Red Sox DFA Jeter Downs to make room on 40 man for Yoshida

Bread of Yaz

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Mar 12, 2019
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The Padres supposed offer was reported. They could have had Naylor or Margot, Quantrill or Lucchesi, and the Sox would have had to take on more of Wil Myers’ contract than they wanted to.

No Price relief.

It would be nice to have Naylor and Quantrill.

But they saved more money on the trade they consummated.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2873372-mookie-betts-trade-rumors-padres-possible-offer-for-red-sox-star-revealed.amp.html
Naylor has accumulated a total of 1.3 WAR in the last four years. Quantrill has superficially appealing numbers (ERA of 228 and 338 in the last two seasons), but has been the beneficiary of very good luck and probably excellent defense (xERAs were 4.01 and 4.31 with BABIPs at 270 and 280 and LOB% was 80 and 76).
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
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Dec 7, 2008
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Sorry wasnt implying that was ever actually on the table. I quickly looked up the 2019 dodgers prospect list and saw Lux was a few spots higher than downs...so it was purely a hypothetical built on the premise that our prospect return would've been better if not for Price and his salary (as had been stated upthread).
The prospect return was ok, they got a very good "prospect" (technically a 2nd year player), a good prospect, and a lotto ticket. The problem was the very good prospect regressed after a great first 2 major league seasons, and the good prospect flamed out (possibly because he wasn't that good to begin with, possibly because he missed a season, possibly because they promoted him too fast, probably a combo). Even without Price in the deal people seem to be far overvaluing what 1 year of Mookie at 27m should be worth in a trade. He was available to nearly the entire league and only 2 teams seemed to be interested.
 

E5 Yaz

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The problem was the very good prospect regressed after a great first 2 major league seasons
Just curious ... I'm looking at Verdugo's numbers compared to 2021 and I'm not seeing much regression in them. What am I missing?
 

Ganthem

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At this point, Bloom can rescue a bunch of children from a burning orphanage and people here would start a thread to shit all over him.
 

jon abbey

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I thought Downs still had 2 options left, correct?
He does, but this move exposes him to a waiver claim by any team who wants to put him on the 40 man, unless BOS trades him first. If they don't trade him, and no one claims him, they can sign him back to a minor league deal (I am not sure if he has to agree or if they still have his rights in that case) and he still has the two options.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
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Just curious ... I'm looking at Verdugo's numbers compared to 2021 and I'm not seeing much regression in them. What am I missing?
First 2 years in the majors including the LA year. 2019+2020 he was worth roughly 4-5 war depending on which war you use over 159 games, with an ops+ of around 115 and very good defense. He followed that up with 2 league averageish years with an ops+ around 105 and below average defense.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Yeah, if no one claims him then the Sox would keep him, he doesn’t have the ability to reject an assignment. I suspect another team with an open
40 man spot may claim him (he has been young for his league, I hear), though, just so they can try to keep him in the system after a potential removal. He may bounce around a bit now.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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At this point, Bloom can rescue a bunch of children from a burning orphanage and people here would start a thread to shit all over him.
If those children don't produce, that thread is entirely warranted.

While I share the view that most attempts here to grade trades are based on very little actual information as well as a lot of (in some cases totally flawed) assumptions, we are a results board. And the results from the Mookie deal are objectively terrible.

However if you are a process person, its hard to argue that Bloom has used (or been allowed to use) all of the financial flexibility the Sox received wisely. This ownership group owes nobody who is of adult age much of anything these days - they got job one done pretty quickly - but I wonder if they have the stomach to compete financially with the big spenders going forward. This current market may simply be too rich for FSG.
 

NickEsasky

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At this point, Bloom can rescue a bunch of children from a burning orphanage and people here would start a thread to shit all over him.
Is there anything he could do or not do they you would criticize? Is there a red line for you where you’d actually admit he’s not infallible?
 

E5 Yaz

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“... ultimately we have our responsibility to every player in this organization to make the right decision by all of them when we’re making decisions for the organization,” Bloom said. “No doubt he was a big part of a really significant trade. That we haven’t gotten him to the level we expected hurts. But at the end of the day, we want to do right by all of our players and he was the right decision, we thought, in this case.”
https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2022/12/red-soxs-chaim-bloom-on-jeter-downs-decision-this-was-a-tough-one.html
 

Hank Scorpio

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Imagine you have a friend who knows somebody in a middling MLB organization. Your friend gets you a job in the team's front office. You show up, say "yes sir" and "no sir", and are generally likeable. It's enough to elevate you to a higher position in the front office, and you get to schmooze a bit with some bigwigs and player agents. Suddenly, people know who you are, and when a GM position opens up, your name is thrown around, until one day you get an interview. You manage to bullshit your way through the interview, and are offered the job as the General Manager of the New York Yankees. It's a huge promotion, and you hurriedly accept.

Then a day or two later, two things dawn on you. 1) You have no idea what the fuck you're doing, and it won't be long before you're exposed as a fraud who is in way over his head... and 2) You hate the fucking New York Yankees.

So rather than slink away quietly into the night, or just letting yourself get fired, you begin a slow, concerted effort to dismantle the organization from the inside out, citing costs, risks, and generally acting like you're the smartest person in the room. And in many ways you are. No one would actually believe you're trying to turn a World Series caliber team into perennial cellar dwellers. But here you are, getting away with it. Turning your least favorite team into a punchline. Sure you'll get fired for it. Someday. But not today. And by then, it will be too late. It'll take those fuckers years to sniff contention again.

I'm not unconvinced that this isn't what's happening with Chaim Bloom.
 

Ganthem

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Is there anything he could do or not do they you would criticize? Is there a red line for you where you’d actually admit he’s not infallible?
He screwed up the Bogey negotiations. He misread what the market was going to be and ended up low balling a player he presumably wanted to keep. I also would like to know what happen with the JBJ trade. It did make sense to look at JBJ as a bounce back option. It made additional sense because at the time there was a promising option in the minors in Duran. The more I look at it though, the more I realize that another move would have made sense. I can also look at the Betts trade and though its main purpose was to rid the Sox of Price's contract it still would have been nice if we got something better then Verdugo out of it. That being said, most of the post on here have been overly reactionary and off the deep end. Bogey not signing sucks and I think there is a decent chance the Sox don't contend this year. At the same time they almost made the playoffs two years ago and they would have had a decent shot if it was not for a massive amount of injuries last year. At the same time guys like Winchowski, Seabold and Crawford had moments of doing really well last year and we have not reach the point where the sample size is large enough for anybody to say definitively what they will become. I doubt they will become top of the rotation starters, but back of the rotation starters and middle relief that doesn't walk the park can still be useful. We also got to see Bello and Casas have a promising start to their career and we saw Schrieber emerge. While I would have liked to see Story play more games, I was happy with the production both offensively and defensively that we got. I am looking forward to seeing what Walters and Mata have this year. I am also hoping Rafeala gets a cup of coffee. I can see York possibly getting a cup of coffee and I think there is a chance Myers is in Double A or Triple A by the end of next year. There have been mistakes, but in my opinion it is not hard to see the positives.
 

bsan34

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Jul 31, 2006
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Imagine you have a friend who knows somebody in a middling MLB organization. Your friend gets you a job in the team's front office. You show up, say "yes sir" and "no sir", and are generally likeable. It's enough to elevate you to a higher position in the front office, and you get to schmooze a bit with some bigwigs and player agents. Suddenly, people know who you are, and when a GM position opens up, your name is thrown around, until one day you get an interview. You manage to bullshit your way through the interview, and are offered the job as the General Manager of the New York Yankees. It's a huge promotion, and you hurriedly accept.

Then a day or two later, two things dawn on you. 1) You have no idea what the fuck you're doing, and it won't be long before you're exposed as a fraud who is in way over his head... and 2) You hate the fucking New York Yankees.

So rather than slink away quietly into the night, or just letting yourself get fired, you begin a slow, concerted effort to dismantle the organization from the inside out, citing costs, risks, and generally acting like you're the smartest person in the room. And in many ways you are. No one would actually believe you're trying to turn a World Series caliber team into perennial cellar dwellers. But here you are, getting away with it. Turning your least favorite team into a punchline. Sure you'll get fired for it. Someday. But not today. And by then, it will be too late. It'll take those fuckers years to sniff contention again.

I'm not unconvinced that this isn't what's happening with Chaim Bloom.
I might have to change my vote in the "Rate Your Faith..." thread from "There is no plan." to this.
 

grepal

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Jul 20, 2005
53
I think Jeter was, at one time, the Sox number 2 or 3 ranked prospect. Just shows that all prospects are suspects until they perform for the Big Club. Every MLB team has a bunch of guys who were top draft picks, top prospects, etc. who were no help to the big club at all. Well at least Jeter hit a homerun he will remember forever. Temper the Jeter news that Moncada was baseball's number one prospect and he got the Sox Sale. Well he and our top pitching prosect whom i can't even remember but most of us were very excited about him.
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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Imagine you have a friend who knows somebody in a middling MLB organization. Your friend gets you a job in the team's front office. You show up, say "yes sir" and "no sir", and are generally likeable. It's enough to elevate you to a higher position in the front office, and you get to schmooze a bit with some bigwigs and player agents. Suddenly, people know who you are, and when a GM position opens up, your name is thrown around, until one day you get an interview. You manage to bullshit your way through the interview, and are offered the job as the General Manager of the New York Yankees. It's a huge promotion, and you hurriedly accept.

Then a day or two later, two things dawn on you. 1) You have no idea what the fuck you're doing, and it won't be long before you're exposed as a fraud who is in way over his head... and 2) You hate the fucking New York Yankees.

So rather than slink away quietly into the night, or just letting yourself get fired, you begin a slow, concerted effort to dismantle the organization from the inside out, citing costs, risks, and generally acting like you're the smartest person in the room. And in many ways you are. No one would actually believe you're trying to turn a World Series caliber team into perennial cellar dwellers. But here you are, getting away with it. Turning your least favorite team into a punchline. Sure you'll get fired for it. Someday. But not today. And by then, it will be too late. It'll take those fuckers years to sniff contention again.

I'm not unconvinced that this isn't what's happening with Chaim Bloom.
By any chance have you been talking with my wife? She's been calling Bloom a mole for a while now.
 

brandonchristensen

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I think Bloom is simming the offseason.

When he takes back control he’s going to hope he hasn’t saved yet.
 

cannonball 1729

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He does, but this move exposes him to a waiver claim by any team who wants to put him on the 40 man, unless BOS trades him first. If they don't trade him, and no one claims him, they can sign him back to a minor league deal (I am not sure if he has to agree or if they still have his rights in that case) and he still has the two options.
They should still be able to outright him (without asking his permission) if no one claims him - he doesn't have 3 years of service time and has never been outrighted before, so if he clears waivers, the Sox can assign him to the minors and keep his two options.
 

Beomoose

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I think Bloom is simming the offseason.

When he takes back control he’s going to hope he hasn’t saved yet.
Sometimes you leave the speed on 3x while you take a leak, and the first thing you see when you get back is how much has happened that you can't easily un-do.
 

Traut

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I think Jeter was, at one time, the Sox number 2 or 3 ranked prospect. Just shows that all prospects are suspects until they perform for the Big Club. Every MLB team has a bunch of guys who were top draft picks, top prospects, etc. who were no help to the big club at all. Well at least Jeter hit a homerun he will remember forever. Temper the Jeter news that Moncada was baseball's number one prospect and he got the Sox Sale. Well he and our top pitching prosect whom i can't even remember but most of us were very excited about him.
One of my favorite examples of this is the Red Sox getting top prospect Andy Marte for Edgar Renteria in December and then flipping Marte to Cleveland for Coco Crisp in January.

Marte at the time was a top 10 and possibly even 1 prospect in baseball and he was at the AAA level.

IIRC SoSH was thrilled with his acquisition and disappointed with his trade. In the end Crisp was a haul for Marte. Which says more about Marte than it does Crisp.
 
Last edited:

sfip

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If those children don't produce, that thread is entirely warranted.

While I share the view that most attempts here to grade trades are based on very little actual information as well as a lot of (in some cases totally flawed) assumptions, we are a results board. And the results from the Mookie deal are objectively terrible.

However if you are a process person, its hard to argue that Bloom has used (or been allowed to use) all of the financial flexibility the Sox received wisely. This ownership group owes nobody who is of adult age much of anything these days - they got job one done pretty quickly - but I wonder if they have the stomach to compete financially with the big spenders going forward. This current market may simply be too rich for FSG.
As I explained to another SoSHer on Twitter, I don't expect the current market to stay this way for long. The market tends to expand soon after a CBA, and this is the 1st full offseason since the CBA was signed.

Just because other teams are risking the longterm consequences Seattle & LAAA had with Cano & Pujols doesn't mean the Red Sox have to. We saw the deal they made to sign Yoshida, the significant steps they made so far to rebuild the bullpen, and Bloom previously said he plans to sign at least 7 players this offseason. I'm willing to wait and see how the rest of the offseason goes before fully reacting.

If there's any criticism I have of Bloom offhand, it's that he didn't find a way to trade to get below the luxury tax threshold at the trade deadline when the Sox had such a low probability to make the playoffs and had so many free agents at the end of the season.
 

Toe Nash

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I'm not as up on prospects as I used to be but did we just lose Thad Ward as the first player off the board in the rule 5 draft, when we already had an agreement with Yoshida, and then DFA Downs to make the 40-man space for Yoshida?

Seems like we could have DFA'd Downs earlier and protected Ward instead. Downs not panning out is one thing but this seems like basic asset mismanagement.
 

jon abbey

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I'm not as up on prospects as I used to be but did we just lose Thad Ward as the first player off the board in the rule 5 draft, when we already had an agreement with Yoshida, and then DFA Downs to make the 40-man space for Yoshida?

Seems like we could have DFA'd Downs earlier and protected Ward instead. Downs not panning out is one thing but this seems like basic asset mismanagement.
That still would leave you with 41 guys and needing to make a move though.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I'm not as up on prospects as I used to be but did we just lose Thad Ward as the first player off the board in the rule 5 draft, when we already had an agreement with Yoshida, and then DFA Downs to make the 40-man space for Yoshida?

Seems like we could have DFA'd Downs earlier and protected Ward instead. Downs not panning out is one thing but this seems like basic asset mismanagement.
Sure, but if the Sox still plan on adding ~6 or more players per Bloom, wouldn’t they have likely needed to DFA Ward later anyways? I think a case can be made that they had a better chance of keeping Ward and Politi by doing it the way they did, but it’s a tough one. Ideally they would have cleared out some of the depth guys on the 40 via trade but I don’t think a lot of these guys have tons of value in a league where lots of teams have 40 man issues.
 

jon abbey

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I feel like there are a few common misunderstandings about the rule 5 draft. Once you add someone to the 40 man, they are there for good (to take them off, you need to expose them to waivers), so if they're not ready to help a team right away, they take up a 40 man spot anyway. Also, if someone is drafted like Ward, they still have to last the whole season on the acquiring team, the majority of players taken are offered back to the original team eventually.

Also if someone is left exposed to the rule 5 draft and isn't taken, that gives their team an entire additional year of development to see how they progress as well as not starting their clock yet because they're not on the 40 man. NY rolled the dice by leaving a bunch of promising but raw position players unprotected, none got taken and now NY will get to see how they develop this season and/or move them as secondary trade chips.
 

Coachster

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One of my favorite examples of this is the Red Sox getting top prospect Andy Marte for Edgar Renteria in December and then flipping Marte to Cleveland for Coco Crisp in January.

Marte at the time was a top 10 and possibly even 1 prospect in baseball and he was at the AAA level.

IIRC SoSH was thrilled with his acquisition and disappointed with his trade and end the end Crisp was a haul for Marte. Which says more about Marte than it does Crisp.
I was going to suggest we try and trade for Marte again, but it turns out he died in a car crash in 2017.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18531049/former-major-leaguer-andy-marte-dies-car-accident
 

TheYellowDart5

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Yeah, Washington is in pure throwing shit at the wall mode, and Downs may well get some run if Luis Garcia flops at second, but he just can't hit, so I imagine he won't be long for D.C. either. And as that tweet suggests, the Nationals are probably the worst franchise imaginable for a guy who needs to work on his hit tool.
 

nvalvo

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These are the risks you can take when you’re a terrible team. Maybe he gets back to being able to make contact in the strike zone and this looks amazing for the Nats. Probably not, though, and we can’t afford a 40 man spot for a guy who doesn’t have much likely future value and isn’t useful as depth.

Good luck to Jeter; seemed like a good dude.
 

A Bad Man

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Seems great for the Nats, anyway; middle infield is pretty damn bleak throughout their system, particularly 2B. A couple of good SS prospects, but they're in the low minors still.
 

jbupstate

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These are the risks you can take when you’re a terrible team. Maybe he gets back to being able to make contact in the strike zone and this looks amazing for the Nats. Probably not, though, and we can’t afford a 40 man spot for a guy who doesn’t have much likely future value and isn’t useful as depth.

Good luck to Jeter; seemed like a good dude.
Was able to see Downs quite a bit in Rochester. The guy absolutely looked like a big leaguer in the field and on the base paths. Just seemed in between at the plate. I hope things turn out well for him… tough replacing a legend.

A good guy - played catch with my son in the stands early in the series and nicely interacted with fans.
 

nvalvo

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Was able to see Downs quite a bit in Rochester. The guy absolutely looked like a big leaguer in the field and on the base paths. Just seemed in between at the plate. I hope things turn out well for him… tough replacing a legend.

A good guy - played catch with my son in the stands early in the series and nicely interacted with fans.
That’s nice to hear. You know, he‘a still young, and with his defensive profile and power he only needs to hit a little bit to have a decent utility career.
 

chrisfont9

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Sure, but if the Sox still plan on adding ~6 or more players per Bloom, wouldn’t they have likely needed to DFA Ward later anyways? I think a case can be made that they had a better chance of keeping Ward and Politi by doing it the way they did, but it’s a tough one. Ideally they would have cleared out some of the depth guys on the 40 via trade but I don’t think a lot of these guys have tons of value in a league where lots of teams have 40 man issues.
And if you're going to lose a guy, lose him in the Rule 5 draft when you get $100k and the other team has to return him the moment they can't tolerate having him on the active roster.