If Maye is starting what's the point of having Brissett on the roster? There is literally no upside
Patriots Training Camp 2024
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He’s a competent professional with experience who can positively influence the QB of the future and fill in for him should he get injured better than the alternatives.
I think that you might be saying that if Maye fails, for draft reasons it's better to suck with Milton/Zappe than it is to be a little better with Brissett. I can see that, but also what about the case in which Maye does really well and has this team in the playoff hunt but needs to miss a game or two late in the season -- in that case, you'd want another competent QB on the roster.
They would save maybe $1.3M on the cap by cutting him. The upside is that the team would have a more competent backup than Zappe or Milton.
He's a highly competent professional quarterback who can step in and play if needed without destroying the ability to develop your young players, he's also an established and respected vet who is going to provide a lot of value in all the things that a young QB in terms of guidance and teaching how to be an NFL QB. A lot of QBs have talked about the value of vets in the room (and we saw a terrible room last year).
Also.. you could probably trade him mid-season if by some miracle Milton took 100 steps forward (Josh Dobbs and Joe Flacco are examples of worse QBs traded for some value mid-season recently).
The flip side is the easy answer.... Bailey Zappe actually has no upside... he's both not a guy who has any ceiling AND he's much worse. Milton may have upside, but he's not anywhere near ready to play against real NFL players.
I don't buy into the argument that he's going to materially help develop Maye anymore than AVP will alone. I also don't think Brissett is any good and if you're down to your backup because Maye is hurt, things are pretty bleak anyway. I'd rather Zappe or Milton getting reps than watching Brissett lose games.
We said the same things about Hoyer and when he came into the game, he was awful and replaced by Zappe.
There is a significant body of evidence that Zappe does not belong in the NFL and Brissett does. Jacoby is also familiar with the offensive coaching staff and the system they want to run.
I fully admit this is nitpicking and not worth a lengthy discussion, he'll be off the roster at the end of the season anyway, I just don't see the point of having him on the roster at this point. It's not a huge deal either way
https://www.patriots.com/news/patriots-release-14-players
14 cuts. No real surprises.
Pettway got cut which likely means Bell makes the roster, only guy who was really in a position battle I see.
14 cuts. No real surprises.
Pettway got cut which likely means Bell makes the roster, only guy who was really in a position battle I see.
I think you may be overstating the downside of keeping him on the roster; the difference in cap hit is a rounding error, as most of Brissett's contract was signing bonus that is already accounted for and is therefore a sunk cost anyway.
That’s not really true. He is like another coach to Maye and he provides semi competent play should something happen to Maye if Maye starts. Those may be small things but they’re upsides for sure.
I would extend that by adding "He is like another coach to Maye in a way that only another current QB can be."
Is there any indication that he's "coaching" Maye or trying to win himself a job? I don't buy it and I haven't seen anything that reports he is either actively coaching Maye or was brought on to take that role.
Happy to be proven wrong, but that seems like wishful thinking.
Happy to be proven wrong, but that seems like wishful thinking.
Are we sure Azizi Hearn isn't related to or friends with Trace McSorley?
I mean we watched Hearn lose a spot in real time against backups. That was something.
If Maye goes down in the middle of a game you need someone who can at least pretend to know how to play the QB position. They need to find another guy off the scrap heap and Zappe needs to be sent into orbit. Given the way the OL looks if they don't prepare for everyone to be out at some point then this could get ugly. 17 games is a war of attrition.
Zappe has started and won games in the NFL. He isn’t good (actually quite bad) but he isn’t worse (and is probably better) than the average “scrap heap” guy
The Pats will be lucky to win 5 games this year. Having a 3rd or 4th (on practice squad) QB of Zappe’s caliber is fine. He’s probably better than a couple #2’s and many #3’s league wide. We’re just more familiar with his shortcomings. Grass is greener and whatnot.
Backup QB’s league wide are mostly terrible other than guys like Brissett (very low end starters) or Pickett (young formerly hyped guys who are on the verge of flaming out)
The Pats need a lot of things, a better alternative to Zappe as QB 3 or 4 is near the bottom of that list.
The situation is a QB controversy. Making one of them look bad is unnecessary.
And, no, not everyone knows Maye is a better option. He's definitely the higher upside player. But we have no idea how he'll respond to real NFL defenses. Or God forbid he has to take a handful of snaps from under center.
Brissett is by all accounts a great guy and teammate, has performed adequately at the NFL level before (certainly more so than Zappe) and has knowledge of the system, it'd make no sense to move on from him. It's not like he's going to cause issues if he's benched, he signed a one year deal on low money with a team that was set to take a QB top 3, he's fully aware of his status.
I think one of the problems with the messaging from Mayo is the actions aren't totally backing up his words. He says it's a competition but then Maye rarely gets practice reps with the 1's which should seem to indicate it's not actually a competition. Mayo says they have a plan but also hasn't articulated the plan. Which is fine, I don't need state secrets, but I think if Brissett is the guy to start week 1, Mayo should've said so.
When you draft a QB at 3rd overall and don't declare that player the starter early on it's naturally going to be the biggest storyline and the first question every press conference is going to be when the 3rd overall pick takes over. I think Mayo just muddiedthe waters here at the end of camp. The biggest problem with telling the world that Maye has outplayed Brissett is the lockeroom. Mayo and co. have more job security than the players do. The players don't give a shit about developing Maye and the future. It's probably not a great look for the other 51 players if the best QB is on the bench and that potentially costs them wins/stats.
When you draft a QB at 3rd overall and don't declare that player the starter early on it's naturally going to be the biggest storyline and the first question every press conference is going to be when the 3rd overall pick takes over. I think Mayo just muddiedthe waters here at the end of camp. The biggest problem with telling the world that Maye has outplayed Brissett is the lockeroom. Mayo and co. have more job security than the players do. The players don't give a shit about developing Maye and the future. It's probably not a great look for the other 51 players if the best QB is on the bench and that potentially costs them wins/stats.
Zolak has constantly said this on the radio that you cannot fool the other 51 players in the locker room especially if Maye is the better QB. Maye is probably the better QB to put behind this OL as he can at least move.
Yes. What remains to be seen is whether this is just Mayo learning the hard way abou the challenge of engaging with the media, where every syllable he utters will be parsed carefully, or whether it is indicative of some sort of confusion about the actual job of coaching. Too soon to say, for now.
Yeah moving on from Brissett is a weird take imo. No significant financial benefits to cutting him. Having another QB brain in the room is good when your other three QBs have a total of 8 NFL starts between them.
Seems like code for "I want them to throw the parachute out of the plane so that they have no choice but to start Drake Maye 17 times."
Same here, i dont think this coaching staff is very good, might even be downright terrible with the misconstruction of this team.
Wolf really didnt do Mayo any favors with how little work he did this off season, he has basically handed Mayo a turd sandwich.
The team needed 3 major positions in the offseason--QB, WR, OL. They drafted a QB #3, drafted 2 WRs, put big offers out for some #1 WRs, and drafted a few OLs (who are getting decent reviews in camp). It seems like people think Wolf was going to be able to fill all the holes this offseason. That's unrealistic.
What should he have done different? Spell it out. Don't give me some nebulous "FIX THE OL!". How?
Well, they kind of set the expectations high with all the talk of epic amounts of cap space and lighting money on fire or whatever. To not really add any external players of significance from free agency is kind of disappointing and underwhelming, I’d suspect.
Agree though that the success of the team will come down to the draft. Hopefully this years produces more help than the last several.
Agree though that the success of the team will come down to the draft. Hopefully this years produces more help than the last several.
Drafting or free agent signing an actual left tackle would of been a great start. It has been a hole for sometime now with this team, sure blame Bill too but it won't change the fact that it was a glaring wide open wound this off season and it was addressed with a used bandaid!
Disappointing, sure. But players chose to sign elsewhere with established QBs and those teams with a higher chance of success this year. The money was laid out to spend. Top players did not take it. Putting the blame on Wolf for players signing elsewhere is silly at best.
I think Coach Bill provided a little bit of a "tell" on Mayo's thinking during his (BB) appearance on the McAfee Show yesterday. Paraphrasing, he (BB) indicated that no one should take anything away from preseason because defenses aren't doing anything exotic or disguising, and teams aren't game planning for opposing offenses. All teams are just evaluating basic player skills.
So with regard to Brissett vs. Maye, it's true that Maye has outperformed Brissett in the preseason games. It is also true that Maye still hasn't faced anyone or anything approaching the scale of what he would see if he started in Cincinnati, i.e. minimal game time vs. defensive starters and virtually no experience vs. a game planned defensive scheme.
This is why I think Brissett will start for the first few games... give Maye more time to see how game plans are put together, executed, and what "issues" arise during games that need to be addressed. Throwing him to the wolves on Day 1 just because he can run around a little better than Brissett behind a shaky line isn't going to materially change the outcome of the season.
So with regard to Brissett vs. Maye, it's true that Maye has outperformed Brissett in the preseason games. It is also true that Maye still hasn't faced anyone or anything approaching the scale of what he would see if he started in Cincinnati, i.e. minimal game time vs. defensive starters and virtually no experience vs. a game planned defensive scheme.
This is why I think Brissett will start for the first few games... give Maye more time to see how game plans are put together, executed, and what "issues" arise during games that need to be addressed. Throwing him to the wolves on Day 1 just because he can run around a little better than Brissett behind a shaky line isn't going to materially change the outcome of the season.
Which one, and where? The most talented were long off the board before the second round. Take one in the second, no Polk. There's some info to suggest they tried to trade up for one after that, but couldn't find a deal.
GMing is hard.
I would have thrown real money at Tyron Smith, even if I think that would have been a very unlikely signing, but Jonah Williams was a good pass protector at LT and was available. Not elite by any means, but would have been a good starter to solidify the position for nothing but cash. He got 2/30 with 21.5 guaranteed from Arizona, I would have matched or slightly exceeded that without a second thought if the alternative was to bring in Okorafor to make the transition to the left side.
I would have not taken Polk (who I like but think his upside is far too limited for early 2nd round) and moved up to get a tackle if a trade were available or taken one of the best available (or moved down a couple spots if needed)
I don’t think the returns on Polk/Wallace are going to make up for not taking a shot on a different tackle.
Maybe, but at some point it's a fine line--Polk may be slightly overdrafted, but the cost of moving up to get a OL might have been prohibitive. We just don't know. So, to say this was all a "turd sandwich" seems rather harsh.
I don’t think mid round picks, which have success rates (of even becoming serviceable starters) under 40% is really “addressing” issues.
If one of Wallace, Baker or Robinson becomes a useful starter, they’re probably about par for the course.
Wolf did almost nothing all off-season to add quality veteran players to the roster. He added a couple guys who offset losses (Takitaki for Wilson, Hooper for P.Brown, Gibson for Elliott etc). The OL looks worse thanks to Trent Brown not being replaced. The D has no depth and sure Barmore’s situation couldn’t be predicted but Judon’s could have been. The #5-9 DB’s are all unproven young waiver wire or late round pick quality players.
It’s great they took Maye. I’d argue that the roster decisions everywhere else have failed to improve the team’s overall talent level much, if at all.
You can't assume availability of trades. So... who would you have taken instead of Polk?
Neither do I. I think they address QB and WR and took shots at OL. But there's only so many early round picks. You can't fix everything at once.
If I had to stick and pick, I’m taking either Suamataia or Paul. Although I think Frazier would have been tempting.
Rosengarten or Fisher probably would have been fine too.
I don’t see any of those tackles as more of a reach than Polk at 37. Given the depth of the WR class this year and the massive hole at tackle, I think T should have been the priority if they weren’t going for a WR with home run upside.
Obviously early days still but neither Polk nor Wallace seem to be on track to prove the doubters wrong that they were taken too highly. Wallace can’t even get snaps over Lowe or Okorafor which is disappointing given how bad those guys are.
Suamataia went 63rd--37th seems like a reach. Fisher 59th. Paul 55th. Pats drafted 68th. Seems that was a decent gamble that one would fall. It didn't work and they got Wallace.
I get you had different opinions but you're still arguing around the edges here. Had the Pats picked one of those guys at 37 then at 68 if they want a WR, they're overdrafting Burton. There's always tradeoffs. I just don't see any way any of the choices they went with qualifies as Wolf having some shitty offseason.
yeah, I'm fine with wanting to take a tackle there and settling at WR for someone like... Burton? But given those guys went in the 60s, you're really not arguing about investment given you took a guy in the 60s, you're arguing that you don't think they did a good job evaluating Wallace, because he's much closer in draft position to those guys than Polk.
Ideally, they could have traded Judon prior to the draft and been able to use the pick this year. Or course, teams interested in him probably would have not wanted to do that so who knows.
Ok. But GMs are generally judged on the results of what they do. That they tried to sign guys but couldn’t isn’t really a super compelling defense. Part of a GM’s job is selling players on their vision and the role they would play in it. Nobody being willing to take the money you are offering isn’t really a point in the GM’s favor, IMO (although it clearly goes way beyond Wolf).
Agree that it’s a long term fix- but there was a lot of noise about how the only problem was the QB, no?
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There are multiple reasons this scenario would not have yielded the 3rd they received from ATL which, by all accounts on this board and everywhere, was a fantastic trade.
In an ideal world, every player they wanted at QB, WR, OT was available and were the best at their respective positions. In the actual world, it's just not reality. Wolf tried to trade back into the 2R for an OT but couldn't make it work with potential trading partners. Other teams likely asked for too much in return. That's just the way it is. Expectations for a quick turnaround and getting all top FA and your draft wish list is just not realistic.
And expected Team results, a vet QB, and a non-rebuilding team. This team is rebuilding and not an ideal landing spot for those FA looking to win right now. Wolf offered the most money to at least two of the highest rated FA out there and they did not take it. Vision and role likely had no place for those FA with this org given the rebuild. Those FA picked teams in a much better position to win now. Blaming Wolf for this is silly.
The idea that the only problem with last years Patriots team was the QB doesn't sync up with how bad the roster was, and probably is still to an extent.
Mac was the main culprit, but every position group on offense besides RB needed an upgrade and it's incredibly difficult to achieve that in a single off season.