Pitching Targets

Snodgrass'Muff

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My addition says 20 WAR for Sale, but I guess Quintana is better than I thought.
So if the salaries and control make them so comparable, and you think that Hahn sees it that way, then why do you think that the trade chips will be lower for Quintana?
I don't, but that's a subjective opinion and it's a minority one at that. If I'm wrong and he's less expensive to acquire, that's an easy call for me.
 

FanSinceBoggs

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An excellent piece by Ben Buchanan explaining why a Chris Sale trade doesn't make sense for the Red Sox:
http://www.overthemonster.com/2016/7/25/12270400/chris-sale-trade-red-sox-white-sox-eduardo-rodriguez-david-price

I think the rotation is set. The Red Sox need to focus on C (I would trade Swihart and something else for Lucroy), LF (return B.Holt to his utility role), and relief pitcher (only if they can find another B.Ziegler trade).

I would also seriously consider firing "pitching guru" John Farrell and Willis even at this juncture of the season. The pitching staff is underperforming--maybe the manager and pitching coach have something to do with that. . . .
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I actually worked an event for the Nats when they first moved to DC. They threw a big event at Union Station to welcome he team, greet the city, etc and the company I worked for owned the places in the main hall and catered it. I spent about twenty minutes or so talking to Bowden about baseball and walked away somewhat convinced I could be a GM.

He's a very nice guy and of course he's probably forgotten more about the game than I'll ever know, but I walked away wondering how in the hell he ever got to his position. Especially twice. Which makes him perfect for ESPN, I guess.
 

Yaz4Ever

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An excellent piece by Ben Buchanan explaining why a Chris Sale trade doesn't make sense for the Red Sox:
http://www.overthemonster.com/2016/7/25/12270400/chris-sale-trade-red-sox-white-sox-eduardo-rodriguez-david-price

I think the rotation is set. The Red Sox need to focus on C (I would trade Swihart and something else for Lucroy), LF (return B.Holt to his utility role), and relief pitcher (only if they can find another B.Ziegler trade).

I would also seriously consider firing "pitching guru" John Farrell and Willis even at this juncture of the season. The pitching staff is underperforming--maybe the manager and pitching coach have something to do with that. . . .
Dead on.
 

frankubus

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Jul 27, 2016
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An excellent piece by Ben Buchanan explaining why a Chris Sale trade doesn't make sense for the Red Sox:
http://www.overthemonster.com/2016/7/25/12270400/chris-sale-trade-red-sox-white-sox-eduardo-rodriguez-david-price

I think the rotation is set. The Red Sox need to focus on C (I would trade Swihart and something else for Lucroy), LF (return B.Holt to his utility role), and relief pitcher (only if they can find another B.Ziegler trade).

I would also seriously consider firing "pitching guru" John Farrell and Willis even at this juncture of the season. The pitching staff is underperforming--maybe the manager and pitching coach have something to do with that. . . .
I have been stressing this for days in conversation. See what a package for Lucroy, Jeffress, and Braun would cost. Or even just Lucroy and Jeffress to avoid including Beni.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I'd still be happy with acquiring Sale or Quintana as long as it doesn't cost the entire farm/they can keep Moncada out of it. Might not be the missing piece from a championship team this year, but neither is a rental and you really never can have enough pitching.

Having at least two more seasons of Price, Porcello, Pomeranz, Wright and either Sale or Quintana to build around means that outside of injuries, the rotation is set. The lineup is already basically done as well, so Dombrowski's focus can be on the pen, depth, and restocking the farm.

Said differently, I'd rather see trade chips used to secure the rotation for the next couple of years than to plug holes this year.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I'd certainly explore a Sale deal, but I do agree that using Espinoza to get Pomeranz has already used significant capital to address needs in the rotation. I'm also not thrilled with the idea of having 3 LHP trying to match up in Fenway with teams like Toronto.

But what if the team could get it done with ERod, Beni and two lesser prospects? Maybe. Doubt that would be enough though, and if you have to add in Swihart or Devers or Kopech, then it's too much. (Moncada AND Benintendi would be too much, imo.)
 

BaseballJones

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This team improves dramatically if/when Price returns to being DAVID PRICE - SUPERSTAR. The other spots seem to be solid enough, IMO.

What's frustrating is that Price and Kimbrel were basically two guys who were as good and as consistent as they come. Dominant pitchers, both of them. Price proved he could pitch in the AL East - both with Tampa and Toronto. He was a perennial CYA candidate. Coming off a year in which he finished #2 in the CYA voting. Total stud. Never a bad season. Just really great and consistent. And then.....boom. This year hits.

Kimbrel - utterly dominant closer. Huge K numbers. Minuscule ERA. Every year he was great. And then...boom. This year hits and he's not only not great (pretty good but not great), he gets hurt...in the outfield shagging balls of all things.

If Price is what Price should be, the rotation is in good shape. I'd rather hope for that than trade away Moncada or Benintendi.
 

DeadlySplitter

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^ These are the two reasons why you might as well try another pitching coach at least midseason.

It probably barely matters but it can't hurt to have a change, and there's enough sample size to say Willis doesn't bring any intangibles.
 

TomRicardo

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An excellent piece by Ben Buchanan explaining why a Chris Sale trade doesn't make sense for the Red Sox:
http://www.overthemonster.com/2016/7/25/12270400/chris-sale-trade-red-sox-white-sox-eduardo-rodriguez-david-price

I think the rotation is set. The Red Sox need to focus on C (I would trade Swihart and something else for Lucroy), LF (return B.Holt to his utility role), and relief pitcher (only if they can find another B.Ziegler trade).

I would also seriously consider firing "pitching guru" John Farrell and Willis even at this juncture of the season. The pitching staff is underperforming--maybe the manager and pitching coach have something to do with that. . . .
That was a terrible piece.

If you have the chance to get the best pitcher in the AL on a team friendly contract you don't say "Well the rotation is pretty good."

I suppose the line I would draw in the sand in Moncada. But if it took Devers, Benintendi, ERod, and Kopech I would be packing their bags as we speak.
 

sean1562

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Over the last few years, hasn't David Price been the best pitcher in the AL? I think my biggest worry about trading away all of our prospects is the idea that Sale's arm could blow at any time. If David Price doesn't revert back to an ace pitcher I don't think this team gets very far in the playoffs anyway. And if he does revert back to "the best pitcher in the AL", I would rather not enter this insane trade market. I would agree with some of the other posters, if they were really serious about getting Sale, why bother trading for Pomeranz? Why not keep Espinoza to throw into that package? A package of Espinoza, Devers, Swihart + would be more palatable than anything with Moncada and Benintendi.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Over the last few years, hasn't David Price been the best pitcher in the AL? I think my biggest worry about trading away all of our prospects is the idea that Sale's arm could blow at any time. If David Price doesn't revert back to an ace pitcher I don't think this team gets very far in the playoffs anyway. And if he does revert back to "the best pitcher in the AL", I would rather not enter this insane trade market. I would agree with some of the other posters, if they were really serious about getting Sale, why bother trading for Pomeranz? Why not keep Espinoza to throw into that package? A package of Espinoza, Devers, Swihart + would be more palatable than anything with Moncada and Benintendi.
I think the answer to the Pomeranz question is easy...whether they're serious or not about wanting Sale, there was and still is no guarantee that he's actually available absent an insanely stupid overpay. Meanwhile San Diego is openly dangling Pomeranz and for a semi-reasonable price (given the market). Better to get Pomeranz when they did and do something to improve the rotation than hold back Espinoza in the slim hope of trading him for Sale and being left with nothing come August 1.
 

soxhop411

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“@Sean_McAdam: Industry source: Red Sox trade conversations mostly centered around adding bullpen help and back-end starters to improve rotation depth.”
 

soxhop411

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“@jaysonst: Teams talking to Phillies about Jeremy Hellickson say they want ”one of your top 5 prospects“ - or they’ll keep him & take the draft pick”
 

Minneapolis Millers

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At some point your players have to perform. I don't want to overpay for "back end rotation depth" or another BP arm just because 90% of the current pitching staff is underperforming and the other half is hurt. I think DD has made the deals he's going to make. We just need to hope for positive regression from Price et al and a return to health from Kimbrel, Koji and company.
 

E5 Yaz

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“@jaysonst: Teams talking to Phillies about Jeremy Hellickson say they want ”one of your top 5 prospects“ - or they’ll keep him & take the draft pick”
This is bull. Regardless of how well he's pitching in a low-stress environment, the last thing the Phillies want to risk is his taking a qualifying offer and reverting to a pumpkin
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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This is bull. Regardless of how well he's pitching in a low-stress environment, the last thing the Phillies want to risk is his taking a qualifying offer and reverting to a pumpkin
Yeah, no kidding. What's the QO going to be this year, $18M or so? Hellboy grabs that in a heartbeat and nobody is going to give up a pick for him anyway.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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This is bull. Regardless of how well he's pitching in a low-stress environment, the last thing the Phillies want to risk is his taking a qualifying offer and reverting to a pumpkin
Particularly in light of this...

Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN
Sources: The current estimate is that the qualifying offer for MLB free agents will jump from $15.8m last winter to $16.7m this winter.
 

moondog80

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This is bull. Regardless of how well he's pitching in a low-stress environment, the last thing the Phillies want to risk is his taking a qualifying offer and reverting to a pumpkin
The Phillies have the capacity for a pretty large payroll and only 24 mil committed in salary for 2017. Giving Hellickson 16.7 mil on a one-year deal is almost zero risk in terms of harming their rebuilding, and it might give them a pretty nice trade chip at next year's deadline. If he stays in Philly this year and continues with his level of performance, giving him the QO is a no-brainer. What else are they going to spend the money on?
 

opes

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That was a terrible piece.

If you have the chance to get the best pitcher in the AL on a team friendly contract you don't say "Well the rotation is pretty good."

I suppose the line I would draw in the sand in Moncada. But if it took Devers, Benintendi, ERod, and Kopech I would be packing their bags as we speak.
Yea I was going to say the same as Tric. If you think Rodriguez is going to make a turn around by the playoffs and pitch like Sale, you are delusional. Theres no reason either to worry about a catcher. We have 4 or them.
 

E5 Yaz

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The Phillies have the capacity for a pretty large payroll and only 24 mil committed in salary for 2017. Giving Hellickson 16.7 mil on a one-year deal is almost zero risk in terms of harming their rebuilding, and it might give them a pretty nice trade chip at next year's deadline. If he stays in Philly this year and continues with his level of performance, giving him the QO is a no-brainer. What else are they going to spend the money on?
If they're so enamored of him, they can trade him now and resign him in the offseason
 

moondog80

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If they're so enamored of him, they can trade him now and resign him in the offseason
If he finishes the year they way he started it, there's zero chance they could sign him to a one-year deal for 16.7 mil on the open market.
 

Harry Hooper

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^ These are the two reasons why you might as well try another pitching coach at least midseason.

It probably barely matters but it can't hurt to have a change, and there's enough sample size to say Willis doesn't bring any intangibles.
It can't hurt? Maybe Porcello goes off the rails again if Willis departs.
 

moondog80

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http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-trade-rumors-hall-of-fame-and-more-notes-from-july/

Boston was in to inquire about Davis, but the Red Sox have let other teams know they will not discuss four players: Yoan Moncada, Andrew Benintendi, Michael Kopech and Rafael Devers.
What's the best offer they could put together without any of those guys (and Bogaerts/Betts/Bradley)? Swihart + Shaw (move Hill to 3B) + E-Rod? That gets you more than Espinosa just did, or less?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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What's the best offer they could put together without any of those guys (and Bogaerts/Betts/Bradley)? Swihart + Shaw (move Hill to 3B) + E-Rod? That gets you more than Espinosa just did, or less?
I don't think it really matters whether it is more or less than Espinoza brought back if it's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Shipping out those three guys hurts the depth on the current big league roster, so whatever they get back has to be equivalent or better than what they can and will contribute. In other words, they better get a starting pitcher equal or better than Rodriguez, a corner infielder equal or better than Shaw, and a third player who can competently play either the outfield or catcher in return or they've gained nothing.
 

soxhop411

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I'm guessing a package deal
“@jcrasnick: The #Brewers Jonathan Lucroy talks are intensifying. Offers getting more serious. Momentum building toward a trade by the deadline.”

“@jcrasnick: #Rangers, #Indians, #Astros, #Mets, #Redsox have been mentioned in Lucroy mix. And believe it or not, there appears to be a ”mystery team.‘’”
 

BoSoxFink

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Why a catcher? Unless it's a 3-team deal for some pitching, I don't get it...
They probably don't trust Leon to keep this up, and I don't think any trade they made would be for just Lucroy. My guess is they would also aim to get a bullpen arm from them too.

I don't want Dave to make anymore trades there. Team isn't good enough. Keep the prospects
 

TonyPenaNeverJuiced

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Why a catcher? Unless it's a 3-team deal for some pitching, I don't get it...
Because Lucroy's $5.25m option for 2017 is a no-brainer over Hannigan's $3.75m, and you have to think Vaz or Swi are going to the Brewers in that situation. The one not traded spells Lucroy, but starts when he DH's (and he's played some 1B). [This is now off topic, sorry, but here hasn't been a general rumors thread yet this season...]
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

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They probably don't trust Leon to keep this up, and I don't think any trade they made would be for just Lucroy. My guess is they would also aim to get a bullpen arm from them too.

I don't want Dave to make anymore trades there. Team isn't good enough. Keep the prospects
I can understand that, he doesn't exactly have a track record that says he can keep it up but at the same time we already did the "change the catcher" strategy this year. I think at this point I'm coming around to the stand pat mindset. I really don't think a trade will change enough, it really feels like there's a deeper problem with this team that can't be fixed in-season
 

jtn46

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I agree they won't go after him but other than Cleveland and Texas who really is going to spend on a catcher?
Mets? I think the price for Lucroy will be very high, he would upgrade this team but if they give up chips to get Lucroy it takes them out of acquiring anything else which is OK, but if they're not going to fix the pitching in a trade, why do anything big?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Who during the rest of the season is going to have more value? Sale or Lucroy ? Pretty obvious answer. We can make due with the catchers we have. An upgrade at SP will increase our chances for the post-season.
I think that Sale probably would be more valuable than Lucroy, but Dave Cameron lately made an interesting pitch that Lucroy could be more valuable than a pitching addition (though I doubt he considered Sale available at the time). To sum up his point, adding a good hitter to an already good lineup is more valuable than adding him to a bad one, since there are likely more people on base when he hits or he is on base when the other hitters are at the plate. (I'm having trouble finding the link, but it was posted in one of the various threads).

Personally I think any further assets going out should be used on bullpen help. C is fine and they can call up AB for LF shortly. I think the rotation will ultimately be more than adequate and Price/Wright/Porcello are a good start to a playoff rotation. I also think Pomeranz and ERod will be fine.

Not to stir the pot, but if they continue this slide and have a terrible road trip, I'd rather see them fire Farrell as an attempt to light a fire as opposed to shipping out half the farm for Sale.
 

simplicio

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With the bullpen giving up runs like it has the last couple weeks, it almost doesn't matter who the starter is. Need one more shut down arm there.
 

RedOctober3829

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The tweet about the top 4 prospects could be misleading. Negotiations won't become serious until this weekend as the deadline comes closer. DD is unpredictable and I wouldn't rule out anything even if he says those guys are "untouchable".
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

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At this point if they're gonna make any trades, I think the move will be to get a LF. Think the cost of getting another starting pitcher *who will be an upgrade over what we already have* will be too high so for better or worse, this is probably how we roll the rest of the year.
 

grimshaw

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I think that Sale probably would be more valuable than Lucroy, but Dave Cameron lately made an interesting pitch that Lucroy could be more valuable than a pitching addition (though I doubt he considered Sale available at the time). To sum up his point, adding a good hitter to an already good lineup is more valuable than adding him to a bad one, since there are likely more people on base when he hits or he is on base when the other hitters are at the plate. (I'm having trouble finding the link, but it was posted in one of the various threads).
Sale is obviously the no-doubt upgrade, but I read that article too and couldn't agree more. Wins are wins no matter where you get them from, and he is also a stud defender. Leon can go nowhere but down the rest of the way, so maybe you counteract his regression with adding Lucroy. And I don't think Lucroy nets the Brewers Benintendi (who can possibly also help the team this year, which I haven't heard mentioned as a reason against trading him yet) or Moncada.