Red Sox Deadline Discussion

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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HomeRunBaker said:
So we are suddenly banking on X not being a horrific fielder at SS (and 3b) while WMB suddenly learned how to hit/lay off breaking pitches down and away? This is what we are banking on? Good lord.

I'm rooting HARD for Marrero to continue his offensive improvement at PAW the rest of the year. It may be our only hope to stop this insanity of a X/WMB left side.
 
He's got a .682 OPS so far with no power whatsoever, albeit in a small 88 AB sample. 
 
I think Marrero might end up just fine with the bat for SS but there's very little to suggest that he'll be ready for the majors anytime before second half 2015 at the very earliest.
 

JohntheBaptist

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HomeRunBaker said:
So we are suddenly banking on X not being a horrific fielder at SS (and 3b) while WMB suddenly learned how to hit/lay off breaking pitches down and away? This is what we are banking on? Good lord.

I'm rooting HARD for Marrero to continue his offensive improvement at PAW the rest of the year. It may be our only hope to stop this insanity of a X/WMB left side.
Wait, what is the alternative, exactly? They're young players, we're seeing if they can advance through their struggles.
 

joe dokes

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HomeRunBaker said:
So we are suddenly banking on X not being a horrific fielder at SS (and 3b) while WMB suddenly learned how to hit/lay off breaking pitches down and away? This is what we are banking on? Good lord.

I'm rooting HARD for Marrero to continue his offensive improvement at PAW the rest of the year. It may be our only hope to stop this insanity of a X/WMB left side.
 
I dont know if there are numbers to support this (or refute it), but the eyeball test clearly had Bogaerts as a much better SS in his last 20 games there than in his first.  I can't say where it put him on the scale, but by the end, he was looking pretty smooth on plays where he looked very not-smooth only a few weeks earlier.
 
Middlebrooks's loss of athelticism remains a mystery to me. When he first came up he looked liek an athlete playing 3B. That didn;t mean he'd be great at it, but I had hope that his athletic skills would carry him through.  Ever since, he's looked stiff and un-athletic. Maybe its was injury, maybe it was his off season workouts....
 

Puffy

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ehaz said:
 
You forgot that X hits better at SS.
 
Kidding aside, I wouldn't bank on Marrero being the opening day starter.  Far more likely that we see X/Holt in some form.  If they finally give up on WMB there are a few options on the FA market such as Headley and Hanley.
 
Not to mention that they should have chips available and space in the budget if they decide to pursue a guy like Tulowitzki (if available).
 

Harry Hooper

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joe dokes said:
 
Middlebrooks's loss of athelticism remains a mystery to me. When he first came up he looked liek an athlete playing 3B. That didn;t mean he'd be great at it, but I had hope that his athletic skills would carry him through.  Ever since, he's looked stiff and un-athletic. Maybe its was injury, maybe it was his off season workouts....
 
 
As discussed in the mega-Middlebrooks thread, the hope is that his now-rectified vision problems may have been the cause of at least some of the observed stiffness, i.e., the ball was rushing up on him and he looked slow to react. 
 

RochesterSamHorn

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Snodgrass'Muff said:
 
I don't think there is any chance that Cespedes is a piece in a Stanton deal. He's not controlled after next year, so of what value is he to the Marlins? Craig is probably more attractive if he can put together a solid final two months of the season as he's under control for four more seasons and with a subsidy could be extremely cheap. They might be gearing up for a run at Stanton, but Cespedes may also indicate they aren't optimistic he's ever going to be available for something they are willing to pay.
 
Why wouldn't Miami consider Cespedes? He would be a tremendous draw in Miami that would cover his salary in increased gate receipts alone. Let's not forget it's Miami, where it's more about entertainment than baseball. Heck, for that reason, I'd even explore a Cespedes for Christian Yelich.
 

RochesterSamHorn

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
Because he is only under control for one more year. Miami will want someone they can control for 4-6 years. 
 
 I realize that. But as I mentioned, his marketing will cover his next contract, and I'm sure he would love playing down there than up here.
 

RochesterSamHorn

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
The Marlins are on pace to draw 1.77M this year, which is actually up from last year. 
 
They actually rank a little higher in Fan Cost Index (which is calculated as 4 tickets, 2 beers, 4 sodas, 4 hot dogs, parking, 2 programs and 2 hats or other memorabilia), than you would expect, clocking in at $221.02, ranking #9. This can be found here: https://www.teammarketing.com/public/uploadedPDFs/2014+mlb+fci.pdf
 
Which means they will pull in about $98M gross from gates and concessions this year. That is a healthy estimate, as with about 200K less last year, Bloomberg had them at $77M last year (http://www.bloomberg.com/infographics/2013-10-23/mlb-team-values.html). But let's work with that.
 
While tickets are pretty much pure revenue, everything else is not, with margins varying. But let's assume 50% profit (which is more than aggressive, but whatever), once you balance out labor and cost of goods. (It's important here to remember that the teams themselves bid out the concessions and merchandising to outside companies. If you pay $4 for a hot dog that cost $.50, the team does not take $3.50 profit). 
 
Now let's assume Cespedes will cost about $15M on a four or five year deal (which I think is a modest estimate, YMMV). So they need to bring $30M more to gates to cover his deal, each year, over the life of it to break even. 
 
To cover that cost, they would need to sell close to 7K tickets per game more, every game on average for 4-5 years. Which would put them close to 30K per game. Their franchise high since 2001 is 2012 when they averaged 27.4K with a brand new stadium and a bunch of shiny new free agents. 
 
Do you think they are raising attendance that much from one Cuban guy? 
 
 And this is what I love about SOSH. I was generalizing in my head and i got a beat down lesson in marketing and economics. Thanks dude...seriously.
 

O Captain! My Captain!

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Now is an evaluation period, which is neat. Two months to learn a few things about the players we've acquired, already had, and have in the minors.
 
Questions to answer, in no particular order:
 
  1. Is Bogaerts a shortstop? I'm assuming his hitting will come around, but figuring out his defensive position is a pretty big priority. Other shortstop options are: Holt (probably not a viable ML shortstop), Betts (really a 2b, can he play SS?), a FA (JJ Hardy, old friend Jed Lowrie??). I'm thinking about the beginning of 2015 here, so Marrero is probably not a viable option.
  2. Can Cespedes play RF in Fenway, or is he a LF? This determines whether there's a spot for other LF-only options, like Craig or Nava, who don't have a place to play assuming Ortiz and Napoli have 1b and DH locked down. If Cespedes is a LF, there are a fair number of options for RF (healthy Victorino, Betts, Holt).
  3. What's going on at 3B? If Bogaerts isn't a viable SS, the position is his. Otherwise, there's the returning WMB, Holt, and Cecchini. We know what we have with Holt, pretty much, but the other two are pretty huge question marks.
  4. What's going on with the pitching? Obviously the rotation isn't going to be Kelly, Buchholz, and three kids, but this is a good time to figure out who is a good option for the 2015 rotation, who profiles more towards a bullpen/swingman/depth role, and who needs more seasoning at AAA. Key players here are Kelly, Workman, RDLR, Webster, Ranaudo, Barnes. There are also bullpen-only guys like Britton, Alex Wilson, and maybe Hembree to assess, to see what we have in bullpen pieces.
  5. Who backs up C? Ross could be re-signed. Dan Butler is an option. Swihart is an important piece for the future, but is too far away to have a role at the beginning of 2015, as far as I know. 
  6. Is JBJ the answer as a CF? Probably the answer is yes, given his outstanding defense, improving offense, and the confidence already shown in him. If he absolutely tanks, there's Betts, Holt, and Victorino as not very confidence-inducing options on the team already.
I'm probably missing a few things. Billy Beane was quoted in Moneyball as having described the first third of a season as the time to assess what you have. That's what these last two months are going to be like, as an extended preview towards building a competitive 2015.
 

Rovin Romine

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RochesterSamHorn said:
 
Oh, and BTW, yes.
 
I'd love to see a breakdown of the fan base in attendance.  I get the impression there are few die hard Marlins fans, but that they did well with corporate sponsors and local businesses when the new stadium opened.  (Little Havana is still the easiest place to access the stadium from.)  Like any other club though, they have to start winning to draw.  I'd guess having a few regular Cuban stars would help cement fan loyalty vis a vis Cuban American kids wanting a role model, but no one likes to sink money into buying tickets for a so-so team.   
 
The only way you pack Marlins park with a shitty team featuring a good Cuban player is if that player goes back to Cuba and cuts off both Castro's heads. 
 
In other news, we're not getting Stanton.  
 
Also, we're not trading Cespedes to the Marlins.  
 

joe dokes

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Rovin Romine said:
 
I'd love to see a breakdown of the fan base in attendance.  I get the impression there are few die hard Marlins fans, but that they did well with corporate sponsors and local businesses when the new stadium opened.  (Little Havana is still the easiest place to access the stadium from.)  Like any other club though, they have to start winning to draw.  I'd guess having a few regular Cuban stars would help cement fan loyalty vis a vis Cuban American kids wanting a role model, but no one likes to sink money into buying tickets for a so-so team.   
 
The only way you pack Marlins park with a shitty team featuring a good Cuban player is if that player goes back to Cuba and cuts off both Castro's heads. 
 
In other news, we're not getting Stanton.  
 
Also, we're not trading Cespedes to the Marlins.  
 
I think this is right about the Cuban angle.
 
When they started, it was "Lets get Orestes Destrade, he'll draw the Cubans."
Then it was "Lets build a new stadium closer to Little Havana, it will draw the Cubans."
 

ivanvamp

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O Captain! My Captain! said:
Now is an evaluation period, which is neat. Two months to learn a few things about the players we've acquired, already had, and have in the minors.
 
Questions to answer, in no particular order:
 
  1. Is Bogaerts a shortstop? I'm assuming his hitting will come around, but figuring out his defensive position is a pretty big priority. Other shortstop options are: Holt (probably not a viable ML shortstop), Betts (really a 2b, can he play SS?), a FA (JJ Hardy, old friend Jed Lowrie??). I'm thinking about the beginning of 2015 here, so Marrero is probably not a viable option.
  2. Can Cespedes play RF in Fenway, or is he a LF? This determines whether there's a spot for other LF-only options, like Craig or Nava, who don't have a place to play assuming Ortiz and Napoli have 1b and DH locked down. If Cespedes is a LF, there are a fair number of options for RF (healthy Victorino, Betts, Holt).
  3. What's going on at 3B? If Bogaerts isn't a viable SS, the position is his. Otherwise, there's the returning WMB, Holt, and Cecchini. We know what we have with Holt, pretty much, but the other two are pretty huge question marks.
  4. What's going on with the pitching? Obviously the rotation isn't going to be Kelly, Buchholz, and three kids, but this is a good time to figure out who is a good option for the 2015 rotation, who profiles more towards a bullpen/swingman/depth role, and who needs more seasoning at AAA. Key players here are Kelly, Workman, RDLR, Webster, Ranaudo, Barnes. There are also bullpen-only guys like Britton, Alex Wilson, and maybe Hembree to assess, to see what we have in bullpen pieces.
  5. Who backs up C? Ross could be re-signed. Dan Butler is an option. Swihart is an important piece for the future, but is too far away to have a role at the beginning of 2015, as far as I know. 
  6. Is JBJ the answer as a CF? Probably the answer is yes, given his outstanding defense, improving offense, and the confidence already shown in him. If he absolutely tanks, there's Betts, Holt, and Victorino as not very confidence-inducing options on the team already.
I'm probably missing a few things. Billy Beane was quoted in Moneyball as having described the first third of a season as the time to assess what you have. That's what these last two months are going to be like, as an extended preview towards building a competitive 2015.
 
Good summation.  On the JBJ front, over his last 32 games, he's put up a slash line of:  .267/.313/.333/.646.  Not exactly earth-shattering, but much better.  Push it back further to his last 52 games:  .250/.311/.327/.639.
 
If he continues to produce like that, given his plus-plus fielding, he would be a pretty decent player.
 
Personally, I think, given a chance to grow into the job, he ends up being a .270/.330/.360/.690 hitter with absolutely lights-out defense and a great arm.  That .690 ops would put him at #14 in MLB among qualified CFs.  So not great, obviously, but *average*.  If he has an average bat for his position, with his defense….that's terrific.
 

nattysez

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A rare whiff from Leigh Montville.  I assume his follow-up article will praise Ruben Amaro for having "loyalty" to his overpaid last-place team.
 
This was modern baseball business, cut-throat, number-crunching business. Having a tough time? Have it on your own time. Hand in your key to executive wash room. Your phone and computer have been disconnected. Your files now belong to us. This was the concept of what-have-you-done-for-me-lately executed at hyper speed. Baseball according to Dilbert.
There will be plenty of appraisals of all of these deals that will say that Red Sox management executed some kind of coup. There will be some appraisals that say they made a mistake. Numbers will be dissected 87 different ways, players weighed on 87 different kind of scales, and somebody with an abacus and a laptop computer immediately will decide who won and who lost, even though the results in the next four, five or 10 years will tell the true story. 
Nowhere in any of these evaluations will loyalty be mentioned, the ability to survive hard times and come back again, the concept of the team, the idea that everyone is in the same enterprise together. Cheering for laundry. That's the modern concept. Everybody makes moves. Everybody deals. Fill the baseball suits. Fill the stands. 
The public relations concept all teams preach is: "Hey, you should love us. We're family." Family is the key to everything. Family is chemistry. Family is strength. Family is winning. 
A closeness is supposed to develop among the hired hands on the roster, a camaraderie, a group mentality. These are supposed to be the Rover Boys singing in the shower together, eating together, everyone playing practical jokes on one another in the clubhouse. Management is Mom and Dad and the players are the irrepressible kids. Everyone packs into the old station wagon and takes trips to other cities to do wonderful things together. Family!
It all works, except when it doesn't. That is when Mom and Dad drown the kids. 
 
 

DJnVa

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Nowhere in any of these evaluations will loyalty be mentioned, the ability to survive hard times and come back again, the concept of the team, the idea that everyone is in the same enterprise together.
 
 
These guys are pending FA, so I wonder, if they stayed and signed elsewhere, if he'd write about loyalty.
 
That said, I'm pretty sure these guys don't mind heading out and stepping into a pennant race.
 

seantoo

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Rovin Romine said:
 
I'd love to see a breakdown of the fan base in attendance.  I get the impression there are few die hard Marlins fans, but that they did well with corporate sponsors and local businesses when the new stadium opened.  (Little Havana is still the easiest place to access the stadium from.)  Like any other club though, they have to start winning to draw.  I'd guess having a few regular Cuban stars would help cement fan loyalty vis a vis Cuban American kids wanting a role model, but no one likes to sink money into buying tickets for a so-so team.   
 
The only way you pack Marlins park with a shitty team featuring a good Cuban player is if that player goes back to Cuba and cuts off both Castro's heads. 
 
In other news, we're not getting Stanton.  
 
Also, we're not trading Cespedes to the Marlins.  
They are in contention for the wild card this season and that after they lost their ace. Winning brings the fans and they have a shot at it next year.
 

amfox1

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MakMan44 said:
I wonder who they meant. I'd assume Zach Lee.
 
Or Chris Anderson.  Anderson vs. Rodriguez is pretty close in my mind, although Rodriguez is eight months younger and a level higher.  Lee is third of the three, for me.
 

MakMan44

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amfox1 said:
 
Or Chris Anderson.  Anderson vs. Rodriguez is pretty close in my mind, although Rodriguez is eight months younger and a level higher.  Lee is third of the three, for me.
Agreed all around. 
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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wade boggs chicken dinner

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