PTBNLs named in Benintendi/Cordero trade

catsooey

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Consdering Porcello followed up that cy young year with 4 mediocre years and at age 32 still isn't signed, he probably isn't a great comp if you're trying to argue for AB turning back into what as of now is looking like it might have been a one year wonder.

Also not sure how you can determine how likelly the PTBNLs are to become anything or what their potential value is when we still don't even know who they are yet.
Yeah but Porcello is 32 now and that’s a totally different story from a 26 year old position player. And yes that was obviously his best year - he’s not immune to decline or getting older by playing to his strengths, but he admittedly didn’t win the award when he was trying to be something other than himself. There’s lots of trends with players - now hitters are chasing the ’launch angle‘ thing. I think if you overthink something that you’re already naturally good at you risk causing unnecessary problems.

They’re not from their ‘top prospect’ selection. They’re still evaluating due to covid, but they’re from a list of prospects deeper in the pile. There could be a superstar in there, I‘m not saying they’ll be bad - all of this is about trying to predict the future which none of us can do. All you can do is formulate odds based on what you see. I put a higher value on Beni and I would have not made the deal, but I do like a lot of what Chaim is doing.
 
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natpastime162

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Yeah but Porcello is 32 now and that’s a totally different story from a 26 year old position player. And yes that was obviously his best year - he’s not immune to decline or getting older by playing to his strengths, but he admittedly didn’t win the award when he was trying to be something other than himself. There’s lots of trends with players - now hitters are chasing the ’launch angle‘ thing. I think if you overthink something that you’re already naturally good at you risk causing unnecessary problems.

They’re not from their ‘top prospect’ selection. They’re still evaluating due to covid, but they’re from a list of prospects deeper in the pile. There could be a superstar in there, I‘m not saying they’ll be bad - all of this is about trying to predict the future which none of us can do. All you can do is formulate odds based on what you see. I put a higher value on Beni and I would have not made the deal, but I do like a lot of what Chaim is doing.
Where is the article or source indicating these prospect are “deeper in the pile”?
 

scottyno

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Yeah but Porcello is 32 now and that’s a totally different story from a 26 year old position player. And yes that was obviously his best year - he’s not immune to decline or getting older by playing to his strengths, but he admittedly didn’t win the award when he was trying to be something other than himself. There’s lots of trends with players - now hitters are chasing the ’launch angle‘ thing. I think if you overthink something that you’re already naturally good at you risk causing unnecessary problems.

They’re not from their ‘top prospect’ selection. They’re still evaluating due to covid, but they’re from a list of prospects deeper in the pile. There could be a superstar in there, I‘m not saying they’ll be bad - all of this is about trying to predict the future which none of us can do. All you can do is formulate odds based on what you see. I put a higher value on Beni and I would have not made the deal, but I do like a lot of what Chaim is doing.
Yeah but porcello at every other age other than 27 when he actually won the cy wasn't anything special, his post cy years weren't much worse than his pre cy years. Which isn't dissimilar to what benintendi was in every year besides 2018.
 

jon abbey

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Logic says that the only reason for the Mets to be part of this deal was if they offered to send someone to BOS who Chaim valued more than Khalil Lee, a borderline top 100 guy for some people but also a guy who needs a 40 man spot now (lowering his value compared to someone who doesn't yet), but that is definitely someone potentially exciting who has not been agreed on/announced yet. Plus two more guys from the Royals still coming, let Chaim work. In a normal time where we had 2020 minor league results, the deal would probably have been fully agreed on at the time, I would guess it will be finalized within a month now that minor league games have finally started again.
 

mauf

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I don't know why we are sobbing over the loss of a player who has shown a sudden and dramatic fall in ability and speed. While part of that could be due to overly packing on muscle, it doesn't explain his complete fail at all aspects of the game over the last two years, and just when he is starting to get expensive.
I’m not sure anyone is sobbing. This year’s team appears to be good enough to contend. If you ignore the payroll implications, they’d be better with Benintendi. I’d still do the deal, because Beni isn’t playing great and the payroll implications do matter. With Franchy looking like a bust, however, people are understandably impatient to find out who the PTBNLs are — particularly the one from the Mets, whom Chaim apparently preferred to Khalil Lee. (The two PTBNLs from the Royals are unlikely to be significant.)
 

lexrageorge

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He was good and should have stayed. Legit worked for the Sox a bit. Too passionate about individual players and inventing esoteric stats. He left the board over the Iglesias trade, right?
He legit worked for the Sox but that was in the early days of statistical analysis being applied to baseball players. I think a lot of people rotated through organizations at the time; doesn't mean they were necessarily good.
 

Cesar Crespo

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He was good and should have stayed. Legit worked for the Sox a bit. Too passionate about individual players and inventing esoteric stats. He left the board over the Iglesias trade, right?

His real problem was taking a week of stats and acting like it had any type of predictive value whatsoever. The stats he posted were great, the opinion he came up with from said stats were awful.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Is Franchy really looking like "a bust"? We're not even a fifth of the way into the season with him playing limited time....
I don't have the time this morning to look it up, but wasn't Ortiz looking pretty terrible at this same point in '03? Granted, he started forcing his play by taking better advantage of the opportunity than Franchy has at this point, but it's really, really, really too soon to be calling him anything other than something like, "young, inexperienced, a project, raw, etc...".
I'd like to see him get more PA's but the Sox are in a somewhat unexpected position at which they found themselves trying to win rather than develop and Franchy isn't compatible with this. If it's possible, I'd send him to Wistah and get him facing pitchers everyday.*
*The problem with this, of course, is that he likely needs PA's against ML quality starters... not AAAA borderline guys and rehabbing ML starters working out the issues.
But " a bust" he is not.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Ortiz had already proven he could hit Major League pitching from 2000-2002 over a course of about 1300 PA.

I don't know whether Franchy is a bust or not but he's not similar to Ortiz at all. He had 315 PA coming into this year, Ortiz had 1693 going into his first year with Boston.

Ortiz should never have been DFA'd and Minnesota was stupid.
 

Max Power

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Ortiz had already proven he could hit Major League pitching from 2000-2002 over a course of about 1300 PA.

I don't know whether Franchy is a bust or not but he's not similar to Ortiz at all. He had 315 PA coming into this year, Ortiz had 1693 going into his first year with Boston.

Ortiz should never have been DFA'd and Minnesota was stupid.
I was at Fenway in 2000 when Ortiz hit a grand slam for the Twins off of Martinez. It was Ramon and not Pedro, but still, he could hit.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Ortiz had already proven he could hit Major League pitching from 2000-2002 over a course of about 1300 PA.

I don't know whether Franchy is a bust or not but he's not similar to Ortiz at all. He had 315 PA coming into this year, Ortiz had 1693 going into his first year with Boston.

Ortiz should never have been DFA'd and Minnesota was stupid.
Yeah, the comparison is far from equivalent, but I think Sandy's point about it being way too early to call Cordero a bust is right on.

The guy had an abbreviated spring training and has not really been getting consistent playing time. Maybe he would benefit from some time in Worcester. If it weren't for the lack of offensive production from 2-3 other spots in the lineup, I'd think now is the time to give him an extended run starting every game and see how he responds. Especially with the outfield rotation a bit shorter because of Kike being on the IL.
 

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billy ashley

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dude has 70 raw power, and like Ortiz, spent much of his early to mid 20s fighting injuries.

I think people undestimate how impressive Ortiz was as far back as his time with the Mariners, but there are reasons for people to dream on Cordero and compare him to other late bloomers that had double plus skills.
 

EllisTheRimMan

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This is an offensively lazy post.

The comparison is inapt for a lot of reasons. However, the fact that you are passive-aggressively insinuating that it’s racially-motivated tells me more about you than those who made the comparison.
Chill. Your response is lazy and full of assumptions. They look alike and when I saw Franchy the first time in a Sox Uni, I thought he looked like Ortiz. Excuse me for thinking people look alike. I was about say "separated at birth?"

That said, if he were an oft injured struggling white player with no Ahab beard and power potential, I'm not sure the "next" David Ortiz would come up. Cause he wouldn't look like David Ortiz. You're the one being aggressively stupid.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Chill. Your response is lazy and full of assumptions. They look alike and when I saw Franchy the first time in a Sox Uni, I thought he looked like Ortiz. Excuse me for thinking people look alike. I was about say "separated at birth?"

That said, if he were an oft injured struggling white player with no Ahab beard and power potential, I'm not sure the "next" David Ortiz would come up. Cause he wouldn't look like David Ortiz. You're the one being aggressively stupid.
I doubt many people in 2021 read skin deep as superficial. When I initially read your comment, I was thinking the same thing AR did but then I saw the pictures and realized what you meant.
 

Average Reds

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Sorry guys. Delete the post. It wasn't meant to offend. But, the data is in.
Let me see if I can tie this off so we can move on.

As CC indicated above, I misread the “skin-deep” comment as being racial and took everything in the wrong direction. I apologize for that and hope that we can get back to the purpose of the thread.

I did delete my original response because once I understood the situation I realized that it was way too aggressive. But I think the situation is clear and there’s no need for anything to be removed.
 

Chainsaw318

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I don’t want to pile on, but I was surprised, after seeing this thread bumped for Beni’s hot streak, to look at his #’s, thinking they would be impressive.

He has been on a hot streak during this last 11 game hitting streak (not including last night, where he went 0-4), batting over .400 with a 1.000 OPS.

Even with that stretch, though, he’s still been not all that productive - of qualified MLB OF’s he’s 37th in OPS, below Enrique Hernandez. and his WRC+ is 104, which is 4% over average after this heater.

Even with this hot streak, he doesn’t have much in the way of power - he’s Slugging .389, 37th of 65 qualified OFs per Fangraphs.

This “bounce” looks like a player in decline.
 

mauf

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Is Franchy really looking like "a bust"? We're not even a fifth of the way into the season with him playing limited time....
I don't have the time this morning to look it up, but wasn't Ortiz looking pretty terrible at this same point in '03?
David Ortiz hit 282/364/446 in 2000 at age 24, and 234/324/475 in an injury-shortened 2001 season. His rookie season in 1998 was the only year he had a material amount of playing time and struck out in more than 20% of his plate appearances. He’s in no way a relevant comp for a 26-year old Franchy Cordero whose career batting line is 225/293/393 and has struck out in 35.7% of his career plate appearances.

Franchy was interesting because he struck out just 4 times in 42 plate appearances last season while maintaining the plus-plus power that has kept him around the fringes of The Show despite flashing no other major-league quality skills. It was worth a flier to see if Franchy had figured something out. Based on his early-season performance, I’m comfortable saying he hadn’t.

I’m not suggesting that Franchy should be DFA’d tomorrow — especially if he has options, which according to Fangraphs, he does. But I don’t expect better than replacement-level production from him, and at age 26 he’s probably not going to break through and become more than a marginal player. Unless something changes drastically, he should be patrolling left field in Worcester a month from now. And if I’m wrong about him having options, he should be cut loose rather than demoting someone with options who is actually contributing.
 

azsoxpatsfan

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David Ortiz hit 282/364/446 in 2000 at age 24, and 234/324/475 in an injury-shortened 2001 season. His rookie season in 1998 was the only year he had a material amount of playing time and struck out in more than 20% of his plate appearances. He’s in no way a relevant comp for a 26-year old Franchy Cordero whose career batting line is 225/293/393 and has struck out in 35.7% of his career plate appearances.

Franchy was interesting because he struck out just 4 times in 42 plate appearances last season while maintaining the plus-plus power that has kept him around the fringes of The Show despite flashing no other major-league quality skills. It was worth a flier to see if Franchy had figured something out. Based on his early-season performance, I’m comfortable saying he hadn’t.

I’m not suggesting that Franchy should be DFA’d tomorrow — especially if he has options, which according to Fangraphs, he does. But I don’t expect better than replacement-level production from him, and at age 26 he’s probably not going to break through and become more than a marginal player. Unless something changes drastically, he should be patrolling left field in Worcester a month from now. And if I’m wrong about him having options, he should be cut loose rather than demoting someone with options who is actually contributing.
He has two options remaining. I think he could be a replacement level player. I don’t think he’ll ever be good. And even if he sucks and gets sent down, I still like the trade. Benintendi is the stereotypical player whose reputation outpaces his production and he’ll be paid way more than he’s worth. I love Beni for 2018 and especially the catch against Houston, but I’d be willing to bet he never has an OPS over .800 again. He’s just genuinely never been that good. He’s been an above average hitter one time in his career, he’s been a below average fielder every single season of his career. I’m glad we aren’t paying him
 

dynomite

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I don’t want to pile on, but I was surprised, after seeing this thread bumped for Beni’s hot streak, to look at his #’s, thinking they would be impressive.

He has been on a hot streak during this last 11 game hitting streak (not including last night, where he went 0-4), batting over .400 with a 1.000 OPS.

Even with that stretch, though, he’s still been not all that productive - of qualified MLB OF’s he’s 37th in OPS, below Enrique Hernandez. and his WRC+ is 104, which is 4% over average after this heater.

Even with this hot streak, he doesn’t have much in the way of power - he’s Slugging .389, 37th of 65 qualified OFs per Fangraphs.

This “bounce” looks like a player in decline.
So, I’m definitely still in the camp that believes the trade made sense and we’ll have to wait to see the full return. No problems here.

That said... I think the issue is that you’re still baking in Benny’s full season stats. He’s been two players: a bad one until 4/20, and a great one since then. Not an average player all along.

The issue remains figuring out what went wrong after 2018 and whether Benny can be “fixed,” or whatever word is more appropriate. In his tiny sample last season he struck out 32% of the time, nearly double the 16-17% rate from his 2017/18 peak. We all wondered if he could make adjustments to be closer to that player we all loved, the one who looked like a perennial .280/20/20 threat, 2-4 WAR All Star.

And over the last 11 games, Benintendi looks like a different guy. (Or more like the old guy.)

Through 4/17: 75% contact rate, 14.5% swinging strikes, 31% hard contact rate, 0 (!) barrels, 62 wRC+
Since 4/24: 87% contact rate, only 6% swinging strikes, 46% hard contact, 10% barrel rate, 172 wRC+ (!!)

So what happened?

PitcherList (a GREAT fantasy baseball site, BTW) wrote an article a few days ago and spotted that after the game on 4/20 by the next day Benny changed his batting stance, moving his front foot from being pointed way toward 1B, it’s now straight and his body is more “closed.” Will it stick? Is he “fixed”? As they say:

Back on April 13, his front foot was completely clear of his back foot. But over that next week, he made adjustments. As of April 20, before the stance moved to “fully closed,” he had a wRC+ of 50, a 27.0% strikeout rate, and a 32.5% hard-hit rate. Since April 21, his wRC+ is 204, his strikeout rate is 9.4%, and his hard-hit rate is 51.2%. We’re now comparing 63 “before” plate appearances to 53 “after” plate appearances, so none of this is definitive or guaranteed to stick. But it sure is interesting.
https://www.pitcherlist.com/is-beni-back/

For Benintendi’s sake, I hope he’s back. And yes, it would be a little frustrating if it only took moving his front foot a little, but again, Bloom made a calculation and got the value he could. Ive got no issue with it.
 
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catsooey

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I don’t want to pile on, but I was surprised, after seeing this thread bumped for Beni’s hot streak, to look at his #’s, thinking they would be impressive.

He has been on a hot streak during this last 11 game hitting streak (not including last night, where he went 0-4), batting over .400 with a 1.000 OPS.

Even with that stretch, though, he’s still been not all that productive - of qualified MLB OF’s he’s 37th in OPS, below Enrique Hernandez. and his WRC+ is 104, which is 4% over average after this heater.

Even with this hot streak, he doesn’t have much in the way of power - he’s Slugging .389, 37th of 65 qualified OFs per Fangraphs.

This “bounce” looks like a player in decline.


Ok, but if that means he’s in decline, by that logic, Franchy must be on his way to becoming Sammy Sooser.
 

azsoxpatsfan

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Ok, but if that means he’s in decline, by that logic, Franchy must be on his way to becoming Sammy Sooser.
If Benintendi isn’t good, then the Sox won the trade even if Franchy were the worst player ever. Take Franchy out of the trade, 4 PTBNL is better than paying AB 6.5 million to be barely above replacement level
 

DaubachmanTurnerOD

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For Benintendi’s sake, I hope he’s back. And yes, it would be a little frustrating if it only took moving his front foot a little, but again, Bloom made a calculation and got the value he could. Ive got no issue with it.
Kevin Millar used to be the most extreme example of this - he would get in a rut, and then significantly open up or close his stance and would go on a tear for a bit until the pitchers adjusted and he would get cold again. Then Millar would revert to the other (closed/open) stance and the cycle would repeat.

Hopefully, for Beni's sake, Beni's improvement will be more lasting, but it's still too soon to say.
 

JimD

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I always take these stories with a grain of salt. I find it hard to believe that nobody on the Red Sox thought of suggesting this change in stance, especially someone like JD who is a master student of hitting. I'm sure Beni has been trying all sorts of changes and this is the one that is producing noticeable results.
 

The Gray Eagle

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It's great how this thread is always bumped whenever Franchy or Beni do anything, so people can weigh in with their takes on the trade while still not even knowing who is in the trade.

Looking forward to these future posts:
May 15th: Benintendi just took ball 2 on a pitch that was just off the corner! He could have been doing that for us! That trade was a complete disaster!
May 25th: Franchy just fouled off a tough slider! This proves the trade was pure genius!
June 2: Benintendi just caught a pop fly! In your face haterz! Horrible trade!
June 5: Franchy just hit a double in Worcester, he's on his way back, he can't miss! Best trade ever!
June 9: Wow, we're getting 3 low-level minor leaguers I've never heard of, this trade is the best we've ever made!
June 9: all we're getting is 3 low-level minor leaguers I've never heard of, this trade is the worst we've ever made!
July 30, 2028: one of those minor league guys we got in the Benintendi trade just hit a double for the Nippon Ham Fighters, what a genius trade that was!
July 30, 2031: Benintendi retired 2 years ago, but never forget that in 2025 he put up 1.7 WAR for the D-backs, that was the worst trade ever!
 

nvalvo

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It's great how this thread is always bumped whenever Franchy or Beni do anything, so people can weigh in with their takes on the trade while still not even knowing who is in the trade.

Looking forward to these future posts:
May 15th: Benintendi just took ball 2 on a pitch that was just off the corner! He could have been doing that for us! That trade was a complete disaster!
May 25th: Franchy just fouled off a tough slider! This proves the trade was pure genius!
June 2: Benintendi just caught a pop fly! In your face haterz! Horrible trade!
June 5: Franchy just hit a double in Worcester, he's on his way back, he can't miss! Best trade ever!
June 9: Wow, we're getting 3 low-level minor leaguers I've never heard of, this trade is the best we've ever made!
June 9: all we're getting is 3 low-level minor leaguers I've never heard of, this trade is the worst we've ever made!
July 30, 2028: one of those minor league guys we got in the Benintendi trade just hit a double for the Nippon Ham Fighters, what a genius trade that was!
July 30, 2031: Benintendi retired 2 years ago, but never forget that in 2025 he put up 1.7 WAR for the D-backs, that was the worst trade ever!
Here's one you missed, TGE: Khalil Lee just got called up!
 

Cesar Crespo

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Over his last 63 PA, Franchy is slashing .070/.145/.088 with 4 hits, 5 bb, and 24 strikeouts. 3 of his hits came in one game.

During this 63 PA
He had one stretch where he was 0/10, .000/.167/.000, 2bb/6k in 12 PA.
he had one period where he was 0/24, .000/.000/.000. 0bb, 9k in 26 PA (He had a SH)
He's currently 0/17, .000/.111/.000. 2bb/6k in 19 PA.

For the year, he is now at .150/.209/.188 for an OPS+ of 12 in 87 PA.

Brutal.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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I've passed disappointment and contempt and am well into pity. At best, Franchy's just not ready, and it's not fair to him (much less us) to make him flail away against major league pitchers when he should be learning how to improve in the minors. And he badly snow coned an easy line drive last night that was another hint that his offensive woes may be affecting his defense too.

There has to be some veteran minimum bad outfielder that can fill up the roster spot and let Franchy get to work in Worcester. Waiting for Danny Santana is taking too long. At the worst, Franchy shouldn't be getting at bats over Chavis.
 

Kliq

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I've passed disappointment and contempt and am well into pity. At best, Franchy's just not ready, and it's not fair to him (much less us) to make him flail away against major league pitchers when he should be learning how to improve in the minors. And he badly snow coned an easy line drive last night that was another hint that his offensive woes may be affecting his defense too.

There has to be some veteran minimum bad outfielder that can fill up the roster spot and let Franchy get to work in Worcester. Waiting for Danny Santana is taking too long. At the worst, Franchy shouldn't be getting at bats over Chavis.
Literally any replacement-level player right now would be a significant improvement. Him continuing to be an everyday player is killing them right now.
 

Rovin Romine

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I've passed disappointment and contempt and am well into pity. At best, Franchy's just not ready, and it's not fair to him (much less us) to make him flail away against major league pitchers when he should be learning how to improve in the minors. And he badly snow coned an easy line drive last night that was another hint that his offensive woes may be affecting his defense too.

There has to be some veteran minimum bad outfielder that can fill up the roster spot and let Franchy get to work in Worcester. Waiting for Danny Santana is taking too long. At the worst, Franchy shouldn't be getting at bats over Chavis.
Yeap. The whacko thing is, he's got options. So it's not like they have to DFA him.

Or someone who is so-so defensively and can hit just about averagely. That's basically E.Hernandez - and one could "replace" Franchy with E.Hernandez, but between Franchy, Dalbec, and Renfroe (who has awakened in May), you're always getting a couple of crap bats anyway. Hernandez best adds value if he's spelling a strong lineup, resting the regulars and replacing them with average production. Once he's covering multiple holes, he may as well just be a dedicated average player replacing one of the scrubs.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Last 12 for Benny .267/.306/.267 on a .333 BAbip in 49 PA. 3bb/10k. Season line is now at .274/.335/.370 in 161 PA on a .327 BAbip. In 146 AB, he has 8 extra base hits. 5 doubles, 3 HRs.

That's a disturbing lack of power thru 146 AB.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Last 12 for Benny .267/.306/.267 on a .333 BAbip in 49 PA. 3bb/10k. Season line is now at .274/.335/.370 in 161 PA on a .327 BAbip. In 146 AB, he has 8 extra base hits. 5 doubles, 3 HRs.

That's a disturbing lack of power thru 146 AB.
True. On the other hand, Franchy is basically unplayable at the moment. Chavis is no great shakes but having him in the lineup instead of Franchy feels like a massive upgrade.

Of course, the ultimate question is who the PTBNLs are and how they pan out.
 

Cesar Crespo

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True. On the other hand, Franchy is basically unplayable at the moment. Chavis is no great shakes but having him in the lineup instead of Franchy feels like a massive upgrade.

Of course, the ultimate question is who the PTBNLs are and how they pan out.
Yeah, Franchy has been awful so far.

Regardless of how the trade works out, it looks like moving on from Benny was the right idea even if the return ends up being wrong.

It's still early though and 161 PA/146 AB isn't really a sample size.
 

TapeAndPosts

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Regardless of how the trade works out, it looks like moving on from Benny was the right idea even if the return ends up being wrong.
This is sort of where I am. I miss the guy but the team judged he wasn't going to cut it as our starting outfielder going forward, and turned him into 5 lottery tickets of various levels of value, only one of which we can judge right now. From all the dealings Bloom and Co have done so far, it seems like they are pretty decent judges of which players are worth taking a chance on. Even if none of the players we get for Benny pan out, but others we get in other deals do, it can still be the right move.

OPS for 10D, JBJ and Mookie in 2018: .830, .717, 1.078. In 2021: .705, .531, .803. We all miss that outfield, but even if we had that outfield, we wouldn't be getting that outfield.
 

nvalvo

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With the concession that he has been godawful — no two ways about a .462 OPS — here are a few Franchy facts that keep me from passing judgment on him on the basis of 95 plate appearances.
  • April K rate was 47% — yiiiiiikes — but May K rate is down to 20%, albeit with less playing time.
  • The contact peripherals have been improving (albeit from a terrible baseline) too, so it looks like that improvement has been largely earned. He's striking out less because he's making better swing decisions and more contact when he swings.
  • He has put the ball in play 51 times. 20 of those have been struck with an exit velocity above 95 mph. That's a very good hard hit rate.
  • That hard hit rate puts him level with Verdugo and only a tic behind Betts.
  • Very few barrels, though: his launch angle has been too low to really generate much power, even as he's been crushing the ball, and we see that in the relative lack of extra base power.
I would have no objection to optioning him to Worcester to give him more playing time, but I guess I'm just saying that I remain interested to see where this trajectory leads. If he can maintain a moderate strikeout rate and keep hitting the ball really hard when he hits it, it's not hard to imagine that being a recipe for success.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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So is there any news on Santana/Franchy?
Ian Browne says Santana is in the lineup tonight, leading off and playing 1B. No word yet on the counter move to get him on the roster. PeteAbe says they're waiting until after BP in case something happens (injury I guess).
 

reggiecleveland

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I had this in the general Sox thread, but just some comparisons for how badly Franchy has hit.

Franchy who has 90 PA and a ops+ of 29. Looking thorough back to 2010 of guy with around a 100pa and ops+ near Franchy's

Steve Pearce 2019 89pa 32ops+ (never played in MLB again)
Allen Craig 2015 88pa ops+ 21 (never played in MLB again)
Allen Craig 2014 107pa ops+ 21 (guy was consistent)
Daniel Nava 2015 78pa ops+ 22 (that 2015 was fun remember!) had a pretty good 4of year in 2017
Mike Cameran 2011 105pa ops+28
Jacoby Ellsbury 2010 84ps ops+30

So we see 3 the three most recent times was by guys who were done. Another, Cameron had a pretty good 100ab after being traded but was done, another who scraped around the minors before 200 decent at bats two years later, then was done, and another guy who was trying to play hurt and was shut down the rest of the year.

Lets note that this putrid level of hitting always, always costs guys their job. So They can't keep running him out there, right?
 

Rovin Romine

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He's 26. He has options. Keeping him on the ML club when you've got 2 utility men and MiL players who can hit and run better than Franchy has been doing.

When he lives up to his bat-speed/launch-angle/foot-placement/anti-counter-spin/secret sauce Mightly Metrickatude (e.g., actually productively hits) in AAA, then call him back up.

Right now, it's malpractice.
 

OCD SS

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I had this in the general Sox thread, but just some comparisons for how badly Franchy has hit.

Franchy who has 90 PA and a ops+ of 29. Looking thorough back to 2010 of guy with around a 100pa and ops+ near Franchy's

Steve Pearce 2019 89pa 32ops+ (never played in MLB again)
Allen Craig 2015 88pa ops+ 21 (never played in MLB again)
Allen Craig 2014 107pa ops+ 21 (guy was consistent)
Daniel Nava 2015 78pa ops+ 22 (that 2015 was fun remember!) had a pretty good 4of year in 2017
Mike Cameran 2011 105pa ops+28
Jacoby Ellsbury 2010 84ps ops+30

So we see 3 the three most recent times was by guys who were done. Another, Cameron had a pretty good 100ab after being traded but was done, another who scraped around the minors before 200 decent at bats two years later, then was done, and another guy who was trying to play hurt and was shut down the rest of the year.

Lets note that this putrid level of hitting always, always costs guys their job. So They can't keep running him out there, right?
I think your sample choice is directed by your presumed narrative. Is your point is that the Sox won't continue to run him out there because their history is to move on from players who are clearly through (and Ellsbury is just for reference)? Unless that mandated comes from the ownership group, wouldn't we be better off getting a list of players that TB cut and put out to pasture in the last 5 years or so? Franchy's narrative has to be different; a more usefull comparison would be players from across the league who came up from the minors and were absolutely terrible, and how much rope they were given before they were sent down to the minors. Maybe we're lucky and there are some older players in that mix.

I think Franchy is as much a lottery ticket in this deal as some of the other players; Bloom banked on his advanced contract numbers (and contract/ options/ extra year of control) as a better fit than Benintendi, but I expect that the real prize will be the Mets PTBNL (and salary relief from Ben10). Franchy is still hitting the ball really hard, he's just not showing the improved contact rates we hoped might be portended by last year's small sample. As we're looking at the advanced numbers sometimes we'll get a player who turns it around like Pivetta, and other times it will be more of a project...

I still think about Wily Mo Pena in comparison to Franchy; Wily Mo's development was derailed by his MLB contract that pulled him into the majors well before he was ready. Franchy can go down, but there were no minor leagues last year, and the fact that they started late this year meant that if he was going to get the reps to work on his swing it had to be at the MLB level. That is just not ideal for anyone hoping to improve (to say nothing of doing it in this offensive environment). I think he'd already be down in other years, and this year some (in)opportune injuries forced the Sox's hand a bit. It's also more glaring as the Sox are in contention, and based on the thread title and responses to where you first posted this data, it wasn't really expected by many of us. With the arrival of Santana, I expect that he'll wind up in Worchester relatively soon, but I don't think it will mean he's out of baseball.