Peter Abe: Offseason 23 Bloom or Cora Could Be Gone?

Archer1979

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TC4P has it right. I don't think that Abraham is saying, "Bloom has three years to win a World Series or he's gone", but I think he was saying that his predecessors won WS within a year or two of their hiring and were gone two seasons later. This is more of a commentary on ownership and their mercurial approach to the Red Sox Front Office than a condemnation of Bloom.
In that context, I think both have at least another year with the Sox. Bloom can clearly point to what the Sox farm system was ranked in 2019 vs where it's ranked now and show the improvement. Where the rubber hits the road, however, is that now that the farm has improved, will it yield either promotable impact players or be used to trade for players to impact the major league roster. In other words. the WooSox can win all the kudos in the world, but if it doesn't help the Boston roster, it's not helping.

How long of a rope that Bloom has is clearly up to JWHIII.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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In that context, I think both have at least another year with the Sox. Bloom can clearly point to what the Sox farm system was ranked in 2019 vs where it's ranked now and show the improvement. Where the rubber hits the road, however, is that now that the farm has improved, will it yield either promotable impact players or be used to trade for players to impact the major league roster. In other words. the WooSox can win all the kudos in the world, but if it doesn't help the Boston roster, it's not helping.

How long of a rope that Bloom has is clearly up to JWHIII.
Yes. I think that this is very true. I think that Bloom has another year of saying, "The farm system looks great!" before the farm system has to start producing dividends. That's the problem with the whole, "No, I swear the future is going to be awesome", it's that in a place like Boston, the future comes pretty quick. You can get away with that in Pittsburgh and Houston and Oakland, but most fans don't care about how the Portland Sea Dogs are doing. And you can frame this as "smart" fans or "dumb" fans, but dumb fans buy tickets too. And beer. And hot dogs. And hats. And shirts.

You start ignoring those "dumb" fans and your team quickly becomes an afterthought.
 

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I’d put some credence in this if Speier wrote it. Pete Abe and CHB have been effectively frozen out of the Bloom front office. They learn their inside scoops from Twitter.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I’d put some credence in this if Speier wrote it. Pete Abe and CHB have been effectively frozen out of the Bloom front office. They learn their inside scoops from Twitter.
Source?

And if you think Abe or Shank don't have moles in the FO, you're nuts.
 

Van Everyman

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Source?

And if you think Abe or Shank don't have moles in the FO, you're nuts.
Yeah, that's insane. Abraham may get a little high strung from time to time, but he's a solid reporter with ethics. As I said, I think he's picking up on some uneasiness within the organization about how things played out this year and speculating a bit on how it could play out. I agree that it's unlikely either Bloom or Cora gets axed this year, but I suspect their seats are a little warm. As they probably should be.
 

moondog80

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I'd like to know more about that Bloom quote a few posts up. Seems significant but can't find it referenced anywhere else.
 

sezwho

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I'd like to know more about that Bloom quote a few posts up. Seems significant but can't find it referenced anywhere else.
Interesting if from August, as YAC said it seems like it could have just as easily been a quote taken last year. Not exactly controversial.

Yes. I think that this is very true. I think that Bloom has another year of saying, "The farm system looks great!" before the farm system has to start producing dividends. That's the problem with the whole, "No, I swear the future is going to be awesome", it's that in a place like Boston, the future comes pretty quick. You can get away with that in Pittsburgh and Houston and Oakland, but most fans don't care about how the Portland Sea Dogs are doing. And you can frame this as "smart" fans or "dumb" fans, but dumb fans buy tickets too. And beer. And hot dogs. And hats. And shirts.

You start ignoring those "dumb" fans and your team quickly becomes an afterthought.
Agree here as well. You can't (I mean you could) fire Bloom for following orders and implementing the plan you hired him to implement. A WS was always going to be even longer odds during a structural transformation, but this year is going to add some urgency.

To the bolded above, this is really where rubber hits road. Super that prospects 20-40 are better, but that only matters if you are a WooSox season ticket older unless they can impact winning at the MLB level. That could be catching lightning in a bottle performance wise or moving en masse to get someone who can make an impact.

Maybe whistling past graveyard, but I'm not really sweating the rotation next year (others have come up with the lists of probables even before FA) and TINSTAAPP kinda cuts both ways here, in that really many arms could potentially surprise at least enough to impact the pen. All that said, after Casas I'm not sure who we forecast to really matter next year away from pitching.

Long way to say if Bloom is to be judged largely on the success of the farm's ability to produce value next year (and I'm hoping Casas is the carrying tool!) then maybe rent...and to close the loop I'd be amazed if Cora outlasts Bloom.
 

moondog80

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Bloom should be judged on the whole picture. Let's say they extend Devers, make one other long-ish term signing of 5 years or more, and spend to the tax to fill in the rest of the holes on short term deals to put together a team that is projected to win 88 games (kinda like last year except this time no JBJ-like deals, they have actual major leaguers at every position). At the same time, the farm system continues to steadily rise in the rankings. If they do all that and have another year of horrible injury luck and unforeseeable underperformance and they win 75 games, but Casas and Bello have rookie years that make them look like contributors going forward, should he lose his job?
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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If they do all that and have another year of horrible injury luck and unforeseeable underperformance and they win 75 games, but Casas and Bello have rookie years that make them look like contributors going forward, should he lose his job?
It sorta depends. If he goes dumpster diving for arms (whether old ones like Hill or ones with injury histories like Wacha and Paxton), then yes he should probably lose his job. Mainly because that was a big mistake during this past offseason and if he does it again, it means he's not learning. I mean you don't buy a TV at DollarTree and get to complain about "bad luck" when the thing breaks on you a week later. But if he signs/trades for quality arms that aren't obvious time bombs and they break down, then that's not his fault. That's just bad luck.

He got Schwarber the same way (though it almost bit him in the ass when the Sox were tied with three other teams for two playoff spots on the last day of last year--Schwarber not being ready to play two weeks after his acquisition could have definitely screwed that team, but it all worked out) and maybe he thought he could do it again this offseason. But I'd argue that that strategy works against you far more times than it works for you, as the Baseball Ops Poobah of the Boston Red Sox that should not be your SOP.
 

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I don't think in any year while Bloom's been the GM they have been meant to really contend, last year was a pleasant surprise but until Story this season they hadn't made a significant commitment to anybody. This has likely been in the name of payroll and roster flexibility, which I don't think means they've been cheap, but in order to pursue top tier FA's and start to consider extending current major league stars and potentially prospects, they clearly felt they needed to get below the first tax threshold. Next season there's room in the payroll for anything they want to do and they'll have some prospects ready to contribute so it's an important year for Bloom, I don't think they'll be a juggernaut, but hopefully there is promise for his and our sake. If not I could see a narrative that between another rough Story season and say, letting a productive Xander walk them moving on.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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It sorta depends. If he goes dumpster diving for arms (whether old ones like Hill or ones with injury histories like Wacha and Paxton), then yes he should probably lose his job. Mainly because that was a big mistake during this past offseason and if he does it again, it means he's not learning. I mean you don't buy a TV at DollarTree and get to complain about "bad luck" when the thing breaks on you a week later. But if he signs/trades for quality arms that aren't obvious time bombs and they break down, then that's not his fault. That's just bad luck.

He got Schwarber the same way (though it almost bit him in the ass when the Sox were tied with three other teams for two playoff spots on the last day of last year--Schwarber not being ready to play two weeks after his acquisition could have definitely screwed that team, but it all worked out) and maybe he thought he could do it again this offseason. But I'd argue that that strategy works against you far more times than it works for you, as the Baseball Ops Poobah of the Boston Red Sox that should not be your SOP.
What was so bad about his strategy for dumpster diving? Both Hill and Wacha have been fine as covers for Chris Sale. Do you think he should have signed a $30M per year starter because he should have expected a healthy Chris Sale in Spring Training to injure himself to 5 innings pitched the entire season?
Seriously.... what do people think he should have done because he should have known Sale was going to be injured? Who would have been better than Wacha has been?
 

moondog80

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It sorta depends. If he goes dumpster diving for arms (whether old ones like Hill or ones with injury histories like Wacha and Paxton), then yes he should probably lose his job. Mainly because that was a big mistake during this past offseason and if he does it again, it means he's not learning. I mean you don't buy a TV at DollarTree and get to complain about "bad luck" when the thing breaks on you a week later. But if he signs/trades for quality arms that aren't obvious time bombs and they break down, then that's not his fault. That's just bad luck.

He got Schwarber the same way (though it almost bit him in the ass when the Sox were tied with three other teams for two playoff spots on the last day of last year--Schwarber not being ready to play two weeks after his acquisition could have definitely screwed that team, but it all worked out) and maybe he thought he could do it again this offseason. But I'd argue that that strategy works against you far more times than it works for you, as the Baseball Ops Poobah of the Boston Red Sox that should not be your SOP.
They are going to have to do some "dumpster diving". There just isn't enough cost-controlled talent to offset major spending at every hole they have without rocketing past the tax threshold.
 

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I don't think Bloom should be fired. I would give him several more years at the very least to see if his minor league system can produce impact talent.

But in his three years at the helm he's got two last place finishes. While he didn't decide to trade Mookie the return he got for a perennial MVP candidate has been grossly underwhelming. His big signing has been Story who has been an immense disappointment (92 OPS+ plus a ton of missed time). His bullpen has been atrocious this year and he didn't really seem to have a consistent direction at the trade deadline. The Red Sox have a $200 million payroll this year and yet are 4 games under .500. They have been cover-your-eyes-awful against divisional opponents. That's not acceptable in any way.

And while the counter-argument would be to point to adversity I would say all baseball teams encounter adversity, and many of them manage to play well in spite of it. The Red Sox did not.

We've seen for many years in football that a coach who was a very good offensive or defensive coordinator gets a head coaching job only to fall flat on his face. I don't see why the same can't be applied to baseball: Bloom got a promotion to come to Boston after all. There's no reason why he would inevitably have success in his new role, there seems to be a reluctance here to acknowledge that the job may simply be beyond his capabilities. That's not a character flaw on his part, but rather him butting up against his limits.

Bloom may simply be another example of the Peter Principle in action. We'll know for sure in a year or two.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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What was so bad about his strategy for dumpster diving? Both Hill and Wacha have been fine as covers for Chris Sale. Do you think he should have signed a $30M per year starter because he should have expected a healthy Chris Sale in Spring Training to injure himself to 5 innings pitched the entire season?
Seriously.... what do people think he should have done because he should have known Sale was going to be injured? Who would have been better than Wacha has been?
A. You should always assume that Chris Sale is going to get injured at some point. Mostly because he is.

B. What was bad about dumpster diving is that Hill, Wacha, etc get hurt or they can't go very deep into games. That means that the Sox have to give starts to rookies who either aren't good or aren't quite ready. Or they have to go their bullpen early and often, which puts a lot of innings on those arms. Michael Wacha has been pretty good. When he pitches. He's made 16 starts, which is about a half-season's worth so far. He's not dependable and he's had a track record for that too, the last time he made 30 starts was also in 2017.

Closing your eyes and hoping that pitchers will stay healthy isn't a great plan.

They are going to have to do some "dumpster diving". There just isn't enough cost-controlled talent to offset major spending at every hole they have without rocketing past the tax threshold.
That seems like it's going to be a problem for Mr. Bloom.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Bloom should be judged on the whole picture. Let's say they extend Devers, make one other long-ish term signing of 5 years or more, and spend to the tax to fill in the rest of the holes on short term deals to put together a team that is projected to win 88 games (kinda like last year except this time no JBJ-like deals, they have actual major leaguers at every position). At the same time, the farm system continues to steadily rise in the rankings. If they do all that and have another year of horrible injury luck and unforeseeable underperformance and they win 75 games, but Casas and Bello have rookie years that make them look like contributors going forward, should he lose his job?
It's looking more and more likely that they will not be doing that.

If they win 75 games next year then Bloom's job should be in jeopardy. His job is two-fold: to rebuild the minor league system AND to win at the major league one. If he doesn't do the latter he won't get the chance to do the former.

Reese McGuire has only played 15 games in a Sox uniform and is already 12th on the team in WAR with 0.8. I don't know if that's a credit to Bloom that one of his pickups is playing so well, or a damning statement about him that a guy that's barely played is already in the top 1/2 of the team he constructed in WAR.

And while he didn't draft Duran, it's a real problem that one of the Sox' supposedly best prospects has a career WAR of -0.8 in only 300 PAs while displaying terrible defensive skills and a bad attitude. The player development mechanism in the minors clearly needs more work.
 
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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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A. You should always assume that Chris Sale is going to get injured at some point. Mostly because he is.

B. What was bad about dumpster diving is that Hill, Wacha, etc get hurt or they can't go very deep into games. That means that the Sox have to give starts to rookies who either aren't good or aren't quite ready. Or they have to go their bullpen early and often, which puts a lot of innings on those arms. Michael Wacha has been pretty good. When he pitches. He's made 16 starts, which is about a half-season's worth so far. He's not dependable and he's had a track record for that too, the last time he made 30 starts was also in 2017.

Closing your eyes and hoping that pitchers will stay healthy isn't a great plan.



That seems like it's going to be a problem for Mr. Bloom.
Sure.... but that's $30M that has to be accounted for under what appears to be from all accounts, a pretty strict directive to start controlling costs. Who was available to sign that was better than Wacha and Hill? I REALLY don't believe that Bloom was being given a green light to sign a FA starter that was going to cost more than either of those guys.
He unfortunately also has to go into '23 with the assumption that Sale is going to be healthy. Henry (DD?) bet the house on Sale and Bloom is playing with that ace. He had Eovaldi as a no. 2 and after that, enough talent to compete. What other $20M+ starter should he have signed? What other teams have 3 starters that make more than $70M that ALSO isn't in some financial constraint by ownership?
I mean... yeah, I agree. You can't count on Chris Sale. But Bloom kinda sorta has to until some of that young pitching turns into cost controlled talent. We're still at least two years away until guys like Mata and Bello might be those types that can step in and be an affordable top of the rotation type so the only option is to spend which Bloom clearly isn't been given a blank check on.
 

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Yes, it is. How would you propose he solve it?
I don't know, I didn't dig myself this hole. It's not really my problem.

To be less snarky, I'd find (whether through trade or FA) a front-line starter. That's my number one thing to do in the offseason. (Who that person would be, I have no clue) Sign Eovaldi, hope that Ballo can do something next year and make a decision on Whitlock and not yo-you him around. Have Pivetta as a swing man/fifth starter. I'm not sure what to do with Sale, Abraham had an idea of making him the closer with the idea that he won't be throwing as many innings and if he gets injured, it's easier to replace a closer than it is a starter. But I'm not convinced that's the right thing to do.

This is all off the top of my head, I haven't really spent too long thinking about this. I expect that Bloom has.

EDIT: Maybe if Sale is in tip-top shape and you don't feel that the bullpen is a great idea, then he slides into Ballo's spot and Ballo works out of the pen as a 7th/8th inning guy. So the rotation would look like: Number one new guy, Eovaldi, Sale/Bello, Whitlock and Pivetta. I have a feeling that Wacha is going somewhere else for more money, I'm fine to let Hill leave and I'm not much of Crawford believer.
 
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moondog80

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I don't know, I didn't dig myself this hole. It's not really my problem.

Chaim Bloom didn't dig himself into the hole of having to pay Chris Sale for a couple more years while having very little cost controlled talent either.

Bloom didn't do a great job this past year. I have been extremely critical of the JBJ and Paxton deals diverting talent from a team that was two wins form the WS. But if you're going to complain, you have to acknowledge the situation he inherited. Devers debuted in 2017 and the system had produced very, very little in that time. You can duck the question by saying "it's not my problem", but this was going to be a tough spot for any GM, especially given the constraint of not wanting to sell out the future.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Chaim Bloom didn't dig himself into the hole of having to pay Chris Sale for a couple more years while having very little cost controlled talent either.

Bloom didn't do a great job this past year. I have been extremely critical of the JBJ and Paxton deals diverting talent from a team that was two wins form the WS. But if you're going to complain, you have to acknowledge the situation he inherited. Devers debuted in 2017 and the system had produced very, very little in that time. You can duck the question by saying "it's not my problem", but this was going to be a tough spot for any GM, especially given the constraint of not wanting to sell out the future.
I answered your question above.

And you're right, Bloom didn't use the shovel to dig this hole; but he came to the organization knowing that the hole was there. But I will say that "this is a tough spot for any GM" is sorta letting him off the hook easily. Of course it's a tough spot, but he said that he could fix the problem. He really hasn't shown that he has the ability to do so.
 

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And while he didn't draft Duran, it's a real problem that one of the Sox' supposedly best prospects has a career WAR of -0.8 in only 300 PAs while displaying terrible defensive skills and a bad attitude. The player development mechanism in the minors clearly needs more work.
Duran was ranked as one of the best prospects in an overall weak and barren farm system. To a starving man, a stale saltine looks like a grand meal. Doesn't mean it really is one. Duran was never deserving of the hype.
 

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The thing with Devers and X, and even Mookie, was that, while Bloom is at the forefront of each interaction, the final decision isn't up to Bloom because of the dollars involved. If Bloom can correctly gauge what it will take to re-sign X, and JWH doesn't sign-off, it's not happening. Because of that, I don't believe that Bloom will be automatically be on the hook for them leaving. Signing an extension and then sucking a la Sale would be entirely on the him though. It's all going to come down to what he recommends and what JWH allows.

I don't really give Bloom that much weight when had to deal Mookie. Part of the problem, as with any deal, is finding a suitable partner. There weren't a lot of teams out their with the ability to pay Mookie and provide a suitable return in players. The Sox tipped their hand in letting everyone know that Betts was gone and essentially took the "do nothing" option off the table which is a huge impetus for sweetening the pot. Those two factors are why we weren't able to get a better deal with LA.
 

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I don't really give Bloom that much weight when had to deal Mookie. Part of the problem, as with any deal, is finding a suitable partner. There weren't a lot of teams out their with the ability to pay Mookie and provide a suitable return in players. The Sox tipped their hand in letting everyone know that Betts was gone and essentially took the "do nothing" option off the table which is a huge impetus for sweetening the pot. Those two factors are why we weren't able to get a better deal with LA.
That and stapling $50M worth of David Price to him. That part seems to be oft-overlooked. Mookie alone probably yields a better prospect than any of Verdugo, Wong, or Downs, though probably not three total prospects of any value.
 

lexrageorge

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Given the payroll constraints imposed by ownership, not sure that Bloom had much alternative to signing Hill and Wacha. The Sox aren’t ever going to have 5 highly priced starting pitchers and 4 more similarly priced relievers, no matter who the GM is, so they will have to periodically catch lightning in a bottle.

Sometimes you dumpster dive and get Koji.

EDIT: I really think some here are seriously underestimating the enormity of the task to rebuild the team's roster from the farm system out, especially given the constraints imposed by Henry & Co. It took Theo 4 seasons to get the Cubs to the playoffs, and a 5th to win a title. And, while Theo has since, they've had a couple of lean years and are looking at a couple more while their farm system starts bearing fruit again. It took the Astros a similarly long time. It's really not out of the question that it could take 2-4 more seasons before this team truly contends again. Such is the cost of trading a player like Betts, and forcing teams to swallow Price's contract in exchange.
 
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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Given the payroll constraints imposed by ownership, not sure that Bloom had much alternative to signing Hill and Wacha. The Sox aren’t ever going to have 5 highly priced starting pitchers and 4 more similarly priced relievers, no matter who the GM is, so they will have to periodically catch lightning in a bottle.

Sometimes you dumpster dive and get Koji.
Absolutely. Sometimes you dumpster dive and get Wacha and Hill which turned out better than expected to be honest. Great move by Bloom IMO.
Sometimes you sign a great pitcher to an exhorbitant amount and get Chris Sale. That the team is stuck with his contract and how it handcuffs his ability to make FA signings is no fault of his. That he couldn’t make a trade for another great pitcher because the farm was still pretty barren is no fault of his either.

I’ve got plenty of complaints but the rotation in Spring training isn’t one
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Absolutely. Sometimes you dumpster dive and get Wacha and Hill which turned out better than expected to be honest. Great move by Bloom IMO.
You keep saying this but it’s not true. Wacha has made 16 starts going into September. Hill has made 19. And when Hill starts he normally needs someone stapled to him, especially at the beginning of the season.

They’re not efficient and their inefficiencies have cascaded to the rest of the pitching staff. They’re both completely unreliable but when they do pitch, they’re good.
 
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moondog80

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I really think some here are seriously underestimating the enormity of the task to rebuild the team's roster from the farm system out, especially given the constraints imposed by Henry & Co. It took Theo 4 seasons to get the Cubs to the playoffs, and a 5th to win a title. And, while Theo has since, they've had a couple of lean years and are looking at a couple more while their farm system starts bearing fruit again. It took the Astros a similarly long time. It's really not out of the question that it could take 2-4 more seasons before this team truly contends again. Such is the cost of trading a player like Betts, and forcing teams to swallow Price's contract in exchange.
Yep. Especially given the state of the rest of the division. Baltimore, for one, just graduated their top prospect, who has a 3.8 WAR in 79 games, and is still ranked by some as having the #1 farm system.
 

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I was in the Chaim camp last year. I wasn’t a fanboy but I thought I had an idea of what he wanted to accomplish here and how he wanted to do it. There was one move that really changed my opinion of Chaim and that was the Renfroe deal. Renfroe was the type of player that I thought Chaim was here to acquire. He was a good player that had potential to get even better, he was cost effective and we had team control for several years. He was my dad’s favorite player last year. Then he trades him for JBJ and AA prospects. This was a bad deal - I could see that. JBJ was one of my favorite players when he was on the Sox, but even without considering the huge increase in salary, it was a bad deal. There was no need to make this trade and it did damage to the team. We needed the offensive power and we now have huge question marks in the outfield.

I heard about a report from Buster Olney that there was a major division in the Sox organization, between the scouting division/player evaluation and Bloom. Take from this what you will, but he said that scouts were finding players and bringing them to Bloom, and Bloom was reportedly rejecting the “best” players in favor of guys further down the line. Now I’m not going to get into who‘s right or wrong, but if the story is true then there’s at least a difference in philosophy in terms of player evaluation.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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You keep saying this but it’s not true. Wacha has made 16 starts going into September. Hill has made 19. And when Hill starts he normally needs someone stapled to him, especially at the beginning of the season.

They’re not efficient and their inefficiencies have cascaded to the rest of the pitching staff. They’re both completely unreliable but when they do pitch, they’re good.
It was a great move. He got two guys that stepped up and more than adequately filled in… then a freak accident took out Sale.
They both were better than I or anyone expected. Were they ace caliber? Hell no. But again… how can you or anyone expect that level of replacement for Sale at clear budgetary restraints? Who would you have signed considering EdRo wasn’t brought back at $17.5M? And then Wacha still would have been needed on top of that.
 

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The only problem with that 2-4 season period is that Boston has the most toxic sports coverage in the country, coverage that reaches a lot of people who want an Oompa Loompa NOW and do not want to hear it might take time when the team's biggest rival somehow makes the postseason every year (with poor results, obviously), as do the Rays. These people are loud and buy tickets.

Also, ownership has never really shown a willingness to come right out and say they're rebuilding. The last time they flirted with that idea, the infamous "Bridge Year," they were murdered in the press and lost face in the public eye. They won't do that again, not any time soon. In all likelihood, as others have speculated, the possibility, however remote at the time of the deadline, that the team could still make the playoffs this year is what prevented Bloom from doing a more wholesale turnover of the roster, either by edict or because of a belief that they'd right the ship once healthy. For all we know, that was his plan, but he was handcuffed by the fact that they managed to hold steady in the race, despite a terrible July, due to their competition mostly refusing to take advantage of their stumbles.

I think his job is safe for now, but this off-season may be a bit of a crucible for him.
 

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I was in the Chaim camp last year. I wasn’t a fanboy but I thought I had an idea of what he wanted to accomplish here and how he wanted to do it. There was one move that really changed my opinion of Chaim and that was the Renfroe deal. Renfroe was the type of player that I thought Chaim was here to acquire. He was a good player that had potential to get even better, he was cost effective and we had team control for several years. He was my dad’s favorite player last year. Then he trades him for JBJ and AA prospects. This was a bad deal - I could see that. JBJ was one of my favorite players when he was on the Sox, but even without considering the huge increase in salary, it was a bad deal. There was no need to make this trade and it did damage to the team. We needed the offensive power and we now have huge question marks in the outfield.

I heard about a report from Buster Olney that there was a major division in the Sox organization, between the scouting division/player evaluation and Bloom. Take from this what you will, but he said that scouts were finding players and bringing them to Bloom, and Bloom was reportedly rejecting the “best” players in favor of guys further down the line. Now I’m not going to get into who‘s right or wrong, but if the story is true then there’s at least a difference in philosophy in terms of player evaluation.
the same "Olney" who fudged the numbers in this tweet, and then had to delete and repost it wen called out on it?
View: https://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/1563525284024168449?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1563525284024168449%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=


Good, especially given that one of Blooms seasons was a Covid shortened one and the other is under a new CBA. Good luck getting anyone good to take the GM job if they did fire him this season,
 

simplicio

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Apr 11, 2012
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Conspiracy theory: the whole "story" was planted by Bloom just to make extra sure he still had a job before officially tanking the rest of the season.
 

chawson

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Aug 1, 2006
4,678
It sorta depends. If he goes dumpster diving for arms (whether old ones like Hill or ones with injury histories like Wacha and Paxton), then yes he should probably lose his job. Mainly because that was a big mistake during this past offseason and if he does it again, it means he's not learning. I mean you don't buy a TV at DollarTree and get to complain about "bad luck" when the thing breaks on you a week later. But if he signs/trades for quality arms that aren't obvious time bombs and they break down, then that's not his fault. That's just bad luck.

He got Schwarber the same way (though it almost bit him in the ass when the Sox were tied with three other teams for two playoff spots on the last day of last year--Schwarber not being ready to play two weeks after his acquisition could have definitely screwed that team, but it all worked out) and maybe he thought he could do it again this offseason. But I'd argue that that strategy works against you far more times than it works for you, as the Baseball Ops Poobah of the Boston Red Sox that should not be your SOP.
Well, Wacha and Hill have combined for 178.2 IP across 35 starts at a 3.43 ERA, going 15-6. That's comparable to a very good #2 starter for $12 million, even if it does take two roster spots. If they both hadn't gotten hurt at the same time, maybe none of this is happening.

But I agree with your point that the Sox should have 1-2 starters who can reliably go more than 5 innings. I'm bullish on Bello and a cautious Crawford campaigner, but I'm not sure either of them are six-inning starters next year.

The question is whether Bloom prefers to “dumpster dive” or is driven to by circumstance. My running theory is that the Sox routinely struggle to nab desirable free agent starters due to a variety of factors: geography, Fenway/the AL East's status as a hitter's park/division, greater payroll parity among larger mid-market teams in the revenue-sharing era, and the team's new-ish philosophical opposition to outbid the field on long contracts for starting pitchers after injuries to Sale and Price. We were reportedly in on Matz, Stroman, Heaney and Syndergaard last year, but alas. This year, Musgrove would have been the obvious target, but he’s off the table. Bassitt (34), Eflin (29), Heaney (32), Stripling (33) and Taillon (31) are all worth multi-year deals, but I'd be surprised if we were the ones to outbid the field for them at a price that people are comfortable with. Thus our new pitching development program.

Hill seems like a good bet for a Wakefield-style annual contract, given his age and family circumstances. A QO for Eovaldi, or some kind of two- or three-year compact, seems like a lock to me. Why pass up a solid #3 who actually wants to be here?
 

JBJ_HOF

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Apr 5, 2014
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Peter Abraham is on NESN right now: "I don't think this is a big surprise, to me this seems like they were trying to tamp down something nationally. Certainly not anyone with credibility thought Cora or Bloom would be out."
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Jan 13, 2021
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It seems pretty clear that they’ve only been in on pitchers willing to sign 1 year deals over the past few years (ideally with a club option). Wacha is a hit, Hill, Richards, Perez, and Paxton less so. Will they only dabble in this market again this year? It may be wise to do so- most FA pitching signings aren’t great value, but the challenge is that the Sox have to build either most of a rotation or most of a bullpen, depending on what they do with Whitlock and Houck. It’s a tall order. They have some ok depth in the minors but I don’t think you want to pencil any of them into the rotation to start. Ideally, they could turn some prospect into a youngish #2-3 starter in a trade.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jan 23, 2009
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Peter Abraham is on NESN right now: "I don't think this is a big surprise, to me this seems like they were trying to tamp down something nationally. Certainly not anyone with credibility thought Cora or Bloom would be out."
Seems like this is only a thing because of his column (though admittedly I don't pay attention to national writers), and he can weasel out of being "wrong" by saying he was talking about next season being a hot-seat year, not right now.
 

richgedman'sghost

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May 13, 2006
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Obviously, of the 5 most recent Red Sox managers, Tito is number one with a bullet and Bobby V is probably tied with Roenicke for last place (maybe RR gets a courtesy boost up to fourth, by default), but I'm not so sure I'd put AC as the de facto number two. I know A LOT of people were really upset about his return after his year-long suspension. That portion of the fan base saw, and maybe still sees, him as a cheater. The fact that his one title as Sox skipper also came with mild cheating allegations did not help, either, especially when MLB effectively both sides'd the whole thing by fining the Sox and the Yankees for improper use of video equipment.

It may be nitpicking, but I would dare guess that some hold Manager John in higher esteem these days and may not shed a tear when Cora exits, stage right.
I'd put Joe Kerrigan 5th behind even Bobby Valentine simply because Kerrigan almost singlehandedly ruined Pedro in 2001 and Pedro hated him. If Pedro hates you, then something must be wrong with you. Then I would put Bobby followed by Ron Roenicke (I think he actually isn't a horrible manager as evidenced by his time in Milwaukee. He got screwed by the wacky Covid year and got no support from management) Farrelll and Cora are very close for second and third place with Tito the best Sox manager In recent times by a landslide. Your list might vary.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

critical thinker
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Dec 19, 2009
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I'd put Joe Kerrigan 5th behind even Bobby Valentine simply because Kerrigan almost singlehandedly ruined Pedro in 2001 and Pedro hated him. If Pedro hates you, then something must be wrong with you. Then I would put Bobby followed by Ron Roenicke (I think he actually isn't a horrible manager as evidenced by his time in Milwaukee. He got screwed by the wacky Covid year and got no support from management) Farrelll and Cora are very close for second and third place with Tito the best Sox manager In recent times by a landslide. Your list might vary.
I said the 5 most recent...

In reverse order:

1. Cora (2018-19, 2021-present)
2. Roenicke (2020)
3. John Farrell (2013-17)
4. Bobby Valentine (2012)
5. Terry Francona (2004-11)

Kerrigan was before Grady Little.
 

chawson

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Aug 1, 2006
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It seems pretty clear that they’ve only been in on pitchers willing to sign 1 year deals over the past few years (ideally with a club option). Wacha is a hit, Hill, Richards, Perez, and Paxton less so. Will they only dabble in this market again this year? It may be wise to do so- most FA pitching signings aren’t great value, but the challenge is that the Sox have to build either most of a rotation or most of a bullpen, depending on what they do with Whitlock and Houck. It’s a tall order. They have some ok depth in the minors but I don’t think you want to pencil any of them into the rotation to start. Ideally, they could turn some prospect into a youngish #2-3 starter in a trade.
This isn’t accurate. Speier reported that they were out on deals for pitchers at four or more years, but they were interested in the two or three year range. They were reportedly in on Matz, Odorizzi, Stroman and probably more who fit this bill. I also remember (but can’t find a link right now) that they offered Kluber a two-year deal before he signed with the Yanks.
 

johnlos

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Aug 22, 2014
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Chaim Bloom is not being fired. This ownership group finally got the type of analytically driven, system-building, development-focused guy they’ve been looking for to build a long-term, sustainable, perennially contending team. They aren’t bailling on him because he *only* got to the ALCS once in his first 3 years, especially when presented with the shit sandwich of being in effect forced to trade Mookie Betts and continue to have Chris Sale sucking $30m a year off the payroll.

With regards to Cora, unless there is some unknown factor between he and Bloom, I also don’t think there is any chance that the ownership group that basically put Roenicke in to babysit for a year while he was suspended, and then brought him back despite a high-profile cheating scandal is now going to sour on him after having won a championship and nudged an over-achieving team within 2 games of another WS because they had an injury-ravaged season in year 3 of the build.

In other words, I think this story is clickbait nonsense.
preach
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
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Dec 7, 2008
11,342
A. You should always assume that Chris Sale is going to get injured at some point. Mostly because he is.
Before 2022 Sale had had one major injury in his career, and it was a common pitching injury, and they had seen him return and throw 9 good to very good starts to end the season. So why exactly should they have assumed that he would have a bunch of freak injuries in 2022 again?