Race and the Red Sox

Rough Carrigan

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I go to a similar number of games and sit maybe half a dozen rows behind you. The only racial slur I've heard in the past 20 years was uttered by a Yankee fan, who was promptly ejected from the stadium (Unfortunately, the black man to whom the slur was directed was ejected as well.)

There's no question that behavior is better than it used to be, but there's still a much greater tolerance for boorish behavior than there is in a lot of other cities. I've seen behavior tolerated at Fenway recently that I couldn't imagine being tolerated in San Francisco or Washington -- nothing as bad as racial slurs, but stuff that would make some people uncomfortable bringing their kids to a game. I don't blame ownership; it's the fan culture here, and I think they're doing all they can to change it gradually over time.

As I said above, I suspect this is why we hear stories like these about awful things that Red Sox fans more often than we hear similar stories about fans of most other teams. (In the case of slurs directed at players, it also matters that a larger number of fans sit within earshot of the field at Fenway than pretty much anyplace else besides Wrigley.)
We may disagree about exactly where the line is beyond which behavior is unacceptable. And I'm sure that this line was crossed more often by the Sox crowds from 1998-2004. I also liked those crowds more. Much, much more.

Positive passion at a sporting event is not nothing. Those crowds from '98 to '04, before the goddam "smart" phone era had much greater passion. Almost every game was a much greater experience than the games now and not just because that was the buildup to their breaking through. I go to games now and the Sox might be two runs or fewer ahead or behind in the 7th inning and I can look down a row of 24 grandstand seats and see 20 people hunched over their fucking phones.

I don't know exactly how you make a realistic sum of the good and the bad as it was. But the good was much much greater before.
 

SydneySox

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With success comes popularity; don't blame the phones as much as the greater, less Sox focused crowd attending the games. Then remember the days in the 90's that you could walk up and get good seats for nothing, and then consider why they were available.

Sox are a strong brand but with it... or because of it... there's a more passive voice at the ground.
 

cornwalls@6

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I go to a similar number of games and sit maybe half a dozen rows behind you. The only racial slur I've heard in the past 20 years was uttered by a Yankee fan, who was promptly ejected from the stadium (Unfortunately, the black man to whom the slur was directed was ejected as well.)

There's no question that behavior is better than it used to be, but there's still a much greater tolerance for boorish behavior than there is in a lot of other cities. I've seen behavior tolerated at Fenway recently that I couldn't imagine being tolerated in San Francisco or Washington -- nothing as bad as racial slurs, but stuff that would make some people uncomfortable bringing their kids to a game. I don't blame ownership; it's the fan culture here, and I think they're doing all they can to change it gradually over time.

As I said above, I suspect this is why we hear stories like these about awful things that Red Sox fans more often than we hear similar stories about fans of most other teams. (In the case of slurs directed at players, it also matters that a larger number of fans sit within earshot of the field at Fenway than pretty much anyplace else besides Wrigley.)
Have to say, I've been going to 15 or so games a year, sitting pretty close to you(right field bleachers, about 15 rows up from the bullpen), since 2003, and my experience has been very different. I could count the incidents of really bad fan behavior in that time on one hand. And don't recall anything racial in nature. Most were drunken near fights during Yankee games, and the idiots were pretty promptly removed from the park in those cases. Obviously there's a huge element of randomness in terms of whether you're going to be in the park when something happens, and I have no reason to doubt your experiences, or Price's claims. But as someone who also went to many games in the 70's and 80's, when it was so bad my father stopped going out of embarrassment over having to witness that behavior with his kids, I think there's been a sea change for the better under the current ownership group.
 

Sir Lancelotti

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We may disagree about exactly where the line is beyond which behavior is unacceptable. And I'm sure that this line was crossed more often by the Sox crowds from 1998-2004. I also liked those crowds more. Much, much more.

Positive passion at a sporting event is not nothing. Those crowds from '98 to '04, before the goddam "smart" phone era had much greater passion. Almost every game was a much greater experience than the games now and not just because that was the buildup to their breaking through. I go to games now and the Sox might be two runs or fewer ahead or behind in the 7th inning and I can look down a row of 24 grandstand seats and see 20 people hunched over their fucking phones.

I don't know exactly how you make a realistic sum of the good and the bad as it was. But the good was much much greater before.
I agree to a certain extent, a big part of me misses bleacher bums filled with witty leatherlung hecklers and die hards that knew how to create genuine atmosphere. You didn't see fans starting the wave in the 3rd inning during a 6-0 game and belting out Sweet Caroline while the team was pissing away the division (hello September 2011). If that's the price of success you gotta take the trade off. That said game 7 of the 2007 ALCS was the best Fenway crowd I've ever been a part of, just a controlled riot of passionate fans. Pedroia's home run was everything my Dad described the Garden sounding like when Bird stole the ball.

I know this is a Fenway thread, but going to a Sox game is a walk through a dewey meadow compared to attending any NFL game. It's probably the tailgating culture but Something about football games turns everyday normal responsible adults into absolute animals. I'm far from a prude and can hang with pretty much any crowd, but Bills Mafia set civilization back about 200 years that weekend.
 

Rough Carrigan

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I agree to a certain extent, a big part of me misses bleacher bums filled with witty leatherlung hecklers and die hards that knew how to create genuine atmosphere. You didn't see fans starting the wave in the 3rd inning during a 6-0 game and belting out Sweet Caroline while the team was pissing away the division (hello September 2011). If that's the price of success you gotta take the trade off. That said game 7 of the 2007 ALCS was the best Fenway crowd I've ever been a part of, just a controlled riot of passionate fans. Pedroia's home run was everything my Dad described the Garden sounding like when Bird stole the ball.

I know this is a Fenway thread, but going to a Sox game is a walk through a dewey meadow compared to attending any NFL game. It's probably the tailgating culture but Something about football games turns everyday normal responsible adults into absolute animals. I'm far from a prude and can hang with pretty much any crowd, but Bills Mafia set civilization back about 200 years that weekend.
I was at that same game. I saw Mike Lowell on MLB network say that the explosion of sound after the Sox turned a double play (that he started) to kill an Indians rally in the 7th(?) was the single loudest sound he ever heard in an MLB ballpark.
 

BroodsSexton

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This game story has Marty Barrett staying behind to "guard the gloves" and Seaver wanting Clemens to get out of the stands before he gets hurt.
Yankee fans will be Yankee fans (also from that story):

It was a rare occurrence at a baseball game; the first in recent memory at Yankee Stadium. But there have now been two incidents involving fans in the last three playing dates at the Stadium. The other occurred at the conclusion of the second game of a doubleheader Aug. 26, when someone threw a knife onto the field that grazed the arm of Wally Joyner, the California Angels' first baseman.
 

RoDaddy

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The book Shut Out relates a story from Ellis Burks about his going on the radio and trying to encourage "WILD listeners" to come out to Fenway, because that station had a large number of listeners of color. They even tried giving away tickets, but most of that demographic wanted no part of Fenway in those days.
Yeah, and it's not hard to understand why. In addition to the shameful Yawkey racist years and last team to integrate, the Ellis Burks era included a time in the late eighties (!!!) when Ellis was the only black on the team - no way to make up for a racist history. And in between, crap like Mickey Rivers having to wear a helmet out to center field and third base coach Chris Chambliss being impailed by a dart at Fenway in addition to the above mentioned racist Fenway incidents. Even though I wasn't a fan of Dan Duquette, I did admire that the racial atmosphere seemingly changed for the better under him because he simply brought in a lot of black ballplayers (O'Leary, Tinsley, Jefferson, Whitten, etc)
 

lexrageorge

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Yeah, and it's not hard to understand why. In addition to the shameful Yawkey racist years and last team to integrate, the Ellis Burks era included a time in the late eighties (!!!) when Ellis was the only black on the team - no way to make up for a racist history. And in between, crap like Mickey Rivers having to wear a helmet out to center field and third base coach Chris Chambliss being impailed by a dart at Fenway in addition to the above mentioned racist Fenway incidents. Even though I wasn't a fan of Dan Duquette, I did admire that the racial atmosphere seemingly changed for the better under him because he simply brought in a lot of black ballplayers (O'Leary, Tinsley, Jefferson, Whitten, etc)
Need to clarify the MIckey Rivers incident a bit. On May 20, 1976, there was a brawl between the Red Sox and the Yankees in Yankee Stadium after a collision between Lou Piniella and Carlton Fisk. During that brawl, Graig Nettles and Mickey Rivers ganged up on starting pitcher Bill Lee, with Nettles throwing him down to the ground causing Lee to dislocate his left (pitching) shoulder. Nettles and Lee would be ejected, but Rivers got off unscathed. Lee, who won 17 games each of the 3 prior seasons with the Sox, would be sidelined until after the All Star break and was never the same.

http://www.overthemonster.com/2016/5/20/11718616/red-sox-baseball-brawl-yankees-bill-lee

By the time the Yankees came back to Fenway on May 31, the Sox season was essentially in free fall; they were 2 games under 0.500 and 6 games back of the division leading Yankees. Mickey Rivers, by virtue of being in the outfield, was public enemy #1 to the bleacher fans, and he was bombarded with projectiles throughout the entire 3 game series.

While I cannot defend the actions of the fans in the bleachers, I do recall quite clearly that the Rivers incident had little to do with his race.

Finally, to pick a nit: I'm not sure the characterization of the Ellis Burks era is strictly correct. It was correct after the Sox traded Lee Smith for Tom Brunansky in the 1990 season. But the larger point stands.
 

8slim

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Jesus, I couldn't believe this at first glance, but sure enough...

This was the era that followed the infamous Elks Club debacle, where the Winter Haven chapter didn't permit black guests, yet was allowed to invite white Sox players and coaches by ownership.

Dan Duquette really is a hero in terms of racial progressivism and the Sox.
 

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Dan Duquette really is a hero in terms of racial progressivism and the Sox.
For this reason alone, Duquette should get a statue outside of Fenway. And it should be positioned so that it's staring at the Yawkey Way street sign and giving the finger.
 

8slim

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For this reason alone, Duquette should get a statue outside of Fenway. And it should be positioned so that it's staring at the Yawkey Way street sign and giving the finger.
For sure. There is a lot of lazy analysis and hot takery about Boston, the Sox and race. But that doesn't invalidate all of the very uncomfortable truths.

FWIW, in the 70s Reggie Smith lived near my grandparents in Sharon when he played for the Sox. He was not warmly received in the community from what they told me. I'm glad things are a million times better these days. But it's mind blowing to me that a situation like the Winter Haven Elks Club could have occurred when I was a teenager.
 

HriniakPosterChild

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Jesus, I couldn't believe this at first glance, but sure enough...

And Rice had strongly encouraged Burks to get his six years in and get the hell out of town, and Dave Henderson wore a T-shirt that said "Boston Sucks" under his uniform top. And Joe Morgan had called Burks into his office to warn him about how he shouldn't be dating white women.

It was an ugly situation.
 

glasspusher

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Wow- thanks to everyone for their insight here. I have always lived in or near American League cities, and in New York (70s and 80s), Cleveland ( late 90s) Tampa (early 2000s) and Oakland(2002 to present), I honestly can't recall a racial slur coming from the stands around me- doubly so because I don't put up with that shit, and since the early 2000s I was taking my son to the games, and I'd be damned if I let such shit go without reaming someone out. I need to write Rice and Burks c/o the sox with my apologies and solidarity for the shit with which they had to deal.
 

moretsyndrome

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Need to clarify the MIckey Rivers incident a bit. On May 20, 1976, there was a brawl between the Red Sox and the Yankees in Yankee Stadium after a collision between Lou Piniella and Carlton Fisk. During that brawl, Graig Nettles and Mickey Rivers ganged up on starting pitcher Bill Lee, with Nettles throwing him down to the ground causing Lee to dislocate his left (pitching) shoulder. Nettles and Lee would be ejected, but Rivers got off unscathed. Lee, who won 17 games each of the 3 prior seasons with the Sox, would be sidelined until after the All Star break and was never the same.

http://www.overthemonster.com/2016/5/20/11718616/red-sox-baseball-brawl-yankees-bill-lee

By the time the Yankees came back to Fenway on May 31, the Sox season was essentially in free fall; they were 2 games under 0.500 and 6 games back of the division leading Yankees. Mickey Rivers, by virtue of being in the outfield, was public enemy #1 to the bleacher fans, and he was bombarded with projectiles throughout the entire 3 game series.

While I cannot defend the actions of the fans in the bleachers, I do recall quite clearly that the Rivers incident had little to do with his race.

Finally, to pick a nit: I'm not sure the characterization of the Ellis Burks era is strictly correct. It was correct after the Sox traded Lee Smith for Tom Brunansky in the 1990 season. But the larger point stands.
I was in the CF bleachers for one of the games in the NYY series that followed the Lee fight. I think 6/2. The fight was definitely the event that triggered the Rivers incident (exacerbated by the team's performance), but the content of what dozens of those guys were shouting at him all night long was incredibly racist. It was the worst I'd ever heard in my life.

Edit - a couple of the projectiles were bananas. It wasn't a great moment for the faithful.
 
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pokey_reese

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I think that there is a lot that goes into a reputation like this, and while some parts of it may be overblown, or were true in the 80s but are less so now, the reality is that we all view Boston through a positive lens, and the truth of the matter would probably make us uncomfortable even today. I think that while this conversation has largely centered around what goes on inside the stadium, a significant part of how a place like Boston gets a rep like this is more about the city as a whole, and not just what players (or fans) observe during the game.

Like most places, Boston has a unique relationship with race, but one that has always been highlighted as at least hypocritical, if not downright intolerant at times, going back to before the Civil War. Whether or not we personally have witnessed or experienced it (and I'm guessing that most people on this board are white people), it's very unlikely that there is anything unfair or illegitimate about the reputation that the city has earned over the years, whether it was from red lining, busing riots, or obnoxious sports fans.

While the reasons are complex and longstanding, they still exist, and can most clearly be seen in the fact that Boston is to this day a city with a lower African American population than perhaps its size and attitude would suggest. Now, perhaps it could be argued that the black community the city does have is better off than those in highly segregated cities like Chicago or St. Louis, but the reality is that if the city is no longer actively discouraging black people from moving in (like it did in the past), it at least seems 'content' with the racial make up it has currently.

Of course, it isn't all necessarily racist conspiracy, as it is as least partially geographic (most big cities with above-average proportions of African Americans are in the south, or around Detroit), and the Boston metro area is above average in terms of a number of Hispanic immigrant groups like Brazilians and Dominicans, so it isn't as simple as 'Boston hates brown people.' I live in Oregon right now, and it is distressingly white in a way that makes Boston look like a multi-cultural haven, so I know what a truly 'white' place looks like. Thankfully, Boston seems to have a racial make-up that is pretty close to representative of national proportions, but that doesn't mean that minorities there have a good experience relative to other cities, especially black people.

My grandfather (technically step grandfather, but the only one I knew), married a white woman in Boston in the late 70s and used to tell some really horrible stories about just walking down the street with her in the 70s and 80s. My sister today tells me that she and her boyfriend (who is black) see a lot of looks and hear some muttering when they go out, and avoid certain bars/neighborhoods because of it. This kind of thing, multiplied times thousands of people, gets talked about, and I'm sure that professional athletes hear about it. We can tell ourselves that it happens everywhere, and that Boston isn't 'worse' than other places, but chances are where there is smoke there is fire, and if the city has a special reputation in this regard, it is based in something real.
 

8slim

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...the fact that Boston is to this day a city with a lower African American population than perhaps its size and attitude would suggest.
Looked this up because I was curious. Just the first 10 cities I thought of randomly....

% of non-Hispanic Whites

Boston: 44.6%
Manhattan: 47.6%
Chicago: 31.7%
Philadelphia: 36.9%
Seattle: 66.3%
Minneapolis: 60.3%
Dallas: 28.8%
Los Angeles: 28.7%
San Francisco: 41.9%
Atlanta: 38.3%

Totally get that you said "lower African-American population" and I looked at non-Hispanic White, but wanted to see the proportion.
 

pokey_reese

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Looked this up because I was curious. Just the first 10 cities I thought of randomly....

% of non-Hispanic Whites

Boston: 44.6%
Manhattan: 47.6%
Chicago: 31.7%
Philadelphia: 36.9%
Seattle: 66.3%
Minneapolis: 60.3%
Dallas: 28.8%
Los Angeles: 28.7%
San Francisco: 41.9%
Atlanta: 38.3%

Totally get that you said "lower African-American population" and I looked at non-Hispanic White, but wanted to see the proportion.
Yeah, I had to double check a few things I said before posting (I wrote it quickly at work yesterday, and wanted to make sure I wasn't totally full of shit on the factual stuff), and found some interesting info.

This was really neat: https://priceonomics.com/how-diverse-is-your-city/
 

Spelunker

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Yeah, I had to double check a few things I said before posting (I wrote it quickly at work yesterday, and wanted to make sure I wasn't totally full of shit on the factual stuff), and found some interesting info.

This was really neat: https://priceonomics.com/how-diverse-is-your-city/
A ranking system like that is interesting, and actually seems to indicate the black/white population is pretty balanced in Boston: it's 18th in 'most white' and 21st in 'most black'. Decidedly middle of the pack.

With the 23rd 'most Hispanic' (and the comparative outlier of 11th 'most Asian') Boston is basically right in the middle of all of these, seemingly about as racially balanced (by this very limited measure) as it gets.
 

biff_hardbody

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A ranking system like that is interesting, and actually seems to indicate the black/white population is pretty balanced in Boston: it's 18th in 'most white' and 21st in 'most black'. Decidedly middle of the pack.

With the 23rd 'most Hispanic' (and the comparative outlier of 11th 'most Asian') Boston is basically right in the middle of all of these, seemingly about as racially balanced (by this very limited measure) as it gets.
I think this misinterprets the data. Statistically average is not "about as racially balanced as it gets." It is average. Setting aside whatever ideal racial balance you seek to achieve, I think this attitude exemplifies nicely with what pokey_reese said that the city of Boston (and its citizens) are content with the current racial makeup. Saying "it's fine look how racially tolerant we are," while we know, at least from one anecdote, of the uncomfortable truth of what an interracial couple actually experiences is an example of where Boston gets its reputation.
 

charlieoscar

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Wasn't there a big to-do back in the Celtics' heyday with Russell, Sam, KC, et al, when one of the black stars moved into an all-white neighborhood? And that neighborhood essentially shifted color after that?
 

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Wasn't there a big to-do back in the Celtics' heyday with Russell, Sam, KC, et al, when one of the black stars moved into an all-white neighborhood? And that neighborhood essentially shifted color after that?
I might not be remembering this exactly, but Russell moved to Reading where he found he was not wanted. At all. From what I read he came home one night and people from town ransacked his house and took a shit on his bed. He got the message after that.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons why he didn't come back to Boston for a long time.
 

trs

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Wasn't there a big to-do back in the Celtics' heyday with Russell, Sam, KC, et al, when one of the black stars moved into an all-white neighborhood? And that neighborhood essentially shifted color after that?
I think this is more to the point. The percentages as diversity argument misses informal segregation. Mobile, AL was pretty "diverse" in the 50s as well, but obviously that didn't equate to any type of ethnic/racial harmony. A quick search brought up this site: http://www.bostonindicators.org/indicators/boston-neighborhoods. I have to admit that I haven't looked through it that carefully, but it does appear that while Boston might be getting more "diverse," that certainly doesn't mean that the diversity is leading to much exposure.
 

pokey_reese

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I think this is more to the point. The percentages as diversity argument misses informal segregation. Mobile, AL was pretty "diverse" in the 50s as well, but obviously that didn't equate to any type of ethnic/racial harmony. A quick search brought up this site: http://www.bostonindicators.org/indicators/boston-neighborhoods. I have to admit that I haven't looked through it that carefully, but it does appear that while Boston might be getting more "diverse," that certainly doesn't mean that the diversity is leading to much exposure.
Right, these city demographics ignore divisions and segregation within the city by neighborhood. That was what was so shocking as a Boston guy moving to STL and then Chicago. In those places, while they had significantly higher percentages of black residents, I probably saw them less frequently than I did in Boston. Each of those places are essentially divided into two different cities, one black, and one white, and people rarely visit the other side.

I remember my dad telling me that Boston avoided that in part, somewhat ironically back in the day, because no one neighborhood wanted to take a bunch of big consolidated housing projects (largely due to racist fears of a bunch of black people moving in), so they had to distribute them throughout various parts of the city (though just being an old crowded city with little available space also led to this). So you had these oasis/island type housing developments, like Bromely Heath near where I grew up, but nothing like the huge places like Cabrini-Green in Chicago. So people ended up a little more mixed than they would in other younger cities where it was easy to just carve out big new spaces for growing black communities to be isolated in.
 

Spelunker

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Right, these city demographics ignore divisions and segregation within the city by neighborhood. That was what was so shocking as a Boston guy moving to STL and then Chicago. In those places, while they had significantly higher percentages of black residents, I probably saw them less frequently than I did in Boston. Each of those places are essentially divided into two different cities, one black, and one white, and people rarely visit the other side.

I remember my dad telling me that Boston avoided that in part, somewhat ironically back in the day, because no one neighborhood wanted to take a bunch of big consolidated housing projects (largely due to racist fears of a bunch of black people moving in), so they had to distribute them throughout various parts of the city (though just being an old crowded city with little available space also led to this). So you had these oasis/island type housing developments, like Bromely Heath near where I grew up, but nothing like the huge places like Cabrini-Green in Chicago. So people ended up a little more mixed than they would in other younger cities where it was easy to just carve out big new spaces for growing black communities to be isolated in.
Exactly: that's why I tongue-in-cheekly referred to the other link as 'limited'. It's a good starting point, but doesn't tell you much about how cities are racially gerrymandered.

Wired had a good map/article about this a few years back, about the distribution of race within cities.

https://www.wired.com/2013/08/how-segregated-is-your-city-this-eye-opening-map-shows-you/

(and the original map: http://demographics.coopercenter.org/racial-dot-map/ )

8-mile is a pretty striking demarcation point in Detroit:



Boston (don't have a handy image) looks a little weird (lots of Asians in the West End?) but actually more integrated than its reputation would you to believe. Unless your perception of the city is Back Bay and Southie. Yes, Southwest Boston is basically where it's most majority-minority, but there's a good mix there.
 
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Al Zarilla

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I might not be remembering this exactly, but Russell moved to Reading where he found he was not wanted. At all. From what I read he came home one night and people from town ransacked his house and took a shit on his bed. He got the message after that.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons why he didn't come back to Boston for a long time.
Couldn't have been a sports fan, or at least a Boston fan. Russell, not single handedly, but he was the biggest cog, pulled Boston out of some real sports dark ages. Celtics had never won a title, Red Sox since 1918, Bruins since 1941, and the Patriots didn't exist yet. Russell should have streets named for him in Boston.
 

Al Zarilla

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I think you're being a little naive in thinking that a Venn diagram of Boston sports fans and racists doesn't have an overlap, especially back in the '50s and '60s.
Sure, my father in law...nice guy otherwise but he was happy when George Scott and Reggie Smith were traded, didn't care what they got back. What the guy did in Reading was pure garbage though.
 

Al Zarilla

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It was more than one person, Al. It was a bunch.
Sure. Another thing was that the great Russell teams didn't sell out the garden much, whereas the pre-Orr, Esposito, etc. no cup Bruins did. I don't remember, but was it that the Celtics didn't sell out consistently until the Bird era? How much of that was racial, hard to tell, two different sports, and Boston was called a hockey town by some. Nobody ever called it a basketball town.
 

millionthcustomer

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So, with the usual "take this for what it's worth" caveat:

My son has been taking hitting lessons with Larry Bigbie for years. He's one of the most genuine and nicest guys you'll meet. With this thread in mind, last Thursday I asked Larry what he thought about playing at Fenway vs other stadiums. He said that the fans at Fenway will definitely let you hear it - especially out in LF. He said that fans would throw coins and stuff and violate his poor mother verbally six ways from Sunday.

He quickly added that he heard that type of abuse at every stadium he played in. And, for whatever reason, White Sox fans were the most brutal to him as an opposing player. He also said that outfielders get it far worse than other positions, because of their proximity to the fans.

What does this have to do with race at Fenway? Nothing, really. But it's just some anecdotal talk from a visiting player. Our kind of abuse isn't really unique to Fenway or Boston fans.
 

shaggydog2000

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Sure. Another thing was that the great Russell teams didn't sell out the garden much, whereas the pre-Orr, Esposito, etc. no cup Bruins did. I don't remember, but was it that the Celtics didn't sell out consistently until the Bird era? How much of that was racial, hard to tell, two different sports, and Boston was called a hockey town by some. Nobody ever called it a basketball town.
The NBA just wasn't that popular until the 80's. If you look at the numbers here, nobody was selling 14k tickets a game in the 50's or 60's:

http://www.apbr.org/attendance.html
 

Al Zarilla

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The NBA just wasn't that popular until the 80's. If you look at the numbers here, nobody was selling 14k tickets a game in the 50's or 60's:

http://www.apbr.org/attendance.html
SD, thanks for the historical attendance spreadsheet. The NBA didn't sell out like you say until long after the 50s and 60s. One note, the Knicks at home outdrew the Celtics at home during the great Russell run. New York was a better basketball town then. Getting way off topic here but Bruins historical attendance figures, and they did outdraw the Celtics during the Russell years.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=4919
 

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What does this have to do with race at Fenway? Nothing, really. But it's just some anecdotal talk from a visiting player. Our kind of abuse isn't really unique to Fenway or Boston fans.
Similar to this, I've mentioned in the past that we had dinner with Willie Horton (the Tiger, not the other one) at a Negro League Museum gala, and he told us that Boston was his least favorite place to play on the road due to the fans. He's a pretty irascible guy, to be sure.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
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Sep 20, 2005
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Similar to this, I've mentioned in the past that we had dinner with Willie Horton (the Tiger, not the other one) at a Negro League Museum gala, and he told us that Boston was his least favorite place to play on the road due to the fans. He's a pretty irascible guy, to be sure.

I'm sure his stance is justified, but Willie Horton played from 1963-1980. An unfortunate reflection for sure, but a reflection of another time. My own experience is that I take my 8 and 11 year old kids to a couple of games a year, sitting in either the bleachers or grandstand, and I can't recall hearing anything, racial or otherwise, that made me wish my kids weren't there. Pre-2000, yes, but I think things have gotten much better.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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Nov 24, 2015
1,204
Honest question, is it really that much worse at Fenway than other ballparks though? I mean, I'm sure that there are some parks where the fans are total friendliness but I have a hard time believing that ballparks in New York, Chicago etc are much better, but its always Boston that gets singled out. I mean, there's these guys...


I haven't been to Fenway since probably 2010, but have been to a lot of other parks since. There are shitheads everywhere.

Baltimore is way worse. Wrigley is about the same, Guaranteed Rate Field or whatever the hell the White Sox are calling their stadium is better, because nobody seems to care about anything there.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
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Dec 4, 2009
46,274
Cant believe I have to bump this….
BOSTON -- Baltimore Orioles All-Star center fielder Adam Jones was berated by racist taunts at Fenway Park while a bag of peanuts was thrown at him Monday night, calling it one of the worst cases of fan abuse he has heard in his career.

“A disrespectful fan threw a bag of peanuts at me,’’ Jones said, “I was called the N-word a handful of times tonight. Thanks. Pretty awesome.’’

Jones, one of just 62 African-Americans on opening-day rosters this year, said he has been subjected to racist hecklings in the past at Fenway Park, but said this was one of the worst experiences of his 12-year career.
“It’s different,’’ he said. “Very unfortunate. I heard there was 59 or 60 ejections tonight in the ballpark. It is what it is, right. I just go out and play baseball. It’s unfortunate that people need report to those type of epithets to degrade another human being. I’m trying to make a living for myself and for my family.

“It’s unfortunate. The best thing about myself is that I continue to move on, and still play the game hard. Let people be who they are. Let them show their true colors.’’

Red Sox officials confirmed to USA TODAY Sports that a fan threw a bag of peanuts at Jones, and was ejected from the ballpark. They were investigating the total amount of people who were ejected from the game, but believed it was about half the amount for a variety of violations.

Jones was grateful the fan was caught who threw the bag of peanuts toward him into the dugout, but wishes the punishment was much more severe.

“It’s pathetic,’’ he said. “It’s called a coward. What they need to do is that instead of kicking them out of the stadium, they need to fine them 10 grand, 20 grand, 30 grand. Something that really hurts somebody. Make them pay in full. And if they don’t, take it out of their check.

“That’s how you hurt somebody. You suspend them from the stadium, what does that mean? It’s a slap on the wrist. That guy needs to be confronted, and he needs to pay for what he’s done.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/05/01/orioles-adam-jones-berated-racist-taunts-fenway-park-peanuts/101187172/

You pull shit like this you should be banned for life from the park…. This shit has no place in any sport
 
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Tyrone Biggums

nfl meets tri-annually at a secret country mansion
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Aug 15, 2006
6,424
Boston is going to gain the reputation as one of the most racist cities in the world. Bomani and others are correct in the eyes of the people outside of the state, right or wrong. How the hell can you get away with yelling racial slurs? Awful. Just awful.
 

pokey_reese

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Jun 25, 2008
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Boston, MA
Seriously. What's almost as bad is that he thought that this was behavior that was going to be tolerated? Like, in whatever circles he normally moves in this is acceptable. I'm not saying that incredulously, though I wish I were. I have met this person, or someone like him. He felt okay enough not just harboring these thoughts, but shouting them in a crowded public place, and directing them openly at a man. A person. A human being from his own country, his own society and community. It's good that some people can find this shocking, but it's worse that so many people can't.
 

LogansDad

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Nov 15, 2006
29,049
Alamogordo
Yeah, I noticed that during the game, and thought he might have gotten into it with a fan at some point. He was extra angry today, and it didn't seem like it was just gamesmanship between him and Machado, like the ESPN telecast would have you think.

Heinous. I hope they know who it was, and I hope he never gets to see a game in Fenway, or any other stadium,again. But I doubt that will happen.
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
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Dec 4, 2009
46,274
This “fan” was calling him the N word when 2/3rds of our OF is also African American…. But I doubt he would call Mookie or JBJ the N word…...
 

Manramsclan

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Jul 14, 2005
3,371
The bottom line here is, if you are at the game, and you hear someone yell a racial slur, it's your responsibility to talk to an usher and get that person kicked out of the game.
 

ALiveH

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Apr 23, 2010
1,104
I totally believe it could've happened but before I 100% believe this, I'd want to see some corroboration - a video / audio recording, confirmation from someone who works at fenway or other witnesses.
 

LesterFan

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Dec 12, 2010
15,046
Boston, MA
I totally believe it could've happened but before I 100% believe this, I'd want to see some corroboration - a video / audio recording, confirmation from someone who works at fenway or other witnesses.
For what it's worth, Bob Nightengale did tweet out that Red Sox officials confirmed the incident.