R1/3: Drake Maye QB UNC

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Its almost unfathomable that it could get worse than last year. Although, I said that before last season too. QB play the last two years made everyone else on offense look bad. Maye represents a significant upgrade at the most important position on the field. By association the offense should look better. If Brissett and Maye were clones of each other I could see the reasoning behind letting Maye get acclimated. They're not though. Jacoby is the perfect backup. Someone that will keep you in the game or multiple games if the starter goes down. Maye has the ability to make plays if the protection breaks down. Do I want to see him have to do that all the time? No. Is it a possibility if he starts right away? Absolutely. Should that preclude them from letting the kid play? The mileage is all over hell on that one. I say no. See what the kid can do. If that means running for his life having to throw on the move than so be it. The fanbase shouldn't stand for a feel it out year. How do you explain that to the casual fan? Its ok that they're unwatchable this year, just wait until 2025. Because the rookie LT is going to be a world beater? Please.

Now, if Drake looks like shit in the preseason I redact all of this. I don't really see it happening though. I think the kid is the real deal. Hes been vocal, hard working and has a great attitude. All of that on top of the athletic ability looks like a winner to me.

 

[dynomite]

I don't think anyone is actually saying "wait until it's a good OL" because that's dumb. What they likely mean is that since we're running a new system, it may take training camp for it to come together and figure out the combo that works. Finding the team's *best OL* is what's important.

Exactly this. Not to mention Maye is a green rookie learning the offense and facing NFL game speed for the first time, etc.

To narrow the discussion, I believe what's on the table is (1) starting Maye in Week 1 vs (2) waiting to start him until Week 6 or so, at which point we've probably figured out what our best O line is.

If someone's suggesting we bubble wrap Maye for the entire season, I guess I missed it.

*raises hand*

I'd be fine with it. Red shirting for a year didn't seem to hurt Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers (for multiple years), Jordan Love, Kirk Cousins, or many other QBs we could mention, and given that I expect the 2024 Patriots to be bad I'm in no rush to see Maye. @DJnVa has pointed out that for some QBs it's critical for their development to get game reps, and that's the path of other successful QBs (Big Ben, Burrow, CJ Stroud, Herbert, etc.). Obviously we don't know if that's the case with Maye, but I'm in no rush to find out.

 

[DJnVa]

Exactly this. Not to mention Maye is a green rookie learning the offense and facing NFL game speed for the first time, etc.



*raises hand*

I'd be fine with it. Red shirting for a year didn't seem to hurt Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers (for multiple years), Jordan Love, Kirk Cousins, or many other QBs we could mention, and given that I expect the 2024 Patriots to be bad I'm in no rush to see Maye. @DJnVa has pointed out that for some QBs it's critical for their development to get game reps, and that's the path of other successful QBs (Big Ben, Burrow, CJ Stroud, Herbert, etc.). Obviously we don't know if that's the case with Maye, but I'm in no rush to find out.

That said, there are some differences:

Brady: was drafted late, wasn't being redshirted to give him time to acclimate. He was a longshot.
Mahomes: team had established QB in Alex Smith, so there was a different plan, although this feels closest, but he wasn't going to beat out Smith.
Rodgers: team had Favre and it was almost 20 years ago.
Love: team had Rodgers, no need at all to play Love.
Cousins: was the second QB drafted by his team that season. He wasn't being redshirted to get him ready.

 

[dynomite]

That said, there are some differences:

Brady: was drafted late, wasn't being redshirted to give him time to acclimate. He was a longshot.
Mahomes: team had established QB in Alex Smith, so there was a different plan, although this feels closest, but he wasn't going to beat out Smith.
Rodgers: team had Favre and it was almost 20 years ago.
Love: team had Rodgers, no need at all to play Love.
Cousins: was the second QB drafted by his team that season. He wasn't being redshirted to get him ready.

Sure, there will always be differences.

Another example could be Lamar Jackson. Obviously a different situation because Flacco was established and had won a SB with the Ravens, but Lamar's rookie season he didn't start/play meaningful snaps until Week 10 (November 18th), team was 4-5 at the time.

And Brady himself has come pretty close to saying that sitting for a year was critical for him:

But like Brady, Love had the time to learn a system and soak in all the information before he was ready. And Love showed after a slow start that he was more than ready. Love led the Packers into the playoffs in his first year starting and had the second-most touchdowns (32) in the NFL.

While every situation and player is different, NFL legend Tom Brady said the Packers' formula is how it should be done.

"You look at Jordan Love ... he had Aaron Rodgers to watch," Brady said on "The Herd with Colin Cowherd" on Tuesday. "That's the best type of training, in my opinion. Watch someone else do it at a very high level and then try to emulate them with your own personality."...

"I had Drew Bledsoe to look up to," Brady said of the Pro Bowl quarterback who was the starter when he arrived to the Partirots in 2000. "I got to sit from behind him and watch him every single day. I had a real mentor to look up to in Drew."...

"Maybe a little bit of a misnomer with the draft is these players can come in and all of sudden can be these great professional players without the training and development," Brady said.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2024/05/29/tom-brady-praises-green-bay-packers-jordan-love-aaron-rodgers-fox-sports/73896948007/

I've made my peace with waiting for Mayer, Teel, and Anthony on the Red Sox. I know the NFL is a totally different animal, but I'm willing to make my peace with waiting for Maye in a rebuilding year for the Pats.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

So when Jacobys lifeless body is taken off the field who are you putting in?

Michael Bishop. Tanned, rested, and ready.

 

[BaseballJones]

He'll be 22 on August 30, so 2024 represents his age 22 season. If he sits the entire season, when he has his "real" rookie year in 2025, he'll be just 23.

Brady's "real" rookie year was in 2001 at age 24.
Mahomes' "real" rookie year was in 2018 at age 23.
Burrow's "real" rookie year was in 2020 at age 24.
Daniels' "real" rookie year will be 2024 at age 23.

So nothing whatsoever wrong with Maye sitting a season and getting his first real action at age 23. Yes they lose a year of his play on a cheap rookie deal, but if he's the answer at QB, who cares - he'll be given a humongous long term deal anyway.

Of course, I'd rather see him win the job right out of the gate and have a fantastic rookie season.

 

[dynomite]

He'll be 22 on August 30, so 2024 represents his age 22 season. If he sits the entire season, when he has his "real" rookie year in 2025, he'll be just 23.

Brady's "real" rookie year was in 2001 at age 24.
Mahomes' "real" rookie year was in 2018 at age 23.
Burrow's "real" rookie year was in 2020 at age 24.
Daniels' "real" rookie year will be 2024 at age 23.

So nothing whatsoever wrong with Maye sitting a season and getting his first real action at age 23. Yes they lose a year of his play on a cheap rookie deal, but if he's the answer at QB, who cares - he'll be given a humongous long term deal anyway.

Of course, I'd rather see him win the job right out of the gate and have a fantastic rookie season.

Agree with all of this.

Maye's also overhauling his footwork and spent his college career in the ACC -- the top ranked team he played last year (I believe?) was ranked #22 (NC State). We're betting the near-term future of the franchise on the kid, I won't be upset if they let him sit & learn for a few months.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Sure, there will always be differences.

Another example could be Lamar Jackson. Obviously a different situation because Flacco was established and had won a SB with the Ravens, but Lamar's rookie season he didn't start/play meaningful snaps until Week 10 (November 18th), team was 4-5 at the time.

And Brady himself has come pretty close to saying that sitting for a year was critical for him:



https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2024/05/29/tom-brady-praises-green-bay-packers-jordan-love-aaron-rodgers-fox-sports/73896948007/

I've made my peace with waiting for Mayer, Teel, and Anthony on the Red Sox. I know the NFL is a totally different animal, but I'm willing to make my peace with waiting for Maye in a rebuilding year for the Pats.

IMO the Lamar scenario is the correct one. Give him half a season or so to watch, learn, etc. get him 4-8 games of live action so he has tape and lessons to build from all offseason. This doesn’t seem that difficult of a decision.

 

[snowmanny]

Well I know nothing, but pre-draft @SMU_Sox was pretty emphatic that Maye was a longish term project. Besides the OL issue, I’d like him to be fairly finished and relatively free of bad habits before he’s thrown out there.

 

[dynomite]

IMO the Lamar scenario is the correct one. Give him half a season or so to watch, learn, etc. get him 4-8 games of live action so he has tape and lessons to build from all offseason. This doesn’t seem that difficult of a decision.

I would be fine with that. And frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if an injury to Brissett forces the issue -- he's playing behind this bad O-Line, at 32 could have lost a step, and has only played 16 games since 2019.

Well I know nothing, but pre-draft @SMU_Sox was pretty emphatic that Maye was a longish term project. Besides the OL issue, I’d like him to be fairly finished and relatively free of bad habits before he’s thrown out there.

Right. Now, of course, Maye compares himself to Josh Allen, who was also considered something of a project, and the Bills threw him out there right away at ~halftime of Week 1. Still, everything I've read and heard suggests Maye would benefit from some time learning and watching and getting reps in practice.

 

[j44thor]

Brissett starts until the team doctor punctures his lung then all bets are off.

 

[Auger34]

Its almost unfathomable that it could get worse than last year. Although, I said that before last season too. QB play the last two years made everyone else on offense look bad. Maye represents a significant upgrade at the most important position on the field. By association the offense should look better. If Brissett and Maye were clones of each other I could see the reasoning behind letting Maye get acclimated. They're not though. Jacoby is the perfect backup. Someone that will keep you in the game or multiple games if the starter goes down. Maye has the ability to make plays if the protection breaks down. Do I want to see him have to do that all the time? No. Is it a possibility if he starts right away? Absolutely. Should that preclude them from letting the kid play? The mileage is all over hell on that one. I say no. See what the kid can do. If that means running for his life having to throw on the move than so be it. The fanbase shouldn't stand for a feel it out year. How do you explain that to the casual fan? Its ok that they're unwatchable this year, just wait until 2025. Because the rookie LT is going to be a world beater? Please.

Now, if Drake looks like shit in the preseason I redact all of this. I don't really see it happening though. I think the kid is the real deal. Hes been vocal, hard working and has a great attitude. All of that on top of the athletic ability looks like a winner to me.

The front office really shouldn’t care at all about what the casual fan thinks.

Maye should be put in when they are 100% confident that he can start every game for the rest of the year

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

The front office really shouldn’t care at all about what the casual fan thinks.

Maye should be put in when they are 100% confident that he can start every game for the rest of the year

Maybe the front office doesn’t or shouldn’t but the owners do. Attendance matters. There’s no way that they’re fine with empty seats. Not many people are going to tune in for another down year.

What does sitting Drake if he looks good say to the other players? Hey guys, you suck so badly that we’re not going to let our new QB play. We’re going to let Jacoby take the lumps until we can get some better players. What a confidence builder. Not to mention wasting a year of their careers for the greater good. I’m sure they’ll be on board for that.

If Brissett looks like better QB then sure let the kid sit but don’t make it dependent on the oline or the supporting cast.

What good is coddling this kid going to do? Let him play through some adversity if that’s the case. It builds character.

Maye having to practice against this defense is being underrated. This is a top tier unit and he’s already getting to see what it’s like at this level. Granted it’s not full speed yet but he doesn’t seem overwhelmed in the least. Maybe it changes when things get a little more serious but I doubt it. He’s putting in the work already. He’ll get the reps he needs now until his final snaps in the preseason. If he plateaus after a strong camp it will be disappointing.

 

[lexrageorge]

Maybe the front office doesn’t or shouldn’t but the owners do. Attendance matters. There’s no way that they’re fine with empty seats. Not many people are going to tune in for another down year.

What does sitting Drake if he looks good say to the other players? Hey guys, you suck so badly that we’re not going to let our new QB play. We’re going to let Jacoby take the lumps until we can get some better players. What a confidence builder. Not to mention wasting a year of their careers for the greater good. I’m sure they’ll be on board for that.

If Brissett looks like better QB then sure let the kid sit but don’t make it dependent on the oline or the supporting cast.

What good is coddling this kid going to do? Let him play through some adversity if that’s the case. It builds character.

Maye having to practice against this defense is being underrated. This is a top tier unit and he’s already getting to see what it’s like at this level. Granted it’s not full speed yet but he doesn’t seem overwhelmed in the least. Maybe it changes when things get a little more serious but I doubt it. He’s putting in the work already. He’ll get the reps he needs now until his final snaps in the preseason. If he plateaus after a strong camp it will be disappointing.

Huh? If the owners are going to overrule their coaches regarding Maye's readiness this season, then we can write off this team for the next decade or more.

There were multiple examples noted upthread of good QB's sitting their rookie seasons. It happens. It may very well happen here given Maye's youth and overall inexperience. It's not the worst thing. If he's not ready to play, he's far more likely to get hurt, especially when behind a shitty OL.

If the players in the locker room object, then the locker room sucks anyway.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Huh? If the owners are going to overrule their coaches regarding Maye's readiness this season, then we can write off this team for the next decade or more.

There were multiple examples noted upthread of good QB's sitting their rookie seasons. It happens. It may very well happen here given Maye's youth and overall inexperience. It's not the worst thing. If he's not ready to play, he's far more likely to get hurt, especially when behind a shitty OL.

If the players in the locker room object, then the locker room sucks anyway.

Imagine the owners telling the coach to play a QB he didn’t want. Like with Mac right? Are we two years into that decade of writing off?

Multiple examples of QBs sitting behind all pro QBs. I’m not suggesting throwing Maye out there if he looks worse than Jacoby. That’s pretty dumb. The protect our new toy from damage if we don’t have a perfect situation to start off is the narrative I’m arguing against.

Yeah… screw the players who want to be competitive. Those guys suck…

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Right. Now, of course, Maye compares himself to Josh Allen, who was also considered something of a project, and the Bills threw him out there right away at ~halftime of Week 1. Still, everything I've read and heard suggests Maye would benefit from some time learning and watching and getting reps in practice.

I mean, that is what the decision should be, isn't it? Is Maye ready to do his learning on the field on this Patriots team or would he benefit from a full (or partial) redshirt year before he does his leaning on the field? Brissett is more than good enough to play in the interim, if there is one, for however long it lasts.

 

[Traut]

QBs taken in the first round the last 4 years:

2023:

• Bryce Young: 1st overall to the Carolina Panthers
• C.J. Stroud: 2nd overall to the Houston Texans
• Anthony Richardson: 4th overall to the Indianapolis Colts

All of these guys started Week 1.

2022:

• Kenny Pickett: 20th overall to the Pittsburgh Steelers

Pickett started Week 5.

2021:

• Trevor Lawrence: 1st overall to the Jacksonville Jaguars
• Zach Wilson: 2nd overall to the New York Jets
• Trey Lance: 3rd overall to the San Francisco 49ers
• Justin Fields: 11th overall to the Chicago Bears
• Mac Jones: 15th overall to the New England Patriots

Lawrence, Wilson, and Jones all started week 1. Fields started week 3. Lance got hurt in pre-season.
2020:

• Joe Burrow: 1st overall to the Cincinnati Bengals
• Tua Tagovailoa: 5th overall to the Miami Dolphins
• Justin Herbert: 6th overall to the Los Angeles Chargers
• Jordan Love: 26th overall to the Green Bay Packers

Burrow, Tua, and Herbert all started Week 1. Love backed up a HOF QB.

Every QB taken in the Top 10 the last 4 drafts (aside from Lance) has started Week 1 for their respective teams.

NFL teams don't spend high picks on guys to have them sit. There's no substitute for getting game reps. If a guy sucks like Wilson, you don't wait 3 years to figure that out. You fail fast and move off him as quickly as possible.

I fully expect to see Maye under center in Week 1 barring injury.

 

[Tony C]

That said, there are some differences:

Brady: was drafted late, wasn't being redshirted to give him time to acclimate. He was a longshot.
Mahomes: team had established QB in Alex Smith, so there was a different plan, although this feels closest, but he wasn't going to beat out Smith.
Rodgers: team had Favre and it was almost 20 years ago.
Love: team had Rodgers, no need at all to play Love.
Cousins: was the second QB drafted by his team that season. He wasn't being redshirted to get him ready.

Obviously the situations have their differences, but no one is arguing that the situations are the same. The argument is whether or not the best way to develop an under-prepared rookie is to start him immediately or let him develop a bit per this post:

Well I know nothing, but pre-draft @SMU_Sox was pretty emphatic that Maye was a longish term project. Besides the OL issue, I’d like him to be fairly finished and relatively free of bad habits before he’s thrown out there.

There is definitely a trend to start highly draft QBs immediately, but plenty of cases where not doing so seems to work out well. It's beyond our knowledge to know exactly where Maye is on the spectrum of readiness, but as snowmanny says the time to start him is when he's deemed ready. No reason to start him just to start him before that.

 

[Rudy's Curve]

QBs taken in the first round the last 4 years:

2023:

• Bryce Young: 1st overall to the Carolina Panthers
• C.J. Stroud: 2nd overall to the Houston Texans
• Anthony Richardson: 4th overall to the Indianapolis Colts

All of these guys started Week 1.

2022:

• Kenny Pickett: 20th overall to the Pittsburgh Steelers

Pickett started Week 5.

2021:

• Trevor Lawrence: 1st overall to the Jacksonville Jaguars
• Zach Wilson: 2nd overall to the New York Jets
• Trey Lance: 3rd overall to the San Francisco 49ers
• Justin Fields: 11th overall to the Chicago Bears
• Mac Jones: 15th overall to the New England Patriots

Lawrence, Wilson, and Jones all started week 1. Fields started week 3. Lance got hurt in pre-season.
2020:

• Joe Burrow: 1st overall to the Cincinnati Bengals
• Tua Tagovailoa: 5th overall to the Miami Dolphins
• Justin Herbert: 6th overall to the Los Angeles Chargers
• Jordan Love: 26th overall to the Green Bay Packers

Burrow, Tua, and Herbert all started Week 1. Love backed up a HOF QB.

Every QB taken in the Top 10 the last 4 drafts (aside from Lance) has started Week 1 for their respective teams.

NFL teams don't spend high picks on guys to have them sit. There's no substitute for getting game reps. If a guy sucks like Wilson, you don't wait 3 years to figure that out. You fail fast and move off him as quickly as possible.

I fully expect to see Maye under center in Week 1 barring injury.

Minor nitpick, but Tua didn't start until Week 8. Herbert didn't start Week 1 either and only started Week 2 because the team doctor punctured Tyrod Taylor's lung before the game.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Usually guys who sit are on good teams or behind good QB’s, though. The Pats don’t seem to fit that description at all. I’d be inclined to play Maye. If he’s gonna get killed because the line stinks, then he’ll probably be starting before long once JB gets hurt.

 

[rodderick]

I feel like people are arguing two different things. I don't believe anyone here is clamoring for Maye to start games before he's ready, or to just go through a trial by fire like Peyton in 98. If you're not confident he's there with his mechanics, his grasp of the scheme, his timing, you sit him. Now, if you believe him to be ready, some people would still want him to sit until the team around him is established enough so that he doesn't get injured/shell shocked/develops bad habits, while some would rather he start as soon as his personal development is deemed to be up to snuff, regardless of what the OL/receiver situation is.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Its almost unfathomable that it could get worse than last year. Although, I said that before last season too. QB play the last two years made everyone else on offense look bad. Maye represents a significant upgrade at the most important position on the field. By association the offense should look better. If Brissett and Maye were clones of each other I could see the reasoning behind letting Maye get acclimated. They're not though. Jacoby is the perfect backup. Someone that will keep you in the game or multiple games if the starter goes down. Maye has the ability to make plays if the protection breaks down. Do I want to see him have to do that all the time? No. Is it a possibility if he starts right away? Absolutely. Should that preclude them from letting the kid play? The mileage is all over hell on that one. I say no. See what the kid can do. If that means running for his life having to throw on the move than so be it. The fanbase shouldn't stand for a feel it out year. How do you explain that to the casual fan? Its ok that they're unwatchable this year, just wait until 2025. Because the rookie LT is going to be a world beater? Please.

Now, if Drake looks like shit in the preseason I redact all of this. I don't really see it happening though. I think the kid is the real deal. Hes been vocal, hard working and has a great attitude. All of that on top of the athletic ability looks like a winner to me.

I don’t think it’s unfathomable at all that the OL is worse

Trent Brown, as frustrating as he is, still gave them half a season of solid to good LT play. They replaced him with a guy who has never played LT in the pros, who had a stupid high penalty/snap ratio and was cut for being a malcontent. Andrews is a year older and showing signs of decline. Strange, ignoring the 1st round pick aspect, is at least a passable NFL guard - something that Leverett and the rookies have not (yet) shown to be. Mafi looked horrendous in pass pro last year so if he’s an opening day starter, he has a long way to go.

Hopefully one of the draft picks looks good. Hopefully Sow and Mafi (or Jake Andrews I guess) can be at least passable as a pass blocker. Hopefully David Andrews stays healthy and doesn’t decline. Hopefully 17 games of Okorafor is roughly equivalent to half a season of Brown+ half a season of garbage (Lowe et al). But a lot of things need to go right for this line to be better than last year.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

I feel like people are arguing two different things. I don't believe anyone here is clamoring for Maye to start games before he's ready, or to just go through a trial by fire like Peyton in 98. If you're not confident he's there with his mechanics, his grasp of the scheme, his timing, you sit him. Now, if you believe him to be ready, some people would still want him to sit until the team around him is established enough so that he doesn't get injured/shell shocked/develops bad habits, while some would rather he start as soon as his personal development is deemed to be up to snuff, regardless of what the OL/receiver situation is.

Yeah I think Maye starting comes down to where he is in his development as a passer, and is unrelated to where the team is with talent around him.

If it’s to his benefit to watch, learn and improve his footwork/mechanics etc, he should sit.

He shouldn’t sit because the OL and/or receivers suck because there’s no guarantee those guys will be any good in 2025 if they stink this year. At some point he has to play and you can’t wait for a situation (solid OL and WR) which may not materialize

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

I don’t think it’s unfathomable at all that the OL is worse

Trent Brown, as frustrating as he is, still gave them half a season of solid to good LT play. They replaced him with a guy who has never played LT in the pros, who had a stupid high penalty/snap ratio and was cut for being a malcontent. Andrews is a year older and showing signs of decline. Strange, ignoring the 1st round pick aspect, is at least a passable NFL guard - something that Leverett and the rookies have not (yet) shown to be. Mafi looked horrendous in pass pro last year so if he’s an opening day starter, he has a long way to go.

Hopefully one of the draft picks looks good. Hopefully Sow and Mafi (or Jake Andrews I guess) can be at least passable as a pass blocker. Hopefully David Andrews stays healthy and doesn’t decline. Hopefully 17 games of Okorafor is roughly equivalent to half a season of Brown+ half a season of garbage (Lowe et al). But a lot of things need to go right for this line to be better than last year.

I’d counter by saying a lot of things need to go wrong for the oline to look worse than last year.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I’d counter by saying a lot of things need to go wrong for the oline to look worse than last year.

Based on what? 8184 laid out a reasonable case as to why they might be worse. You wrote "nah I think that's wrong." Why do you disagree? What's the basis for your optimism?

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Based on what? 8184 laid out a reasonable case as to why they might be worse. You wrote "nah I think that's wrong." Why do you disagree? What's the basis for your optimism?

The offensive line was the second worst in the league. It was poorly coached and the injuries piled up from the get go. In order for them to be worse than that they would have to be the absolute bottom of the barrel grouping in the league. Scott Peters was a great hire as someone who’s learned a ton from one of the best oline coaches in Bill Callahan. If he can get the guys to follow process and procedure then the line should be at the very least passable which is a giant improvement. I don’t think the players we have are devoid of talent. They’ve had little to no cohesion or clear direction for at least two years with Matty P and Klemm. Apologies for not going into more detail. This is all stuff I’ve said before and kind of felt like I was just repeating myself. My original point was saying it’s highly unlikely the offense as a whole can or will be worse than last year. Yes the line is a big part but as I’ve also said before QB play is going to be the more significant variable.

 

[Jimbodandy]

The offensive line was the second worst in the league. It was poorly coached and the injuries piled up from the get go. In order for them to be worse than that they would have to be the absolute bottom of the barrel grouping in the league. Scott Peters was a great hire as someone who’s learned a ton from one of the best oline coaches in Bill Callahan. If he can get the guys to follow process and procedure then the line should be at the very least passable which is a giant improvement. I don’t think the players we have are devoid of talent. They’ve had little to no cohesion or clear direction for at least two years with Matty P and Klemm. Apologies for not going into more detail. This is all stuff I’ve said before and kind of felt like I was just repeating myself. My original point was saying it’s highly unlikely the offense as a whole can or will be worse than last year. Yes the line is a big part but as I’ve also said before QB play is going to be the more significant variable.

Better injury luck is certainly something to wish on. I'm also sold that Klemm didn't help.

I think that it's a coin flip as to whether the players are an upgrade. I can understand arguments both ways.

And yes better QB play probably makes the line look better too.

We'll see.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

The offensive line was the second worst in the league. It was poorly coached and the injuries piled up from the get go. In order for them to be worse than that they would have to be the absolute bottom of the barrel grouping in the league. Scott Peters was a great hire as someone who’s learned a ton from one of the best oline coaches in Bill Callahan. If he can get the guys to follow process and procedure then the line should be at the very least passable which is a giant improvement. I don’t think the players we have are devoid of talent. They’ve had little to no cohesion or clear direction for at least two years with Matty P and Klemm. Apologies for not going into more detail. This is all stuff I’ve said before and kind of felt like I was just repeating myself. My original point was saying it’s highly unlikely the offense as a whole can or will be worse than last year. Yes the line is a big part but as I’ve also said before QB play is going to be the more significant variable.

Scott Peters may or not be a great hire, certainly his bona fides and resume are more unknown than Klemm’s when Klemm took over and look how that worked out. Simply being an assistant under one of the GOAT’s doesn’t mean you’re going to have the same level of success (or anything close to it) especially if the talent is bad.

Klemm seemed to be really questionable at his job (and certainly Steelers fans weren’t enamored with him after his brief stint as their OL coach) and then went MIA, so perhaps there’s nowhere to go but up, but I would also argue that few NFL OL coaches are real difference makers when it comes to elevating talent noticeably. If Mafi and Sow are simply bad pass blockers, if Okorafor is simply a #3/swing tackle forced into being a starting LT, it doesn’t matter how much the coaching improves because those guys are still going to struggle because they just don’t have the skills. The same way we saw dozens of Pats OL fail under Scarnecchia who (along with Callahan) is clearly a HOF coach.

It’s easy to blame coaching, and I’m not saying the coaching won’t improve, but I don’t see anything in the track records of Leverett, Wheatley, Lowe or Okorafor to suggest they’re going to be NFL caliber starters or any better then what was on the field last year. Mafi and J.Andrews weren’t prized pass blocking prospects or guys with perceived high ceilings who were just clearly mishandled by the coaching staff.

Right now they have 2 proven NFL quality starters. One is old and declining (albeit still solid) and the other (Onwenu) is at best decent at pass protection at his new(ish) position while being excellent as a run blocker. The rest of the OL is a mystery right now.

It’s early early days still. My only real point was that it’s quite easy to fathom a world where the OL is worse. If your 4 non-LT guys are basically as is from last year (2 plus players and 2 average to below average but not outright horrendous players), you’re relying on Okorafor (or someone else) being better than the combo of Brown/garbage. All it takes for this group to be worse is an Onwenu/Andrews injury, Andrews decline or a total failure at LT. Which are certainly possible outcomes.

Lastly, I think the “2nd worst” OL by whatever metric is unlikely to be achieved again simply because better or at least smarter QB play will make the OL look a bit better. But in terms of actual blocking performance of the 5 guys in front of the QB? I think a lot needs to go right for the unit to be appreciably better than last year.

 

[Rico Guapo]

I don’t think it’s unfathomable at all that the OL is worse

Trent Brown, as frustrating as he is, still gave them half a season of solid to good LT play. They replaced him with a guy who has never played LT in the pros, who had a stupid high penalty/snap ratio and was cut for being a malcontent. Andrews is a year older and showing signs of decline. Strange, ignoring the 1st round pick aspect, is at least a passable NFL guard - something that Leverett and the rookies have not (yet) shown to be. Mafi looked horrendous in pass pro last year so if he’s an opening day starter, he has a long way to go.

Hopefully one of the draft picks looks good. Hopefully Sow and Mafi (or Jake Andrews I guess) can be at least passable as a pass blocker. Hopefully David Andrews stays healthy and doesn’t decline. Hopefully 17 games of Okorafor is roughly equivalent to half a season of Brown+ half a season of garbage (Lowe et al). But a lot of things need to go right for this line to be better than last year.

He was a turnstile for about half the season and quit on the team repeatedly. I agree with you the OL is basically an unknown at this point, and could very well be worse than the 23 shitshow, but not having Trent Brown at LT is addition by subtraction.

 

[Jimbodandy]

He was a turnstile for about half the season and quit on the team repeatedly. I agree with you the OL is basically an unknown at this point, and could very well be worse than the 23 shitshow, but not having Trent Brown at LT is addition by subtraction.

Trent is funny because he's kinda viewed from the lens of the watcher. Good Trent is a plus player. Bad Trent is a guy who gets QBs killed. We saw both last year, sometimes in the same game. It's not just injuries with him. He's an odd duck.

I love the idea that the guys that we drafted will be improvements. Maybe they will. But they also might not be.

I don't fault folks for optimism, but it's crazy to fault folks for pessimism here too. We had a second and used it on a WR, while higher rated tackles were still on the board.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Scott Peters may or not be a great hire, certainly his bona fides and resume are more unknown than Klemm’s when Klemm took over and look how that worked out. Simply being an assistant under one of the GOAT’s doesn’t mean you’re going to have the same level of success (or anything close to it) especially if the talent is bad.

Klemm seemed to be really questionable at his job (and certainly Steelers fans weren’t enamored with him after his brief stint as their OL coach) and then went MIA, so perhaps there’s nowhere to go but up, but I would also argue that few NFL OL coaches are real difference makers when it comes to elevating talent noticeably. If Mafi and Sow are simply bad pass blockers, if Okorafor is simply a #3/swing tackle forced into being a starting LT, it doesn’t matter how much the coaching improves because those guys are still going to struggle because they just don’t have the skills. The same way we saw dozens of Pats OL fail under Scarnecchia who (along with Callahan) is clearly a HOF coach.

It’s easy to blame coaching, and I’m not saying the coaching won’t improve, but I don’t see anything in the track records of Leverett, Wheatley, Lowe or Okorafor to suggest they’re going to be NFL caliber starters or any better then what was on the field last year. Mafi and J.Andrews weren’t prized pass blocking prospects or guys with perceived high ceilings who were just clearly mishandled by the coaching staff.

Right now they have 2 proven NFL quality starters. One is old and declining (albeit still solid) and the other (Onwenu) is at best decent at pass protection at his new(ish) position while being excellent as a run blocker. The rest of the OL is a mystery right now.

It’s early early days still. My only real point was that it’s quite easy to fathom a world where the OL is worse. If your 4 non-LT guys are basically as is from last year (2 plus players and 2 average to below average but not outright horrendous players), you’re relying on Okorafor (or someone else) being better than the combo of Brown/garbage. All it takes for this group to be worse is an Onwenu/Andrews injury, Andrews decline or a total failure at LT. Which are certainly possible outcomes.

Lastly, I think the “2nd worst” OL by whatever metric is unlikely to be achieved again simply because better or at least smarter QB play will make the OL look a bit better. But in terms of actual blocking performance of the 5 guys in front of the QB? I think a lot needs to go right for the unit to be appreciably better than last year.

I’ll play contrarian I suppose. Funny you don’t really mention Sow as a positive. He came on strong as the season went on and was playing pretty well by the end. That makes 3 out of the 5 (including Andrews and Onwenu) as already passable or better. I’m expecting some mix of Okorafor, Anderson or Wallace (the latter two you don’t seem to mention either) to provide non-turnstile performance from LT. It’s an extremely low bar. It’s entirely possible we see an Okorafor, Sow, Andrews, Onwenu, Wallace starting 5. That doesn’t seem too awful does it? I was really hoping for a Wallace, Strange, Andrews, Sow, Onwenu line but I’m growing concerned about the probability of Strange ever living up to potential due to injuries.

Klemm had zero pedigree. He was coaching the Oregon oline and was only brought in because Bill, who has freely admitted this, wasn’t bringing in anyone he didn’t already know. I had hopes he would bring some consistency to the line but he wasn’t present for whatever reason. I think it was mostly health but who cares. He was a net negative.

Dozens of linemen fail under Dante? Maybe since he coached for so damn long but I don’t remember him failing at coaching up players often if at all.

I am under the assumption that Peter’s is trying to implement a scheme that’s been proven effective in the current state of the NFL. Just being under Callahan doesn’t guarantee success that’s true, but it certainly gives him a step in the right direction. I have no idea what Patricia and Klemm were trying to do and neither did the players. That was painfully evident.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I can envision a world where Mac Jones was a better player if he spent a season working on his mechanics. I think the margin for him to be successful (or even adequate) was so thin that he needed every advantage he could get, and shit mechanics and the tendency to try to play heroball were 2 things in his control that he didn't maximize.

Maye is not in the same boat because he has tools and thus more margin for error.

I don't think it harms Maye in the long run to make him win the job away from Brissett. I think Brissett and Maye are the 2 best QBs the Pats have had since Brady left. But I don't see a world where Maye is, indeed, the Pats QB of the future but also he isn't good enough to, eventually, beat out Brissett and needs to have the job given to him.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

Mac Jones could work on his mechanics until the cows come home and he would still get undermined by his lizard brain going into flight mode the second a DL looks like they're shedding their blocker.

 

[Bowser]

I don't subscribe to PFF, but here's what's available for free, from last season:

T Brown: 579 snaps, 2 penalties, 3 sacks, 80.2 rating
C Okorafor: 436 snaps, 8 penalties, 2 sacks, 60.4 rating
V Lowe: 476 snaps, 2 penalties, 6 sacks, 41.7 rating

Chuks is roughly the average of Brown and Lowe, except for the penalties. I'm not optimistic.

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

I don't subscribe to PFF, but here's what's available for free, from last season:

T Brown: 579 snaps, 2 penalties, 3 sacks, 80.2 rating
C Okorafor: 436 snaps, 8 penalties, 2 sacks, 60.4 rating
V Lowe: 476 snaps, 2 penalties, 6 sacks, 41.7 rating

Chuks is roughly the average of Brown and Lowe, except for the penalties. I'm not optimistic.

You shouldn't be. Brown was the 11th rated qualifying tackle on PFF last season, and Okafor was 55th.

Brown had a huge split--ranked #7 for run D and 27th on passing D.

 

[nighthob]

I feel like people are arguing two different things. I don't believe anyone here is clamoring for Maye to start games before he's ready, or to just go through a trial by fire like Peyton in 98. If you're not confident he's there with his mechanics, his grasp of the scheme, his timing, you sit him. Now, if you believe him to be ready, some people would still want him to sit until the team around him is established enough so that he doesn't get injured/shell shocked/develops bad habits, while some would rather he start as soon as his personal development is deemed to be up to snuff, regardless of what the OL/receiver situation is.

I think he has a lot of bad habits as is, and they might be fixable. The odds of fixing them when he’s running for his life from the moment the ball is snapped makes starting him week one unideal, I think.

 

[SMU_Sox]

This is one of the worst (please note I didn’t say the singular worst) situations a rookie first round QB has been dropped into. Minus maybe David Carr I can’t think of a great example of scarring someone into bad habits permanently of late. Lawrence rebounded for example even if he hasn’t lived up to his hype. And I think scarring is different from not improving. Scarring to me is a guy getting worse over time and picking up bad habits he didn’t come into the league with. Justin Fields just never got better. He wasn’t scarred by his situation even if it impeded him from improving. I think it is hard to scar a rookie. You need 1-2 years of poor coaching and poor talent. The Pats might have poor coaching and talent. We don’t know how things are going to unfold the next two years. Right now they have a bottom 5/bottom 10 roster which could change if their draft picks hit, they sign better FAs, they make a trade, etc. They also have relatively unproven coaches (painting with an overly broad brush but point is sound). So to me Maye is in a situation where he might not develop and could even regress. Of course he could be the next MVP in 2026 but the odds of him not working out due to landing spot are higher than most other first round QBs drafted the last decade or so. Start or not start doesn’t really matter if the situation is bad and stays bad.

Oh and if he wins the job it would be a mistake to not let him start in a bad situation. You lose the locker room and erode culture and trust if you don’t let him start if he earns it.

Let’s see how he does in a more competitive environment and hope he gives JB a tremendous effort to wrestle the job away from him.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I’ll play contrarian I suppose. Funny you don’t really mention Sow as a positive. He came on strong as the season went on and was playing pretty well by the end.

Sow showed a lot of ability as a run blocker. In pass pro though he struggled. And that's fairly normal. I am not sure I would say he was playing pretty well by the end of the season because he still was having consistent issues in pass pro.


See what I mean? His pass pro was actually worse in his last 6 games vs his first 7.

That makes 3 out of the 5 (including Andrews and Onwenu) as already passable or better. I’m expecting some mix of Okorafor, Anderson or Wallace (the latter two you don’t seem to mention either) to provide non-turnstile performance from LT. It’s an extremely low bar. It’s entirely possible we see an Okorafor, Sow, Andrews, Onwenu, Wallace starting 5. That doesn’t seem too awful does it? I was really hoping for a Wallace, Strange, Andrews, Sow, Onwenu line but I’m growing concerned about the probability of Strange ever living up to potential due to injuries.

2 out of the 5. Sow's pass pro was not what you want from an NFL starter. It might be passable this year if it gets better. Why are you expecting non-turnstile performance from any of those guys at LT? By their $s they are not viewed as actual starting caliber LTs, Anderson was a disaster last year and there is no guarantee his body bounces back, Okorafor was one of the league's worst RTs, and Wallace is a rookie who hasn't played LT in live reps since HS. He was also not a highly regarded prospect even if some folks saw him as a 4th rounder. Keep in mind the average to best LTs almost always are found in round 1. It's a low bar but I don't have a lot of faith the guys they have will be able to clear that bar. This is one of if not the worst LT situations on paper in the NFL.

As for the line it sounds like it could be awful, yes. It also might not be but I think you are underestimating the possibility that this is a horrific line. A lot of fans hate thinking about downside. Honestly I think most humans do. We tend to like to think about how good XYZ will be and think about potential upside and not contemplate the potential downside. You said it yourself earlier about not thinking it was possible to be worse vs 2022 and yet that happened. We are all hoping for the best of course.

Dozens of linemen fail under Dante? Maybe since he coached for so damn long but I don’t remember him failing at coaching up players often if at all.

You are right that not dozens have "failed" but yes plenty of draft picks didn't work out. That is normal though. Fitting in a discussion where we've already talked about draft bust Adrian Klemm. He was one of the best but even the best miss a lot too.

I am under the assumption that Peter’s is trying to implement a scheme that’s been proven effective in the current state of the NFL. Just being under Callahan doesn’t guarantee success that’s true, but it certainly gives him a step in the right direction. I have no idea what Patricia and Klemm were trying to do and neither did the players. That was painfully evident.

The bolded is a good point. We should have a less dysfunctional coaching staff this year and a more coordinated message. I think the coaching should be better than 2022 and 2023. So at least they have that going for them.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Sow showed a lot of ability as a run blocker. In pass pro though he struggled. And that's fairly normal. I am not sure I would say he was playing pretty well by the end of the season because he still was having consistent issues in pass pro.
View attachment 84680

See what I mean? His pass pro was actually worse in his last 6 games vs his first 7.



2 out of the 5. Sow's pass pro was not what you want from an NFL starter. It might be passable this year if it gets better. Why are you expecting non-turnstile performance from any of those guys at LT? By their $s they are not viewed as actual starting caliber LTs, Anderson was a disaster last year and there is no guarantee his body bounces back, Okorafor was one of the league's worst RTs, and Wallace is a rookie who hasn't played LT in live reps since HS. He was also not a highly regarded prospect even if some folks saw him as a 4th rounder. Keep in mind the average to best LTs almost always are found in round 1. It's a low bar but I don't have a lot of faith the guys they have will be able to clear that bar. This is one of if not the worst LT situations on paper in the NFL.

As for the line it sounds like it could be awful, yes. It also might not be but I think you are underestimating the possibility that this is a horrific line. A lot of fans hate thinking about downside. Honestly I think most humans do. We tend to like to think about how good XYZ will be and think about potential upside and not contemplate the potential downside. You said it yourself earlier about not thinking it was possible to be worse vs 2022 and yet that happened. We are all hoping for the best of course.



You are right that not dozens have "failed" but yes plenty of draft picks didn't work out. That is normal though. Fitting in a discussion where we've already talked about draft bust Adrian Klemm. He was one of the best but even the best miss a lot too.



The bolded is a good point. We should have a less dysfunctional coaching staff this year and a more coordinated message. I think the coaching should be better than 2022 and 2023. So at least they have that going for them.

Where did Sow rank among guards last year? Top half. How about run blocking? Led all rookie linemen. Gap scheme blocking? 3rd overall. Yeah he needs to improve in pass pro but not calling him solid is a bit of nitpick is it not? PFF named him to their all-rookie team and expects him to breakout this year. I didn't think I was being too optimistic there.

I guess I have more faith in a NFL coaching staff and front office to have players on the team they expect to play well? You are correct that I'm choosing not to focus on the negatives. Its depressing. Its not that I don't see the negative. Its not an ideal situation. Non-turnstile performance is extremely faint praise.

Average to best (insert position here) come from round 1. Thats not news or a new data point. The better players get drafted earlier. We've debated Wallace to death. Then we switch to paychecks. Yes, guys who get paid more are usually better players too. Onwenu is getting paid like a starting LT should we just swing him over? You're choosing to focus on the negative and pre-determine outcomes based off your opinion, your perception of the data and low expectations. I'm choosing the opposite. There are so many more factors at play than some of these guys performances last year. Situation, health, attitude, preparedness, scheme, QB play, I could literally go on and on. Almost everything has changed and I believe it to be for the better.

LT is 100% going to make or break this oline this year and I think we're all in agreement there. I expect the staff to do their job and put the players we have in a position to succeed. Do you honestly think they're going to leave Chuks, Anderson, Wallace or PTBNL on an island every play if they're getting killed? Adjustments will be made.

 

[SMU_Sox]

If you think I am predetermining anything you are misreading what I wrote. I am saying it could be awful and it might not be. I am saying there is a spectrum. I am calling out one end of the spectrum which I feel like you are not respecting enough. You can choose to focus on the positive but that doesn't mean you should ignore the downside risk.

I really do not care how good a run blocker an OG is if he gives up as many QB pressures as Sow did last year. OL who struggle in pass pro don't last long in the NFL. Now I think Sow can get better there... but there is also the possibility he continues to be a liability in pass pro and gets benched. Again there is a spectrum here. Please don't ignore the downside risk. When you look at his weighted pass blocking rate it's 43/56 of the guards with 50% of snaps played. He could improve and be an average pass protector and a very good run blocker and that is a quality starter right there. I am not going to call anyone who is a below average pass protector solid because to me, and I think to the NFL, they are not solid. I am not going to pencil or pen him in for being solid because development can be a crap shoot. I believe he can become a very good guard with his skillset and athletic ability. He had issues with twists, stunts, etc in college and in the NFL and I didn't see the kind of improvement last year with that I had hoped for. However, with a new coaching staff maybe that happens. 40% or so of pass rush snaps league average are via games (twists and stunts) so it's a big part of pass pro.

The Onwenu comment is sarcasm, right? Typically average starting caliber left tackles in free agency get paid a decent amount of cash. That the league didn't pay any of these guys that kind of $ points to that they are not highly regarded OTs. Their performance has not indicated they are good OTs.

A modern WCO can help in pass pro because boot actions are independent of the line. So yeah, I think scheme wise we have some protection. You can also mix in quick game and RPOs to help. But if you are down in the game and have to use a drop back passing strategy you can't really hide multiple leaky buckets. If you slide to the left or reduce the LT/LG splits something is going to suffer. I am not a scheme lord by any means but I know a bunch of the protection tricks and when you more or less have to rely on winning 1:1s - and at some points it will be the latter. Long winded way of saying that they might be able to help the entire line with scheme but not always and not as much as we would like. I am more than willing to talk about this too but they already reduce the split for Onwenu when he is RT. You can't double reduce splits... so either you think Onwenu can handle being given a worse split (with his foot speed that is not a great idea) or... well we're back to LT being an island. What are you suggesting they do? Yeah they will give chip help and an RB. I suppose you could have the RB take a much more active role covering the B gaps but you are also hamstringing your checkdown abilities in some ways with that option. That an an RB vs an edge is a tough battle.

Edit: I have a hard time believing that LT won't be a shit show this year with the guys on the roster. Also, Wallace might have started out in the off-season as an LT rotational guy but by June they basically stopped using him there. I don't think he is going to be in the LT rotation in camp but we will see.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Where did Sow rank among guards last year? Top half. How about run blocking? Led all rookie linemen. Gap scheme blocking? 3rd overall. Yeah he needs to improve in pass pro but not calling him solid is a bit of nitpick is it not? PFF named him to their all-rookie team and expects him to breakout this year. I didn't think I was being too optimistic there.

I guess I have more faith in a NFL coaching staff and front office to have players on the team they expect to play well? You are correct that I'm choosing not to focus on the negatives. Its depressing. Its not that I don't see the negative. Its not an ideal situation. Non-turnstile performance is extremely faint praise.

Average to best (insert position here) come from round 1. Thats not news or a new data point. The better players get drafted earlier. We've debated Wallace to death. Then we switch to paychecks. Yes, guys who get paid more are usually better players too. Onwenu is getting paid like a starting LT should we just swing him over? You're choosing to focus on the negative and pre-determine outcomes based off your opinion, your perception of the data and low expectations. I'm choosing the opposite. There are so many more factors at play than some of these guys performances last year. Situation, health, attitude, preparedness, scheme, QB play, I could literally go on and on. Almost everything has changed and I believe it to be for the better.

LT is 100% going to make or break this oline this year and I think we're all in agreement there. I expect the staff to do their job and put the players we have in a position to succeed. Do you honestly think they're going to leave Chuks, Anderson, Wallace or PTBNL on an island every play if they're getting killed? Adjustments will be made.

Not putting words in SMU's mouth here, but we're in the Drake Maye thread. So while it is nice that Sow rated well for run blocking, it is absolutely material that he was god awful in pass pro. That's not a question of focusing on the negative or the positive. It's a conversation around whether the line will be able to protect enough to have a productive passing game and to protect a very green QB. Sow is not a great leg to stand on here.

Of course LT is the most critical piece on the line for QB livelihood, but we could have the love child of Zeus and Wonder Woman at LT and still be bad at pass pro if there are other significant weak spots. That matters. And the fact that we have a bunch of jags instead of one at LT is not exactly an endorsement. Yes, maybe one will work out. It's possible. I think that everyone concedes that. But it's also very possible that the line is just as bad or worse this year. I'm not sure how this is debatable.

edit: per usual, SMU said it better himself

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

If you think I am predetermining anything you are misreading what I wrote.

I have a hard time believing that LT won't be a shit show this year with the guys on the roster.

Ok.

I'll say it again. Last years passing grades on our oline are over inflated negatively due to the lack of QB talent. The coaching wasn't there either. I believe they are better. Beyond having a RB help in pass pro, I'm hoping they deploy a FB. Beyond that we have TEs that can block now. Theres quite a bit of help to be moved around that was non-existent last year. It's really easy to look at last year and pile on the everyone sucks train. I'm choosing not to.

For the hell of it. Andrews looked awful last year and with his health concerns he could completely drop off a cliff. Sow could be a turnstile at either guard spot. Mix that with Andrews and who knows at the other guard spot, and that could be opening the middle of the line for unblocked dlinemen all day. Chuks could be Trent Brown Jr and decide he just doesn't want to, which leaves the malaria ridden body of Anderson and a over valued swing tackle as our only options on the left side. Onwenu might completely flame out at tackle after finally settling there because he constantly needed help due to his lack of agility. Our backups are all jags that no one else wanted. I mean why even play the games? Lets just hope Jacoby can get the ball out in under a second or just hand the ball off right to an opposing defender.

Yeah. That was easy.

Apologies for polluting the Maye thread.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Ok.

I'll say it again. Last years passing grades on our oline are over inflated negatively due to the lack of QB talent. The coaching wasn't there either. I believe they are better. Beyond having a RB help in pass pro, I'm hoping they deploy a FB. Beyond that we have TEs that can block now. Theres quite a bit of help to be moved around that was non-existent last year. It's really easy to look at last year and pile on the everyone sucks train. I'm choosing not to.

For the hell of it. Andrews looked awful last year and with his health concerns he could completely drop off a cliff. Sow could be a turnstile at either guard spot. Mix that with Andrews and who knows at the other guard spot, and that could be opening the middle of the line for unblocked dlinemen all day. Chuks could be Trent Brown Jr and decide he just doesn't want to, which leaves the malaria ridden body of Anderson and a over valued swing tackle as our only options on the left side. Onwenu might completely flame out at tackle after finally settling there because he constantly needed help due to his lack of agility. Our backups are all jags that no one else wanted. I mean why even play the games? Lets just hope Jacoby can get the ball out in under a second or just hand the ball off right to an opposing defender.

Yeah. That was easy.

Apologies for polluting the Maye thread.

I do not think that is the point of this conversation.

Agreed that the coaching and improved QB play should be a plus.
Agreed that there is a chance that the draftees or guys who were injured last year can play.

But it is also absolutely possible that even absent bad injury luck, this line is still pretty fucking bad. We'll see soon enough. If you're right, and the line is awesome, I hope that you spike the football all over BBtL. We'd all be happy to see a functional offense this year.

 

[Auger34]

I do not think that is the point of this conversation.

Agreed that the coaching and improved QB play should be a plus.
Agreed that there is a chance that the draftees or guys who were injured last year can play.

But it is also absolutely possible that even absent bad injury luck, this line is still pretty fucking bad. We'll see soon enough. If you're right, and the line is awesome, I hope that you spike the football all over BBtL. We'd all be happy to see a functional offense this year.

I think we all agree with this.

However, with the information we have and what it looks like right now, it seems like the Patriots are one of the least talented teams in the NFL. On offense, I think the only team that you could legitimately argue is less talented than them is the Carolina Panthers.

If Maye absolutely blows Jacoby out of the water in camp and through the preseason, then they will have to bite the bullet and start Drake. If it's close, which I think is what the majority of people expect, then I think they should give Jacoby the starts until it's clear that Drake needs to go in.

Basically, until Drake makes it so its undeniable, I would trot Jacoby out there

 

[SMU_Sox]

The whole point of playing the games is to see where in the spectrum of outcomes you land on. All I am doing is pointing out that it could be really hairy on offense and on the line. If your response to that is hyperbolic sarcasm I don’t see how that helps any discussion. If that’s how you want to proceed that’s your right of course but I am not going to engage. Balls in your court.

 

[johnmd20]

I think we all agree with this.

However, with the information we have and what it looks like right now, it seems like the Patriots are one of the least talented teams in the NFL. On offense, I think the only team that you could legitimately argue is less talented than them is the Carolina Panthers.

If Maye absolutely blows Jacoby out of the water in camp and through the preseason, then they will have to bite the bullet and start Drake. If it's close, which I think is what the majority of people expect, then I think they should give Jacoby the starts until it's clear that Drake needs to go in.

Basically, until Drake makes it so its undeniable, I would trot Jacoby out there

Patriots are currently 32nd in the NFL in expected wins. It is definitely a bad team right now. I wonder when was the last time the Patriots were expected to win the fewest games in the NFL? Obviously decades. It's tough.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Patriots are currently 32nd in the NFL in expected wins. It is definitely a bad team right now. I wonder when was the last time the Patriots were expected to win the fewest games in the NFL? Obviously decades. It's tough.

1992, preseason O/U had them at 2 wins, even with Seattle.
They then won 2 games.

 

[slamminsammya]

1992, preseason O/U had them at 2 wins, even with Seattle.
They then won 2 games.

That is crazy. I had no idea they were that bad.

 

[dynomite]

Patriots are currently 32nd in the NFL in expected wins. It is definitely a bad team right now. I wonder when was the last time the Patriots were expected to win the fewest games in the NFL? Obviously decades. It's tough.

First thing that came to mind was the infamous Dr. Z (RIP) power ranking after Week 3 in 2001 that had the Pats ranked 32nd. Archived here: https://web.archive.org/web/20030622045232/http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2001/09/18/power_rankings/

New England Patriots (0-2)
This is sad. Drew Bledsoe took a big hit and is out indefinitely. Honestly, I don't know what weapons they have with which to win a game.

Prior to 2001 according to football-reference (cool that they have this, pulls from "sportsoddshistory.com" apparently) Vegas had the '01 Pats at +6000 to win the Super Bowl and their Wins o/u at 6.5 (27th in the NFL).

FRef seems to disagree about preseason odds for other seasons, though. Same page says that prior to '92 Pats Win o/u was 5.0 (ahead of Colts & Cardinals), but prior to '91 they had the lowest predicted Win total at 4.0.

So to answer @johnmd20, per FRef looks like this is the first time since 1991, AKA three decades, AKA since the HW Bush presidency.

Edit: Just poked around a little more on there -- '99 Rams apparently were +15000 preseason to win the Super Bowl.

 

[johnmd20]

First thing that came to mind was the infamous Dr. Z (RIP) power ranking after Week 3 in 2001 that had the Pats ranked 32nd. Archived here: https://web.archive.org/web/20030622045232/http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2001/09/18/power_rankings/



Prior to 2001 according to football-reference (cool that they have this, pulls from "sportsoddshistory.com" apparently) Vegas had the '01 Pats at +6000 to win the Super Bowl and their Wins o/u at 6.5 (27th in the NFL).

FRef seems to disagree about preseason odds for other seasons, though. Same page says that prior to '92 Pats Win o/u was 5.0 (ahead of Colts & Cardinals), but prior to '91 they had the lowest predicted Win total at 4.0.

So to answer @johnmd20, per FRef looks like this is the first time since 1991, AKA three decades, AKA since the HW Bush presidency.

We can only go up from here!!!!!