Pats OTA Notes & Discussion

[Van Everyman]

I've never completely bought into the narrative that we "went around the coaching staff". I know it was played up in the media when it was noted that he talked to his former coaches at Alabama, but it's not uncommon for NFL players to stay in touch with their old coaches from time to time and pick their brains. The reporting was never precise enough or well sourced enough to make a conclusion as to whether Mac was simply "picking the brains" of his former coaches, or whether he was truly complaining to his old coaches and subsequently making those complaints public in an attempt to undermine Patricia/Judge. Or whether the entire story was planted by someone in locker room or coaching staff that simply hated Mac Jones.

It may be that Mac is nothing more than an entitled crybaby who will be nothing more than a "footnote in the NFL". But it's also true that the coaching staff royally fucked up big time by not getting out a goal line play call in time, not once but IIRC on several occasions. I remember Charlie Weiss talking on the radio once (and this was before last season even started) where he mentioned that as an offensive coordinate, you not only have to have the current play ready, you need to already be preparing for the subsequent play call as well because there is just not enough time otherwise. The fact that the team consistently failed at doing so means that there were serious problems that had nothing to do Mac Jones.

Assuming the offense goes back to roughly what they were in 2021--diversified and efficient if not explosive--I would hope all the drama about Mac dies down a little. It's hard to believe Mac was ever drafted to be the next Mahomes or whatever -- if I had to guess, Bill thought he could zag with an efficient game manager who makes good decisions a deep, diversified attack just as the league was going all in on "playmakers."

If Mac can run a top-10 offense, there's no reason to believe this team can't compete, even in a tough division. The problem last year against teams like the Bills wasn't the defense -- they actually kind of slowed them down. The problem was that the offense couldn't stay on the field and the D got tired. If nothing else, that should be addressed this year and the OTAs at least suggest things are on track so far.

 

[lexrageorge]

Personally, I'm encouraged by what I'm hearing from OTAs. I'm getting more and more excited about this upcoming season, though I don't want it to get here too fast. I want to enjoy the summer first.

Assuming the offense goes back to roughly what they were in 2021--diversified and efficient if not explosive--I would hope all the drama about Mac dies down a little. It's hard to believe Mac was ever drafted to be the next Mahomes or whatever -- if I had to guess, Bill thought he could zag with an efficient game manager who makes good decisions a deep, diversified attack just as the league was going all in on "playmakers."

If Mac can run a top-10 offense, there's no reason to believe this team can't compete, even in a tough division. The problem last year against teams like the Bills wasn't the defense -- they actually kind of slowed them down. The problem was that the offense couldn't stay on the field and the D got tired. If nothing else, that should be addressed this year and the OTAs at least suggest things are on track so far.

It is worth taking a look at the 2022 Offense Thread during the time of OTA's and minicamp. There was some optimistic takes back then as well, although a lot of media attention was focused on who was calling the plays. There was some drama around Wynn (good riddance!). And Tre Nixon was one of the standout WR's during OTA's.

 

[tims4wins]

It is worth taking a look at the 2022 Offense Thread during the time of OTA's and minicamp. There was some optimistic takes back then as well, although a lot of media attention was focused on who was calling the plays. There was some drama around Wynn (good riddance!). And Tre Nixon was one of the standout WR's during OTA's.

To me the major difference is that this year we are not necessarily looking for reasons to be optimistic whereas last year we were.

 

[DJnVa]

To me the major difference is that this year we are not necessarily looking for reasons to be optimistic whereas last year we were.

I think there was general excitement/curiosity about potentially a new offense being installed.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

This isn't about O'Brien being the football equivalent of John Wooden. It's about not having Forrest Gump and Jacques Clouseau running a pro offense into the field turf. They could replace the QB with you this year, and it would probably be an improvement over the abject ineptitude of last season.

Forrest Gump was actually amazing at everything he did, did you even watch the movie?

 

[Bowser]

Forrest Gump = Alabama guy.

 

[BaseballJones]

Assuming the offense goes back to roughly what they were in 2021--diversified and efficient if not explosive--I would hope all the drama about Mac dies down a little. It's hard to believe Mac was ever drafted to be the next Mahomes or whatever -- if I had to guess, Bill thought he could zag with an efficient game manager who makes good decisions a deep, diversified attack just as the league was going all in on "playmakers."

If Mac can run a top-10 offense, there's no reason to believe this team can't compete, even in a tough division. The problem last year against teams like the Bills wasn't the defense -- they actually kind of slowed them down. The problem was that the offense couldn't stay on the field and the D got tired. If nothing else, that should be addressed this year and the OTAs at least suggest things are on track so far.

It seems like a reasonable estimate to think the Pats will have a top 10 defense. If the Pats have a top 10 offense as well, unless they get sunk by crappy special teams play, that should give them a great chance to make the playoffs and win like 10-11 games.

 

[rodderick]

I mean this with no animosity at all, but has there been a single Patriots move or bit of news you've liked since Brady left? More to the point--has there been any Pats news that you've seen other folks react positively too that didn't make you feel the need to counter their take?

Loved the Gonzalez pick, loved most of their FA acquisitions in 2021, loved that they went with Mac immediately in 2021 without giving the Cam Newton experiment another year, loved that they immediately announced Patricia and Judge wouldn't be in charge of the offense for 2023 and got a real OC right away, early in the process. I don't think Bill O'Brien is this amazing offensive mind that will make more difference for this team than prime Tom Brady would, but maybe that's crazy. I must have missed all the reasons to be super excited and complimentary of what has been a middling at best operation in the timeframe you established, but you're obviously free to grab the pompoms.

 

[Jimbodandy]

The fact he went around the coaching staff is a really bad look too. I get why he did it. There’s just some things you don’t do as a pro and this organization has been better than that. All his whining and crying did was make the separation wider. Complaining in the fashion he did was far from productive. Or effective. Hoping he’s learned a lot from last year. Hope the whole team has

If my body and mind were on the line every week and my teammates didn't know where to be on the field due to a functionally inept coaching staff, I'd sacrifice baby seals to Satan. Making a few phone calls to actual coaches isn't exactly banging the nanny.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

If my body and mind were on the line every week and my teammates didn't know where to be on the field due to a functionally inept coaching staff, I'd sacrifice baby seals to Satan. Making a few phone calls to actual coaches isn't exactly banging the nanny.

Totally get it and agree. It’s just not how things are done here though. My overall point is he looked poor on and off the field last year. I think Mac can bounce back. I was fully behind him in 21. My biggest concern is the oline. We brought some pieces in but none that really stand out. The kid was good with some protection.

 

[Nator]

Forrest Gump = Alabama guy.

This guy?

 

[Eddie Jurak]

That's funny, I think this fanbase and NE media have done nothing but elevate Bill O'Brien to god's gift to coaching and the Patriots' ultimate savior since the move was announced. Never seen an OC change received with such hype, it's like he means more to the team than Belichick judging by fan reaction.

But it is like Joe Biden says: "Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative."

I think our offensive coaching last year was a train wreck. Even if Bill O'Brien is merely an above average OC, someone whould would be a step down from Josh McDaniels, that is still a major upgrade.

 

[Jimbodandy]

But it is like Joe Biden says: "Don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative."

I think our offensive coaching last year was a train wreck. Even if Bill O'Brien is merely an above average OC, someone whould would be a step down from Josh McDaniels, that is still a major upgrade.

I think that pretty much everyone agrees with the bolded. Pretty much.

There are two reasons not to be excited by the upgrade to BoB:
1. Someone wanted a more cutting-edge, innovative offensive mind. I get this POV completely. But in rebuttal, it may not even be a good idea to go from Flintstones to Jetsons overnight.
2. The "you can't win with Mac Jones at QB" people, who think that more or less anything done on offense that isn't replacing Mac is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

No posters have made an argument that Patricia and Judge were even competent, let alone good. Anyone who just has a basic understanding of the job is an upgrade.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Kendrick Bourne: Change is good. He's happy in camp. Blames himself for issues last year.

https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/2023/06/former-oregon-prep-star-kendrick-bourne-expecting-a-bounce-back-season-with-the-new-england-patriots.html

 

[54thMA]

No posters have made an argument that Patricia and Judge were even competent, let alone good. Anyone who just has a basic understanding of the job is an upgrade.

The further away we get from the 2022 season, the clearer it becomes that saddling a 2nd year QB with Patricia and Judge was nothing short of coaching malpractice.

No clue how Belichick ever came to the conclusion that doing so was a good idea.

It was a terrible decision that impacted his ability to improve/progress as an NFL quarterback.

 

[ragnarok725]

Loved the Gonzalez pick, loved most of their FA acquisitions in 2021, loved that they went with Mac immediately in 2021 without giving the Cam Newton experiment another year, loved that they immediately announced Patricia and Judge wouldn't be in charge of the offense for 2023 and got a real OC right away, early in the process. I don't think Bill O'Brien is this amazing offensive mind that will make more difference for this team than prime Tom Brady would, but maybe that's crazy. I must have missed all the reasons to be super excited and complimentary of what has been a middling at best operation in the timeframe you established, but you're obviously free to grab the pompoms.

I agree that these are the things I’ve liked that the Pats have done and not a lot else. I thought the two big TE signings would be better too.

I also think the OC stuff is way overblown. I think Mac was a bigger part of the problem than fans want to admit because it means we’re further from relevance, and it’s easier to shit on Patricia and Judge. They were awful but Mac just made terrible execution plays a ton. I wanted another QB in free agency or the draft because I think they’re wasting their time with Mac. But we’ll see if that’s right this year. Hopefully I’m surprised.

I think that pretty much everyone agrees with the bolded. Pretty much.

There are two reasons not to be excited by the upgrade to BoB:
1. Someone wanted a more cutting-edge, innovative offensive mind. I get this POV completely. But in rebuttal, it may not even be a good idea to go from Flintstones to Jetsons overnight.
2. The "you can't win with Mac Jones at QB" people, who think that more or less anything done on offense that isn't replacing Mac is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

No posters have made an argument that Patricia and Judge were even competent, let alone good. Anyone who just has a basic understanding of the job is an upgrade.

Yes, count me in camp 2. Good that they made the OC change. It’s an improvement. It won’t be enough, and it’s actually not addressing the most important problem.

 

[tims4wins]

I agree that these are the things I’ve liked that the Pats have done and not a lot else. I thought the two big TE signings would be better too.

I also think the OC stuff is way overblown. I think Mac was a bigger part of the problem than fans want to admit because it means we’re further from relevance, and it’s easier to shit on Patricia and Judge. They were awful but Mac just made terrible execution plays a ton. I wanted another QB in free agency or the draft because I think they’re wasting their time with Mac. But we’ll see if that’s right this year. Hopefully I’m surprised.

I think the best comp for Mac is Tannehill. Give him the running game and D and they are a borderline contender, like the 2021 Pats or some of the recent vintage Titans teams.

 

[ragnarok725]

I think the best comp for Mac is Tannehill. Give him the running game and D and they are a borderline contender, like the 2021 Pats or some of the recent vintage Titans teams.

I think that’s optimistic. Mac feels to me more like prime Brian Hoyer. I just don’t see that he does anything above average, and some things well below average. But this has been beaten to death around here. We’ll just have to see how the season goes. I’m praying I’m wrong.

 

[tims4wins]

I think that’s optimistic. Mac feels to me more like prime Brian Hoyer. I just don’t see that he does anything above average, and some things well below average.

Look at Tannehill's numbers through 2 years.

 

[ragnarok725]

Look at Tannehill's numbers through 2 years.

Tannehill had a very different pre-NFL career and is a much better athlete than Mac. He always had more upside.

 

[BaseballJones]

I think that’s optimistic. Mac feels to me more like prime Brian Hoyer. I just don’t see that he does anything above average, and some things well below average. But this has been beaten to death around here. We’ll just have to see how the season goes. I’m praying I’m wrong.

"Prime Brian Hoyer"? I guess you mean his 2014-2015 seasons?

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think the best comp for Mac is Tannehill. Give him the running game and D and they are a borderline contender, like the 2021 Pats or some of the recent vintage Titans teams.

Tannehill isn't a physical comp, much better athlete, stronger arm.
The Mac comp for those who hope he's good is probably always going to be Kirk Cousins, a similar sized guy, similar athlete who can use a combination of technique and skilled passcatchers to have solid success.

 

[ifmanis5]

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1668269287608336384

Bill Belichick says he doesn’t think every player has reported for mandatory minicamp. Asked if there are any excused absences, Belichick says the team is working through some things.

View: https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/1668270683997044739

Bill Belichick says LeGarrette Blount and Aaron Dobson are working with the Patriots through the Bill Walsh Coaching Fellowship.

 

[LoLsapien]

My first reaction to glancing at this post was, good god, why are Blount and Dobson working out for the Patriots?? Next I thought, maybe I'm hallucinating, perhaps I should check the date on the tweet. Only then did I realize this was a church thing. Sorry that this post is completely lacking in content. Carry on.

 

[DJnVa]

I'd take Blount back!

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

My first reaction to glancing at this post was, good god, why are Blount and Dobson working out for the Patriots?? Next I thought, maybe I'm hallucinating, perhaps I should check the date on the tweet. Only then did I realize this was a church thing. Sorry that this post is completely lacking in content. Carry on.

Can you explain the "Church thing" part?

This doesn't seem to have any religious component to it:

https://operations.nfl.com/inside-football-ops/players-legends/nfl-player-engagement/support-for-players-on-and-off-the-field/bill-walsh-diversity-coaching-fellowship/

And for the record, I am a Church guy, and realize that the big Guy upstairs doesn't have FanDuel yet...so he has no interest in what happens on the field.

 

[Saints Rest]

I see speculation that Lawrence Guy is absent due to a contract dispute. If true, I would have to think it’s “see ya later, big Guy.”

 

[BigJay]

Did any reporter call Bill on his statement? He "doesn't think every player" reported? Isn't that something the head coach of a team should know definitively?

 

[deythur]

Can you explain the "Church thing" part?

This doesn't seem to have any religious component to it:

https://operations.nfl.com/inside-football-ops/players-legends/nfl-player-engagement/support-for-players-on-and-off-the-field/bill-walsh-diversity-coaching-fellowship/

And for the record, I am a Church guy, and realize that the big Guy upstairs doesn't have FanDuel yet...so he has no interest in what happens on the field.

My guess is the OP misread Coaching fellowship for Christian Fellowship which is what I did at first. I guess they do a good job at marketing if that's where your head goes.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Can we set up a prayer group for Dante’s return to the flock?

 

[Van Everyman]

Jeff Howe saying that Mac had a lot of completions today but also a lot of check downs:
View: https://twitter.com/jeffphowe/status/1668376170776125443?s=46&t=4DK5sD-8gsSKFExcsnEJqg

 

[greek_gawd_of_walks]

Delete

 

[Harry Hooper]

What's the injury for JuJu? Heard something on the radio today, but just a fragment.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

Jeff Howe saying that Mac had a lot of completions today but also a lot of check downs:
View: https://twitter.com/jeffphowe/status/1668376170776125443?s=46&t=4DK5sD-8gsSKFExcsnEJqg

So basically same same

 

[DJnVa]

What's the injury for JuJu? Heard something on the radio today, but just a fragment.

Nothing new. It's them being careful after his injury last season.

ESPN’s Mike Reiss on Sunday reported the Patriots are being “cautious” with the former Kansas City Chief, noting that Smith-Schuster suffered a knee injury in last season’s AFC Championship Game (though he returned to play in Super Bowl LVII). Head coach Bill Belichick was asked for an update on Smith-Schuster’s status ahead of Monday’s practice.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Oh, just your standard 5 month lingering knee injury?

 

[lexrageorge]

Oh, just your standard 5 month lingering knee injury?

It's only been 4 months, not 5. And why bother taking any risks? Smith-Schuster has seen his share of minicamps and can certainly get up to speed without running non-contact 7v7 drills. Time to worry is if he get puts on Active/PUP prior to the start of regular training camp.

 

[DJnVa]

And he is getting in reps with Jones

Jones said after Monday’s practice that he and Smith-Schuster “have gotten some reps together” and have talked extensively about the Patriots’ offense and playbook.

 

[Ed Hillel]

It's only been 4 months, not 5. And why bother taking any risks? Smith-Schuster has seen his share of minicamps and can certainly get up to speed without running non-contact 7v7 drills. Time to worry is if he get puts on Active/PUP prior to the start of regular training camp.

Four and a half .

I guess I'm not sure which non-surgery knee injuries are typically still bothering people this far out and don't eventually require surgery or reduce productivity. Or am I missing that he did have surgery?

 

[katnado]

Four and a half .

I guess I'm not sure which non-surgery knee injuries are typically still bothering people this far out and don't eventually require surgery or reduce productivity. Or am I missing that he did have surgery?

Nope, no surgery. Same injury he sustained in the AFC championship game that's still bothering him in mid June.

 

[rodderick]

I always get worried over receivers missing offseason activities with lingering injuries. With the Patriots specifically that has been a pretty consistent harbinger of a disappointing season, so let's hope Juju heals up quickly and he's on the field as much as possible, same with Tyquan. Moss was an exception, I guess.

Juju also has a history of knee issues going back to 2019, which concerns me.

 

[Shelterdog]

I always get worried over receivers missing offseason activities with lingering injuries. With the Patriots specifically that has been a pretty consistent harbinger of a disappointing season, so let's hope whatever Juju has heals up quickly and he's on the field as much as possible, same with Tyquan. Moss was an exception, I guess.

I think this is the kind of thing you'd really need to chart out--who really remembers how much off season time Edelman or Gronk or Amendola of LaFell or whoever missed and how it correlated to whether they had good years or not.

 

[Justthetippett]

I always get worried over receivers missing offseason activities with lingering injuries. With the Patriots specifically that has been a pretty consistent harbinger of a disappointing season, so let's hope Juju heals up quickly and he's on the field as much as possible, same with Tyquan. Moss was an exception, I guess.

Juju also has a history of knee issues going back to 2019, which concerns me.

I agree. Obviously we don't know much but it's starting to put out a bad vibe. This will be even more difficult when Meyers is going off in LV as Adams' sidekick, and being durable.

 

[rodderick]

I think this is the kind of thing you'd really need to chart out--who really remembers how much off season time Edelman or Gronk or Amendola of LaFell or whoever missed and how it correlated to whether they had good years or not.

I think it's far less impactful for guys who have been on the team and aren't either FA signings or second year players, but from I've gathered Edelman and Amendola only missed minicamp while recovering from offseason surgery and Gronk missed it in 2016 due to health concerns, but they knew the offense inside and out and had a history of performing in it. I just worry when guys who are new to the team and need reps aren't available, but there's obviously a lot of time.

 

[Mooch]

I agree. Obviously we don't know much but it's starting to put out a bad vibe. This will be even more difficult when Meyers is going off in LV as Adams' sidekick, and being durable.

I'm not concerned about Meyers "going off" in any way shape or form with the giant question marks around Jimmy G right now.

 

[rodderick]

I'm not concerned about Meyers "going off" in any way shape or form with the giant question marks around Jimmy G right now.

Yeah, I don't think Meyers' production has anything to do with this and I honestly don't believe he's the kind of player capable of performing significantly above what he gave the Patriots anyway.

 

[tims4wins]

I always get worried over receivers missing offseason activities with lingering injuries. With the Patriots specifically that has been a pretty consistent harbinger of a disappointing season, so let's hope Juju heals up quickly and he's on the field as much as possible, same with Tyquan. Moss was an exception, I guess.

Couldn't agree more, especially on Tyquan. I was starting to build some enthusiasm for both him and the offense in general, but that has completely lost steam in the last day or two.

 

[lexrageorge]

What's not clear from the reporting is if JuJu is actually experiencing discomfort or pain in his knee these 4 months after the Super Bowl. Or if he's still just ramping up his strength and conditioning after an offseason geared towards a rest-and-rehab program for the knee, and so he's not quite ready to go full speed at OTA's. Mike Reiss's report seems to hint at the latter but obviously there is only so much info that comes from the Foxboro training staff, so who really knows.

Still, I do hope that whomever runs the SoSH/BBTL forum servers is gaming out the tail end scenario where Meyers has 180 receiving yards and 4 TD's in his first 2 games while JuJu is on the reserve/PUP list.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Yay!!!
View: https://twitter.com/trent/status/1668986423020605441?s=42&t=-Ai-mpXJJ05V-SE-SPRBGA

 

[Van Everyman]

Is that good?