QB or OT in the 2024 1st round? Where would the team be?
- Thread starter E5 Yaz
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Not really no. THe basis of drafting a QB is it's by far the hardest thing to get over any time period and even if you don't play him at all year 1 that is true.
What about this team makes you think it would be good with a mediocre LT (which is what the best rookies are right now, even if they might end up really good).
Fair, that's why I phrased it the way I did. They're so far from competing that I wonder whether building the O-line first made more sense
The general thesis though is that the best way to compete long term is to be one of the teams lucky enough to be able to take a really highly rated QB prospect without trading your future for it. I think they hoped the rest of the roster would be less bad, but drafting Maye and sitting him most/all of year 1 was likely always their plan, with year 2 and the potential to add OL help as the target year for real improvement.
I think it is too hard/risky to wait on finding a QB. There isn’t a legit top franchise guy in every draft and even when there is they might not be available past 1, or if you are lucky, 2 or 3. And finishing in the top 3 picks consistently, or the year you ‘want’ to, is not easy.
It’s not easy to find a top tackle either, but a top tackle won’t win you much without the QB, whereas a top QB buys you unparalleled margin for error elsewhere on the roster.
no, but it’s fair to re-evaluate if taking Polk at 37 or failing to acquire any meaningful veteran roster upgrades other than a rotation running back was a good use of the team’s resources
Maye was the right pick. The rest of the off-season from coaching decisions to personnel decisions has been a disaster.
If you didn’t take Maye, you’d never stay at #3. At a minimum you’d have asked for #6, #35 and a 1st next year.
With that, they could have taken tackle or receiver at 6 and #35 and have two firsts the next year to further build the offense.
But, if they finish, say 6th this year, it’s a risky strategy because getting up to get a top QB prospect would cost more than the two first round picks they would have. So there’s no obvious or correct answer. They just need to get lucky with some players.
Ultimately we are having this thread cause the offense has almost no talent and if Maye is the real deal, they can hope to trade down next year and build the offense around their young QB.
With that, they could have taken tackle or receiver at 6 and #35 and have two firsts the next year to further build the offense.
But, if they finish, say 6th this year, it’s a risky strategy because getting up to get a top QB prospect would cost more than the two first round picks they would have. So there’s no obvious or correct answer. They just need to get lucky with some players.
Ultimately we are having this thread cause the offense has almost no talent and if Maye is the real deal, they can hope to trade down next year and build the offense around their young QB.
This is a pretty bad QB year, you're looking at 2026 or 2027 before you get a Maye level prospect.
yep, also the margins matter. If you think Maye can be a top 10 QB... that's miles better than a guy who can be a top 20. Where a top 10 LT and a top 20 LT... both more than good enough to help you win.
This is fair. I think they tried to give people their cap space. No one took it. And it seemed like they had no plan. I'll also grant them Mayo, but the offensive coaching staff is a joke and will probably be gone for 2025, so they'll have to train up Maye on a whole new system again.
This team is hamstrung by the QB. Same as last year. Same as the year before. I was sold a slightly used Jacoby Brissett who wouldn’t turn the ball over. What they forgot to mention is that he wouldn’t do anything to help the offense either. I have zero faith in any throw beyond 5-10 yards. Each deep throw is a wasted play because it has a zero percent chance of going in our favor. So many check downs… Bourne, Polk, Douglas, Henry hell even Hooper and Boutte all have talent that will never get realized because the QB is one read and throw behind the LOS.
What else is interesting to me are the people that knew this team would suck but are complaining about the coaching. Roster is apparently bereft of talent but Mayo is making them lose the wrong way. They should be losing better I guess?
What else is interesting to me are the people that knew this team would suck but are complaining about the coaching. Roster is apparently bereft of talent but Mayo is making them lose the wrong way. They should be losing better I guess?
I think being bad and being bad and poorly coached are different things.
The entire off-season, other than getting Maye, seems to be a disaster.
The team looks sloppy and unprepared. Busted coverages one week, stupid penalties the next, missed blocking assignment on a FG, sloppy fumbles, questionable playcalling, bad time management
I think people would (generally) be ok at 1-4 if the future looked bright. Right now it looks like a roster which somehow got worse except at QB being led by a very inexperienced coaching staff which has shown its inexperience a lot.
Unless Drake Maye is the next Brady (or Mahomes or even Josh Allen), there’s not a lot to be optimistic about for 2025. The team does not appear to be moving in the right direction and it’s hard to see - absent the savior Maye scenario - how they’re going to right the ship
I'd rather be in our situation than in Cleveland's situation.
I think a lot of the frustration here is due to the decision to keep Maye on the bench for the time being. We're like kids whose parents believe Christmas presents should not be opened until January 6. So while all the other kids in the neighborhood are discovering the joys of playing with a GI Joe WITH KUNG FU GRIP, we're stuck with last year's kung fu gripless GI Joe. If we were losing these games and Maye was showing the progress that Williams, Daniels, and even Nix have been showing over the starts of their careers, the Pats record might not be any better, but I believe we'd all be feeling better about them.
We were a heel and/or a missed Slye FG from winning this game. We're near the bottom, but there are worse situations we could be in. (Browns, Panthers, for starters)
I think a lot of the frustration here is due to the decision to keep Maye on the bench for the time being. We're like kids whose parents believe Christmas presents should not be opened until January 6. So while all the other kids in the neighborhood are discovering the joys of playing with a GI Joe WITH KUNG FU GRIP, we're stuck with last year's kung fu gripless GI Joe. If we were losing these games and Maye was showing the progress that Williams, Daniels, and even Nix have been showing over the starts of their careers, the Pats record might not be any better, but I believe we'd all be feeling better about them.
We were a heel and/or a missed Slye FG from winning this game. We're near the bottom, but there are worse situations we could be in. (Browns, Panthers, for starters)
I think the offensive coaching staff is signficantly better than Mayo, they have track records of being pretty good in their roles and given the roster restrictions in terms of talent I would like to see them show patience unless someone really great becomes available.
Bo Nix is going to be 3-2. Caleb Williams is 3-2. Jayden Daniels is 4-1.
But by all means, Maye absolutely must be kept in bubble wrap. It's best for the team.
But by all means, Maye absolutely must be kept in bubble wrap. It's best for the team.
Ive been against Brissett from the start. One of the biggest issues with Brissett is that he’s such a good guy and the local media just loves him, and creates a narrative that is untrue. He simply is nothing other than a backup and playing him as a starter demonstrates a high level of organizational incompetence.
Track record of being good in their roles? AVP has never been a playcaller and Peters has never been an OL coach (just an assistant)
Not disputing that they’re probably better than Mayo (who seems like a disaster this far) but I don’t know that the track record is really such that we can assume the offensive staff is being held back by Mayo/terrible talent (Wolf)
Caleb Williams is a bit of a different story since the Bears weren’t in full rebuild
Denver and Washington are better run teams than the Pats (although I’m not a fan of Quinn he’s at least a proven mediocrity as HC). Both of those teams are trying to win and have been making moves to do so since the beginning of the offseason.
the Pats preemptively punted on 2024 when they sat out veteran free agency except for a bunch of dumpster diving (which has predictably yielded garbage).
AVP in fact has called plays, just not last year. And Peters is a well regarded coach. Nothing about them screams that they should be replaced, especially for O-line continuity is good, and given the vaguely acceptable level we've gotten the last couple weeks from practice squad guys I think Peters is showing something, he's turning a burning landfill into a normal landfill.
Edit- should also note that playcalling is not the end all be all of Offensive coordinator job, AVP has been a coordinator on an offense that integrated a bunch of QBs and RBs and O-linemen well in CLE, and got a lot out of not much at QB (a lot more than the new OC is, even with the same playcalling HC)
The Bears have been in a rebuild for 10 years. Washington was worse than the Pats last year and was literally the worst franchise in the NFL since 2000. Denver hasn't made the playoffs since 2015.
These teams have not been competing.
If Washington is a better run franchise than the Pats then the answer to the thread question is pretty clear.
When has AVP been a full time playcaller? For the 2009 Bills which were 30th in offense? He was never the playcaller in Cleveland AFAIK
I think Wolf has been the most disappointing. Given the state of the roster you would like to see some new guys brought in that showed flashes of anything since there is plenty of PT to go around, but they really haven't. BB always seemed to find a couple guys from off the scrap heap who were helpful, usually on defense.
But, he presumably had a hand in getting guys in previous years who have shown flashes this year, so there is time. This was always going to be a tough year and you just hope they show some fight and semblance of a decent team by November imho.
But, he presumably had a hand in getting guys in previous years who have shown flashes this year, so there is time. This was always going to be a tough year and you just hope they show some fight and semblance of a decent team by November imho.
not sure what your point is although it’s weird to suggest Chicago has been in a rebuild for 10 years when they won 12 games and their division in 2018 and made the playoffs in 2020. Their roster is also a year ahead of the Pats (or more) in terms of talent acquisition.
Washington was terrible last year and actually tried to rebuild. That was my point. They signed some key free agents. Did a good search for HC and GM. Tried to improve. The Pats basically said “we got rid of BB and added Maye, we’re good”
AVP is awful. Terrible. Incompetent. He is what he is and always was. Those responsible for this hire are complicit.
Run the ball today and they win. Simple as that. Don't get me wrong. The team blows. But they could have won against a crippled Miami team.
Run the ball today and they win. Simple as that. Don't get me wrong. The team blows. But they could have won against a crippled Miami team.
Like I get what you’re saying but Bo Nix played like 8 years of college ball. Daniels 5 and Williams 3. Maye played 2. Reps matter.
wasn’t a lot of the risk of dumping BB but keeping Wolf that BB knew which dumpster dive type guys he could “coach up” (thinking guys like Van Noy, Tavai, A.Branch, Arrington etc)?
I think buying the groceries in the discount aisle is a lot more viable when you know exactly how to cover up those guys’ flaws and get the most out of them
Similar to how they could pick up any number of trash heap OL and Scar could coach them into a good unit. Presumably BB knew Scar’s type of guy and they coordinated on the acquisitions (thinking guys like Ashworth, Connolly, Wendell, Hochstein et al)
Fair point but there is a huge jump from the ACC to the NFL so getting him somewhat comfortable about what he’ll deal with in the NFL via film and practice isn’t the worst idea. I’m ready to see him too trust me. But I don’t think the strategy they have taken so far is the worst one.
This was brought up in the game thread and might well be a reason they stuck with Brissett this week.
Going forward, you'd like to think Maybe can be brought up to speed on that quickly
Drafting what everyone knew was a developmental QB meant that this was always going to be a multi-season rebuild. The draft capital is something this team desperately needs, so being really bad this season is not the worst outcome for the long term.
Probably is time to give Maye the reins for a bit.
Probably is time to give Maye the reins for a bit.
But IIRC most QBs described as needing to sit for a while aren't drafted as high as 3rd. Most QBs taken that high are expected to play right away.
They're wasting a year of his rookie contract and he's getting zero game experience. When KC drafted Mahomes, they were a good team and had Alex Smith leading them into the playoffs that year; sitting Mahomes didn't hurt them on the field. The Pats don't have anyone better than Maye on the roster. Mayo has never developed anything or anyone before either.
This whole approach baffles me. He needs to play, practice and film are one thing but game speed is something only experience can teach. Williams and Daniels are lighting it up; even Nix is playing well. They really can't play Maye at all?
If the Pats decided that they couldn't risk a rookie QB behind their OL, then they should have drafted Alt instead, because they are showing that they value OL more than QB.
look at bo nix getter better every week denver OL is almost as bad as yours at pass blk
Have to say I don't really get this. He wasn't that much of a project. This isn't Lance or Allen coming out of a small school with a bunch of tools but no experience at a high level. He was running an offense in a major conference. He was in the gun a lot but it wasn't some gimmicky offense. He had two full years as starter. Does he need time to develop? Sure. But it's not materially different from his peers. He had a year or two less as a starting QB, but two years is not unusual for a high pick.
That many teams make bad decisions with their quarterbacks doesn't mean it isn't a bad decision. Zach Wilson needed to sit.. he didn't, and he failed, same for guys like Darnold, etc.
The problem is you have decided that YOU know the best way to develop a QB. They disagree.
Think on it this way. Assume that playing before you are ready is NOT good for development (something a number of successful franchises seem to think), and go from that starting point.... why start Maye now?
You keep circling back to this nonsense argument based on:
1. The assumption that the O-line is why he isn't starting, despite zero evidence.
2. The massive leap that this means they think O-line is more important than franchise QB... which even IF they weren't starting him for that reason (again no indication that is true) isn't a logical conclusion.
Edit- the Patriots made it clear that they did not expect Maye to start from day 1, and that his starting would be based on what was best for his development. this fits well with Wolf's philosophy coming from GB where they draft QBs and sit them. That the team is bad now doesn't change how you develop your QB... getting the best out of a franchise QB is worth far more than a small boost (if any) in starting him before you think he's ready.
My point is that if a QB needs to sit he shouldn't be drafted at 3. Or 2 like Wilson. It's a waste of a rookie contract year and a waste of a season. If he needs to sit he's by definition a project and you simply cannot draft a project that high. Drafting that high means you are in dire need of immediate help and should plan accordingly.
If they thought they needed to develop him for a year, then I don't think he's worthy of a top 5 draft pick. Williams and Daniels seem to be doing just fine by playing.
EDIT: they are also giving the years-long development of a QB to a guy who's never even called plays before. This strikes me as unideal. As for Wolf's GB philosophy, they took Rodgers 24th and Love in the second round. Not 3rd overall. Very, very different circumstances there (for one, GB was good when they took those two QBs). Also, IMO it's bad for a QB's development to be on a team that will likely go 1-16 and have a losing culture around him. But what do I know.
If they thought they needed to develop him for a year, then I don't think he's worthy of a top 5 draft pick. Williams and Daniels seem to be doing just fine by playing.
EDIT: they are also giving the years-long development of a QB to a guy who's never even called plays before. This strikes me as unideal. As for Wolf's GB philosophy, they took Rodgers 24th and Love in the second round. Not 3rd overall. Very, very different circumstances there (for one, GB was good when they took those two QBs). Also, IMO it's bad for a QB's development to be on a team that will likely go 1-16 and have a losing culture around him. But what do I know.
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Carolina is also historically terrible. Seems pretty clear that they're the two worst. Too bad they won't meet to settle it on the field this year.
Maye's college experience is light for this particular draft class:
Caleb Williams: 3 seasons, 1099 passes thrown
Jayden Daniels: 4+ seasons, 1438 pass attempts
Michael Penix: 2 full and 4 partial seasons, 1685 attempts
JJ McCarthy: 3 seasons, 632 attempts
Bo Nix: 5 seasons, 1936 pass attempts
Drake Maye: 2+ seasons, 952 passes. Note also that 512 of those attempts were in one season (led NCAA FBS).
Bill Belichick made this very same point, and he knows something about football.
Carolina has Andy Dalton. They would kick the shit out of this Pats team with Dalton playing.
That would have been impossible. The Pats could not have moved up to #12 with the draft capital they had.
The succession plan was flawed from the start, and retro fitting a GM to work with a completely unproven head coach who had already been hired never sat well with me. I won’t re-litigate the wisdom of firing Bill, but this plan has been an ass-backward mess. I fear the re-build is going to be an extra long one, because I think the coach and/or GM will also need to be replaced before too much longer.
It’s not a waste of a contract year if sitting him is the best way to maximize the likelihood he fulfills his potential. i’d rather have maxed out maye in year 4 than year 1 maye playing meaningless games for a losing team, assuming that sitting him is the best path for development. which they clearly think
Or it means you are looking at a multi-year rebuild process, and want to kickstart it with the best QB prospect available, even if that QB cannot contribute immediately.
But by the time the team is better that you feel comfortable starting him, he's near the end of his rookie deal. That's very bad.
If you're looking at a multi-year rebuild process, you probably don't want to pay/lose the QB first.
But sitting him some is not necessarily bad, right? Forget Brady - that was eons ago. Just recent excellent QBs that sat their rookie years (all or in large part):
Love
Mahomes
Tua (half the season)
Lamar
Hurts
So it’s not always bad to sit a QB. The question is… how long can he sit before it does get to be bad? They’re thinking long term on this one.
We're talking one season. Maybe part of one season. That's not "near the end of his rookie deal".
And you do pick the QB when you believe he is the best prospect available. Next year's QB draft class could be historically awful.