Pats Draft Rd.2/38: DI Christian Barmore

JM3

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But the purpose of a trade chart is to give you a rough gauge of the market value of draft picks. A chart that doesn’t reflect real-world trade serves no purpose.

I suspect you’re correct that trading down is more often shrewd than trading up is, but if you believe that, it’s an adjustment you make over the top, not something that should be baked into a chart (because there’s no objective way to quantify what that adjustment “should” be).
But I'm not making NFL trades. I'm evaluating trades that have been made to see if I like them, & especially when they involve players & multiple picks, like the Orlando Brown trade, I value having the chart that I think is more accurate.

If I worked in an NFL front office, I would use the hell out of those charts when negotiating trade downs. But I don't really see what purpose that serves me as a fan?

Like I said, considering the roster depth & the fact that Barmore slid down as far as he did, I'm totally fine with the trade, but that has nothing to do with whether Jimmy Johnson thought it was a good trade in 1989.
 

mauf

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But I'm not making NFL trades. I'm evaluating trades that have been made to see if I like them, & especially when they involve players & multiple picks, like the Orlando Brown trade, I value having the chart that I think is more accurate.

If I worked in an NFL front office, I would use the hell out of those charts when negotiating trade downs. But I don't really see what purpose that serves me as a fan?

Like I said, considering the roster depth & the fact that Barmore slid down as far as he did, I'm totally fine with the trade, but that has nothing to do with whether Jimmy Johnson thought it was a good trade in 1989.
Totally agree that we’re just fans evaluating trades. I’m not sure a trade chart has a bigger role to play in this case than telling you that conventional wisdom would say BB slightly overpaid here. Which doesn’t mean you have to hate the deal (I don’t); it’s just one data point.

I don’t see the point of a chart that would tell you that nearly every pick swap favors the team trading down.
 

JM3

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Totally agree that we’re just fans evaluating trades. I’m not sure a trade chart has a bigger role to play in this case than telling you that conventional wisdom would say BB slightly overpaid here. Which doesn’t mean you have to hate the deal (I don’t); it’s just one data point.

I don’t see the point of a chart that would tell you that nearly every pick swap favors the team trading down.
Because it values picks based on historical value of the actual picks, so for example I think it will tell me much more reliably what a team gives up when they give up 2 4th round picks for something.

So knowing how much I believe a team actually overpaid value-wise tells me much more about whether the mitigating factors that might make a trade not an overpay are enough to overcome the level of the overpay.

A system that tells me every trade is fair value when some are better or worse than others in terms of expexted return, tells me nothing.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't care what teams do - I care what they should do & what the value of what they do is.

There is a reason BB has been so wildly successful trading back over the years & it's because teams overvalue trading up because they overestimate their ability to draft well.

Just because teams overpay to do it, doesn't mean they should - with certain exceptions.
Ok, but that's not really what a trade chart is for, the charts generally are telling you if you overpayed market price for the picks, not what expected value of the players at those picks are. Though generally I don't think the latter has much value because pick value especially on late picks is going to be team dependent since a team like the Patriots simply is not going to roster all these picks, so the value added for say 197 is probably 0 because he's less valuable than a player already under contract.

To me you aren't measuring if you overpaid, because whether you over or underpay for a thing has to do with it's market value and how you paid relative to that. The question of whether you gained or lost "average outcome potential value" is different. You are I guess, estimating whether the trade is more or less likely to bring greater long term value to the team... but that isn't really an answer to over or under-paying, and honestly I don't think it's even really accurate because it ignores to some extent that value spread across 3 rosters spots is inherently less valuable than the same value spread across 2 roster spots because there is an essentially endless supply of replacement (or better) value players to be had for league minimum.
 

JM3

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Ok, but that's not really what a trade chart is for, the charts generally are telling you if you overpayed market price for the picks, not what expected value of the players at those picks are. Though generally I don't think the latter has much value because pick value especially on late picks is going to be team dependent since a team like the Patriots simply is not going to roster all these picks, so the value added for say 197 is probably 0 because he's less valuable than a player already under contract.

To me you aren't measuring if you overpaid, because whether you over or underpay for a thing has to do with it's market value and how you paid relative to that. The question of whether you gained or lost "average outcome potential value" is different. You are I guess, estimating whether the trade is more or less likely to bring greater long term value to the team... but that isn't really an answer to over or under-paying, and honestly I don't think it's even really accurate because it ignores to some extent that value spread across 3 rosters spots is inherently less valuable than the same value spread across 2 roster spots because there is an essentially endless supply of replacement (or better) value players to be had for league minimum.
The "market value" of a pick isn't able to be established by any trade chart because there are 800 factors that go into that, too. Primarily, the actual market for any given pick based on who is available & how many people want that player who is available & how badly they want them.

The spread of value theory isn't without merit, but I believe the methodology doesn't give any credit for acquiring replacement level players, & the real value in any pick is the % chance of acquiring an actual good player with it. The more darts theory.

It's the chart Barnwell uses & I think it makes sense as long as you don't actually expect trades to go that way.
 

Cellar-Door

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The "market value" of a pick isn't able to be established by any trade chart because there are 800 factors that go into that, too. Primarily, the actual market for any given pick based on who is available & how many people want that player who is available & how badly they want them.

The spread of value theory isn't without merit, but I believe the methodology doesn't give any credit for acquiring replacement level players, & the real value in any pick is the % chance of acquiring an actual good player with it. The more darts theory.

It's the chart Barnwell uses & I think it makes sense as long as you don't actually expect trades to go that way.
I can see the value in using it for some things. I just think it isn't measuring what most people think of in terms of overpay vs. underpay. Yes you can't exactly calculate market value, but having a shorthand for approximately how the league generally values picks with a few exceptions (QBs mostly) is pretty valuable, because it can let you know.... did this team give up more than teams usually would for that type of move, which is generally what fans are interested in. Using projected value may be interesting in evaluating likelihood the trade is won, but most people when they ask if a team overpaid aren't really looking for "yes, just like every trade up ever" as the answer.
 

JM3

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I can see the value in using it for some things. I just think it isn't measuring what most people think of in terms of overpay vs. underpay. Yes you can't exactly calculate market value, but having a shorthand for approximately how the league generally values picks with a few exceptions (QBs mostly) is pretty valuable, because it can let you know.... did this team give up more than teams usually would for that type of move, which is generally what fans are interested in. Using projected value may be interesting in evaluating likelihood the trade is won, but most people when they ask if a team overpaid aren't really looking for "yes, just like every trade up ever" as the answer.
I don't think we really much disagree. & if I ever give that kind of analysis, feel free to berate me for it.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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You see this as a boom-bust pick? I see Barmore as a guy who’s very likely to be a serviceable DT but unlikely to be special.

But I’m hardly an expert, and the relatively aggressive trade-up suggests BB’s view is closer than mine.
I've seen a few sources that say he has pro-bowl, elite talent potential.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Draft charts aren’t relevant when you are trading up for a specific player. Especially one who was in many people’s Top-20. Is the value any different if BB traded up to 19 for Barnwell? What if he waited and moved up to 41 to select him? There is no real world difference as we are giving up the identical assets for the same player.

Anyway, is Alabama the new Rutgers? There is something to BB trusting certain people who know these players better than anyone else.
 

JimD

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Bedard hinting at red flags which caused Barmore's draft stock to drop:

What I heard was interesting. And I am just passing on the information I received before he landed on the Patriots — there was no anti-New England bias.

“Yeah, we looked hard at him, could use a player like him … Barmore was not for us,” said one team.

What was the issue? I’m not going to divulge specific information to protect my sources and their relationships, but it boils down to this: there are a lot of questions about Barmore’s intelligence and how it might manifest itself once he’s out of the more controlling collegiate environment and has more freedom.

The team that had the late second-round grade on Barmore said that was the earliest they would have been comfortable with the risk.

“Alabama barely held him together,” said an NFC scout. “As a pro, he’s a real wild-card.”

I asked another scout if he had any specifics, and he said that just general accountability — getting to practice and class — was a struggle for him and Barmore has to be in a very tightly controlled environment, like Alabama has, to succeed. Barmore also was in a very heavy rotation — most players with his talent play upwards of 70 percent of snaps. His playing time just kept dropping to about a 50-50 split. That’s very unusual and sent scouts digging for answers.

“I think he’s going to be a big-time bust,” said one scout, again, before the Patriots picked him.
I dunno ... of course there's a risk with a young player getting out of the college environment and out into the real world with newfound riches, but I would also think that the Patriots are the closest thing to a 'very tightly controlled environment' as you're going to find in the NFL, at least as far as the working environment is concerned. Hopefully some of the older players can be a good influence on him as he enters the league.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Draft charts aren’t relevant when you are trading up for a specific player. Especially one who was in many people’s Top-20. Is the value any different if BB traded up to 19 for Barnwell? What if he waited and moved up to 41 to select him? There is no real world difference as we are giving up the identical assets for the same player.

Anyway, is Alabama the new Rutgers? There is something to BB trusting certain people who know these players better than anyone else.
I think draft charts are somewhat relevant, in the sense that if you are always trading up for players who don't work out, that's not good.
Bedard hinting at red flags which caused Barmore's draft stock to drop:

I dunno ... of course there's a risk with a young player getting out of the college environment and out into the real world with newfound riches, but I would also think that the Patriots are the closest thing to a 'very tightly controlled environment' as you're going to find in the NFL, at least as far as the working environment is concerned. Hopefully some of the older players can be a good influence on him as he enters the league.
Is he "hinting" at red flags or SCREAMING about them?

I'll admit, this pick makes me nervous. Gave up a lot of value to move up and get a guy with question marks. And I feel like overly focusing on individual schools seems like a strategy that has failed the Patriots in the past. I would not be shocked if this is ultimately B throwing away a second and 2 fourths for another Damion Easley type bust.
 

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Given the current team, seems like the Pats are better taking a 25% chance of a top performer / 75% chance of a bust than playing it safe for a marginal improvement. Sometimes they become Gronk. Sometimes they become Easley. Most of the time they become Easley, but isn’t it worth it for the occasional home run?
 

tims4wins

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BB on trade value. Pertaining to the upthread discussion. Great answer. Bolder emphasis is mine.

Q. As it pertains to tomorrow with the smaller class, is there any sense that, from your perspective, that picks this year might be slightly undervalued, given teams are working from smaller boards with fewer players that played less football and signed with agents and might be looking to trade into the future? Do you get any of that sense from other teams, given just the unusual draft that we have here?
BB: I think that's a reasonable hypothesis. I would say that the prices on the trades have been, I think, a little higher than normal. Certainly at the end of the third round those trades are pretty high. There weren't a lot of trades in the first round, but I thought those were pretty high. So I don't know if there's really a lot of evidence to back that up. That's something you could look at. But just my general impressions was what teams were paying to move up pretty much at the start of the second round and then in the latter -- well, maybe the whole third round, that it seemed like the trade, the teams that were moving back were doing pretty well on those trades. So when you -- you can look at charts and do whatever you want, but in the end, it's a transaction between two clubs and if it's an auction, if there are two or three teams bidding for the pick, then the team that moves back is selling it for whatever they can get for it. It doesn't really matter what anything says. So, and that's kind of what the way it seemed to me. How that will go tomorrow, I don't know. You could be right. I think the teams that traded into next year did it because there was a lot of value. The Giants moving into next year in the first round, the second round pick this year. So I think teams that were able to get those picks, I'm sure, obviously, they were happy with the trade or they wouldn't have made them. But at the same time, teams were willing to give up picks in next year's draft to move up, probably because they didn't have enough resources in this year's draft to meet the price that it was going to cost them to move. So, you know, that's about the way I saw it. I don't know. So we'll see what happens tomorrow. I don't really know how that's going to go. The prices may continue to be high or the prices might fall in relative terms. I think generally speaking they're going to be in kind of a normal range but they could either be a little above the normal or a little below the normal.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Given the current team, seems like the Pats are better taking a 25% chance of a top performer / 75% chance of a bust than playing it safe for a marginal improvement. Sometimes they become Gronk. Sometimes they become Easley. Most of the time they become Easley, but isn’t it worth it for the occasional home run?
Maybe? The counterargument would be that the Patriots terrible drafting in recent years is what has left them so shorthanded that they needed a free agency splurge to rebuild this year. And they were lucky to be in a position to do that as one of only a few teams with a lot of cap space. In a couple of years they won't have that luxury and if they haven't restocked via the draft they will be screwed.

Maybe BB finally sees that the end is near for him and wants to maximize his chances in the short term?
 

moondog80

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Given the current team, seems like the Pats are better taking a 25% chance of a top performer / 75% chance of a bust than playing it safe for a marginal improvement. Sometimes they become Gronk. Sometimes they become Easley. Most of the time they become Easley, but isn’t it worth it for the occasional home run?

Different thread (and sport), but for everyone who is still mad the Celts drafted Olynyk instead of Giannis: this is what drafting Giannis looks like on draft night.

As for this specific situation, what I can say other than In Bill We Trust? I'm sure he knows about all the red flags, he must have a reason for being comfortable with giving up assets to get him. The relationship with Saban is a little reassuring, right? Maybe the kid just isn't cut out for college and will do better in a football-only environment.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Different thread (and sport), but for everyone who is still mad the Celts drafted Olynyk instead of Giannis: this is what drafting Giannis looks like on draft night.
In one sense - the boom/bust potential.

In a different sense - character red flags - that is not at all true.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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In one sense - the boom/bust potential.

In a different sense - character red flags - that is not at all true.
The thing is, you can look at numbers & production and still come up with the wrong prediction.

Take a look at one take on Chandler Jones' draft profile. He has the former Patriot behind Jake Bequette & no higher than a 3rd round grade:

View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1133125-nfl-draft-2012-why-chandler-jones-has-no-place-in-first-round-conversation


And character issues turn out to be false a fair share of the time, it seems.
 
Feb 19, 2015
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Given the current team, seems like the Pats are better taking a 25% chance of a top performer / 75% chance of a bust than playing it safe for a marginal improvement. Sometimes they become Gronk. Sometimes they become Easley. Most of the time they become Easley, but isn’t it worth it for the occasional home run?
I would have much rather they made the same move up and selected Jenkins.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Bedard hinting at red flags which caused Barmore's draft stock to drop:



I dunno ... of course there's a risk with a young player getting out of the college environment and out into the real world with newfound riches, but I would also think that the Patriots are the closest thing to a 'very tightly controlled environment' as you're going to find in the NFL, at least as far as the working environment is concerned. Hopefully some of the older players can be a good influence on him as he enters the league.
I dont disagree with your hypothesis about the Patriots environment, but if Hernandez can be an angel dust smoking murderer with the Pat's, its probably fair to say NFL players are largely in charge of their own fate once they get to the NFL regardless of the team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think draft charts are somewhat relevant, in the sense that if you are always trading up for players who don't work out, that's not good.
Is he "hinting" at red flags or SCREAMING about them?

I'll admit, this pick makes me nervous. Gave up a lot of value to move up and get a guy with question marks. And I feel like overly focusing on individual schools seems like a strategy that has failed the Patriots in the past. I would not be shocked if this is ultimately B throwing away a second and 2 fourths for another Damion Easley type bust.
The comfort that I’m gaining is that none of these scouts or GM’s know the inner workings of Christian Bermore any better than Nick Saban who of course is ultra-close to Belichick ......or at least I’m trying to convince myself of this.

Bedard hinting at red flags which caused Barmore's draft stock to drop:



I dunno ... of course there's a risk with a young player getting out of the college environment and out into the real world with newfound riches, but I would also think that the Patriots are the closest thing to a 'very tightly controlled environment' as you're going to find in the NFL, at least as far as the working environment is concerned. Hopefully some of the older players can be a good influence on him as he enters the league.
I’ve spent quite a bit of time with a recent former NFL player who was adopted by a family I am close with. He was drafted by the
Raiders and spent time on 4-5 different NFL rosters. He shared some tidbits rather emphatically.

* You have coaches but you are on your own.

* It’s a cutthroat business and everyone is after your spot.

* Was told by an older veteran as a rookie that you won’t find a true friend in this locker room. It’s you againat the NFL world.

* The trainers/coaches aren’t here to help you they are here to get you on the field and produce at all costs.

* (and a fun one)....Each team has a fine for losing your playbook. The Raiders fine was $10k. The year before he was there one guy lost his playbook and was actively trying to steal them from his teammates to cover it up.
 
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simplyeric

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I dont disagree with your hypothesis about the Patriots environment, but if Hernandez can be an angel dust smoking murderer with the Pat's, its probably fair to say NFL players are largely in charge of their own fate once they get to the NFL regardless of the team.
Or maybe there’s a spectrum of behaviors, in between ‘might have a some work ethic issues’ and ‘is a murderer’.
It’s hard to correct for someone who shows up at practice and works hard but on his own time is murderjng people, compared to someone who might be liable to show up late or not work hard. Guy like that won’t play. He won’t be in the games if he’s showing up late or not working. Maybe that’s a kick he needs.
 

BuellMiller

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I think draft charts are somewhat relevant, in the sense that if you are always trading up for players who don't work out, that's not good.
Is he "hinting" at red flags or SCREAMING about them?

I'll admit, this pick makes me nervous. Gave up a lot of value to move up and get a guy with question marks. And I feel like overly focusing on individual schools seems like a strategy that has failed the Patriots in the past. I would not be shocked if this is ultimately B throwing away a second and 2 fourths for another Damion Easley type bust.
Was he really a bust, though? 160 HR and 20 bWAR out of a middle infielder is solid.
 

Mystic Merlin

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I don’t see the Easley comparison at all. They play on the IDL, but Barmore is much bigger, stronger and can play 1 to 5 technique. And Easley’s red flag was his knee, Barmore’s is his inexperience/inconsistency prior to the end of this past season.

If Barmore had more high quality tape he goes in the top 15. Any potential diamond you try to mine at a key position as you get past the top handful of picks is gonna have warts that put them there.

Outside of specialists and interior OL, every pick past the top 20 or so makes me nervous.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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I can’t believe there’s anyone questioning giving up 2 fourth round picks to get the consensus top DT in the draft. 4th round picks are fungible at best.
 

JohnnyTheBone

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Plus the Pats had 10 picks. 10 rookies are NOT making this team.
That's still not a good reason to give away value. Trade into next year, then, if you have too many picks. I'd feel better if one of the 4ths was a 5th or 6th, but In Bill I Trust.

According to the Stuart chart, which is my favorite, they gave up 17.4 points of value (equivalent to the 15th pick), for a pick with 11.4 points of value.

Buuuuut I still think it's fine & don't mind it.
 
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JimD

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I’ve spent quite a bit of time with a recent former NFL player who was adopted by a family I am close with. He was drafted by the
Raiders and spent time on 4-5 different NFL rosters. He shared some tidbits rather emphatically.

* You have coaches but you are on your own.

* It’s a cutthroat business and everyone is after your spot.

* Was told by an older veteran as a rookie that you won’t find a true friend in this locker room. It’s you againat the NFL world.

* The trainers/coaches aren’t here to help you they are here to get you on the field and produce at all costs.

* (and a fun one)....Each team has a fine for losing your playbook. The Raiders fine was $10k. The year before he was there one guy lost his playbook and was actively trying to steal them from his teammates to cover it up.
Hopefully, this is where Belichick's philosophy of focusing on character issues where possible (i.e., the focus in team captains, for example) gives the Patriots an advantage when a young player like Barmore comes in.
 

Mystic Merlin

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That's still not a good reason to give away value. Trade into next year, then, if you have too many picks. I'd feel better if one of the 4ths was a 5th or 6th, but In Bill I Trust.
Bill made the point in his presser last night that the cost of trading up was higher than in past years, which may be due to the fact that teams have less confidence in players farther down on their draft boards than is typical as a result of having less information on them.

The talent curve is almost certainly not linear to the Pats or other teams round to round, too.
 

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The prices may continue to be high or the prices might fall in relative terms. I think generally speaking they're going to be in kind of a normal range but they could either be a little above the normal or a little below the normal.
Weatherman: It might rain. It might not. It might be cold, but it might also be hot.

Bill is always in midseason form.


Maybe? The counterargument would be that the Patriots terrible drafting in recent years is what has left them so shorthanded that they needed a free agency splurge to rebuild this year. And they were lucky to be in a position to do that as one of only a few teams with a lot of cap space. In a couple of years they won't have that luxury and if they haven't restocked via the draft they will be screwed.

Maybe BB finally sees that the end is near for him and wants to maximize his chances in the short term?
Why is it "lucky" how they managed the cap? Did they somehow fall into shit and come out smelling like roses? Are the cost-controlled, productive players on this roster an accident?

They bit the bullet last year and came into this offseason with space and picks galore. Seems more like good management than good luck.
 

Granite Sox

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What about Harris?
Or Kevin Lee, for God's sake!

edit: re the red flag stuff... through time, Belichick has communicated through words and actions that the 2nd round is where he takes the biggest risks on players. The litany of DBs and WRs in this round that have busted is long and notorious. For a DL example, Ron Brace (RIP). My total homer speculation/guess is that although it's a dog-eat-dog business in the NFL, the other Bama Pats could help create a subculture on the team that will support Barmore's behavior. Additionally, given that he hasn't been playing football that long, and played onl 25% of snaps in 2019 and around 50% this past season, I think there is room for growth with technique and endurance as well as maturity. The talent seems to be there, but the risk is also significant. Good thing Belichick has brought in multiple interior DLs to augment the draft and returnees (Guy, Cowart, etc.)
 
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OurF'ingCity

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Seems more like good management than good luck.
100% agree with this. This off-season more than any other I can recall you can see a specific grand strategy at work. Which is basically that the Pats were aware that (a) they were going to have a shitton of cap room this year and (b) there was less information than ever on draft prospects.

So the Pats went big on free agents (knowing that the cap is likely to rise significantly in future years such that what now might look like “overpays”may not appear to be such in a year or two) and have been ok consolidating draft picks to focus on a smaller number of guys that may have fallen purely because other teams didn’t feel there was enough information/certainty on them but in other years might have gone higher.

It seems like the perfect approach given their situation and I echo other posters who say that BB and his team have nailed this off-season (even if the results don’t pan out it’s hard to fault any of these moves at the time they’re made except for potential quibbles like whether they should have targeted Agholor vs. some other WR).
 
Feb 19, 2015
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Weatherman: It might rain. It might not. It might be cold, but it might also be hot.

Bill is always in midseason form.




Why is it "lucky" how they managed the cap? Did they somehow fall into shit and come out smelling like roses? Are the cost-controlled, productive players on this roster an accident?

They bit the bullet last year and came into this offseason with space and picks galore. Seems more like good management than good luck.
As I understand things, the timing was lucky because they had a lot of cap space in a year when the cap went down. This resulted in less competition for available free agents, because in a normal year a lot more teams would have had at least some space available.
 

Mystic Merlin

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The Pats deserve credit for cleaning up their cap situation such that they could be aggressive in FA. They also got lucky in that the cap went down, thus reducing competition for FA and bringing players like Henry and Smith to the market that arguably could have been franchised or re-signed by their incumbent teams with a cap of 210M or so.
 

lexrageorge

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This is the part of the thread where we need to remember that the washout rate for 2nd rounders is higher than many may expect. Take a look at the 2016 2nd round (yes, the one where Cyrus Jones was picked at the end of the round). Only slightly more than half are full time starters at this point in their careers. Taking the big swing in the 2nd round in the hopes of landing a Chris Jones is not the worst strategy.
 

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The Pats deserve credit for cleaning up their cap situation such that they could be aggressive in FA. They also got lucky in that the cap went down, thus reducing competition for FA and bringing players like Henry and Smith to the market that arguably could have been franchised or re-signed by their incumbent teams with a cap of 210M or so.
I think you can reasonably give them credit for cap management relative to an impending cap decrease since around mid-summer 2020, when it was probably clear to most that revenues were going to be way down. Really ever since tagging Thuney, they were pretty circumspect in their cap management.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think you can reasonably give them credit for cap management relative to an impending cap decrease since around mid-summer 2020, when it was probably clear to most that revenues were going to be way down. Really ever since tagging Thuney, they were pretty circumspect in their cap management.
Exactly.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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So, what did Saban say to convince BB he was worth a pick? Nothing? Is BB fully aware the guy is a donkey, but is crossing his fingers itll work?

BB and Saban are really close. I'd be shocked if Saban told BB, "hes good, but I have no idea if you can reel him in"...and BB traded up for him.

I also dont think Saban would betray their relationship. Of course he wants his guys drafted, but at this stage of his career, I cant imagine hed do it at the expense of his friendship with BB.

So, what was the conversation? Did Saban downplay the personality issues?
 

wonderland

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So, what did Saban say to convince BB he was worth a pick? Nothing? Is BB fully aware the guy is a donkey, but is crossing his fingers itll work?

BB and Saban are really close. I'd be shocked if Saban told BB, "hes good, but I have no idea if you can reel him in"...and BB traded up for him.

I also dont think Saban would betray their relationship. Of course he wants his guys drafted, but at this stage of his career, I cant imagine hed do it at the expense of his friendship with BB.

So, what was the conversation? Did Saban downplay the personality issues?
Why can’t it be as simple as Saban told Belichick the pros and cons and Belichick decided a second round pick was worth the risk?
 

bakahump

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At this point I am not even sure that Saban Cares THAT much about players being drafted. Its a cold blooded business and Nick got his.

For a Friend Like BB, I am sure he is going to give you some "Tea" as we call it in our house. For professional courtesy to Matt Nagy I am sure he gives you some positive bullets if he likes the kid. If he doesnt maybe he even says that, but I doubt its very in depth. It is what it is man.

Univ of Pitt Sure. As the head coach it might give you a bit more cache recruiting if you can say I had 3 guys drafted last year. Or I had a 2nd round DL drafted. So Maybe he plays up a guy who is "borderline" or has some questionable traits. Maybe that helps a resume that has a 26-14 record.

But Is any multi star recruit NOT going to Bama because Barmore didnt go till round 3 in an epic slide? Or because Mac Jones doesnt get picked until pick 56 in an epic slide? All because Saban says "Yea good College players Bill, but not sure they can hack the NFL". Is Bama alumni or administration really disappointed that despite the National Championships they just have had enough first rounders lately.

SO him upselling a Player especially to a "pal"?
I dont buy it. IF he says something to someone who is a Friend you can bank that its his best opinion and not platitudes.

That opinion can certainly be wrong. And Bill (or Matt Nagy) may think the risk/reward is worth it. But its an honest assessment.
 

Shelterdog

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Why can’t it be as simple as Saban told Belichick the pros and cons and Belichick decided a second round pick was worth the risk?
Doesn’t that seem right? Early second round is about right for “very talented DT with a dubious work ethic.” Athletic DT tackles get taken top ten if they have a great work ethic and no character concerns
 

lexrageorge

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The Pats had Barmore ranked before the draft began. And any of the conversations between Belichick and Saban happened long before draft day. I don't know if Belichick has a special "in" with Saban; however, Belichick is probably more comfortable asking certain questions and likely trusts he is getting the truth from Saban.

Saban is probably never going to directly say "Bill, don't draft this guy", or "Bill, ignore the rumors about his work ethic". But Saban probably told him the details of what happened with Barmore and how he's handled them. And it was enough information for Bill to take the risk to draft a guy that the team had ranked much higher than 38th despite the "character concerns".

The bust rate on 2nd rounders is pretty high, and the team had more picks than roster spots, so it made a lot of sense to swing for the fences with this pick. Maybe when Saban writes his book in retirement we find out that the "character concerns" were due to the fact that Barmore missed a single team meeting due to a last minute schedule change that he forgot to write down.
 

Captaincoop

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On BSJ today, there's a recap of Warren Sapp's workout with Barmore in Florida before the draft. Sapp wouldn't be my number one most trusted source on anything, but the story was not good.

Cook followed up Sapp’s statement with a question, does Barmore’s issue lie in the fact that he wasn’t willing to take his directions or that he couldn’t follow the directions? Sapp responded bluntly.
“Both,” Sapp said. “If I tell you to swing your left arm and you move your right, I’ve got a real issue – and that’s just one example. Trust me. For me to throw my visor and throw my $300 glasses, I’m telling you. I’m like, ‘Is there something wrong with me?’”
 

LaszloKovacks

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Bedard mentioned on his podcast that the damaging intel he heard about Barmore would make national headlines and he didn't want to do that to the kid. I've heard several writers mention "intelligence in and out of the locker room" being a concern. It's an odd, specific phrasing I've heard multiple times.
 

BigSoxFan

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Bedard mentioned on his podcast that the damaging intel he heard about Barmore would make national headlines and he didn't want to do that to the kid. I've heard several writers mention "intelligence in and out of the locker room" being a concern. It's an odd, specific phrasing I've heard multiple times.
Good news is that even if those limitations are real, he was still able to be productive at Bama. Will definitely be interesting to watch unfold though.
 
Jan 30, 2017
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National headlines that Barmore may not be that bright? Greg’s really smitten with his own intel, huh?

I started to get a little worried before remembering all of the different characters and personalities to come and go over the past 20+ years.

I don’t think BB made this pick sight unseen and I don’t think they don’t already have a plan/previous experience they can draw from to get this kid coached up an in position to succeed.