Poll: What should MLB do to punish the Astros' sign-stealing?

How shall you strike down with great vengeance and furious anger? Choose as many as you like.


  • Total voters
    129

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
You're Rob Manfred. It's a month from now, you've interviewed a ton of people, your staff has uncovered emails and texts, and there's no question anymore:
  1. The Astros wired their home field such that they could steal signs and communicate the results to batters before the pitch is delivered
  2. This resulted in a huge competitive advantage that road teams of course had no ability to fight or match, other than changing signs routinely
  3. They used this not just in 2017 but in 2018 and 2019 as well, including in the postseason, periodically when they needed it
  4. It was ordered, ultimately, by the GM Jeff Luhnow and front office, and put in place by the coaching staff and various operations teams, with the general awareness of the owner, Jim Crane, and of course the players were told what would be coming for them and to rely on it
  5. They also attempted to replicate some form of this in others' stadiums when they're on the road, though used less often
  6. They attempted to hide all of the above for the past few years, until Fiers blew the lid off it
  7. There are rumors about other teams doing similar, and evidence that some were decoding signs and/or trying to steal using just the players on the field, but nobody else is conclusively found to have set up electronic systems to do this in a high-tech, wholesale manner

What do you do in response? Or: Looking at Manfred from the outside, what are you personally hoping that he does, or think he should do?

(this is different than what you expect MLB / Manfred will do, but I only get one poll question and think it's easier to discuss people's own opinions than something unprovable about what someone else's actions will be)
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Honestly if they want to genuinely stop this kind of organizational misbehavior (not just sign stealing) in the future, they should force Crane to sell the team a la Donald Sterling in the NBA. I'm not sure if Manfred has that much power, though.
 

Wingack

Yankee Mod
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
34,360
In The Quivering Forest
I voted in favor of a lot of your suggestions because I think the punishment should be very severe to dissuade other teams from trying to do the same thing. If it isn't severe other teams will calculate whether it is worth doing or not and some may decide using tech to cheat is worth the gamble.

I also think an asterisk should maybe be placed on their 2017 championship. Not take it away, just as a way to signify "hey there was something fishy going on here."
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
Honestly if they want to genuinely stop this kind of organizational misbehavior (not just sign stealing) in the future, they should force Crane to sell the team a la Donald Sterling in the NBA. I'm not sure if Manfred has that much power, though.
Would likely require a vote by whatever they call the owners' committee. I don't have MLB's association agreement so I can't look up what margin is required but I'm sure it would be a high bar to clear. Has Crane (personally) caused as much damage to MLB as Sterling caused the NBA? I'm not sure, so long as it can't be shown that he orchestrated the misbehavior, and frankly he'd be an idiot to leave anything traceable to himself when he's got plenty of willing human sacrifices underneath him.
 

Moosbrugger

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
348
wrong side of the bay
I don't think the commissioner's office has an appetite for some of the more drastic menu choices listed here. Besides perhaps one sacrificial lamb to dangle to the public, I think the penalties will be strictly financial.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
Was Crane in on it? If not then he shouldn’t sell the team.
Let's assume the stipulations in the OP are in place: Crane was likely advised or made aware, at least indirectly, at some point, but was not a major pusher of it. So he could have put a stop to it, but didn't. Should MLB make him sell, in that instance?

Would be kinda ironic, after Crane spent two decades chasing the purchase of a franchise, for him to become the first owner forced to sell by a vote of the league.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
7,877
Boston, MA
I think you punish an illegal competitive advantage with a forced competitive disadvantage. Take away all their draft picks and international bonus money for a year. Then make any penalties for signing QO free agents apply the next season, so they don't get to avoid those.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Would likely require a vote by whatever they call the owners' committee. I don't have MLB's association agreement so I can't look up what margin is required but I'm sure it would be a high bar to clear. Has Crane (personally) caused as much damage to MLB as Sterling caused the NBA? I'm not sure, so long as it can't be shown that he orchestrated the misbehavior, and frankly he'd be an idiot to leave anything traceable to himself when he's got plenty of willing human sacrifices underneath him.
It's not just this, though, the whole Taubman situation in the middle of the World Series and the Astros' horrendous way of dealing with it, it just seems like they need to clean house and the only way to do that is a new owner.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
I think you punish an illegal competitive advantage with a forced competitive disadvantage. Take away all their draft picks and international bonus money for a year. Then make any penalties for signing QO free agents apply the next season, so they don't get to avoid those.

This is where I am mostly. Fine the owner, take away the draft picks and the international money. Suspend Luhnow for a year, Hinch until Memorial Day.
 

OCD SS

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Both the Yankees and Red Sox faced punishment over using electronics for sign stealing, and Manfred said that penalties for anyone else caught afterwards would be more severe, so he really has to come down harder on the Astros, but I don't think MLB has the authority for the drastic penalties mentioned that the NCAA/ NBA might, so it will just be an excercise of the options he has at his disposal: fines and the loss of draft picks and international signing money. I'd like to see Lunhow suspended as I don't think this is his first questionable action (the Cardinals hack supposedly came at a retaliation to the Astros own incursion), but that is likely dependent on what MLB has on him that they haven't made public (I'm assuming that MLB will try to keep as much as they can under wraps in order to keep the controversy contained).

I don't think they can suspend players or personnel who have moved on to other teams, which in fairness would keep Hinch on the field (otherwise I'd be fine with him being suspended as well). I hate the idea of officially sanctioned asterisks, that is just pointless shaming that smacks of "playing the game the right way" and "unwritten rules" nonsense.
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
Moderator
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2007
17,178
Washington
I'd give Crane the Steinbrenner treatment and suspend him from operational control of the team for a while too.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Both the Yankees and Red Sox faced punishment over using electronics for sign stealing
Just for accuracy, this isn't really true. The Red Sox were punished for using Apple Watches in the dugout but I don't think it was ever clear what exactly they were doing with them if anything, and NY was punished for unauthorized use of the dugout phone which was basically just a technicality as explained below.

“In the course of our investigation, however, we learned that during an earlier championship season (prior to 2017) the Yankees had violated a rule governing the use of the dugout phone,” the commissioner’s statement read. “No Club complained about the conduct in question at the time and, without prompting from another Club or my Office, the Yankees halted the conduct in question. Moreover, the substance of the communications that took place on the dugout phone was not a violation of any Rule or Regulation in and of itself. Rather, the violation occurred because the dugout phone technically cannot be used for such a communication.”
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,620
1 year postseason ban might cause a lot of movement on the trade market. Springer, Brantley, and Reddick immediately traded. Why keep Grienke and Verlander if they only have two seasons left? Even further why keep Correa? Essentially just forcing them to push their window out a year and giving them permission from their fanbase to do so. IDK i feel like that one is a bad idea.

edit: Lifetime ban for Luhnow, take some draft picks, and fine them tons of cash. He can be the sacrificial lamb, he is just a GM. Im sure he will land on his feet in some other industry, its not like he is a player that has dedicated his entire life to be a MLB star.

edit2: Yea, with Luhnow's resume, he will be fine in the business world. 5 years at McKinsey, an MBA from Northwestern, undergrad degree from Penn. Just toss the guy from the league
 

Rough Carrigan

reasons within Reason
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
1 year postseason ban might cause a lot of movement on the trade market. Springer, Brantley, and Reddick immediately traded. Why keep Grienke and Verlander if they only have two seasons left? Even further why keep Correa? Essentially just forcing them to push their window out a year and giving them permission from their fanbase to do so. IDK i feel like that one is a bad idea.

edit: Lifetime ban for Luhnow, take some draft picks, and fine them tons of cash. He can be the sacrificial lamb, he is just a GM. Im sure he will land on his feet in some other industry, its not like he is a player that has dedicated his entire life to be a MLB star.

edit2: Yea, with Luhnow's resume, he will be fine in the business world. 5 years at McKinsey, an MBA from Northwestern, undergrad degree from Penn. Just toss the guy from the league
The one thing that I feel pretty sure is NOT going to happen is a postseason ban. Why should fans show up for Astros games when they can't go to the postseason? We'd be pretty sure the 2020 Astros aren't cheating, so why can't they go to the playoffs? How will it look if the Astros can't go to the playoffs as, say, a 98 win team while an 84 win Rangers team does instead?

No way. This isn't college football.
 

Yelling At Clouds

Post-darwinian
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,405
As to the implied description of this as sort of unprecedented, we now know that the 1951 Giants had their own version of this.
I'm fairly certain the Cardinals have been doing something similar since the LaRussa years. It would certainly track with what we know: that ex-Cardinal Carlos Beltran was allegedly one of the players who suggested the scheme, and ex-Cardinals front office employee Jeff Luhnow at best tacitly condoned it. And the Cardinals are almost always better than they "should" be, and a bunch of washed-up players have gone to St. Louis only to find themselves suddenly rejuvenated, and non-prospects get called up only to find themselves suddenly useful. The Astros, it would seem, took it further than them, though.
 
Last edited:

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
As to the implied description of this as sort of unprecedented, we now know that the 1951 Giants had their own version of this.

I think the difference there is that nothing technically precluded the visiting team from replicating that set up. In this case, you have a system exclusively available to the home team.
 

NYCSox

chris hansen of goats
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 19, 2004
10,446
Some fancy town in CT
I'm fairly certain the Cardinals have been doing something similar since the LaRussa years. It would certainly track with what we know: that ex-Cardinal Carlos Beltran was allegedly one of the players who suggested the scheme, and ex-Cardinals front office employee Jeff Luhnow at best tacitly condoned it. And the Cardinals are almost always better than they "should" be, and a bunch of washed-up players have gone to St. Louis only to find themselves suddenly rejuvenated, and non-prospects get called up only to find themselves suddenly useful. The Astros, it would seem, took it further than them, though.
Well if that's the criteria there is another team closer to home who should be under suspicion. :)
 

bruce_almighty

New Member
Mar 29, 2019
7
I voted the postseason ban, fines and draft pick restrictions. I don't necessarily think all three should happen but a ban and one of the other would suffice. It would/should discourage any further shenanigans from them or anyone else in the future. It would also set a precedent to use that punishment in the future.
 

Mugsy's Jock

Eli apologist
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 28, 2000
15,069
UWS, NYC
Fine, draft picks, signing pool money. Maybe add a lower salary cap. Suspensions for non-uniformed staff who designed it. Frame the dorito dinks.

I don’t think what they did is all that big a deal. Certainly no death penalty, and no huge suspensions for uniformed personnel involved.
 

Mighty Joe Young

The North remembers
SoSH Member
Sep 14, 2002
8,401
Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
What I would do :

Punish the team the loss of an entire draft .. or 1st rounders for three years plus the associated signing pool .

Punish the owner with maximum fines.

Punish the GM Luhnow with a one year suspension (although a lifetime ban should be considered)

Punish the manager .. 80 to 162 game suspension

Punish any other on field staff by firing them

Punish any players directly involved with cooking up the scheme with suspensions.

I don’t think they can touch any other players or coaches who have moved to other organizations ..

What Manfred will do :

Maximum fine for the owner
Loss of a 1st rounder
International signings ban for a year
Luhnow gets a one year suspension
The manager Hinch gets a 80 game suspension

Everyone else gets a stern talking to and a warning that , if any such behaviour is repeated severe suspensions will be forthcoming.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,096
Here are my assumptions as well as the desired punishment.

My assumption is that the Astros had been less forthcoming to Manfred about what happened in 2017, and then doubled down by repeating their electronic sign stealing in 2018 and 2019. Also, doing it in 2019 has a huge "ignored the commissioner's memo" feel to it. As always, the cover up will be punished worse than the underlying crime, as it should.

So, I voted for:

- Lengthy suspensions for Hinch and Luhnow, as it appears both were complicit.
- Loss of draft picks, bonus pool money, and international signing money for one to 2 years.
- Organizational fine.

Attempting to ban the Astros for the post-season punishes the wrong people: players who were not complicit and fans. I did not vote for suspending any players, unless they were found to be outright lying to the investigators. I'm not a fan of attempting to force a sale.
 

OCD SS

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Just for accuracy, this isn't really true. The Red Sox were punished for using Apple Watches in the dugout but I don't think it was ever clear what exactly they were doing with them if anything, and NY was punished for unauthorized use of the dugout phone which was basically just a technicality as explained below.
If you want to say that we don't know what the Sox and Yankees were doing, that's fair, but I think it's safe to say that both the Red Sox and Yankees were punished for using methods to gain a competitive advantage via better communication (at the very least) outside of the traditionally accepted "inside the lines" framework, and it was this that Manfred indicated he would come down on.

Can you expand on this? Did I miss them firing Hinch?
Since punishing people involved in the scheme not on the Astros (say Cora and Beltran) would be more of a punishment to to their new teams and not really any punishment to the Astros, I think it's extremely hard to come down on similar players/ personnel who are still on the Astros, including Hinch. I guess if it were revealed that he came up with the idea and bore a lot more responsibility, then he might be open to a suspension, but if this was implemented either up the food chain (say if it was instigated by Lunhow or the FO), or by someone below him and he just sort of let it go (say Cora cooked up the scheme), then it would be hard to justify suspending him 2 seasons later when others with similar culpability are sheilded by virtue of being with new organizations.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,465
Somewhere
I think a fine could have the desired effect if the maximum penalty were in the 8-figure range rather than the 7-figure listed in the poll.

A >$10M fine would be plenty of disincentive for bad behavior, in my thinking.
 

brs3

sings praises of pinstripes
SoSH Member
May 20, 2008
5,200
Jackson Heights, NYC
Lifetime ban for Hinch for any on-field MLB/MiLB position should be an option, if he participated in the scheme to cheat...and maybe even if he didn't. He'd really have to be totally aloof to miss it. Either way, the leader of the on-field team should be made an example.
 

McBride11

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
22,109
Durham, NC
Honestly if they want to genuinely stop this kind of organizational misbehavior (not just sign stealing) in the future, they should force Crane to sell the team a la Donald Sterling in the NBA. I'm not sure if Manfred has that much power, though.
Can you expand upon this? I may missed it in the thread. Youre one of the best baseball posters hands down and I look forward to your posts, but this seems extremely severe. So I am really interested to see how you got there. As you likely know more BBall than me.

Forced to sell a 1.5B franchise seems a lot.We dont know Cranes full involvement. And he doesnt seem as heinous as Sterling as a person and other issues.

I voted Luhnow and Hinch for a year plus some draft, international money, and money penalties for full transparency.
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,620
Lifetime ban for Hinch for any on-field MLB/MiLB position should be an option, if he participated in the scheme to cheat...and maybe even if he didn't. He'd really have to be totally aloof to miss it. Either way, the leader of the on-field team should be made an example.
ehh id be more hesitant for a guy like hinch when you are really curtailing what he can do with the rest of his life. Luhnow is just a corporate consultant who fell into the baseball game for awhile. Kick the guy out of the league and make him work in some other corporate field. I am sure he would be able to fall into some lucrative position somewhere in Houston. Fine the team a ton, take some draft picks, and ban the guy in charge of the org for life.

edit: didnt realize hinch had a psychology degree from Stanford. Probably not terribly useful now though
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
Can you expand upon this? I may missed it in the thread. Youre one of the best baseball posters hands down and I look forward to your posts, but this seems extremely severe. So I am really interested to see how you got there. As you likely know more BBall than me.

Forced to sell a 1.5B franchise seems a lot.We dont know Cranes full involvement. And he doesnt seem as heinous as Sterling as a person and other issues.
Thanks for the nice words! To me it's a whole bunch of things combined the last few years:

1) The sign-stealing, which seems to have happened a lot and in multiple ways and after private (presumably) and public warnings from MLB. MLB went so far as to change rules before 2019, putting a 8 second delay on all broadcast feeds in the ballpark, but HOU seems to have just switched to other ways.

2) The absolutely embarrassing and disgusting Taubman situation, which overshadowed the first half of an exciting World Series. Both what he did and the way that the team reacted (didn't react) afterward made it quite publicly clear how toxic that front office is currently.

3) The magically increased spin rates for Houston pitchers in recent years, almost as if they were using a particularly effective illegal adhesive. Trevor Bauer among other people talked about this a lot in 2018, and even did a one inning demonstration in a May 2018 game:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/trevor-bauer-might-have-conducted-an-experiment/
So the hitters are cheating, the pitchers are cheating, the front office are toxic shitheads, I think the blame is on ownership. If they cheated in 2017, they won both the ALCS and WS in 7 games and there's a very good chance the cheating gained them a title, the first in franchise history. I don't really believe in asterisks or vacating the title like the NCAA do, but if the gain from the organizationally wide cheating was a WS title, the penalty should be pretty severe and on ownership. If MLB wants it to actually be a deterrent going forward (not sure they do or how much power they actually have), I think they should make Crane sell and the new owner clean house. You chose to flagrantly and endlessly cheat, you got your title, but that's it for you in MLB.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
Thanks for the nice words! To me it's a whole bunch of things combined the last few years:

1) The sign-stealing, which seems to have happened a lot and in multiple ways and after private (presumably) and public warnings from MLB. MLB went so far as to change rules before 2019, putting a 8 second delay on all broadcast feeds in the ballpark, but HOU seems to have just switched to other ways.

2) The absolutely embarrassing and disgusting Taubman situation, which overshadowed the first half of an exciting World Series. Both what he did and the way that the team reacted (didn't react) afterward made it quite publicly clear how toxic that front office is currently.

3) The magically increased spin rates for Houston pitchers in recent years, almost as if they were using a particularly effective illegal adhesive. Trevor Bauer among other people talked about this a lot in 2018, and even did a one inning demonstration in a May 2018 game:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/trevor-bauer-might-have-conducted-an-experiment/
So the hitters are cheating, the pitchers are cheating, the front office are toxic shitheads, I think the blame is on ownership. If they cheated in 2017, they won both the ALCS and WS in 7 games and there's a very good chance the cheating gained them a title, the first in franchise history. I don't really believe in asterisks or vacating the title like the NCAA do, but if the gain from the organizationally wide cheating was a WS title, the penalty should be pretty severe and on ownership. If MLB wants it to actually be a deterrent going forward (not sure they do or how much power they actually have), I think they should make Crane sell and the new owner clean house. You chose to flagrantly and endlessly cheat, you got your title, but that's it for you in MLB.

The former owner of the Yankees pleaded guilty to a serious felony and was suspended for two years. (A punishment he largely ignored, as recounted by Sparky Lyle in The Bronx Zoo.) Then, almost 20 years later, that same owner became entangled in a scheme to use a degenerate gambler/convicted felon to dig up dirt on his star player in an attempt to run him out of town, and when that didn't work, found himself on the receiving end of an extortion attempt by that same degenerate gambler. His punishment this time appeared to be more severe (lifetime ban on day-to-day management of the team) but was lifted after two seasons, the length of his first suspension.

The point being that if George Steinbrenner wasn't forced to sell the Yankees for recidivist behavior that was far more damaging to the integrity of the game, there's no way Crane will be forced to sell for behavior that may not even involve him.

I can see suspensions for any one (possibly all) of Crane, Luhnow and Hinch. If they are found to be deeply involved, I can see suspensions for former players/coaches who are now working for other teams, regardless of how "unfair" it may seem. I can see fines and loss of draft picks in there as well, but that's about as far as I think it will go.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
With all due respect, I think the behavior I detailed above is about a billion times more ‘damaging to the integrity of the game’ than what Steinbrenner did, it likely flipped one World Series and tarnished the last three postseasons. Also this seems to implicate the entire organization, top to bottom, dozens of people, not just the owner on his own.
 

amRadio

New Member
Feb 7, 2019
798
With all due respect, I think the behavior I detailed above is about a billion times more ‘damaging to the integrity of the game’ than what Steinbrenner did, it likely flipped one World Series and tarnished the last three postseasons. Also this seems to implicate the entire organization, top to bottom, dozens of people, not just the owner on his own.
I also feel obligated to preface this and say that I really respect your baseball opinions and members like you over the years inspired me to engage you guys and finally make an account after "lurking" since 2004. You seem to be looking at this through a pretty bias lens right now though. I've always viewed sign stealing as a great way to win a crucial inning, but I can't imagine a team becoming a 100 win monster, massively dropping their K% for an entire season and winning a WS based on stolen signs. Teams know when their signs are stolen and change them quickly. Every major league team has multiple sets of signs on deck and that switch just entails a quick chat with the catcher and it's then back to business. MLB teams have been stealing signs and guarding their own forever and I just don't think it made as much of an impact on them winning the title as you seem to. I know none of this is news to you or anything, I'm not trying to educate anybody on sign stealing. They were a 100 win monster in 2017 and STEAMER projected them pre-season to have the biggest K% turnaround since the 1950's just based on their personnel moves that offseason. I guess I just think this is overblown. That said, I'd boot Lunhow for a year easily and also share the same suspicion of him due to his time with the Cardinals (who I believe to be the cheatinest cheaters that ever cheated on baseball diamond). If draft picks, signing bonus money aren't docked significantly, I'd be shocked and I also think this is a great opportunity for baseball to ban players from the clubhouse/tunnels during games.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
You seem to be looking at this through a pretty bias lens right now though.
To be clear, I don't really care what the punishment ends up being or that it likely affected the Yankees season in 2017 and maybe this year. But if MLB genuinely wants to try to stop this from reoccurring in the future, I don't think any of the penalties suggested in the poll fit the (I guess alleged) crimes. That's all I'm saying, and I was asked to elaborate, so I did. I am way way way more interested in offseason personnel moves, just answering the poll question here.
 

amRadio

New Member
Feb 7, 2019
798
Yeah, I mean, I have an army of strawman ready to march whenever this topic comes up because I have a lot of thoughts, feelings, and concerns on sign stealing in baseball. I wasn't trying to let that out here, more just talking to hear myself, and engage you a bit on it because you've got a fair number of posts in these threads. I'm probably in the opposite camp, I don't expect the Sox to have much of an offseason and after the Cole sweepstakes, the most interesting story for me might be TrashCanGate or whatever we're eventually going to name it. I have a lot of internet points invested in the Astros penalty being a lot lighter than some think.
 

stepson_and_toe

New Member
Aug 11, 2019
386
From NPR's Morning Edition in 2006, an interview with Joshua Prager expanding on a front-page story he wrote for the WSJ five years previously: The Story Behind the Shot Heard Round the World, about the play-off game between the Giants and Dodgers to see who won the NL title on October 3, 1951.

"There was a clubhouse in centerfield at The Polo Grounds that looked out directly onto the field. And the Giants set a coach - Herman Franks, who had been the third base coach -they positioned him in the fourth window there, and they gave him a telescope. And he peered through that window with this telescope at the finger signals of the opposing catchers. And once he had sussed(ph) out the sign, he pressed the button. And that button buzzed a buzzer in the right field bullpen, where the Giant pitchers were warming up.

One buzz was a fastball. Two buzzes was an off-speed pitch. And it was there that a backup catcher - generally, Sal Yvars - relayed the sign to the batter. So pretty much, it went spying the sign, relaying the signal and then relaying it by a hand signal to the batter."
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,754
Pittsburgh, PA
Here are my assumptions as well as the desired punishment.

My assumption is that the Astros had been less forthcoming to Manfred about what happened in 2017, and then doubled down by repeating their electronic sign stealing in 2018 and 2019. Also, doing it in 2019 has a huge "ignored the commissioner's memo" feel to it. As always, the cover up will be punished worse than the underlying crime, as it should.

So, I voted for:

- Lengthy suspensions for Hinch and Luhnow, as it appears both were complicit.
- Loss of draft picks, bonus pool money, and international signing money for one to 2 years.
- Organizational fine.

Attempting to ban the Astros for the post-season punishes the wrong people: players who were not complicit and fans. I did not vote for suspending any players, unless they were found to be outright lying to the investigators. I'm not a fan of attempting to force a sale.
So, your post is totally reasonable, but I think people voting and posting here are underrating the potential of a postseason ban, so I'm going to pick out this aspect of it.

- It doesn't really punish the players. The stars are already making dozens times more than whatever their postseason share would be. If need be, you could qualify this action (and mollify the union's certain objections) by saying that if the Astros finish in a position that would have qualified them for the postseason but-for this ban, the players on the roster as of 9/30 will each get a playoff share equal to (say) the average Division Series share, paid for by MLB (or making it a functional additional fine to the Astros, by making them pay it).

- Sure, the players want to win a championship. But those who were around the team the past few years also knew they were cheating. Taking away an opportunity they want, which they had previously got partly through dishonesty, hardly seems like an excessive punishment given their role in it. No, they weren't ringleaders, but they were beneficiaries.

- Yeah the fans would be bummed. But:
(1) most of us watch the regular season, because we enjoy watching baseball. The formerly-an-exhibition stuff at the end of that season doesn't, or shouldn't, change our ability to enjoy that, which is why for the first half of the major leagues' existence, winning the pennant was arguably a greater achievement than winning that "exhibition" series, because it required a season-long sustained run of success in proving your team's superiority, and that achievement stood and was remembered fondly, regardless of whether you happened to also be able to then win 4 out of the next 7.
(2) the fans already got the benefit of, arguably, a fraudulent title, fraudulent run to Game 7 of the World Series, and a third postseason on top of that. If the punishment should fit the crime, then you can argue that because they (may or may not) have stolen a postseason berth and success in that postseason from another deserving team, the most-fitting punishment would be having a deserved postseason berth taken away from them and given to the next-up team. There's a symmetry there you can't ignore, even if some Astros fans would be understandably upset.

- Furthermore, you might say that the fans SHOULD be bummed. Their team cheated in a manner that undermined the fundamental competitive integrity of the game. Depending on your point of view, it's arguably just a step below throwing the game for the sake of gambling winnings, and I'd say far ahead of PEDs in terms of damage. Sign-stealing by players on the field is as old as baseball, but what is described here is so different in degree that it's effectively a difference in kind. If the Astros lose some fans as a result of this, Manfred might well feel that's good for the game, as a deterrent. Deterrence and restorative justice are both, separately, worthy goals for him to have here, and he need not pursue just one.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
With all due respect, I think the behavior I detailed above is about a billion times more ‘damaging to the integrity of the game’ than what Steinbrenner did, it likely flipped one World Series and tarnished the last three postseasons. Also this seems to implicate the entire organization, top to bottom, dozens of people, not just the owner on his own.
As it relates to the two owners, you have it exactly backwards.

Steinbrenner pleaded guilty to a felony. Just shy of two decades after, he admitted hiring a felon and degenerate gambler to dig up information on his superstar so he could conduct a smear campaign and justify not paying $$$ owed to his foundation. Then he ended up getting extorted by the gambler in question.

We have exactly zero evidence that Crane has any involvement in this “scandal” and you are already calling for him to be stripped of his franchise.

The idea that Crane’s involvement is worse than what Steinbrenner did is a complete fantasy.
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,620
IDK if the red sox were banned from the playoffs i dont know how hard i would follow them for a season. the astros are now a premier franchise in a huge media market, i doubt MLB is really gonna look for a way to crush fan enthusiasm in the area when they have just built it up and may be facing a labor strike in the next few seasons. also, if you ban the astros from the postseason, they are just gonna trade everyone whose contract is up after next season and maybe some of the expensive pitchers on 2 year deals. their fan attendance would probably drop a lot and that would lose them a ton of money for sure. Im 100% on board with losing top draft picks for a few years and banning Luhnow for life. It is his org, he was in charge of it, he should be thrown to the wolves.
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,620
As it relates to the two owners, you have it exactly backwards.

Steinbrenner pleaded guilty to a felony. Just shy of two decades after, he admitted hiring a felon and degenerate gambler to dig up information on his superstar so he could conduct a smear campaign and justify not paying $$$ owed to his foundation. Then he ended up getting extorted by the gambler in question.

We have exactly zero evidence that Crane has any involvement in this “scandal” and you are already calling for him to be stripped of his franchise.

The idea that Crane’s involvement is worse than what Steinbrenner did is a complete fantasy.
I had no idea what you were talking about so i looked it up and wow. Coincidentally, Steinbrenner was banned "for life" on the day I was born, which i guess is a fun fact for me haha. But offering the guy 150k and a job so you can get around paying Dave Winfield's charity 300k is almost cartoonishly evil. I really only know Steinbrenner from Seinfeld and his later days when he was throwing money at everything that moved.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
I had no idea what you were talking about so i looked it up and wow. Coincidentally, Steinbrenner was banned "for life" on the day I was born, which i guess is a fun fact for me haha. But offering the guy 150k and a job so you can get around paying Dave Winfield's charity 300k is almost cartoonishly evil. I really only know Steinbrenner from Seinfeld and his later days when he was throwing money at everything that moved.
People also forget that Steinbrenner should have gone to jail for many years back in the 70s.

The feds had him dead to rights on federal election fraud; money laundering; subornation of perjury and obstruction. (Short version: Steinbrenner evaded campaign finance laws by contributing the max - which I believe was $5,000 - and then giving scores of his employees $5,000 each for them to contribute to Nixon’s re-election campaign. When Watergate prosecutors eventually went after him, he destroyed evidence that was under subpoena and instructed his employees to lie to prosecutors or be fired.

Perhaps the only good decision Steinbrenner made was to hire Edward Bennett Williams as his lawyer. Williams’ performed a legal miracle and got the prosecutors to agree to let Steinbrenner plead to one count of obstruction in exchange for saving them the time and expense of a long trial. Then, he turned around and convinced the Judge that the DOJ leniency was a sign that the underlying case was weak. And that’s how Steinbrenner avoided jail.

Instead of being grateful, Steinbrenner refused to pay his bills until Williams threatened legal action of his own. Steinbrenner paid, but years later he tried to block Williams from becoming owner of the Orioles.

George Steinbrenner was a real prince.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
To be clear, I'm not defending Steinbrenner at all, he was a proto-Trump piece of shit.

That being said, I am sticking to my statement that what the Astros (seem to) have done here was way way more hurtful to the actual sport, and we should probably stick to Astros discussion in this thread.
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,330
Southwestern CT
To be clear, I'm not defending Steinbrenner at all, he was a proto-Trump piece of shit. That being said, I am sticking to my statement that what the Astros (seem to) have done here was way way way more hurtful to the actual sport.
To be clear, our disagreement stems from your statement that MLB should force Crane to sell the team as punishment, despite the fact that there is no evidence of his involvement.

The only reason I brought up Steinbrenner is for the obvious contrast. Because whether you believe Steinbrenner's actions were as serious as the allegations against the Astros or not, there's no disputing the fact that Steinbrenner was in complete control of the operation. And if he wasn't forced to sell the Yankees after placing himself in such a compromising position that a professional gambler tried to extort him, there is exactly zero chance that Crane will be forced to sell the Astros over this.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
To be clear, our disagreement stems from your statement that MLB should force Crane to sell the team as punishment, despite the fact that there is no evidence of his involvement.
He hired everyone, there's no evidence of Luhnow's or Hinch's direct involvement either. I think part of the disagreement is that I am weighing the Taubman incident and its aftermath more than most other people in this thread seem to be, separate but clearly connected to the climate created since Crane took over and a huge black stain for baseball right in the middle of the World Series.

there is exactly zero chance that Crane will be forced to sell the Astros over this.
Yeah, I agree with this, my original statement was "Honestly if they want to genuinely stop this kind of organizational misbehavior (not just sign stealing) in the future, they should force Crane to sell the team a la Donald Sterling in the NBA." Manfred has already tried to slide this under the rug once, I think he just wants it to go away ASAP.
 

McBride11

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
22,109
Durham, NC
Thanks for the nice words! To me it's a whole bunch of things combined the last few years:

1) The sign-stealing, which seems to have happened a lot and in multiple ways and after private (presumably) and public warnings from MLB. MLB went so far as to change rules before 2019, putting a 8 second delay on all broadcast feeds in the ballpark, but HOU seems to have just switched to other ways.

2) The absolutely embarrassing and disgusting Taubman situation, which overshadowed the first half of an exciting World Series. Both what he did and the way that the team reacted (didn't react) afterward made it quite publicly clear how toxic that front office is currently.

3) The magically increased spin rates for Houston pitchers in recent years, almost as if they were using a particularly effective illegal adhesive. Trevor Bauer among other people talked about this a lot in 2018, and even did a one inning demonstration in a May 2018 game:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/trevor-bauer-might-have-conducted-an-experiment/
So the hitters are cheating, the pitchers are cheating, the front office are toxic shitheads, I think the blame is on ownership. If they cheated in 2017, they won both the ALCS and WS in 7 games and there's a very good chance the cheating gained them a title, the first in franchise history. I don't really believe in asterisks or vacating the title like the NCAA do, but if the gain from the organizationally wide cheating was a WS title, the penalty should be pretty severe and on ownership. If MLB wants it to actually be a deterrent going forward (not sure they do or how much power they actually have), I think they should make Crane sell and the new owner clean house. You chose to flagrantly and endlessly cheat, you got your title, but that's it for you in MLB.
Thanks!

Seems a lot of wiggle room for Crane tho.

Maybe he only met Taubman in passing because president Reid Ryan made the hire and Taubman hid his crappiness for 15 min.

It is interesting and maybe only a PR move that Ryan, runner of said crappy front office, was recently removed for Jared Crane, Son of Jim. Maybe they finally got tired of the shenanigans and wanted to save face or maybe they just really learned about.
in this day and age Im sure there are some emails.

Ps - reid ryan is Nolan Ryans kid. The Astros FO is just full of nepotism
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
70,713
No one bumped this thread, but I wanted to respond to myself...

Honestly if they want to genuinely stop this kind of organizational misbehavior (not just sign stealing) in the future, they should force Crane to sell the team a la Donald Sterling in the NBA. I'm not sure if Manfred has that much power, though.
What Manfred did was a good substitute for what I suggested, basically forcing Crane to clean house. The punishment seems both drastic and fair given the infractions IMO.