Do they even really need Polk? They could dress Boutte, Douglas, Bourne, Osborn and one of the terrible young guys (Thornton/Baker) as an emergency option
Healthy scratching Polk seems feasible.
Patriots WRs
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Healthy scratching Polk seems feasible.
Not gonna lie, to read all of these names listed out one in front of the other like this is tough. This group is 32 of 32.
True, but if you aggregate all 5 guys’ receiving stats into 1 player, you’re looking at a top 5 WR!
Jesus, sometimes it feels like I'm being heard.
Great receivers are the key to making offenses work in today's NFL, and have been for almost a decade. Unless you have GOATs at QB like Brady and Mahomes, you simply don't stand a chance without weapons.
maybe a bit too early to call it fore sure, but Polk looks like yet another second round bust...
Way too early to call it, especially since it's finishing catches that looks like the problem. I have more hope a guy who had good hands even through contact in college is just in a weird funk than someone like Harry who never got open and just looked too slow.
As someone who was raging at Polk in my living room yesterday, I'm a hard agree here. If Polk can Clifford Franklin himself a solution to his drops, and he's waaaaay too early in his career to say he won't, he's going to become Maye's favorite target. The drops and pratfalls will be immensely frustrating until he figures it out, but with the team only playing for a draft pick there's no reason to not give him the time.
Agreed. But it's also like having an ace SP or a shut-down closer; it slots everyone else down a rung to where they are more likely to improve. Or perhaps more like the advantage to NBA players when you have a top-10 scorer to draw defenders into their orbit and open up space for you.
The word I use around here all the time is gravity. When the Pats were going and getting the Parkers and Bournes of the world, they were filled with receivers that were #2's at best, mostly #3's.
If you get the #1, that #3 can become a #2 based on the gravity the #1 creates. The #3 can play like a #2. It's why the Chase/Higgins, Waddle/Hill, Brown/Smith, Deebo/Aiyuk, Diggs/Nico, Puka/Kupp, etc. tandems cause so much damage. And then you see what happens when even 1 of them go down (AJ Brown this season, Puka, then Kupp, Diggs without Nico Collins, Chase had 10 catches for 97 yards and 0tds in weeks 1 and 2 without Higgins, then goes for 19/396/5tds when Higgins returns in 3 games).
The Patriots year after year are showing up with maybe one guy that would be a #2 anywhere else in the NFL, but usually it's a bunch of #3's and #4's, and now when those guys get hurt, holy shit, it's bad. They just have nothing.
The BB teams relied on Brady so much, it's hard to put it into words. But he also had arguably the games greatest tight end, and an all world slot receiver getting open in 2 seconds even if they didn't have that true #1 on the outside and a third down back that could be there when all else failed. Currently, we have two lumbering tight ends that are perfect when you need to check it down (unfortunately, they aren't very good blockers either), basically no pass catching threat out of the backfield and a bunch of, at best, #3 and #4 receivers). Then you add in the line problems, and woo boy, that's a recipe for shit.
I just hope it's all part of the plan, the sucking, the in game decisions, the sitting of Maye for so long, the stockpiling of cash for next season, because I can get all aboard that train, and am, in fact, already on it. I just don't know if the train is actually in the right station, and I'm just deluding myself.
This is 100% true and is a big reason why I was against the Polk pick at the time. Not only was his college production relatively lackluster before a late breakout, nothing in his athletic profile suggested he could be a #1 either. Most were projecting him with upside of a #2. We have a bunch of guys on the roster already that would look great if they were the #2 or #3, but the WR corps overall is bad because these #2 guys are being asked to be a #1, and #3 guys asked to be #2s. But there was a huge run on WRs, all of the WRs who had true #1 in their range of outcomes were gone, and instead of zigging when others zagged, the front office seemed to use a relatively simplistic framework of "our WRs are bad, therefore we need one, let's draft one" and not only did we not address that need at all, we also passed up on a lot of defensive talent.
Even if Polk had played well and looked like a Romeo Doubs type receiver that people were projecting him as, our WR corps would still be atrocious.
Lazar had this to say about Bourne, FWIW:
WR Kendrick Bourne had some chances that will hopefully hit soon. He had a would-be completion prevented by Josh Hines-Allen jumping offside, was open on an in cut on third down on the second drive, open on a shallow crosser late, and open on the 14-yard out they did connect on. Those two will start connecting once they've logged some reps together.
https://www.patriots.com/news/after-further-review-breaking-down-patriots-qb-drake-maye-s-second-start-the-pats-defense-and-more-from-loss-to-jags
Bourne seems healthy. He's getting open. He's not getting huge money, just $1.3M in salary, and the Pats already paid his 5.5M bonus. His next two years are 5.5M per, non guaranteed. He seems absolutely worth a 49ers 4th rounder, maybe even a 3rd with a pick swap. Why hasn't this already happened?
I think Bourne is supposed to be a good locker room guy, but with the way the season is shaping up (and I have no problem losing the rest of the way and getting the first pick) I wouldn't mind him being traded for any draft pick and we see what we have with all the young guys. Some may stink, some may be OK, but let's see how they are after 2 months of having a real QB throw to them
I don’t really want to make Maye’s development harder for a 4th rounder in a bad draft. And Bourne has a good contract so there is longer term value there too.
A far sighted organization would realize this is a long term rebuild and try to take advantage of teams’ willingness to discount the future. See if somebody will give you a 2026 or even 2027 2nd for Bourne.
A far sighted organization would realize this is a long term rebuild and try to take advantage of teams’ willingness to discount the future. See if somebody will give you a 2026 or even 2027 2nd for Bourne.
Bourne isn't getting a 2nd round pick, no matter what year it is. Come on. Adams, a hall of famer, got a 2nd. Amani Cooper got a 3rd.
Bourne isn't in the same galaxy as those two guys, and coming off an ACL Not even close to possible.
I get the temptation on this but the Pats #1 priority should be developing Maye and having a competent WR in the room actually helps with that. If the market for Bourne is a R4 or R5 pick, I think I'd rather hang on to him for the year. You have confidence Wolf could turn a R4 pick into a better asset than Bourne is right now?
I realize it’s unrealistic but set a high price and be happy to keep him if nobody bites. Selling one of your only competent offensive players for a 4th when he has a good contract and you’re trying to develop a young QB is crazy. If he stays it’s a good thing.
I agree, he should stay. Just saying that a 2nd round pick isn't in the cards for Bourne. You can ask for a second round pick but you'll be laughed off the phone. It would be a waste of time.
SF invested a 1st in a Bourne like WR Piersall (flanker/slot) who just got his first snaps of the season last game. They expect to get Jennings back this week who has been much, much better than Bourne this season. Only reason they would probably look for a vet WR like Bourne is if they are concerned long term about Deebo. Probably too early to tell on that one.
But the team would still need those #2 and #3 guys. The WR corps still needed to be rebuilt, and there being no #1 guy where the Pats picked doesn't mean you don't pick the #2/#3 guy if you like him. If Polk was drafted to be a #1 then they clearly fucked up, but the pursuits of Aiyuk and Ridley show that the team understands the concept of needing an alpha (Ridley having fewer catches than Polk aside).
The Tampa Bay Bucs might be waking up this morning and disagreeing with that assessment.
That said, they ain't getting a 2nd for Bourne, nor a 3rd, from anyone. I think the question is does it help Drake to develop with Bourne in the room, knowing if Bourne shows anything, he's likely gone after the season because I don't see the Pats eating 7.9mil per year towards the cap if they keep him next year (same for the following year). Or does it help Drake more to try to develop chemistry with guys that will, fortunately or unfortunately, still be here like Pop, Boutte, Polk, Baker, etc.
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I suppose stranger things have happened but I can’t imagine any team would give up anything, even a conditional pick, for KJ Osborn. Most teams have a similar player or two already on their roster or practice squad.
Bourne, they just re-signed for 3 years (for reasons I don’t understand) so clearly the front office likes him. Maybe you could get a 6th year or 7th for him but he’s coming off an ACL tear, hasn’t done anything since getting back on the field and wasn’t very good to begin with. A WR desperate team might bite though for a 7th or late round swap.
I love Kendrick Bourne, awesome guy, underrated WR.... if they can get a 4th or a 3rd (sending something back) they absolutely should take it. He's a 29 year old #2/#3 WR. The Patriots season is lost, they should be spending their time developing young guys. If you want a reliable #3 it can be Osbourn. Honestly based on how they are playing on the line they run so much 2 TE that they have plenty of security blankets (Douglas too) for Maye in Henry and Hooper. If you can get value... Polk needs to be allowed to play his way out of this funk, Baker will eventually be needing snaps, Douglas, Henry, Hooper and now the semi-breakout of Boutte.... Bourne is a guy who should be seeing less snaps anyway, and you'll likely add 1 or 2 WRs in the offseason via FA/Draft which cuts his future snaps too.
Yeah, maybe the Bucs or some team with injuries "overpays" for Bourne. Wolf should certainly listen.
Not sure Bourne is gone next year though. It's not the 7.9M cap hit but 5.5M salary that is the key number. That is what the Pats ultimately save against the cap. I'm not convinced Bourne is even worth that but pretty confident the Patriots FO thinks he is.
Osborn is on a 1 year deal and isn’t any good. Healthy scratched twice and barely used otherwise. Not sure he’s ever done anything to demonstrate he can be a reliable #3.
Other than being one in MIN? Who cares if he's on a 1 year deal, I don't think either he or Bourne should be in this team's long term plans. You have invested in Polk and Baker, you have Douglas and Boutte giving you okay production on rookie deals, almost certainly they will chase at least 1 maybe 2 potential top end WRs....that should be next year's room. I was just saying if you REALLY think Maye need a vet at WR (I don't, he has 2 vet TEs and he has been targeting young guys heavily anyway) Osborn can play that role, he has similar production to Bourne over his career.
If he was a reliable #3, he wouldn't have basically lost his job to a 6th round pick in Jalen Nailor in Minnesota over a 3mil cap hit this season.
But the Pats are very good at finding other team's #3 castoffs, Parker, Agholor, Bourne, Reagor, Osborn, JuJu, etc. In 2020, our 2nd leading receiver at 47 catches (James White had 49 and Meyers had 59) was Damiere Byrd who played 30% of his career snaps (an almost 8 year career) that season.
I don't know why anyone pushes back on the disaster that has been the Patriots WR situation for years and years and years now.
You said he’s a reliable #3. Nothing in his background suggests that he is. Among the leagues worst drop % last year and can’t get playing time in the current WR depleted situation.
What about him makes him “reliable”? If he was a reliable #3, why is he healthy scratched in New England?
Yeah, it’s kind of amazing. I’ve argued in various threads that they are the worse in the NFL (and if not the worst, definitely in the bottom 3).
The Patriots skill players are putrid. Their offensive tackle situation is really, really bad. These are things that were known before the season. It shouldn’t be a big surprise that they suck
I mean... his background is he was a consistent #3 WR in MIN, he put up 540 to 650 yards each year. Single season Drop % is a wildly overrated stat, last year was a career outlier, but even then he was 25th in the league, guys above him included... Higgins, Nacua, Hill, JSN and Sutton, any of whom we'd kill for.
The real answer is the league is loaded with guys who can be consistent #3 WRs, and more come in every year, the Patriots probably have a bunch of guys who could easily step into better offenses and be the #3... it's #1s that are rare, and #2s are a clear step above #3s.
Even then the point wasn't that Osborn is good or valuable to the team... it was that Bourne is eminently replaceable and they should absolutely trade him if they can get a mid-round pick, and if for some reason, as many suggested you NEED a veteran WR in the group, Osborn is fine though as I noted, it's not valuable, they should just play the young guys and Henry can be the vet security blanket (or Hooper).
Brissett throwing to WRs (5 starts): 38-62, 316 yards, 1 TD
Maye throwing to WRs (2 starts plus some attempts in the Jets game): 21-35, 273 yards, 3 TD
Maye throwing to WRs (2 starts plus some attempts in the Jets game): 21-35, 273 yards, 3 TD
Maybe a week off will help him (and obviously heal him). I'd like to see Baker get some snaps.
Thornton had a great week of practice, woo hoo! Breakout game.
https://www.patspulpit.com/2024/10/25/24279506/tyquan-thornton-return-patriots-jets-great-week-of-practice
https://www.patspulpit.com/2024/10/25/24279506/tyquan-thornton-return-patriots-jets-great-week-of-practice
While I have no Thornton expectations.... it would be interesting to see:
1. Thornton with a QB who is willing and able to throw it deep
2. Maye with a WR who has deep speed instead of throwing go routes to Boutte with almost no separation
1. Thornton with a QB who is willing and able to throw it deep
2. Maye with a WR who has deep speed instead of throwing go routes to Boutte with almost no separation
I agree with this. It is one of the big things I am interested in when it comes to this game.
I thought both deep balls to Boutte were pretty open. He won handily and stacked the DB on both of them. I actually can't think of many if any deep plays in which Thornton won as cleanly vs. man on the outside.
Even if he wins on the route do you have faith he can track the ball and make a catch? I'm going to be legitimately shocked if he can. He hasn't had many deep balls thrown his way, but when he has, he's shown no ability to complete the play.
That’s what this season is for and why, after Maye’s development, I’m watching. It’s legitimately interesting to see who can emerge this season and set themselves up to be a part of the next—if not great at least—winning Patriots team. For that reason alone, I’m hoping Thornton sees some snaps this week.
Wasn't a knock on Boutte, he's been really good, but he's not getting a whole lot of separation:
View: https://twitter.com/nextgenstats/status/1845535134839435338
The deep balls he's getting look a lot like that as a good outcome... less than a yard of separation and the corner catches him almost immediately. Thornton the hope would be for the type of plays you see from faster WRs, where they get the step and pull away. Thornton's problem is he often doesn't win, and when he does either he doesn't catch it or his QB wildly underthrows him.
No, hence why I said I have no expectation. But he has elite NFL speed, and that's something we lack and that can really change a defense, so you'd like to at least give him one or two weeks of work with your rookie QB to see if he can translate it.
I know he ran a fast 40, but does this show on the field at all? He seems to me like the kind of guy who, once he gets the pads on, loses his athleticism - he rarely jumps off the screen to me like Tyreek or Waddle or other players of his ilk. I’d expect him to at least have the Troy Williamson highlight package full of him getting two yards on his defender and then dropping the pass, but it feels like we don’t even see that.
There are a decent number of clips of him torching guys. I think to pre-season where he absolutely ran away from a corner and Jacoby underthrew him by legit 7-10 yards
Isn’t the knock on Thornton (other than the stature) that he has a lot of waste and superfluous movements in his routes that throw off timing and limit his separation?
Thornton had a great week of practice = Polk in the protocol/take the week off + Boutte STFU and run your routes correctly or else Twiggy takes your spot. He’ll be WR5.