Red Sox in season discussion

NJ_Sox_Fan

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How many players will Sox be without for the Jays series? Houck for sure. JDM, I think? Is there anyone else major that will miss that we know of? I know X did get the vaccine. I cant recall anything about Devers.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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How many players will Sox be without for the Jays series? Houck for sure. JDM, I think? Is there anyone else major that will miss that we know of? I know X did get the vaccine. I cant recall anything about Devers.
Pete Abe says JDM was on his way to Toronto last night.

View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1518330430939877377


Houck is for sure not making the trip. That's all we know. Well, we also know that Josh Taylor won't be re-joining the team from the IL while they're in Toronto. He was put in COVID protocols with a close contact while he was in Worcester last week. Rather than simply testing negative and returning to the team (like Vazquez), he was shut down and quarantined for five days, which is non-vaxxed protocol.

We'll find out in a few hours when players start showing up to the stadium, I guess.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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When do they make the move to DFA Shaw and promote Casas?
Not before June. At least for the Casas part. Shaw could be jettisoned anytime as long as they come up with an alternative back-up for 1B.

I don't mean this to sound like I'm down on Casas as a prospect, but he's not a savior. Whatever is ailing this team offensively isn't going to be solved bringing up a rookie who barely has 100 AAA plate appearances under his belt. He's been good in Worcester, but not so good that keeping him there is holding him back and wasting time.
 

cantor44

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Winning if fun, and losing not so fun. But there is interesting losing and less interesting losing. Like, a losing team with a lot of budding young players, who hasn't put it together quite yet, can be interesting. A team with dynamic personalities can be interesting even if they're losing.

Is it just me, or is this current iteration of the Sox kinda ... boring?

It seems to me, they're being made in the image of their architect: mild, moderate, undramatic. Boring.

Nothing unlikable necessarily, but good lord is this team not particularly fun. No electric athletes. No eccentrics. No Mannys, no Big Papis or Pedros or Pedeys or Millars, no outrageous fielding subs like Peewee, no Native American flashes like Ellsbury, no transcendent athletes like Mookie, no flame throwing clowns like Pap, no fun-loving Japanese magicians like Koji, no Tiants or Freddies or Pudges or Roosters, or Mos, or Cocos, or human vacuum Gonzalezes, or preternatural big nosed palindrome Nomars, or loose cannon Oil Cans, or against my better retrospective judgement bloody sock Schillings, no crazy Carls, no latter day Cansecos or Hendersons, or knuckling Wakes, or glove in your face Captains, no chicken OCD wizards, or Hendus or Deweys or Flyin Hawaiians.

We do have X, who I love (though mild-mannered in his own way), who, as the writing on the wall suggests, is being replaced by a boring Story. Betts replaced by Renfroe replaced by the shell of JBJ. ERod replaced by Wacha (yes he is pitching well, but, kinda zzzzzz). Devers is very fun - though what are the odds they keep him? And who will replace him - Dalbec to third? And while certainly unintentional, they are also a team that is becoming progressively white.

There are some promising young guys on the way perhaps ...but what we have now ... what is this exactly? It could be various things on the stat sheet after 162, but on the field they are borderline soporific.
 
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mikeford

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Hell, Schwarber is way more fun than the current crap at 1B. I haven't looked at his contract, but he's 100× more entertaining than Dalbec and Shaw. He's also better.
We have a legitimate 1B, he's presently in Worcester. Not resigning Schwarber makes sense if you believe Casas will give you roughly the same production but for a fraction of the cost.

Not improving literally any other aspect of the team however...
 

grimshaw

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A couple things I'm repeating in my daily mantra is that Chaim is a very patient GM and Cora is a very patient manager and it all paid off last season. I believe they are in the final stages of a rebuild. Teams aiming for an immediate World Series title don't sign an 84 year old left handed starter, a rehabbing former ace, have two platoons featuring JBJ, Arroyo, Shaw and Dalbec (who barely played in the playoffs) and are at a crossroads with their two most valuable players.

While the current play is difficult to watch at times, I'll be fascinated to see where they are in June when several of the players almost certainly will no longer be on the roster.
 

dynomite

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As of yesterday the Sox were 7-10.

Fun fact: both the 2021 World Series teams (Astros and Braves) started 7-10.

I agree with others that this is a long season and especially with a 3rd Wild Card and an abbreviated Spring it feels like the team is taking April/May to evaluate their options.
 
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ookami7m

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A couple things I'm repeating in my daily mantra is that Chaim is a very patient GM and Cora is a very patient manager and it all paid off last season. I believe they are in the final stages of a rebuild. Teams aiming for an immediate World Series title don't sign an 84 year old left handed starter, a rehabbing former ace, have two platoons featuring JBJ, Arroyo, Shaw and Dalbec (who barely played in the playoffs) and are at a crossroads with their two most valuable players.

While the current play is difficult to watch at times, I'll be fascinated to see where they are in June when several of the players almost certainly will no longer be on the roster.
I'm currently reading Speier's book Homegrown and it talks about Cherrington's Phase 1, Phase 2, and Phase 3 of the rebuild after 2011/12 - I agree this feels like an end of Phase 2 type of scenario as he describes it (I'll have to add quote when I get home as I don't have the book on me)
 

Madmartigan

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As of today the Sox are 7-10.

Fun fact: both the 2021 World Series teams (Astros and Braves) started 7-10.

I agree with others that this is a long season and especially with a 3rd Wild Card and an abbreviated Spring it feels like the team is taking April/May to evaluate their options.
They’re 7-11.
 

Heating up in the bullpen

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Whoever is calling pitches and/or doing advance scouting need to be reassigned. This was amateur hour. Last pitch was right down the dick to Springer who did the only thing he could so with that which was to hit it to Altair V.
On Bichette’s grand slam Danish missed with his first pitch, a fastball low and away. The second pitch was exactly the same, except in the strike zone and Bichette was ready for it. What I don’t know is if it was the call or the execution that was faulty.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I don't know if Vazquez makes the calls or just passes the calls along, but either way... I really didn't want to see him on the '22 team. He'll occasionally have a big hit but otherwise he's cooked. He's been cooked for 2 years. He appears mentally lazy and prone to boneheaded decisions to me (yes, I don't know him personally....) and as a Defacto captain of the team, I complained last season that it appeared that he was rubbing off on his teammates not in a good way.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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As of yesterday the Sox were 7-10.

Fun fact: both the 2021 World Series teams (Astros and Braves) started 7-10.

I agree with others that this is a long season and especially with a 3rd Wild Card and an abbreviated Spring it feels like the team is taking April/May to evaluate their options.
Celtics are a pretty good lesson to not judge too early. Things can come together in ways that are surprising and sometimes the difference between winning and losing is not a massive thing but a series of smaller things. Only a little more than 10 percent of the way in.

That said, baseball is not basketball. Fewer moving parts in basketball and easier to turn things around.

Still, it is very early days. I'm not an idiot and can see the glaring holes and there is every reason to suspect that the things in the roster that are a problem are not going to get better overnight. And this division is grueling. In short, there's a decent chance that we're a 7-11 team and that's what we're going to be. Maybe that's even the most likely possibility, but it's not the only one.
 

Cesar Crespo

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What would you think of a Devers deal that 7 or 8 years with a bit more AAV?? In your posts you keep trying to push that Devers is asking for a 10 year deal when there's no evidence that's the case.
Sorry, just seeing this. I only keep mentioning 10 years because a few posters mention signing him at any expense. If he is willing to sign a deal for 8/200, no one is having this argument. I am not against signing Devers long term, at all. It's the notion that one player makes the team and that life won't go on without Devers. If the team stops spending money all together, then I'll complain. If the team decides signing Trevor Story is better value mid term than Xander Bogaerts long term... not so much.

Devers is a very good player but locking him up to 10/300 (brought up by others) offers only downside. At 8/200, there is at least some room for upside. I'm just against these 10+ year deals all together, doesn't matter who it goes to. I kind of wish the MLB had max contract lengths of 6 years.

Plus, I think the argument of "who do they replace him with?" is a pointless conversation to have (which makes it perfect for message boards). So much can change from now until then. Every season, players emerge from nowhere.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I don't know if Vazquez makes the calls or just passes the calls along, but either way... I really didn't want to see him on the '22 team. He'll occasionally have a big hit but otherwise he's cooked. He's been cooked for 2 years. He appears mentally lazy and prone to boneheaded decisions to me (yes, I don't know him personally....) and as a Defacto captain of the team, I complained last season that it appeared that he was rubbing off on his teammates not in a good way.
I know I sound like a broken record, and I agree that Vazquez is not as good as he was. Who was available that would have been an upgrade and would have fit into the budget? I'm thinking Jose Trevino just based on his numbers this year but I don't really know if he is a real upgrade or not
 

DeadlySplitter

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On pitch calling, posted this in the gamethread as well and expanded a bit now:

I try to give the benefit of the doubt when criticizing pitch calling/sequencing because there's so much we'll never be privy to, but part of pitch calling has to be thinking what happens if it's mislocated, is the batter more likely to miss it because he's fooled on the pitch or not. They definitely played into Springer's hands too much there. Especially with non-Whitlock relievers, relying on pinpoint location a whole AB is foolhardy, and we knew Diekman was on his C game at best last night coming into the Springer AB.

Another example I was reminded of last night, from this year, is game 1 against Detroit. They played right into Javier Baez's hands with high fastballs. Yes they were trying to get a weak contact or miss on high & away, but Brasier missed in and Baez launched it.

The pitching has actually been largely great in the early going. But in some high-leverage ABs, they've flailed pretty badly. The risk-reward is just not in your favor with the pitch calling I'm seeing in these crucial ABs.

As far as Vaz, it was reported by one than one source I believe we were on the doorstep of acquiring Stallings (PIT -> MIA) but Miami swooped in with a slightly better offer at last minute. Stallings would have been at least a defensive upgrade on Vaz. This seems to signal to me Chaim is aware Vaz is way overrated (and wont' be resigned in 2023 unless dirt cheap), but the catching depth is so shallow right now they are stuck with him for this season.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Celtics are a pretty good lesson to not judge too early. Things can come together in ways that are surprising and sometimes the difference between winning and losing is not a massive thing but a series of smaller things. Only a little more than 10 percent of the way in.

That said, baseball is not basketball. Fewer moving parts in basketball and easier to turn things around.

Still, it is very early days. I'm not an idiot and can see the glaring holes and there is every reason to suspect that the things in the roster that are a problem are not going to get better overnight. And this division is grueling. In short, there's a decent chance that we're a 7-11 team and that's what we're going to be. Maybe that's even the most likely possibility, but it's not the only one.
In baseball, after the first 40 games is a good time to look and analyze what you have. In basketball, that's the half way point. You usually know by then. Of course, the C's were well beyond the half way point of the season and still looking like garbage. They aren't really the norm.

We are 18 games into the season. I'm not sure we know anything.
 

BaseballJones

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In baseball, after the first 40 games is a good time to look and analyze what you have. In basketball, that's the half way point. You usually know by then. Of course, the C's were well beyond the half way point of the season and still looking like garbage. They aren't really the norm.

We are 18 games into the season. I'm not sure we know anything.
Well, we know they're 7-11, in fourth place in the division, 5.0 games out of first, and that two of their ostensibly best pitchers won't even be here for another couple of months at the earliest.
 

Ganthem

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Winning if fun, and losing not so fun. But there is interesting losing and less interesting losing. Like, a losing team with a lot of budding young players, who hasn't put it together quite yet, can be interesting. A team with dynamic personalities can be interesting even if they're losing.

Is it just me, or is this current iteration of the Sox kinda ... boring?

It seems to me, they're being made in the image of their architect: mild, moderate, undramatic. Boring.

Nothing unlikable necessarily, but good lord is this team not particularly fun. No electric athletes. No eccentrics. No Mannys, no Big Papis or Pedros or Pedeys or Millars, no outrageous fielding subs like Peewee, no Native American flashes like Ellsbury, no transcendent athletes like Mookie, no flame throwing clowns like Pap, no fun-loving Japanese magicians like Koji, no Tiants or Freddies or Pudges or Roosters, or Mos, or Cocos, or human vacuum Gonzalezes, or preternatural big nosed palindrome Nomars, or loose cannon Oil Cans, or against my better retrospective judgement bloody sock Schillings, no crazy Carls, no latter day Cansecos or Hendersons, or knuckling Wakes, or glove in your face Captains, no chicken OCD wizards, or Hendus or Deweys or Flyin Hawaiians.

We do have X, who I love (though mild-mannered in his own way), who, as the writing on the wall suggests, is being replaced by a boring Story. Betts replaced by Renfroe replaced by the shell of JBJ. ERod replaced by Wacha (yes he is pitching well, but, kinda zzzzzz). Devers is very fun - though what are the odds they keep him? And who will replace him - Dalbec to third? And while certainly unintentional, they are also a team that is becoming progressively white.

There are some promising young guys on the way perhaps ...but what we have now ... what is this exactly? It could be various things on the stat sheet after 162, but on the field they are borderline soporific.
The 2007 team was pretty dull. I honestly don't care about theatrics or eccentric personalities as long as they are winning and thus far there has been no proven correlation between eccentric personalities and winning.
 

tims4wins

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The 2007 team was pretty dull. I honestly don't care about theatrics or eccentric personalities as long as they are winning and thus far there has been no proven correlation between eccentric personalities and winning.
Not sure you can call a team with Pedroia, Youk, Manny, Ortiz, Schilling, Papelbon, Dougie, Beckett, and Tavarez dull. They weren't the "Idiots" of '04 but they had a ton of personality and personalities.
 

chawson

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I don't know if Vazquez makes the calls or just passes the calls along, but either way... I really didn't want to see him on the '22 team. He'll occasionally have a big hit but otherwise he's cooked. He's been cooked for 2 years. He appears mentally lazy and prone to boneheaded decisions to me (yes, I don't know him personally....) and as a Defacto captain of the team, I complained last season that it appeared that he was rubbing off on his teammates not in a good way.
Vazquez is still one of the better defensive catchers in the league, and probably an average one overall. Weird stuff happens (like standing up and blocking the ump's view of that missed strike 3 call to Choi the other night) but I wouldn't say he's mentally lazy or prone to boneheaded decisions or anything.

Still, I think I'm with you in sentiment. It's surprising that the team was in on Stallings (and so early in the offseason), and still didn't make a move. The team must have known that Vaz's big 2019 was heavily aided by the juiced ball. I wish something like Dalbec and Duran for Murphy had happened this offseason, but it very well might not have been an option.

Catcher is such a weird position. There's probably more intangible factors at play than any other roster spot. It's easy to say now that the Sox should have grabbed Max Stassi, Travis d'Arnaud or Jonah Heim when they were more or less free in 19-20, but betting on Ronaldo Hernandez and Connor Wong didn't seem much worse. I would have been psyched had Bloom traded for Mitch Garver or Austin Nola, but they're playing worse than Vaz is right now.

It does seem like a position we could most readily make a FA splash to improve next offseason. A 2- or 3-year deal for Willson Contreras, Omar Narvaez or Mike Zunino would shore it up nicely.
 

OilcanDroid

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Winning if fun, and losing not so fun.
I'm just a lousy lurker, but I think you could have stopped there.This is a fun team, they're just losing. Often, it seems, in the most dramatic way possible.

The new* guys are interesting. Story is an extraordinary (could play many sports at a high level) athlete and shows it off every night. Strahm is a goofball baseball card nerd with a Youtube channel and headbanger hair . Read this story about Diekman. AND Dick Mountain* fer cryin out loud.

I think we know what we have personality and play-style wise with Devers, Bogaerts, Eovaldi, and the like. Everyone seemed to think they were pretty fun at least since, say, 2018. But maybe you need a reminder that Kiké Hernandez is one of the most entertaining players in the game.

I even think Bob and Barnes are fundamentally likable despite their struggles.

This is a good squad that I think is easy to root for, especially if we stop scouring them as some sort of projection of the GM's psyche.
 

chawson

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I'm just a lousy lurker, but I think you could have stopped there.This is a fun team, they're just losing. Often, it seems, in the most dramatic way possible.

The new* guys are interesting. Story is an extraordinary (could play many sports at a high level) athlete and shows it off every night. Strahm is a goofball baseball card nerd with a Youtube channel and headbanger hair . Read this story about Diekman. AND Dick Mountain* fer cryin out loud.

I think we know what we have personality and play-style wise with Devers, Bogaerts, Eovaldi, and the like. Everyone seemed to think they were pretty fun at least since, say, 2018. But maybe you need a reminder that Kiké Hernandez is one of the most entertaining players in the game.

I even think Bob and Barnes are fundamentally likable despite their struggles.

This is a good squad that I think is easy to root for, especially if we stop scouring them as some sort of projection of the GM's psyche.
Good post!
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I know I sound like a broken record, and I agree that Vazquez is not as good as he was. Who was available that would have been an upgrade and would have fit into the budget? I'm thinking Jose Trevino just based on his numbers this year but I don't really know if he is a real upgrade or not
I honestly would have been fine with Plawecki as the primary starting catcher, Wong receiving 2/5 starts. Keeping an eye on Hernandez in AAA for defensive improvement.
 

Mr. Stinky Esq.

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Not sure you can call a team with Pedroia, Youk, Manny, Ortiz, Schilling, Papelbon, Dougie, Beckett, and Tavarez dull. They weren't the "Idiots" of '04 but they had a ton of personality and personalities.
Yeah, what a spicy take. Pedroia in the World Series ("Ask Jeff f--king Francis who the f--k I am. I'm the guy who hit a bomb and just ended their f--king season."); Jon Lester, having beat cancer, returning and winning the clinching game of the WS; Beckett lights out and thowing a shutout in the playoffs; the quintessential Manny home run.... And I haven't even mentioned my free taco at Taco Bell or the large father.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Luckily that is still an option.
Going by the early results, I wouldn't call it lucky. They've all hit worse than Christian. I'm not a fan of Christian either but the alternatives are just as ugly. The C spot is a pretty weak one in the organization. Enderso Lira could help but he's forever away and could just as easily bust.

Daniel Flores would be 22 years old. Who knows if he would have worked out, but the Redsox gave him $3.1 million and he was one of the higher ranked international prospects.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Between 2020 and 2021 Plawecki was decent at the fish, in SSS but at this point his game behind the plate seems better than Vazquez. I doubt he would be an offensive improvement but I think his defense and general game-wherewithal would be better than Christian’s
 

Niastri

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Not sure you can call a team with Pedroia, Youk, Manny, Ortiz, Schilling, Papelbon, Dougie, Beckett, and Tavarez dull. They weren't the "Idiots" of '04 but they had a ton of personality and personalities.
One of the highlights of my baseball fandom is drunk Papelbon doing an Irish step dance on the mound after beating the Indians. I couldn't find good video of that celebration, maybe someone could help me out.

I agree, that 2007 team was not boring.

I think winning makes a team less boring, or maybe the personality traits that are super annoying when you lose are loveable when you're winning? The other guys tell you to shut up and stop dancing if you just got beat instead of making another legendary comeback, for instance.
 

cantor44

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I'm just a lousy lurker, but I think you could have stopped there.This is a fun team, they're just losing. Often, it seems, in the most dramatic way possible.

The new* guys are interesting. Story is an extraordinary (could play many sports at a high level) athlete and shows it off every night. Strahm is a goofball baseball card nerd with a Youtube channel and headbanger hair . Read this story about Diekman. AND Dick Mountain* fer cryin out loud.

I think we know what we have personality and play-style wise with Devers, Bogaerts, Eovaldi, and the like. Everyone seemed to think they were pretty fun at least since, say, 2018. But maybe you need a reminder that Kiké Hernandez is one of the most entertaining players in the game.

I even think Bob and Barnes are fundamentally likable despite their struggles.

This is a good squad that I think is easy to root for, especially if we stop scouring them as some sort of projection of the GM's psyche.
I do enjoy these details you offered - certainly not aware of the stuff about Diekman or Strahm, thanks for these links (though couldn't access the story on Story).

Though I wonder if we will see this squad as particularly memorable in the long run (and not sure learning a pitch on twitter counts as interesting per se). I don't think the team is unlikable at all - indeed, might be likable. Just think they are kinda ...moderate, sorta dull. Story has flashed some leather, though I wonder if his peak offensive days are behind him. I don't think anyone feels this is a particularly athletic team: not much speed and not great defensively.

Meanwhile, I'd rather the team win than be eccentric - though of course those things aren't mutually exclusive. Papi and Pedro are larger than life personalities, and Hall of Famers.

I'm not so much projecting Bloom's psyche, as his philosophy and the kinds of players he's drawn to getting. He's sober, measured, even, prudent. His team reflects that for better and for worse.
 

OCD SS

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Going by the early results, I wouldn't call it lucky. They've all hit worse than Christian. I'm not a fan of Christian either but the alternatives are just as ugly. The C spot is a pretty weak one in the organization across all of baseball. Enderso Lira could help but he's forever away and could just as easily bust.

Daniel Flores would be 22 years old. Who knows if he would have worked out, but the Redsox gave him $3.1 million and he was one of the higher ranked international prospects.
It was remarked on heavily over the offseason that C is a point of concern for almost every team. The Sox almost landed Jacob Stallings before the lockout, so it's not like they weren't looking to improve on the position (he's hitting for a 49 OPS+ now, compared to Vazquez's 58... and is a year older)

I share the opinion of Vaz's decline, something just seem like bad decisions; broadcasts have been harping on balls getting by him when he sets up on one knee for awhile, but I can't tell if that's just the trade off and the radio/ TV guys are just styling it old school. My biggest concern is if the pitchers like throwing to him, and wonder if the Sox would just go with Wong as the pitchers do seem to like his receiving and hope his offense improves or they luck into a good season (seems like this is the Yankees' plan with Higashioka).
 

Rovin Romine

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Well, we're certainly poised if one or more of our ML OF or 1B options stink up the joint - poised. Absolutely poised. Just in case that ever were to happen.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Have they considered acquiring players who actually play the position of need? Seems like an obsession over the last years with teaching players how to play new positions.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Yeah, it's mind boggling that they have a bleeding sore in right field but they're giving this guy a first baseman's glove. Cordero's performance last year was basically JBJ-like, so it's not obvious that he's a solution, but I'd rather see him out there than a washed up has been.
 

YTF

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To be frank, the 1B and RF situations in Boston are dreadful ATM. That said, I've no issue with Corderro working out at first. In this day in age nearly every player who is likely to be a bench player at the ML level is asked to carry a couple of gloves because most teams roll with a 3 man (back up catcher excluded) bench, especially if the team still employs the traditional DH type.
 

grimshaw

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That and the fact they aren't really investing in the positions right now, so they are playing matchups until they are ready to splurge in the outfield and wait for Casas. If they squeeze a little extra value out of them great.
 

Diamond Don Aase

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That and the fact they aren't really investing in the positions right now, so they are playing matchups until they are ready to splurge in the outfield and wait for Casas. If they squeeze a little extra value out of them great.
I sure hope they are ready to splurge in the outfield should a 27-year-old five-tool player with a record of sustained excellence at baseball’s next-highest level ever become available.
 

sezwho

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Well, we're certainly poised if one or more of our ML OF or 1B options stink up the joint - poised. Absolutely poised. Just in case that ever were to happen.
I sure hope they are ready to splurge in the outfield should a 27-year-old five-tool player with a record of sustained excellence at baseball’s next-highest level ever become available.
Used a couple paper towels to clean up the sarcasm dripping from my monitor this morning...very well done.

Have they considered acquiring players who actually play the position of need? Seems like an obsession over the last years with teaching players how to play new positions.
Maybe its a simple as the point made upthread about limited benches meaning more position flexibility, but this remains one of the most curious aspects to me of the roster management. JBJ in RF indicates they care about defense, but hot swapping players into new roles (midseason Schwarber for example) seems like pretty qualitative choice rather than quantitative. I know there exists research for players moving down the traditional defensive spectrum but this seems less deterministic.