Patriots WRs

rodderick

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View: https://twitter.com/Nate_Tice/status/1868727271068160261


The Boutte story was fun for a couple weeks.... he still stinks, and I'm not sure he makes this team next year.
Boutte isn't particularly close to being an NFL player. Even Douglas should be fighting for the 5th WR spot on a solid team, their WR room might be the worst positional group in the entire league, they need four guys better than what they currently have. Maybe Bourne could be WR4.
 

Garshaparra

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Boutte isn't particularly close to being an NFL player. Even Douglas should be fighting for the 5th WR spot on a solid team, their WR room might be the worst positional group in the entire league, they need four guys better than what they currently have. Maybe Bourne could be WR4.
I'd posted this in the Maye thread the other day, but bears repeating:

Turnover =/= improvement. These were their preseason WR rosters the last 2 years:

JuJu Smith-Schuster, DeVante Parker, Kendrick Bourne, Demario Douglas, Tyquan Thornton, Kayshon Boutte, Ty Montgomery, Tre Nixon, Malik Cunningham, Raleigh Webb, Thyrick Pitts

- An atrocious 1+2 pairing, followed by the feisty Bourne and Pop combo, both of whom got hurt in 2023. Boutte rode the pine most of the year after his OOB catch. The rest of these guys were cut.

DeMario Douglas, Kendrick Bourne (PUP), Ja’Lynn Polk, K.J. Osborn, Tyquan Thornton, Javon Baker, Jalen Reagor, Kayshon Boutte, Kawaan Baker, David Wallis, Matt Landers

- So from a depth chart perspective, you've replaced 1+2 with 3 and a high draft pick, and moved the 5th guy from a very bad WR group (Thornton) up to 4th on the depth chart a year later. I mean, at least they didn't pick up Kadarius Toney, but this is an awful, awful group.

Most surprising to me is that the Pats haven't tried to pick up any waiver wire WRs this year. Granted, there's very little out there, but they cut 3 guys that made the 53, and added none. They regularly dress 4 WRs, at a time when we know our QB can throw "all the routes". This is high-order malfeasance.
 

8slim

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They regularly dress 4 WRs, at a time when we know our QB can throw "all the routes". This is high-order malfeasance.
Yup. There's zero excuses for this sad sack of receiver crap we have on the roster. We have a QB who can make the throws... and we have a WR room full of guys who suck at most elements of the position.

I do like Douglas as a 4th/5th guy. That he leads the WRs in receptions is mind boggling.

We could cut all of them, replace them with 5 guys who are on other team's practice squads, and I doubt we'd notice much of a difference.

Just something else to add to pile of garbage that Wolf called a roster this season.
 

E5 Yaz

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Yup. There's zero excuses for this sad sack of receiver crap we have on the roster. We have a QB who can make the throws... and we have a WR room full of guys who suck at most elements of the position.

I do like Douglas as a 4th/5th guy. That he leads the WRs in receptions is mind boggling.

We could cut all of them, replace them with 5 guys who are on other team's practice squads, and I doubt we'd notice much of a difference.

Just something else to add to pile of garbage that Wolf called a roster this season.
It's akin to having a complete rotation made up of No. 6 starters
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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To be fair, there were many who claimed that the Pats WR room was fine- that the problem was Jones, and everything would be fine with a competent QB.
 

rodderick

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To be fair, there were many who claimed that the Pats WR room was fine- that the problem was Jones, and everything would be fine with a competent QB.
What I recall is many people claiming that while the OL and receivers were awful, if Jones actually had talent he'd manage to show it even with a bad surrounding cast, as we're seeing with Maye now. Many died on the hill that it was simply impossible for any QB ever to display any modicum of ability with those receivers and linemen. I even recall Tom Brady being brought up in those discussions.
 

j44thor

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The "miss" that really pisses me off is Jalen Coker. Standout from HC. If you can't scout free talent in your own backyard what are you doing? He was a SR. bowl standout who at min should have been a priority UDFA and is probably better than any NE receiver right now. You can't tell me he would have chosen CAR over NE if given a similar offer. CAR had traded for Dionte Johnson, traded up to select Legette and still had Thielen. Coker had great measurables but was obv green coming from a small school. Then again he probably doesn't fare as well under NE WR tutelage.
 

Cellar-Door

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The "miss" that really pisses me off is Jalen Coker. Standout from HC. If you can't scout free talent in your own backyard what are you doing? He was a SR. bowl standout who at min should have been a priority UDFA and is probably better than any NE receiver right now. You can't tell me he would have chosen CAR over NE if given a similar offer. CAR had traded for Dionte Johnson, traded up to select Legette and still had Thielen. Coker had great measurables but was obv green coming from a small school. Then again he probably doesn't fare as well under NE WR tutelage.
I think CAR is an easy choice there... Only 4 WRs on guaranteed deals (Patriots had 2 rookies, Bourne, Juju, Douglas and Boutte) more return opportunities in CAR and a new offensive HC who loves to throw. Much better landing spot
 
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I think CAR is an easy choice there... Only 4 WRs on guaranteed deals (Patriots had 2 rookies, Bourne, Juju, Douglas and Boutte) more return opportunities in CAR and a new offensive HC who loves to throw. Much better landing spot
Could have drafted him late I suppose and avoided having to sign him as an UDFA. Not like Bell or Dial are integral parts of the future.
 

j44thor

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Could have drafted him late I suppose and avoided having to sign him as an UDFA. Not like Bell or Dial are integral parts of the future.
I don't even think they attempted to sign him. He was interviewed prior to the draft and spent a good amount of time talking about how he was excited to help out on special teams, anything to help the team. Could have started him there till they confirmed JuJu was no more.
Instead NE appears to have whiffed yet again at WR in the draft.
 

ShaneTrot

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At a certain point, it's laughable how poor the WR production is for the Pats. Ja'Marr Chase has 680 yards after the catch, Pop Douglas leads the Pats WRs with 508 total receiving yards, Henry leads the Pats with 635 yards. Chase has 15 receiving TDs, the Pats as a team have 14 total. Jakobi Meyers has 71 receptions for 802 yards, his QBs are nowhere near as capable as Maye.

Since Maye became the QB in the Texans game, Polk has 3 receptions for 13 yards on 13 targets. Polk missed the second Jets game. The corpse that is Juju Smith-Schuster has 4 broken tackles, Polk has none. I am cherry-picking stats here but these guys are terrible, its kind of shocking that not one has broken out after Maye took over. Boutte has had moments but he wears coverage.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't even think they attempted to sign him. He was interviewed prior to the draft and spent a good amount of time talking about how he was excited to help out on special teams, anything to help the team. Could have started him there till they confirmed JuJu was no more.
Instead NE appears to have whiffed yet again at WR in the draft.
I have no idea if they tried to sign him, but NE was going to be on the bottom of the list any UDFA's agent made. They had a ton of WRs and ST aces on guaranteed money and they drafted 2 WRs and a TE in the draft. There is zero reason he should have had any interest in them. The Patriots had to cut a bunch of WRs just to make the final roster, and that's with Bourne on PUP (which meant the last WR was always getting cut at some point). That was a terrible spot for an UDFA to come to, those guys want rosters that don't have guys on them, topheavy is best (3 established WRs for example then nothing, because those are the teams without guys with draft equity who are going to get the deep spots).

I get everyone is worked up because our WRs are terrible, but.... not drafting a guy who didn't get drafted is not a real criticism, it's just whining that a binky went elsewhere.
 

Auger34

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I think CAR is an easy choice there... Only 4 WRs on guaranteed deals (Patriots had 2 rookies, Bourne, Juju, Douglas and Boutte) more return opportunities in CAR and a new offensive HC who loves to throw. Much better landing spot
I am a Bucs fan. Canales’s reputation is that he’s a run guy and that he’s incredibly stubborn about it. People were complaining all of last year about how he forced the run on 1st and 2nd down despite the fact they (the Bucs) were an awful running team.
hes a Carroll disciple. I don’t think he loves to throw at all (he may be forced into it but his preferred method is running)
 

Cellar-Door

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I am a Bucs fan. Canales’s reputation is that he’s a run guy and that he’s incredibly stubborn about it. People were complaining all of last year about how he forced the run on 1st and 2nd down despite the fact they (the Bucs) were an awful running team.
hes a Carroll disciple. I don’t think he loves to throw at all (he may be forced into it but his preferred method is running)
The 2023 Bucs had a top 10 PROE, so whatever he may philosophically say he wants.... he throws it a lot compared to expectation. Every team fanbase in the NFL thinks their OC calls too many 1st and 2nd down runs that don't work.

Edit- not that it matters much, the bigger thing from an agent perspective is there was a really really easy path to making the roster as a WR/ST in CAR and a much harder one in NE.
 

j44thor

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I have no idea if they tried to sign him, but NE was going to be on the bottom of the list any UDFA's agent made. They had a ton of WRs and ST aces on guaranteed money and they drafted 2 WRs and a TE in the draft. There is zero reason he should have had any interest in them. The Patriots had to cut a bunch of WRs just to make the final roster, and that's with Bourne on PUP (which meant the last WR was always getting cut at some point). That was a terrible spot for an UDFA to come to, those guys want rosters that don't have guys on them, topheavy is best (3 established WRs for example then nothing, because those are the teams without guys with draft equity who are going to get the deep spots).

I get everyone is worked up because our WRs are terrible, but.... not drafting a guy who didn't get drafted is not a real criticism, it's just whining that a binky went elsewhere.
They had very little draft capital and guaranteed $$ in the WR position though. The only one guaranteed to make the final roster was Pop and two unproven day two/three draft picks. CAR had Dionte Johnson, Thielen, Legette all with more guarantees at the time. Boutte was far from a lock as was Juju and Bourne was always expected to start on the PUP and there was no guarantee if/when he would return. Tyquan was also not guaranteed to make the roster.
It is borderline comical to suggest the worst WR room in the NFL didn't have a need for more WR talent, especially when it was free.
 

Cellar-Door

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They had very little draft capital and guaranteed $$ in the WR position though. The only one guaranteed to make the final roster was Pop and two unproven day two/three draft picks. CAR had Dionte Johnson, Thielen, Legette all with more guarantees at the time. Boutte was far from a lock as was Juju and Bourne was always expected to start on the PUP and there was no guarantee if/when he would return. Tyquan was also not guaranteed to make the roster.
It is borderline comical to suggest the worst WR room in the NFL didn't have a need for more WR talent, especially when it was free.
They had Bourne, Polk, Baker, Osborn, Douglas all basically locks, they had a recent 2nd and recent 6th rounder (Thornton and Boute) as well as a returner (Reagor) and.... Juju who had a ton of dead money. That's 8 guys who were real roster threats, plus guys on futures.

Carolina had the 3 guys you mentioned, Marshall, Mingo and that was basically it, the rest of the roster was guys with no real contracts or draft capital... much easier to make that roster.

The Patriots could have used more talent it turns out... but they also had a ton of comparably thought of (or really more highly thought of) players fighting for roster spots, and Coker was an UDFA, we have no idea if the Patriots reached out (I'd bet they did), but CAR was clearly a MUCH easier roster to make.

An UDFA isn't looking at the top of the WR chart, he's looking at 5-7, CAR had much less competition for those spots in terms of guys the front office had commitment to either via money or draft picks spent.

But also... what are we doing here? It's an UDFA.... the pure definition of super-low probability shot in the dark moves. At no point should anyone be complaining about what UDFA weren't signed. Like the trade down instead of Ladd argument... sure that was a decision they made on a pretty high probability shot where they had total control.
 
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j44thor

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They had Bourne, Polk, Baker, Osborn, Douglas all basically locks, they had a recent 2nd and recent 6th rounder (Thornton and Boute) as well as a returner (Reagor) and.... Juju who had a ton of dead money. That's 8 guys who were real roster threats, plus guys on futures.

Carolina had the 3 guys you mentioned, Marshall, Mingo and that was basically it, the rest of the roster was guys with no real contracts or draft capital... much easier to make that roster.

The Patriots could have used more talent it turns out... but they also had a ton of comparably thought of (or really more highly thought of) players fighting for roster spots, and Coker was an UDFA, we have no idea if the Patriots reached out (I'd bet they did), but CAR was clearly a MUCH easier roster to make.

An UDFA isn't looking at the top of the WR chart, he's looking at 5-7, CAR had much less competition for those spots in terms of guys the front office had commitment to either via money or draft picks spent.

But also... what are we doing here? It's an UDFA.... the pure definition of super-low probability shot in the dark moves. At no point should anyone be complaining about what UDFA weren't signed. Like the trade down instead of Ladd argument... sure that was a decision they made on a pretty high probability shot where they had total control.
If any team knows the value of late round/UDFA WR signings it is NE. They haven't drafted a successful WR in the 4th rd or higher since Deion Branch over 2 decades ago. Thanks for mentioning Mingo I had forgotten that recent 2nd rounder was also in CAR at the time. Coker wasn't a UDFA from Utah State. He played 45min away at HC. Multiple people that I follow had him graded as a late rd draft pick. NE had a significant scouting advantage given their proximity since there isn't a lot of all-22 available for HC games.

I get it you will forever make excuses for NE as you consistently do. They have sucked at drafting WRs for 20 years, only getting extremely lucky on 6th, 7th rd and UDFA picks in that time plus a tiny amount of trades that worked out vast majority bombed as well. At some point we have to acknowledge the process is broken.
 

BigJimEd

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If any team knows the value of late round/UDFA WR signings it is NE. They haven't drafted a successful WR in the 4th rd or higher since Deion Branch over 2 decades ago. Thanks for mentioning Mingo I had forgotten that recent 2nd rounder was also in CAR at the time. Coker wasn't a UDFA from Utah State. He played 45min away at HC. Multiple people that I follow had him graded as a late rd draft pick. NE had a significant scouting advantage given their proximity since there isn't a lot of all-22 available for HC games.

I get it you will forever make excuses for NE as you consistently do. They have sucked at drafting WRs for 20 years, only getting extremely lucky on 6th, 7th rd and UDFA picks in that time plus a tiny amount of trades that worked out vast majority bombed as well. At some point we have to acknowledge the process is broken.
All of this may be true but also not relevant to whether Car or NE was a better option for a UDFA WR.

I think we all agree they need to do a better job of finding WR talent.
 

Cellar-Door

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If any team knows the value of late round/UDFA WR signings it is NE. They haven't drafted a successful WR in the 4th rd or higher since Deion Branch over 2 decades ago. Thanks for mentioning Mingo I had forgotten that recent 2nd rounder was also in CAR at the time. Coker wasn't a UDFA from Utah State. He played 45min away at HC. Multiple people that I follow had him graded as a late rd draft pick. NE had a significant scouting advantage given their proximity since there isn't a lot of all-22 available for HC games.

I get it you will forever make excuses for NE as you consistently do. They have sucked at drafting WRs for 20 years, only getting extremely lucky on 6th, 7th rd and UDFA picks in that time plus a tiny amount of trades that worked out vast majority bombed as well. At some point we have to acknowledge the process is broken.
Except... None of that is relevant to my posts? I didn't argue the Patriots WRs are good, or that they were good evaluators. I pointed out that Coker has an agent, and any decent agent would steer him to CAR where it was a much clearer spot to getting and keeping a roster spot given the rosters.
 

j44thor

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All of this may be true but also not relevant to whether Car or NE was a better option for a UDFA WR.

I think we all agree they need to do a better job of finding WR talent.
Would you rather have Theilen, Dionte Johnson, Mingo,Legette or Pop, JuJu, Bourne on IR, Boutte ( suspended for gambling), Polk and Baker?
It is debatable but I don't believe Coker had a decision to make between CAR and NE.

I've never heard NE had any interest. If he had chosen CAR over NE I'd be disappointed but would understand, not giving him any consideration in NE is my issue. Show me a quote that says NE gave him a contract offer, camp visit, sent a scout 45 min down the road at any point in time.
I'm not faulting them for missing, I'm faulting them for not trying.

I'm not expecting Coker to be more than a solid #3 for his career, he isn't Puka but a solid 3 would look really good right about now.
 

j44thor

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Except... None of that is relevant to my posts? I didn't argue the Patriots WRs are good, or that they were good evaluators. I pointed out that Coker has an agent, and any decent agent would steer him to CAR where it was a much clearer spot to getting and keeping a roster spot given the rosters.
Your entire argument is a fallacy. You are claiming Coker chose CAR for reasons which are at best debatable. My argument is NE never made any sort of offer so Coker choosing CAR is irrelevant there wasn't another choice.

My point was it was a miss not to have scouted or shown some level of interest in a local kid at a position of need. I don't care if he went to the 49ers or Rams, NE wasn't considered because they weren't interested. The failure was not identifying a potential asset they had very easy access to, not that they had a loaded WR room that prevented them from acquiring a desired target. The latter part is a made up excuse.
 

Cellar-Door

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Your entire argument is a fallacy. You are claiming Coker chose CAR for reasons which are at best debatable. My argument is NE never made any sort of offer so Coker choosing CAR is irrelevant there wasn't another choice.

My point was it was a miss not to have scouted or shown some level of interest in a local kid at a position of need. I don't care if he went to the 49ers or Rams, NE wasn't considered because they weren't interested. The failure was not identifying a potential asset they had very easy access to, not that they had a loaded WR room that prevented them from acquiring a desired target. The latter part is a made up excuse.
Except... You have no idea what offers he had. You starting at an assumption without any evidence. As to not scouting or showing interest.... They had him in for a pro-day and he met with the staff, so they certainly showed some interest in the draft process.
View: https://twitter.com/LosTalksPats/status/1781364884737028576?
 

BigJimEd

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I'm not faulting them for missing, I'm faulting them for not trying.
I don't know if NE tried to sign him and @Cellar-Door specifically said "I have no idea if they tried to sign him"


Here's your actual quote that caused the pushback about who Coker might have preferred:
You can't tell me he would have chosen CAR over NE if given a similar offer.
There were certainly reasons to choose CAR but none of knows what offer, if any, NE gave him.
 

j44thor

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I don't know if NE tried to sign him and @Cellar-Door specifically said "I have no idea if they tried to sign him"


Here's your actual quote that caused the pushback about who Coker might have preferred:
There were certainly reasons to choose CAR but none of knows what offer, if any, NE gave him.
You parsed out a hypothetical throw away line. Give me a break.
 

BigJimEd

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You parsed out a hypothetical throw away line. Give me a break.
whatever. It is what you argued and I wasn't the one who pointed out why Carolina might be preferable. Not others fault for taking what you say at face value.

Maybe you should try slowing down and fully read posts instead of arguing a point nobody has made. Up to you
 
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j44thor

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whatever. It is what you argued and I wasn't the one who pointed out why Carolina might be preferable. Not others fault for taking what you say at face value.

Maybe you should try slowing down and fully read posts instead of arguing a point nobody has made. Up to you
You and Cellar missed the forest through the trees. My primary point wasn't that NE was a more desirable destination for CAR though that is certainly debatable. The point was they had a potential gem 45 min away and didn't seem to put much effort into scouting him. CAR clearly wanted him, they gave him one of the highest UDFA contracts last off-season which is paying off in spades. They either didn't put the effort in or didn't like what they saw. Either way they missed out on someone right under their nose.
 

Patsfan1983

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The Patriots should 100% claim Diontae Johnson.

EDIT- Didnt realize he is an UFA after this year. Less Bullish
Id still claim him. He is a diva but he gets open. Might answer some question if its the line limiting WRs
 

8slim

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The Patriots should 100% claim Diontae Johnson.

EDIT- Didnt realize he is an UFA after this year. Less Bullish
Why would we expect a guy who was a jerk and miserable in Baltimore to ever show up in Foxboro if we claimed him?
 

Auger34

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Why would we expect a guy who was a jerk and miserable in Baltimore to ever show up in Foxboro if we claimed him?
Yeah, I actually think it would be a terrible idea to pick up Diontae. Diontae would be a rental for a team that has 0 shot of making the playoffs. Pats have a young WR room and it seems like Diontae has a pretty big attitude problem.

Don’t want him anywhere near Foxboro….unless they somehow worked out a contract extension already, which is almost impossible
 

johnmd20

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Why can't this team actually try to find talent as opposed to picking up the garbage cast off from 3 separate teams?
 

j44thor

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I would definitely consider him in the off-season but have a feeling he'd be a malcontent playing for a non-playoff team. He wants a chance to showcase his abilities for his next contract, won't get that with just 2 games left.
 

DJnVa

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Mayo is clearly coaching to save his job, as any youth movement went out the window after the 1 week benching of Bourne. If Polk is smart, he'll get injured in practice and hang around for 3+ years like Thornton on promise/sunk costs alone.
COMMUNITY NOTE: He was on IR, not benched.
 

DJnVa

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Polk had been averaging 32 snaps a game. Yesterday he got 3. Baker got 8. Obviously neither had a catch.
Weird because we heard the young guys were going to get MORE reps and Polk gets his fewest of the year. I did see Baker had a target but Maye overthrew him (may have actually been throwing it away as Baker wasn't open).
 

DJnVa

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See above--I caught it. Leaving my mistake to everyone to see.
 

NomarsFool

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Obviously the coaches see what they do in practice, but I’d still like to know whether Polk has any chance of being in the rotation at all. It’s amazing to me the Pats can be so bad at evaluating and developing WRs.