Pitching Targets

[FanSinceBoggs]

Perhaps the Red Sox should pursue the opposite approach. Instead of targeting pitchers, the Red Sox should now take advantage of the SP market and deal a starting pitcher.

So many teams want a starting pitcher; a few teams will fail to acquire one. Henry Owens has major league experience and is coming off a strong AAA start (one hit, 2 walks in 7.2 innings). Shop Owens for either (1) a high upside prospect at the lower levels, or, (2) strengthen the lineup by acquiring a LF and LHB, an eventual platoon partner for C.Young. Holt returns to his super-utility role.

Brian Johnson is another possibility if he can string together a few impressive starts prior to the trade deadline.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

1) a high upside prospect in lower levels probably can be acquired in the offseason for the guys that weren't deemed worthy of a start when the big league club was desperate for innings.

2) the lineup is fine and they have AB they can bring up soon if they feel they need a LHB.

On top of that, it's not "all good now". They can't afford to move anyone that could possibly provide innings as a SP from the minor leagues. As stated by there, they should explore if anyone is interested in acquiring Clay for, well, anything, in the attempt to fix him. He sucks but his history and option do have value to get a lotto ticket at least.

 

[UncleStinkfinger]

Red Sox Stats‏@redsoxstats
Red Sox after a Brewers relief pitcher per the New York Daily News. Lots to like there between Smith, Jeffress, Thornburg, Martinez, Barnes.

 

[johnnywayback]

A Swihart-plus for Lucroy-and-Smith deal could be pretty appealing if they've truly given up on Swihart as a long-term catcher. Helps the offense and gives us a late-innings lefty right away, gives us another year-plus to see if Vazquez can hit (if not, we extend Lucroy and Vazquez is the long-term backup), and Smith can be part of the bullpen after Koji and Tazawa are gone.

 

[grimshaw]

Lucroy is making 4mill this year and 5.2 next year. It would be hard to see the Brewers not getting a blue chip headliner for him and a reliever. I don't think Swihart is considered a blue chipper anymore. My guess is they'd ask for Kopech or Devers first.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Jon Heyman @jonheyman
Hill is terrific, but blisters continue to dog him. red sox look smart to jump on pomeranz.

Shi Davidi @shidavidi
Five pitches in and Rich Hill is done. Released a four-seamer and started looking at his finger.

 

[soxhop411]

And his previous start was pushed to today because of that blister.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Just watched Billy Butler go down the line on a grounder to short. Tulo did 3 crow hops and still got him by 20 feet (would hate for a trade with the A's to include Butler).

 

[johnnywayback]

Lucroy is making 4mill this year and 5.2 next year. It would be hard to see the Brewers not getting a blue chip headliner for him and a reliever. I don't think Swihart is considered a blue chipper anymore. My guess is they'd ask for Kopech or Devers first.

Maybe! We don't know. But in some other thread, someone held up the Victor Martinez trade as a comp for a potential Lucroy deal, and the package we gave up then translates roughly to something like Owens/Ball/Raudes. Swihart for Smith would be way too much, so I was thinking that Swihart and two of those pitchers (or even one of them plus a smaller third piece) might be a plenty reasonable offer for the pair. But who knows.

 

[Rasputin]

Maybe! We don't know. But in some other thread, someone held up the Victor Martinez trade as a comp for a potential Lucroy deal, and the package we gave up then translates roughly to something like Owens/Ball/Raudes. Swihart for Smith would be way too much, so I was thinking that Swihart and two of those pitchers (or even one of them plus a smaller third piece) might be a plenty reasonable offer for the pair. But who knows.

I gotta be honest, I think I'd make that trade right the fuck now, and try to expand it to get a reliever as a couple folks have previously mentioned.

We'd have by far the best lineup, a solid bullpen, and if Pomeranz is for real and Rodiguez has things straightened out, a solid rotation as well. We'd be the best team in baseball and almost all the pieces would be locked up for a couple more years.

 

[Marciano490]

Don't kill me, but anyone think Matt Shoemaker from LAA could be interesting? He's 29 and arbitration eligible next year. He was dominant two years ago, terrible last year and the beginning of this year, but seems to be on track again. He still gives up a bit too many homers and hard contact, but has a 5:1 k:bb ratio and just over 9k/IP and is a workhorse. Supposedly some of his success this year is due to throwing his splitter more than just about anyone else.

 

[Lowrielicious]

Don't kill me, but anyone think Matt Shoemaker from LAA could be interesting? He's 29 and arbitration eligible next year. He was dominant two years ago, terrible last year and the beginning of this year, but seems to be on track again. He still gives up a bit too many homers and hard contact, but has a 5:1 k:bb ratio and just over 9k/IP and is a workhorse. Supposedly some of his success this year is due to throwing his splitter more than just about anyone else.

I think you might be underselling that point.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-angels-have-had-a-month-of-clayton-kershaw/

"Over the past few weeks, spanning five starts, Matt Shoemaker has allowed a .516 OPS. He’s walked one of 144 batters, while striking out 48. Now, Clayton Kershaw, Matt Shoemaker ain’t. Through the season’s first six starts, Shoemaker had allowed more than a run per inning. He was horrible! Now he’s Kershaw. He’s not really Kershaw, but, it makes you wonder, what’s the significance of looking like Kershaw for such a stretch of time?"

Two not great starts prior to the break against redsox and orioles, but 6 hit, 0 BB, 13 K shutout of whitesox yesterday.

 

[soxhop411]

“@Buster_ESPN: Oakland's asking price for the Red Sox for Rich Hill was the same as San Diego's for Drew Pomeranz: Anderson Espinoza.”

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I gotta be honest, I think I'd make that trade right the fuck now, and try to expand it to get a reliever as a couple folks have previously mentioned.

I'd make it too, but I'm not convinced the Brewers would. And I'm not sure the comps are valid. Owens was a more highly touted prospect than Masterson had been before hitting the majors, but Masterson had had far more MLB success. The Indians could feel pretty confident they were getting a guy who could slot into their rotation immediately and pitch respectably. Can you say that about Owens? And I'm not sure Raudes is quite a match for Hagadone's value at the time of that trade either (kind of apples-and-oranges, though; Raudes is younger and more of a lottery ticket).

The Brewers don't seem to have much catching talent on the farm, so I strongly suspect they'd want Swihart. Would we be OK with that? And what else would be required to seal the deal (I don't think Swihart one-up gets it done)?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Can we really talk about Swihart as a viable trade chip in a deadline deal while he's still on the DL? Last I read, he's on track to begin a rehab assignment next weekend, but the talk is they're in no hurry to put him behind the plate and he'll be playing the outfield while rehabbing, at least initially. That's more of a health choice than a reflection of his catching abilities, but if he's to be a key piece in a deal for Lucroy, I would expect part of the appeal is to be able to immediately insert Swihart in Lucroy's place. If he's not healthy enough to do that, I'm not sure he's the chip that gets it done whether we're okay with moving him or not.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

Can we really talk about Swihart as a viable trade chip in a deadline deal while he's still on the DL? Last I read, he's on track to begin a rehab assignment next weekend, but the talk is they're in no hurry to put him behind the plate and he'll be playing the outfield while rehabbing, at least initially. That's more of a health choice than a reflection of his catching abilities, but if he's to be a key piece in a deal for Lucroy, I would expect part of the appeal is to be able to immediately insert Swihart in Lucroy's place. If he's not healthy enough to do that, I'm not sure he's the chip that gets it done whether we're okay with moving him or not.

Why would this be the case? If they move Lucroy and relievers, their already gone season gets worse. It's not like they are making the deal to make a push for the WC. I'd assume they would send him down to save the service time anyway and treat it like acquiring a prospect - which he essentially is.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Why would this be the case? If they move Lucroy and relievers, their already gone season gets worse. It's not like they are making the deal to make a push for the WC. I'd assume they would send him down to save the service time anyway and treat it like acquiring a prospect - which he essentially is.

I think it's more a matter of any team trading for Swiharet wanting to see how he comes back from the injury. yes, they'd see him as a major part for next year; but you have to see how healthy he is

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

Swihart for Lucroy makes a ton of sense for the Brewers. It allows them to hit reset at that position with a high upside guy who's controllable for 5-6 years. For Boston, it'd be a similar deal as the Pomeranz-Espinoza trade, but with some key - and, for me, troubling - differences:

- Lucroy isn't controllable for as long as Pomeranz.
- Catcher isn't as big an area of need as SP right now (Leon!), and certainly not into the future (SwihartVaz).
- Catcher doesn't seem like an easy position to switch horses on mid-season. Even though Lucroy is good defensively, I have concerns about a possibly less-than-seamless transition in the catcher-pitching staff relationship.
- Swihart looks like he can hit MLB pitching. Even if he doesn't stick at catcher, he's versatile and skilled enough to play good MLB-caliber defense somewhere (LF, etc.). So his floor/bust potential seems far less than Espinosa's.

Upshot: I wouldn't deal Swihart for Lucroy.

 

[smastroyin]

I'm just going to point out that I'm on team "it's going to cost more than Owens and a couple of A ball guys for LuCroy"

Several reasons:
- The Sox obtained VMart at a point where the Indians already had decided he couldn't be a full-time catcher, and he was coming off a fairly bad injury plagued year and after a hot start in 2009 he was pretty bad other than HR power for a month and then completely awful for a month before the trade.
- Masterson had already demonstrated more positive results in the majors than Owens (or any of the Sox AAA guys other than Rodriguez I guess) has. Yes, there were holes, but he was fairly dominant his rookie year and there was a belief that his suppressed BABIP was a result of his pitch mix. In 2009 his traditional results were worse but his peripherals were all better. I just don't think you can call Owens or Matt Barnes or something a comp except using liberal hindsight of what Masterson became and even then only remember the bad parts (meaning that at this point I'd be thrilled if Henry Owens had Masterson's pre-FA career, and so would the Red Sox)
- Hagadone was a former first round pick (ok supplemental - #55 overall) who had pitched really well in the minors despite a high BB rate thanks to his also high K rate. Again, hindsight gives us a ton of information, but he was a high value piece at the time, and was on BP (91) and BA (44) top 100 lists the off-season after the trade. Maybe that is comparable to Raudes? I guess it depends on how much you value results vs. stuff because the reason nobody knows about Raudes is that his stuff is largely thought to not be projectable.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Swihart for Lucroy makes a ton of sense for the Brewers. It allows them to hit reset at that position with a high upside guy who's controllable for 5-6 years. For Boston, it'd be a similar deal as the Pomeranz-Espinoza trade, but with some key - and, for me, troubling - differences:

- Lucroy isn't controllable for as long as Pomeranz.
- Catcher isn't as big an area of need as SP right now (Leon!), and certainly not into the future (SwihartVaz).
- Catcher doesn't seem like an easy position to switch horses on mid-season. Even though Lucroy is good defensively, I have concerns about a possibly less-than-seamless transition in the catcher-pitching staff relationship.
- Swihart looks like he can hit MLB pitching. Even if he doesn't stick at catcher, he's versatile and skilled enough to play good MLB-caliber defense somewhere (LF, etc.). So his floor/bust potential seems far less than Espinosa's.

Upshot: I wouldn't deal Swihart for Lucroy.

I will admit that for some reason I had it in my head that Lucroy was a 2018 FA, not 2017. I agree that Swihart, even alone, is too much for a two-month Lucroy rental. And given that he's a rental, it doesn't really make sense to swap a C prospect for him even if that's what Milwaukee wants.

On the flip side, that also means Lucroy has less trade value than VMart, who had a year of team control left after 2009. So maybe that Owens/Raudes/? deal makes sense after all.

Never mind. Someday I will learn to read.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I will admit that for some reason I had it in my head that Lucroy was a 2018 FA, not 2017. I agree that Swihart, even alone, is too much for a two-month Lucroy rental. And given that he's a rental, it doesn't really make sense to swap a C prospect for him even if that's what Milwaukee wants.

On the flip side, that also means Lucroy has less trade value than VMart, who had a year of team control left after 2009. So maybe that Owens/Raudes/? deal makes sense after all.

Lucroy has a team option for 2017 for $5.25M, so he isn't exactly a two-month rental. He's a year-and-two-months rental for a reasonable price. Given that he's still defensibly viable, cheaper, and younger than VMart was in 2009, I'd say he's more valuable than VMart and will cost more comparatively.

I forget which thread it was I pointed this out, but catcher should not be a priority for the team at the moment. While offensively they aren't getting all star production (Leon's hot streak notwithstanding), they aren't exactly in dire need of more offense right now. Defense and handling the pitching staff should be the priority for the remainder of the year, and they've got that covered between Leon, Hanigan and Vazquez.

If they're going to expend more prospect resources, regardless of who they are trading, it would be better spent on pitching at the moment.

 

[nothumb]

Lucroy has a team option for 2017 for $5.25M, so he isn't exactly a two-month rental. He's a year-and-two-months rental for a reasonable price. Given that he's still defensibly viable, cheaper, and younger than VMart was in 2009, I'd say he's more valuable than VMart and will cost more comparatively.

I forget which thread it was I pointed this out, but catcher should not be a priority for the team at the moment. While offensively they aren't getting all star production (Leon's hot streak notwithstanding), they aren't exactly in dire need of more offense right now. Defense and handling the pitching staff should be the priority for the remainder of the year, and they've got that covered between Leon, Hanigan and Vazquez.

If they're going to expend more prospect resources, regardless of who they are trading, it would be better spent on pitching at the moment.

Yup. Lucroy has a good rep but you have to wonder how he would transition to a whole new group of pitchers, different organizational approach, etc... all mid-season. It's a solution in search of a problem.

We could use a reliever if the price is right, and possibly a LHH LF... but other than that, let's go.

 

[YTF]

Can we really talk about Swihart as a viable trade chip in a deadline deal while he's still on the DL? Last I read, he's on track to begin a rehab assignment next weekend, but the talk is they're in no hurry to put him behind the plate and he'll be playing the outfield while rehabbing, at least initially. That's more of a health choice than a reflection of his catching abilities, but if he's to be a key piece in a deal for Lucroy, I would expect part of the appeal is to be able to immediately insert Swihart in Lucroy's place. If he's not healthy enough to do that, I'm not sure he's the chip that gets it done whether we're okay with moving him or not.

The guy isn't arb eligible until 2018 and not FA eligible until 2022. The Brewers aren't going anywhere, they can wait for Swihart to get healthy and I'm guessing that his injury (sprained ankle) isn't going to derail his career. If they value Swihart there seems to be little risk as far as the injury goes. The point you make at the end of your post might be used to try to leverage the Sox into sweetening the pot

 

[benhogan]

Red Sox Stats‏@redsoxstats
Red Sox after a Brewers relief pitcher per the New York Daily News. Lots to like there between Smith, Jeffress, Thornburg, Martinez, Barnes.

I'm fine with Leon, Hannigan, Swihart, Vaz for catcher.

My interest lies in a LH reliever. Will Smith would be a nice replacement for RRJr. or Layne ... Plus we'd have another two years of Will Smith to soften the Koji/Taz departure at year end.

I'd offer one of: RRJr. or Layne +
any one of: Brentz, Kyle Martin, Jeff Rutledge, Noe Ramirez, Justin Haley +
a fully subsidized Buchholz

Before you blast it saying "not a chance the Brewers do that" Clay & his 1yr option could be worth more then Will Smith alone if he turns it around. RRJr has 2 more arb years. Layne has 4 more arb years. All the AAAA players listed may just need an opportunity at the big league level and have had some success at the AAA level. If you are the Brewers you want as many serviceable/controllable players you can find for a relief pitcher, who has thrown 17 innings this year.

If thats not enough and we need to get creative maybe we pack Hannigan ++ for Will Smith (if the Brewers are dealing Lecroy)


On another note:
After the Pomeranz deal this team is set for years to come as far as pitching is concerned. No need to dip into free agency or deal any of our top prospects.

Starter Pitchers under control for the next 3 seasons: Price, Wright, Pomeranz, Porcello, Edro Farm: Owens, SOS, Elias, Johnson. Potentially Kopech in 2018.

Bullpen next few seasons: Kimbrel, Joe Kelly, Carson Smith, Barnes, Hembree, Layne, RRJr. Potentially: Workman, Light, Shepherd, Kyle Martin.

 

[YTF]

I have a suspicion that IF the Brewers see the Sox as a trade partner for Lecroy, Hannigan is likely to be the last of the four catching options that they are looking to take back. Just as you see RR and Layne as having value because they have some level of controllability, I've a feeling that any conversation about Lecroy is going to include the very controllable Swihart or Vasquez. Even if the Sox aren't dealing for Lecroy, the Brewers are still likely to be asking for more than Hannigan as his replacement.

 

[YTF]

On another note:
After the Pomeranz deal this team is set for years to come as far as pitching is concerned. No need to dip into free agency or deal any of our top prospects.

Starter Pitchers under control for the next 3 seasons: Price, Wright, Pomeranz, Porcello, Edro Farm: Owens, SOS, Elias, Johnson. Potentially Kopech in 2018.

Bullpen next few seasons: Kimbrel, Joe Kelly, Carson Smith, Barnes, Hembree, Layne, RRJr. Potentially: Workman, Light, Shepherd, Kyle Martin.

You my friend are a very optimistic person. I don't know that the verdict is fully in on Price yet. I mean he's much better than most anything that the Sox were trotting out there every fifth day last year, but he's not the dominate David Price that the Sox hoped he would be to this point. Edro is still unproven and Owens, SOS, Elias and Johnson are in large part the reason that The Sox had to part with their #1 pitching prospect to get Pomeranz. Kelly is still a work in progress, Smith just had Tommy John surgery and though I didn't highlight the rest of your bullpen options, it wouldn't surprise if a couple of them aren't around "for years to come". These are guys that we have looked at on paper and have said to ourselves, "Yeah this doesn't look too bad.", but to date haven't worked out as well as we might like as a collective group.

 

[UncleStinkfinger]

There isn't anyway Braun would be involved? Lecroy, Braun, Smith for ? Part of me says lets just go all in..

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Why would you want to take on that contract for the next 4+ years, especially with Benintendi not that far away?
If the team wants to commit that type of money to a hitter, I'd much rather wait for the offseason and give it to EE.

 

[grimshaw]

I'm fine with Leon, Hannigan, Swihart, Vaz for catcher.

My interest lies in a LH reliever. Will Smith would be a nice replacement for RRJr. or Layne ... Plus we'd have another two years of Will Smith to soften the Koji/Taz departure at year end.

I'd offer one of: RRJr. or Layne +
any one of: Brentz, Kyle Martin, Jeff Rutledge, Noe Ramirez, Justin Haley +
a fully subsidized Buchholz

Before you blast it saying "not a chance the Brewers do that" Clay & his 1yr option could be worth more then Will Smith alone if he turns it around. RRJr has 2 more arb years. Layne has 4 more arb years. All the AAAA players listed may just need an opportunity at the big league level and have had some success at the AAA level. If you are the Brewers you want as many serviceable/controllable players you can find for a relief pitcher, who has thrown 17 innings this year.

If thats not enough and we need to get creative maybe we pack Hannigan ++ for Will Smith (if the Brewers are dealing Lecroy)

1) The Brewers will have no interest at all in any of those players. They are rebuilding and need young returns with actual upside. Rebuilding teams don't worry about their bullpens. Any of those second and third pieces are the types of guys you invite to spring training or sign to minor league contracts.

2) They don't need a garbage pitcher like Clay Garza, they need prospects. I do think Clay gets moved, but the type of teams fishing are contenders looking to catch lightning in a bottle.

3) The upgrade from Robby Ross to Smith is not going to make very much impact that it makes little sense on that level either. You keep Ross and add to what you already have if you want to improve the pen. Layne is good against lefties, so I don't see that he needs replacing, unless you move him in a separate deal.

4) Good relievers are going to fetch a lot. Not AAAA players.

 

[czar]

Why would you want to take on that contract for the next 4+ years, especially with Benintendi not that far away?
If the team wants to commit that type of money to a hitter, I'd much rather wait for the offseason and give it to EE.

I'm totally with you on not trading for Braun, but a lot has been made of his contract...

2017: $19M, 2018: $19M, 2019: $18M, 2020: $16M, 2021: $4M buyout ($15M option)

If he were to be a FA this year (at age 32), coming off seasons of 113, 129, and 128 wRC+ (0.7, 2.8, 2.5 fWAR (prorated)), my guess is he'd get somewhere in the neighborhood of 4/$60, maybe more (a one year younger and slightly worse hitting Alex Gordon got 4/$72 last year).

So 4/72 doesn't seem as much of an overpay as everyone claims it is. You could conceivably move Braun to 1B/DH if AB goes to LF (the 1B seems ambitious, but he did come up as a 3B). That said, if you are dying for a stick, I'd much rather see if I can spend big money on a mid-30's slugger who can't really play the field anymore and only commit a couple years (someone like JB or EE), just because I hate tying up the DH slot with big $$$$ with a big stick unless that stick is a really big stick (aka Ortiz). Having a dedicated DH is one of the reasons the HanRam and Pablo contracts look as bad as they do.

 

[benhogan]

1) The Brewers will have no interest at all in any of those players. They are rebuilding and need young returns with actual upside. Rebuilding teams don't worry about their bullpens. Any of those second and third pieces are the types of guys you invite to spring training or sign to minor league contracts.

2) They don't need a garbage pitcher like Clay Garza, they need prospects. I do think Clay gets moved, but the type of teams fishing are contenders looking to catch lightning in a bottle.

.

There may be more value there then you realize.

Low cost options are good, FREE options are great. Offering a 100% subsidized Clay is a FREE option to a non-contender. If he turns it around over the rest of the '16 season his '17 team option is a good low cost option for a Starter. It can be picked up and he can be penciled into the Brewers staff next season, or dealt for prospects in the off-season, or dealt during the 2017 season.

I wouldn't expect a contender to gamble on giving Clay starts because: (a)Clay may just suck and cost you games in a playoff chase AND (b) Clay is a twitchy fella and needs to rebuild his confidence in a low pressure environment.

I'm not into DFA-ing Clay, as I see him as 'starter injury insurance', he probably still ranks as our 6th or 7th best starter (SOS?). But if the Sox can add a useful piece like a Will Smith (MIL), Abad (MINN), Buchter (SD), Doolittle (OAK) then those out of contention/low pressure teams may want to exploit a FREE option like a 100% subsidized Clay.

ALSO adding in controllable, cheap, decent players are needed by low budget teams to fill out their 40 man roster. Martin, Ramirez and Haley are having good seasons at Pawtucket, they probably won't get a chance here but could see appearances in September for an out of contention team. We all know the list of players, written off by the Sox in the past as minor league fodder, that have found success elsewhere.

Otherwise I agree with you that the spread between RRJr/Layne and the LH relievers I listed isn't great enough to offer up any of our top rated prospects.

 

[grimshaw]

There may be more value there then you realize.

Low cost options are good, FREE options are great. Offering a 100% subsidized Clay is a FREE option to a non-contender. If he turns it around over the rest of the '16 season his '17 team option is a good low cost option for a Starter. It can be picked up and he can be penciled into the Brewers staff next season, or dealt for prospects in the off-season, or dealt during the 2017 season.

Bradford mentioned the Dodgers and Marlins as teams who have asked about Clay on the radio yesterday. In the NL as a 5th starter maybe they roll the dice. I'd be really surprised if he went to a non-contender and definitely don't think he'll be DFA'd.

And in a vacuum yes, there is obvious value in subsidizing his contract, but it would hard to picture anything resembling those players beating out other offers for a set up guy. All of those AAA guys you mentioned are eminently available for just about nothing.

 

[soxhop411]

Scary.”

That is the word righthander Anderson Espinoza used in talking to reporters in Fort Wayne, Ind., about the shock of being traded last week to the Padres (remarks that were translated by a teammate and captured by WANE).

“It was scary because I didn’t know what was going on,” Espinoza said. “I said, ‘Oh my God — what is going to happen to me now? After talking to my agent and my family, they said every change is for you to be better. It’s going to be better for your life and your career, so I started feeling a little bit better with that and I started to get happy because I know this trade is going to be big for me and give me a big chance to be in the big leagues.”

That may well be the case, but that initial reaction does represent something of a change in the organizational landscape. And there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that the Espinoza-for-Drew Pomeranz deal is something other than an isolated incident, in a way that may fundamentally alter the experience of coming up in the Red Sox system.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2016/07/19/prospect-movement-part-red-sox-changing-landscape/YlFQJWJacIdJyKNnd4nbCJ/story.html

More at the link.

 

[UncleStinkfinger]

Why would you want to take on that contract for the next 4+ years, especially with Benintendi not that far away?
If the team wants to commit that type of money to a hitter, I'd much rather wait for the offseason and give it to EE.

Yeah, you're right. It's expensive. That's an absurd lineup for Papi's last run though.

 

[j44thor]

The idea of

There may be more value there then you realize.

Low cost options are good, FREE options are great. Offering a 100% subsidized Clay is a FREE option to a non-contender. If he turns it around over the rest of the '16 season his '17 team option is a good low cost option for a Starter. It can be picked up and he can be penciled into the Brewers staff next season, or dealt for prospects in the off-season, or dealt during the 2017 season.

I wouldn't expect a contender to gamble on giving Clay starts because: (a)Clay may just suck and cost you games in a playoff chase AND (b) Clay is a twitchy fella and needs to rebuild his confidence in a low pressure environment.

I'm not into DFA-ing Clay, as I see him as 'starter injury insurance', he probably still ranks as our 6th or 7th best starter (SOS?). But if the Sox can add a useful piece like a Will Smith (MIL), Abad (MINN), Buchter (SD), Doolittle (OAK) then those out of contention/low pressure teams may want to exploit a FREE option like a 100% subsidized Clay.

ALSO adding in controllable, cheap, decent players are needed by low budget teams to fill out their 40 man roster. Martin, Ramirez and Haley are having good seasons at Pawtucket, they probably won't get a chance here but could see appearances in September for an out of contention team. We all know the list of players, written off by the Sox in the past as minor league fodder, that have found success elsewhere.

Otherwise I agree with you that the spread between RRJr/Layne and the LH relievers I listed isn't great enough to offer up any of our top rated prospects.

If Clay pitches well for 1/2 a season that just means he pitched well for half a season. He needs to convince someone that he can pitch well for a whole season before the option becomes valuable.

This idea that Clay has meaningful value has to stop. He is currently one of the worst pitchers in MLB and a non-contender isn't going to offer anything of value to find out if he can become good again. If he was DFA'd someone would give him a shot but that doesn't mean they are offering anything remotely interesting to take that gamble. Clay is basically Matt Latos without being an asshole. Chicago didn't find a taker for Latos so I have a hard time envisioning a market for Clay.

 

[Lowrielicious]

Gray getting knocked around for 7 earned through 5 by the mighty Rays offense today. ERA up to 5.49.

So glad DD didn't back the prospects truck up for this guy

 

[TimScribble]

Can we trade Clay for him?

 

[soxhop411]

The White are being inundated with calls of interest in ace Chris Sale, who may be the best pitcher in the American League, and All-Star left-hander Jose Quintana on the day after it became public that they are contemplating a serious sale.

The Red Sox, who already have made four trades, are said by some insiders to be greatly interested in the star pitchers, especially Sale, but the list of interested suitors is expected to be extremely long.

The Red Sox have indeed checked in with Chicago. Closer David Robertson could fit Boston as well, considering two of their best relievers are on the disabled list at the moment.

“@KnuckleballFRS: Per @JonHeyman, the #WhiteSox are taking calls on Sale and Quintana, with many — #RedSox included — interested: https://t.co/voEMB6tzUo

 

[RedOctober3829]

Red Sox are in on Sale, Quintana, and possibly David Robertson per Heyman. Nothing imminent with any pitcher.

http://www.todaysknuckleball.com/knuckleball-news/white-sox-taking-calls-on-sale-quintana-with-red-sox-among-suitors/

 

[BrooklynDog45]

Red Sox are in on Sale, Quintana, and possibly David Robertson per Heyman. Nothing imminent with any pitcher.

http://www.todaysknuckleball.com/knuckleball-news/white-sox-taking-calls-on-sale-quintana-with-red-sox-among-suitors/

Too bad we don't have Espinoza for this potential deal.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

Too bad we don't have Espinoza for this potential deal.

But we do have Pomeranz, who gives you more leverage in negotiation since you're no longer desperate for another starter.

I still think Sale is a pipe dream, you're not getting him without starting with Moncada and throwing in quite a bit more. I'm really curious what the White Sox are asking for Robertson, though.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Sale is a pipe dream but I'd be all over David Robertson. He's owed roughly $30 million over the next 2.5 years. A bullpen of Ross, Tazawa, Barnes, Ziegler, Robertson, and Kimbrel going down the stretch would be amazing.

 

[Laser Show]

But we do have Pomeranz, who gives you more leverage in negotiation since you're no longer desperate for another starter.

I still think Sale is a pipe dream, you're not getting him without starting with Moncada and throwing in quite a bit more. I'm really curious what the White Sox are asking for Robertson, though.

I know Moncada is a lot to give up. And I don't want to. And it's painful.

But... if they got Sale they'd have a Price Sale Pomeranz Porcello Wright rotation locked up for the next few years of Mookie X JBJ. That's awfully tempting.

 

[Adrian's Dome]

I know Moncada is a lot to give up. And I don't want to. And it's painful.

But... if they got Sale they'd have a Price Sale Pomeranz Porcello Wright rotation locked up for the next few years of Mookie X JBJ. That's awfully tempting.

The thing is, can Sale be gotten for just Moncada? I'd probably be okay with that, but what if it's Moncada+?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I'm not a fan of Sale something about him screams TJ in the future. Moncada looks like the next great young player. Do not want to trade that.

 

[RedOctober3829]

The thing is, can Sale be gotten for just Moncada? I'd probably be okay with that, but what if it's Moncada+?

No way does Sale just cost Moncada. If you could get Sale would anybody consider trading 1 of the B's mainly Bradley? If you had to include Bradley to avoid trading both Moncada and Benintendi would you do it? I also wonder if Chicago is dead serious on selling off all parts if they'd just make a team take Robertson because of the $30 million or so owed to him the next 2.5 years.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Sale is a pipe dream but I'd be all over David Robertson. He's owed roughly $30 million over the next 2.5 years. A bullpen of Ross, Tazawa, Barnes, Ziegler, Robertson, and Kimbrel going down the stretch would be amazing.

Robertson isn't having a particularly good year, though. His WHIP is 1.45, his K/9 down, and when I've seen him, his velocity doesn't seem to be anything special. I wouldn't give up much for him, especially with that salary.

I actually don't think that Sale is a pipe dream, if he could fetch Moncada as a centerpiece.

 

[Clears Cleaver]

You could trade pomeranz as part of a package for sale/robertson

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

You could trade pomeranz as part of a package for sale/robertson

If they're blowing it up I'm not sure Pomeranz would carry as much value to them with only two and change years control.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

If they're blowing it up I'm not sure Pomeranz would carry as much value to them with only two and change years control.

No, I'd guess they'd like Edro along with Moncada.