Patriots WRs
- Thread starter Zedia
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Kind of wild to think that the Pats had a bottom 5 (or bottom 2) WR group heading into the offseason and the three guys Wolf added (Baker, Polk, Osborn) have been useless
you’d think it would have been somewhat easy to upgrade that unit to below average but not terrible, with a nice allotment of picks and tons of cap space.
you’d think it would have been somewhat easy to upgrade that unit to below average but not terrible, with a nice allotment of picks and tons of cap space.
he basically didn't play, something like 10 snaps, seemed like he got benched for the illegal shift penalty.
Am I crazy to think that both Bourne and Douglas had decent games. Both had tough sideline catches and made some plays. Wasn't a lot of room to be had out there, but they did the job. Put a #1 receiver out there with them and things might look good.
Wolf has been with the org since 2020 which coincides perfectly with a long series of dumpster tier draft picks and free agent signings. Who knows how everything shook out when he wasn't the head grocery picker, but this off-season being more of the same (potentially) doesn't bode well heading into a future where they need to desperately fix the WR issue.
I'm confident in calling him a bust. He can't play, he can't catch, he's an idiot to boot.
Did Javon Baker have any snaps yesterday? I thought he was going to be involved in the game plan last week but got sick so KJ was activated but assumed Baker would get some snaps yesterday. We at least need to find out if we have concepts of an X receiver on this team and I don't think anyone else is close to the category besides Baker who is in the default position because he hasn't proven he isn't an X yet.
I understand Mayo wants to play the WRs that block the best in the run game but apparently that doesn't extend to the OL so might be worth figuring out if we have any WR that can get open deep and catch the damn ball.
I understand Mayo wants to play the WRs that block the best in the run game but apparently that doesn't extend to the OL so might be worth figuring out if we have any WR that can get open deep and catch the damn ball.
Baker played 4 snaps. Polk played 9.
Boutte is basically out there every play now, 96% this week and it was somewhere around there against the Jets. Bourne got an increased load and was up to 78% with Pop at 71%.
I'm not sure what to make of Boutte. For a guy who is on the field so much he doesn't get very many targets.
Boutte is basically out there every play now, 96% this week and it was somewhere around there against the Jets. Bourne got an increased load and was up to 78% with Pop at 71%.
I'm not sure what to make of Boutte. For a guy who is on the field so much he doesn't get very many targets.
Baker is becoming more involved on offense, to the point where he's now active on game days, but he's still not consistent enough to dislodge the folks in front of him. Let's see if he continues to earn snaps.
Yeah AVP and Mayo have been praising Boutte for his blocking but he just doesn't seem to have any special traits as a WR hence my comment about finding out if you have WR that can actually get open deep and catch the ball. Boutte had one nice catch on the Maye 40yd TD but outside of that he has been pretty forgettable. Several drops and never seems to separate.
He can't get open. Even the targets he gets there are guys blanketing him. Granted, kudos to him for winning some contested catches so it's not all bad.
Boutte has a chance to be a good WR3. If he's your WR1 right now it's because the WR talent is in the toilet, which it is.
I really hope they explore WR in both the draft and offseason trade market. A veteran and a young stud is what they need to properly level everyone else. Metcalf, Brown, Higgins, Kupp...some guys could be available at a reasonable acquisition cost. And if they trade down for picks, they could land in a good spot in the draft for the top WRs. Of course none of this really works without a functional OL too.
Yeah, I get that they don't want to be predictable in a Boutte on the field = run type thing but also it seems like he's harming them on passing downs with his inablity to get open. This will be an upopular take but I would rotate Polk in more with Boutte.
As far as Baker is concerned, give him like 3 routes to run and see what happens. Go balls, deep post, crosser. Stuff like that, not option routes where he has to read the defense and adjust based on the coverage.
I think they should sit Polk down for a week... his issues seem to be (despite his protestations otherwise) mental... he's pressing and making mistakes, then he presses more, and now he's a mess overthinking everything.
Boutte is a weird one... they want him to play because he's a hardworker and practices well.... but he just does not get open and throwing contested balls to a 5'10" guy is not a sustainable strategy. He probably has to start...but a 3WR set of Boutte/Bourne/Douglas is incredibly low upside..At some point you need to start seeing if Polk can break out of his funk or Baker can give you anything, because Boutte/Bourne as your outside WRs has a ceiling that is very very low.
EDIT- I think they should consider trading Bourne... he seems like a nice guy, he's an okay player, but I'm not sure what his role is here long-term. Almost certainly going to get a #1 WR this offseason (whether that's a real #1 or a #2 who becomes our #1), Douglas is your slot... and you have Boutte/Polk (no way they give up after 1 year) and Baker likely locked to roster spots, and may add 1 or 2 more WRs.... I don't know that he's enough better than Boutte to have him block off the Z role.
Boutte is a weird one... they want him to play because he's a hardworker and practices well.... but he just does not get open and throwing contested balls to a 5'10" guy is not a sustainable strategy. He probably has to start...but a 3WR set of Boutte/Bourne/Douglas is incredibly low upside..At some point you need to start seeing if Polk can break out of his funk or Baker can give you anything, because Boutte/Bourne as your outside WRs has a ceiling that is very very low.
EDIT- I think they should consider trading Bourne... he seems like a nice guy, he's an okay player, but I'm not sure what his role is here long-term. Almost certainly going to get a #1 WR this offseason (whether that's a real #1 or a #2 who becomes our #1), Douglas is your slot... and you have Boutte/Polk (no way they give up after 1 year) and Baker likely locked to roster spots, and may add 1 or 2 more WRs.... I don't know that he's enough better than Boutte to have him block off the Z role.
Well he should start by not claiming to have the best hands in the NFL and proceed the next day to have them literally bounce off his hands like stone hands from "unnecessary roughness".
View: https://twitter.com/BellinoZee/status/1853422417718251598
I disagree with the takeaway (the safety was always staring down the deep ball) but c'mon guys... can we just run a route without falling down. Eliminates an entire side of the field.
I disagree with the takeaway (the safety was always staring down the deep ball) but c'mon guys... can we just run a route without falling down. Eliminates an entire side of the field.
I would tend to agree. He needed to come back and show something to have a market and he hasn’t. At the same time, a few teams intent on contending are getting thin-ish at WR (SF, Hou, Det) and they may offer something to at least make you think about it.
Genuine question for the board here. Obviously there is a talent issue, but I can't help but notice the lack of fundamentals from the entire group. Lining up improperly, running bad or poorly timed routes, more than 1 receiver in the general area of the throw, and the drops obviously.
The talent is one thing, but they generally do not seem prepared or have the attention to detail. Is this just a giant flaw in the scouting process? Or is it more in the day-to-day coaching?
The talent is one thing, but they generally do not seem prepared or have the attention to detail. Is this just a giant flaw in the scouting process? Or is it more in the day-to-day coaching?
It's coaching. The lack of attention to detail from coaches. Like Mayo's comments about the wind in OT yesterday, it's clear he didn't notice the wind had changed.
Probably a lot of things, coaching is likely part of it, Hughes has not impressed. Part of it is just overall team discipline, a young team, and a bad team. But also at the end of the day it does come down to the player. Plenty of guys run their routes correctly and hard every down on bad teams, plenty of guys can not false start. Bourne had false start issues going back to SF... and that is a well coached team. I do think part of the issue for all these guys is.... they are trying to prove something, and many of them are being asked to do more than they can. Polk's issues started when they were playing him as an X (he isn't one) and everyone called him the #1 WR... then Boutte moved to that role, then Bourne comes back and declares himself the #1.
This is a poor undisciplined team, and the WR room is full of guys who are trying to prove themselves and think they are more than they are.
In theory this sounds right, but I dont think it's correct in practice. Passing plays aren't just designed for everyone to get open. They're usually layered and built to manipulate coverage into finding open windows or receivers. Being the 3rd or 4th option on a play doesn't mean he gets to just roast the 3rd CB. It means he's pulling the safety deep so someone else can hit the deep in-route, or he's the first drag receiver through a zone and he's trying to pull linebacker coverage so the trailing receiver has space.
I think what you're saying could be true for #2 receivers as oftentimes they're running a longer developing route that should break open after it's determined the #1 option is covered, or should be the fall back if the defense reads the play and takes away the primary receiver. But by the time you get to the 4th option, you're often either out of time, or throwing to someone who was a decoy and was never intended to be open as the play was designed.
After watching Chase last night, one is acutely aware of what a true #1 receiver can do for an offense. It changes the entire dynamic and he did this without his sidekick Higgins. I was in the rebuild the offensive line contingent but now I wonder if a true #1 WR might be a better route to go. OTOH is there a Chase type in this draft? If there is, should we grab it? Inquiring minds want to know.
No, there isn't a Chase in most every draft, I think he's either the highest or 2nd highest graded WR for Zierlien in the 11 years he's been releasing grades.
There are good WRs in this draft, but neither Tet nor Hunter (even for those who like him more at WR than CB) is a Chase level WR prospect from what I hear. We'll get grades closer to the draft, but I'd guess those 2 (maybe Burden) grade out as #1 WRs, but not in the Chase/Harrison tier (though of course Jefferson was not considered in that tier either and he's probably the best WR in the league).
No Chase every draft but there is a legit #1 WR or close to it in most drafts. We just have to find them.
2024: Malik Nabers, Marvin Harrison Jr., Rome Odunze (not yet but maybe)
2023: Zay Flowers (small but very impactful)
2022: Drake London, Garrett Wilson, Chris Olave
2021: JaMarr Chase himself, Jaylen Waddle, Devonta Smith
2020: CeeDee Lamb, Justin Jefferson
2019: N’Keal Harry, AJ Brown, DK Metcalf, Terry McLaurin, Deebo Samuel
2018: DJ Moore
Yeah that was the point, there is no Chase, but yes there is going to be at least one top 30-40 WR in the class in all likelihood
I'd quibble with Olave. His career might be over, his top yards in a season is 1100, 5 TDs, 87 catches. That's very good. But he's not a legit number 1. And it could be over already.
Deebo isn’t a traditional number 1 WR, but he works here for me given how much he opens up the offense.
I’m not a big Olave fan, but it’s hard to separate his performance from his QB play, which has been consistently worse than the other guys on the list for the most part (save London and Wilson who look completely different this season now that they have competent QBs throwing to them).
I’m not a big Olave fan, but it’s hard to separate his performance from his QB play, which has been consistently worse than the other guys on the list for the most part (save London and Wilson who look completely different this season now that they have competent QBs throwing to them).
I just have to wonder if the issue with the Pats' record on drafting WR's isn't about the scouting, but rather the coaching.
You could argue that in the BB-era the Pats had a great track record drafting OLinemen: Light, Koppen, Mankins, Solder, Vollmer, et al. But they also had arguably the best OLine coach in history for almost all of that time. Dante even managed to turn multiple UDFA's into solid pros: Andrews, Hochstein, Neal, et al. When Scar left, that position group fell off a cliff.
A similar argument could be made on defense, in almost every position group The Pats had a lot of successful draft picks and UDFAs. But they also had some pretty excellent coaches on that side, led of course by BB.
But there have been very few successes at WR over 20+ years from the draft: Branch, Givens, Edelman, Mitchell, but not many others. Maybe the issue is simply the WR coaches.
You could argue that in the BB-era the Pats had a great track record drafting OLinemen: Light, Koppen, Mankins, Solder, Vollmer, et al. But they also had arguably the best OLine coach in history for almost all of that time. Dante even managed to turn multiple UDFA's into solid pros: Andrews, Hochstein, Neal, et al. When Scar left, that position group fell off a cliff.
A similar argument could be made on defense, in almost every position group The Pats had a lot of successful draft picks and UDFAs. But they also had some pretty excellent coaches on that side, led of course by BB.
But there have been very few successes at WR over 20+ years from the draft: Branch, Givens, Edelman, Mitchell, but not many others. Maybe the issue is simply the WR coaches.
perhaps the coaching but the investment in WR was significantly less than other positions. They also came across a few guys (Jeremy Ross, Braxton Berrios, Brandon Tate) who had long and productive special teams careers elsewhere. Certainly Meyers is a useful player.
If they invested the same degree of draft capital in WR as they had in DB’s, they’d have had more hits for sure. It’s also harder for WR’s to make the roster as a ST guy like some of the UDFA and later round guys at other positions (especially with Slater taking up one of those gunner slots forever).
Not sure why they bothered to re-sign him to a 3 year deal if he’s going to rot on the bench
On my phone and I suck at the internet so you'll just have to believe me:
Before the game Andrew Callahan tweeted Bourne has been informed that he won't play today as the team prioritizes playing time for younger players
Yet Osborn had more snaps than Douglas and Polk. Baker only had 4 snaps. Douglas with his second lowest snap percentage of the season. Polk up from last week when he barely played but not to the levels he was previously. Boutte for the 2nd week in a row played almost every snap. Hooper played a handful more snaps. Perhaps more two TE sets,
Seems like Osborn and Hooper were the primary beneficiaries.
Seems like Osborn and Hooper were the primary beneficiaries.
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This is why BBs "we make decisions in the best interest of the team" standing line is effective because this explanation...makes no sense if you are going to run Osborn out there.
To be fair, Mayo basically said that after the game. Gave us the "best chance to win" etc...
The report was that they told Bourne he was losing snaps to younger players. No direct source or quote though (at least that I saw).
View: https://twitter.com/_AndrewCallahan/status/1855689335607378348?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1855689335607378348%7Ctwgr%5Ee91800481f7172b1d04c63bd4c2097a44ee7d537%7Ctwcon%5Es1_
So Boutte to my eyes had a decent game yesterday. There was the one throw into the wind that would have been a great catch that the DB broke up at the last minute. Do we have something here or is he just the beneficiary of the ball has to go somewhere?
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I think there's something there. He's apparently a very good blocker, which is why he's out there for twice as many snaps as other WRs. That's a good skill to have. If we can bulk up the WR room in the offseason, I imagine he'd be even better moving down in the pecking order. That said, yesterday was the first time he's had more than 3 receptions, but he does have 18 targets over the past 3 games.
For someone with a reputation of maybe a $1 talent but a $0.10 head, the fact that he executed perfectly at the end of the first half was impressive to me. No silly celebration. Jump up, run to the official, hand the ball, get lined up.
He doesn't have great size at all, but yeah, his sell early was his explosiveness and twtichiness.... unfortunately that appears to have not come back after the ankle injury.
Right now I think he feels like a guy who is an NFL roster player, but probably should never be more than a rotational 3rd WR. His size isn't great, he doesn't get great separation or YAC. But he works hard and he's significantly improved his route running, he blocks hard, he's shown much better hands than in college.