I would hope Mayo is not making decisions based on what other teams are doing with their newly drafted QBs.
Patriots Training Camp 2024
- Thread starter DJnVa
- Start date
Except those are three different players, situations, coaching staff and team-building philosophies. So...maybe. But maybe not.
edit typos because always
Not making a direct comparison to the situations, just saying that the Patriots may follow suit if Maye shows he’s ready (or Brissett is just awful). Basically, there has to be a good reason not to start him if he’s delivering in practice.
Brisset is not an average quarterback. 18-30 is not a SSS…his ceiling, as another poster just said, is slightly above not awful. He is what he is…a good guy to have around but not someone who should be taking meaningful snaps from anyone with a future.
100% agreed. Brissett has a leg up on your undrafted college QBs, and on many a clipboard carrier in the league, but he's a top 40 QB, not top 20. They're going to be a little more careful with Maye because Jacoby is around, and because they know there are lots of other glaring weaknesses on the offense. CHI and WAS both jettisoned their prior starters, who are now backups elsewhere.
The interaction between the OL and QB is not one dimensional either. Brissett makes the OL worse because he does not have the same athleticism as Maye to extend plays with his legs. At the same time, the need for that dimension in QB puts Maye at a higher risk of injury since he'll be frequently trying to escape broken protections. If you're trying win more games and Maye is not a disaster, he seems like the obvious choice. If you're trying to protect your most valuable asset, you keep him on the sidelines while you wait for the OL to improve. Based on what little we've seen, Maye seems to be far from a disaster, so it's really just about picking between injury risk to me.
Joe Burrow got his rookie season cut short by an ACL tear and he turned out more than fine. These guys aren't brittle and this isn't 1972, Maye's career won't be derailed by an injury (even if you concede this OL would significantly heighten the odds of an injury occurring, which I don't believe to be a given). It's all about his mental readiness, nothing more. If his grasp of the offense is at a level that allows him to be out there, he should be out there.
This is all true if the goal is to compete this year, but what if they view the year as a development year and no matter what they do they won't be contender. Maybe the team will be much better served in that case by having a top 5 pick and taking it slow. Why risk an injury if they aren't competing anyway? To sell tickets?
I said it before and I'll say it again, tanking (when done correctly) is a valid strategy that could lead to sustained success
It’s not really tanking when you’re going to be bad regardless of who is at QB. There are clear examples of guys who’ve redshirted and been fine but I’d rather he get live reps this year, if he’s demonstrated himself to at least be somewhat ready.
The top 5 pick will be ours no matter what so the real calculus is what is best for Maye’s longterm development.
At the same time, it’s entirely possible that playing behind a lousy OL and getting his brains beat in on a weekly basis would introduce some bad tendencies into his developmental process.
Ultimately I agree that if he’s ready then get him on the field. But I don’t fault the org if they’re cautious about doing that from week 1.
Yeah, I really need any shred of actual, non anecdotal evidence that not taking live reps for a full year would be good for his development.
I mean, I'm in favor of playing him, but what does non-anecdotal evidence of something like that mean? Some QBs play as rookies and turn out fine, some fail, some sit most or all of the year and turn out really well too.... but it's all completely impossible to empirically assess because each player and situation is unique. All you can do as a GM and coach is assess the player and situation and do what you think is best.
The only compelling reason, to start him or not, is his own development.
This is it. The team is bad regardless of who's at QB. Everyone knows Maye is the future so you do everything you can to get him on track. Sitting a few games won't hurt. Let the team, coaching staff etc. work out a few kinks early and then get him in there in October (or earlier if Brissett goes down).
While I'm not sure what sort of non-anecdotal evidence can support the point, it worked out OK for Favre, Rodgers, Mahomes and Brady. (or do you mean literally zero game snaps?)
As for starting in your first year, Brady is not a fan:
View: https://twitter.com/stephenasmith/status/1825679304883073138?s=46&t=4DK5sD-8gsSKFExcsnEJqg
View: https://twitter.com/stephenasmith/status/1825679304883073138?s=46&t=4DK5sD-8gsSKFExcsnEJqg
2022 it was decent! 2023 not so much. It wasn't as bad as people make it out to be though most games minus NC State and Clemson in particular. His pressure numbers were in the normal range for a college QB. He also made his own issues drifting around. Sometimes the drift helped. Sometimes he drifted right into a sack. Looks better in a limited sample this preseason.
I get his argument, but there's also another side to this: by the age Brady was when he signed up to be on his high school football team, guys today have already had years of private tutoring, attended multiple passing camps and have overall a much higher degree of refinement and understanding of the position before they even reach college. I'll agree the NCAA/NFL mental requirements for the position have been watered down, but that's a function of recognizing guys can win at QB in different ways as well, so instead of trying to mold them to a preconception of what the position should be, they prioritize maximizing what they are. And in time, even the players who go playing time due to their athleticism get good, or at the very least functional at the mental aspect of the game. Tom just has a very clear notion of what a quarterback should play like and anything that deviates from that is inherently negative to him.
Yup. This is why it’s impossible to have a one-size-fits-all approach here. I’m sure the Texans are quite pleased with their approach with Stroud but the Panthers may feel differently about Bryce Young.
Thank you. (That's what I had heard -- last year he was behind a lousy OL. Wasn't sure about 2022.)
First Round QB's since 2015:
Jameis Winston - Started immediatley.
Marcus Mariota - Started immediately
Jared Goff - Took over week 10
Carson Wentz - Sarted Immediately
Mitch Trubisky - Took over week 5
Patrick Mahomes- Sat a year
DeShaun Watson- Started Immediatley; injured week 7
Baker Mayfield - Started Immediately
Sam Darnold - Started Immediately
Josh Allen - Didn't start week 1 (Nathan Peterman lol), but started week 2 onward. Missed a few weeks in the middle of the year with an injury.
Lamar Jackson - Didn't start; took over week 10 for an injured Flacco
Kyler Murray - Started immediately
Daniel Jones - Took over week 4
Joe Burrow - Started immediately
Tua Tagovailoa -Took over as the starter week 8
Justin Herbert - Was supposed to sit to start but the Chargers Charger'd and the doctor injected Tyrod Taylor in the wrong spot and Herbert emergency started week 2 and never looked back.
Trevor Lawrence- Started Immediately
Zach Wilson - Started Immediately
Trey Lance - Sat a year
Justin Fields - Started Immediately
Mac Jones - Started Immedaitely
Bryce Young - Started Immediately
CJ Stroud - Started Immediately
Main takeaway is that the bulk of the first round QB's start immediately, 13 of 23. Two others (Allen, Herbert) took over week 2 so it's closer to 15/23. Burrow and Allen got hurt but it didn't really hurt their development. The guys who sat and learned are a mixed bag. Mahomes is obviously one of the 3 best QB's of all time. Lamar is an MVP candidate. Mitch Trubisky and Dan Jones sucked.
I kinda think the QB either has it or they don't. Of the guys who started right away, I'm not sure if any outcomes are different if the QB sat. Maybe Bryce Young last year? The other two glaring disasters are Darnold and Wilson.
Jameis Winston - Started immediatley.
Marcus Mariota - Started immediately
Jared Goff - Took over week 10
Carson Wentz - Sarted Immediately
Mitch Trubisky - Took over week 5
Patrick Mahomes- Sat a year
DeShaun Watson- Started Immediatley; injured week 7
Baker Mayfield - Started Immediately
Sam Darnold - Started Immediately
Josh Allen - Didn't start week 1 (Nathan Peterman lol), but started week 2 onward. Missed a few weeks in the middle of the year with an injury.
Lamar Jackson - Didn't start; took over week 10 for an injured Flacco
Kyler Murray - Started immediately
Daniel Jones - Took over week 4
Joe Burrow - Started immediately
Tua Tagovailoa -Took over as the starter week 8
Justin Herbert - Was supposed to sit to start but the Chargers Charger'd and the doctor injected Tyrod Taylor in the wrong spot and Herbert emergency started week 2 and never looked back.
Trevor Lawrence- Started Immediately
Zach Wilson - Started Immediately
Trey Lance - Sat a year
Justin Fields - Started Immediately
Mac Jones - Started Immedaitely
Bryce Young - Started Immediately
CJ Stroud - Started Immediately
Main takeaway is that the bulk of the first round QB's start immediately, 13 of 23. Two others (Allen, Herbert) took over week 2 so it's closer to 15/23. Burrow and Allen got hurt but it didn't really hurt their development. The guys who sat and learned are a mixed bag. Mahomes is obviously one of the 3 best QB's of all time. Lamar is an MVP candidate. Mitch Trubisky and Dan Jones sucked.
I kinda think the QB either has it or they don't. Of the guys who started right away, I'm not sure if any outcomes are different if the QB sat. Maybe Bryce Young last year? The other two glaring disasters are Darnold and Wilson.
There is no way of knowing if Zach Wilson was drafted by Andy Reid where he would be in his career or if CJ Stroud was on last year's Pats or Jets teams where he would be in his development. I have to believe that if a guy is good enough he will succeed but I think the situation is very important. Maye is a great prospect and I can't wait to see him play but this Pats offense is ass. I don't want his development to be derailed because he gets injured, sped up, is running for his life, or Baker drops every pass that hits him in the hands. I am perfectly happy to watch Brisset try to be competent with this team for however long it takes. Maye will be 22 on August 30th, he has a lot to learn and we shouldn't be in a rush. The offensive situation will never be perfect but this Pats situation is bottom 3 in the league right now.
One development issue with QBs is that the CBA has limited practice time a good amount, so few teams can afford to give them the kind of practice reps that they used to. Remember the whole Brady/Manning thing about Manning wanting all the practice reps and other teams like NE splitting them.... basically doesn't happen in-season anymore, unless you have a really old QB you want to rest, the limited practice opportunities in-season almost all go to the starter.
You're missing a few, including the patron saint of 'sit raw quarterbacks'.
Paxton Lynch
Josh Rosen
Dwayne Haskins
Jordan Love
Kenny Pickett
On the CJ Stroud part...I think that's a bit revisionist history.
Houston was 3-13-1 in 2022, selected Stroud. I'm not sure anyone at this time last year was thinking Houston had the infrastructure in place around Stroud. They have 2 good veterans on the OL, Tunsil and Mason. But the other 3 don't seem like they're all pro's, and as it turned out they dealt with a ton of OL injuries on the year. The WR room was Robert Woods, Nico Collins, Tank Dell, Noah Brown, John Metchie. Woods a serviceable vet, Collins a 3rd year pro who had yet to put up 500 yards in a season, Tank Dell a rookie 3rd round draft pick, Brown a career depth WR, and Metchie a former 2nd round pick who missed his rookie season battling leukemia. Devin Singletary was the lead RB and Dalton Schultz the TE. I think the view on that group this time last year was closer to how people view NE's offensive supporting cast entering this year.
I don't think anyone was looking at that group around Stroud at this time last year thinking Stroud was set up for success. It's a credit to how good his is that he got there and now people are looking back going, well yeah, of course Nico Collins and Tank Dell are a 1300 yard receivers.
Per various twitter accounts: Patriots are treating this week not like training camp, but like a normal week of practice leading to a Sunday game (at least in terms of scheduling)--off today, practice Wed-Fri, travel Saturday. Mayo said if a player is healthy he's gonna play on Sunday.
4. Mayo wants to see what the OL line can do but he would never tell this to the media and throw his OL under the bus
4a. Mayo wants to see what the OL line can do before he lets his OL leave Maye under the DL bus
And two of the eight people named in the lawsuit in 2010/2011 CBA were Brady and Manning that started to limit two a days, training camp and padded practices.
Yeah, I suck at multi tasking and missed a bunch.
I think the overall point is I'm not sure there's a benefit either way. I don't really see many QB's who started immediately that were ruined because of it. Maybe Bryce Young last year or the two Jets QB's. Conversely, sitting a top drafted QB for some period of time doesn't seem to yield better results.
I think the coaching staff matters much more than the on field supporting cast.
I think the overall point is that there are so many factors in a very SSS that it is impossible to glean any probative value from it. IOW, the coaching staff (and we fans) have to take Maye as sui generis
Exactly. Tons of factors. What division are you in? How good of an overall organization is that team? For example, any conversation that includes Carolina has to factor in what a rudderless clown show they have been the last few years. It's almost impossible to deduce whether a QB picked by them was an actual good pick or not.
If Tunsil was on the 2024 Pats we would be doing backflips. He is a 4x Pro Bowler at LT. I will admit Stroud is fantastic and they dealt with OL injuries but it wasn't all CJ, these young players stepped up in a QB friendly system.
https://x.com/mikekadlick/status/1826335872817700917
Vederian Lowe left #Patriots practice on Wednesday with what looked to be a lower back injury. He did not return. Caedan Wallace stepped in at LT in his place.
Vederian Lowe left #Patriots practice on Wednesday with what looked to be a lower back injury. He did not return. Caedan Wallace stepped in at LT in his place.
You’re a young guy with your whole life ahead of you, Vederian. Please take your time to return.
I will say in Lowe's defense... I kind of agree with Lazar... he's been much better than last year.... it's just he's still not "starting at LT in the NFL" level yet.
Fair enough but against regulars in the real season he is going to be get burnt...a lot. I wish they had kept McDermott.
Today's OL: Okorafor - Sow - Andrews - Robinson - Onwenu
Maye did get a few reps behind that line.
View: https://twitter.com/zm_cox/status/1826702226632716608
Maye did get a few reps behind that line.
View: https://twitter.com/zm_cox/status/1826702226632716608
I don't think so, but the combo of him playing better and Brissett struggling is making it more of a legit discussion. Still, the lack of 1st team reps for Drake Maye this week tells me Brissett is going to start Week 1.
