a worse comparison to make your point. Joe Burrow tore his ACL running for his life behind a terrible O-line.
I will say Burrow is also a bad comp because he's TERRIBLE at limiting sacks, he's basically the sole outlier to the idea that guys who have really bad pressure to sack rates in college fail in the NFL (Daniels is going to try and become the 2nd this year).
Except that isn’t true. Burrow tore his ACL after releasing a throw from a relatively clean pocket and a defender Bernard Pollarded him.
Mayo could have punted at the interview and said "we will look at the film and do whats in the best interest of the team" but anybody that has watched the film knows that Maye is just better at this point. You lose credibility to say its a competition and then not to go with that QB.
Mayo has been very upfront about his answers and part of his coaching style is different than BB. It will be an adjustment for people in the media and here but that's just part of Mayo's appeal to players.
Mayo has been very upfront about his answers and part of his coaching style is different than BB. It will be an adjustment for people in the media and here but that's just part of Mayo's appeal to players.
Granted, it's preseason, but 27 rushes for 139 yards is a 5.1 YPC average. I thought this was juked by the QB scrambles by Maye and Milton, but Hasty and Gibson got good yardage on their 7 first-half runs too, averaging over 5 YPC each. I even caught glimpses of #46 Pettway blocking downfield on scrambles and short passes, and it made my FB-loving heart grow 3 sizes! Honestly, the run game was pretty solid, though I worry Sow's work had a lot to do with it. Once he left injured, Michael Jordan came in and looked like Michael Jordan...the GM. The Pats are surely going to be scrambling for OL help once again after their final preseason game.
Maye's work was all come-from-behind, and he never seemed to let him bother him. I think it's clear that Maye is the better option to win games, especially with Brissett taking that shoulder hit. Whether they want to risk Maye's health too though, I guess we'll see.
He could have done what AVP did and point out that the preseason games are not all (or most) of a competition, and that understanding/reading the complex defensive cues, and knowing what to check to is a huge part of NFL QB, and you don't get that in preseason.
Yeah, aside from a couple of mental errors last night, Sow has had a good camp. Every time I hear "walking boot" I picture the dreaded "high ankle sprain", which means we're getting ready for trick-or-treating by the time we see him in a game again.
https://weeklyspiral.com/2021/03/04/film-breakdown-on-joe-burrows-rookie-year-with-the-bengals/
He took 32 sacks and 42 hits in 10 games before getting injured. His offensive line was horrible and as the article states, he was running for his life from the moment the ball was snapped. Nothing I said was incorrect, and I wouldn't use Joe Burrows as an example of a guy who didn't get injured behind a traffic cone offensive line.
good point but denver OL has been bad since 2014 last season they were around 20th or so
He wasn’t running for his life. Watch the video. He stepped in on a throw and got hit low. It wasn’t a correct characterization of the play that got him hurt.
I am not contesting the larger point about the comparison.
The NFL is a copy cat league and no one sits QBs drafted in the first 10 picks.
There's always a risk of injury in football. It's inherent in the game. You play Tom Brady when you have him. You don't sit him because it's raining, your center has the shits, or Ray Lewis is on the other side of the ball. You just don't.
Even if you are a bad team, you play the guys who give you the best chance to win that week. Jobs are on the line. If the Patriots have a 1 win season you could very well see Mayo and crew getting fired.
These are also pro athletes. They are wired to play. The only way for Maye and the Patriots offense to improve is to get reps. And if Maye isn't the guy it is better to know that now than 3 years from now.
You can't convince me that guys who have flamed out like Wilson, Darnold, Fields, and Jones would have benefitted from a year on the bench. They all sucked for somewhat different reasons and got exposed for it in the league. It happens.
Drake Maye is going to start Game 1 and every game this season and next. He may be great. He may suck. But his window is now.
And if you're Kraft, you don't go into this season expecting to make the playoffs. What you hope for is they play some competitive games and win a little. But more than that, you hope the fanbase gets excited about the future because of what they see on the field and not who is on the bench, who they can sign in free agency, or who they can draft.
There's always a risk of injury in football. It's inherent in the game. You play Tom Brady when you have him. You don't sit him because it's raining, your center has the shits, or Ray Lewis is on the other side of the ball. You just don't.
Even if you are a bad team, you play the guys who give you the best chance to win that week. Jobs are on the line. If the Patriots have a 1 win season you could very well see Mayo and crew getting fired.
These are also pro athletes. They are wired to play. The only way for Maye and the Patriots offense to improve is to get reps. And if Maye isn't the guy it is better to know that now than 3 years from now.
You can't convince me that guys who have flamed out like Wilson, Darnold, Fields, and Jones would have benefitted from a year on the bench. They all sucked for somewhat different reasons and got exposed for it in the league. It happens.
Drake Maye is going to start Game 1 and every game this season and next. He may be great. He may suck. But his window is now.
And if you're Kraft, you don't go into this season expecting to make the playoffs. What you hope for is they play some competitive games and win a little. But more than that, you hope the fanbase gets excited about the future because of what they see on the field and not who is on the bench, who they can sign in free agency, or who they can draft.
Or maybe that analysis is baked into Mayo's comment, in that Maye is showing that stuff well enough in practice to give him (Mayo) enough confidence that it could cayry over.
I thought Collinsworth made a good point on the broadcast last night - that with the way NFL practice time works, there just aren't many practice snaps available for QB2. So the idea that Maye is better off learning on the bench may not be entirely correct. He might be, if he's behind on academic stuff like learning the playbook (a possibility), or if he needs to work on his physical traits before he's ready (that certainly doesn't seem to be the case), or if the vantage point of being on the sideline during real NFL games will help him grasp the flow of the game better (I'm skeptical).
But it's true that developmental time for backups is limited, and he might not get any better sitting and watching. There may be other reasons to sit him, of course.
But it's true that developmental time for backups is limited, and he might not get any better sitting and watching. There may be other reasons to sit him, of course.
While official practice time and reps are indeed limited, there's nothing to prevent a young QB like Maye from working with his coaches in individual drills outside the normal practice time. Sometimes those drills do involve other players as well. And while they, unlike the official practices, are optional, there certainly will be opportunities for Maye to get some additional non-game experience. And it's also conceivable that film sessions of actual regular season games (which are very different from August games and joint practices) may be of benefit to Maye even if he isn't playing.
There are certainly QB's that were not ready to play in their rookie seasons that did well later in subsequent seasons, so I don't think the "learning on the bench" concept is misplaced. Of course, what we don't know is how much development those QB's got in their bench warming season versus the subsequent offseason work and their second training camp. Bill himself has said multiple times that a player's second training camp tends to be a good measuring stick on how a player will progress long term.
There was just no reason to add in the, "Drake has outplayed Jacoby" comment. It does nothing to better the situation. Jacoby is a veteran and won't be motivated by that shot at him. If anything, it adds a layer of unnecessary drama.
And this isn't a "different coaching style than BB" thing. The large majority of NFL head coaches would have left it at, "As I said earlier, whoever I think gives us the best chance to win is going to start." Very few coaches unnecessarily feed the flames like this, and even fewer do it successfully as a motivation tactic (for either Jacoby or Drake, in this case).
Phrasing.
What is the situation? Everybody knows Maye is a better option than Jacoby. Whether he starts in Week 1, Week 5 or Week 10 (doubtful), he's coming in this season and we'll see what he can do. As bad as Mac was last year, BB playing a stupid cryptic game of musical chairs, literally in game, did absolutely nothing for the team. We're not protecting some national fucking secret here.
Drake Maye is 21 and a rookie QB who apparently has played well enough for the Patriots to consider starting him on Game 1. In 1993, Drew Bledsoe started Game 1 as a 21-year-old rookie QB. While he threw 2 TD's, he also completed less the half his passes, got intercepted once, and was sacked 3 times. Of course, Bledsoe had the advantage of having Bruce Armstrong at LT and Ben Coates as his TE. Maye may fare a bit worse, but I don't think he'll do that much worse, so I'm fine with him as the Game 1 starter.
At this point I don't really see the point of keeping Brissett on the team. He hasn't shown much more than what Zappe or Milton can give you. I'd be fine going into the season with Maye/Zappe/Milton. Not sure the cap impacts if releasing Brissett, but he's redundant and not needed at this point. It was worth it to have him in camp and see if he could be your guy this year, but he hasn't done that. Let Maye play.
I would hope they aren't judging a 8 year veteran QB with a long history of being somewhere between the 24th and 35th QB in the league based on like 3 preseason drives.
Brissett is a much better player than Zappe, he's proven that repeatedly, Milton? seriously?
The question of whether Brissett is better than Maye right now is a legit question, the other 2 guys are a practice squad guy and the rawest of raw late round rookies.