Red Sox in season discussion

Ganthem

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This team is playing for next year at this point no matter what Cora or any other Red Sox officially says publicly. Therefore use Whitlock where he will be most effective moving forward. Groom him as the closer on a "real" team, unlike this year's sorry lot.
A mid rotation starter is more valuable then a closer.
 

RedOctober3829

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A mid rotation starter is more valuable then a closer.
It is, but I and others firmly believe that Whitlock's best use would be as the multi-inning weapon out of the bullpen that this FO loves to deploy. His stuff has shown to be much better as a reliever(which admittedly every pitcher's stuff should be). I think they should keep him in the bullpen and try to find SP help.
 

ColdSoxPack

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At least (the very least) JBJ brings some defense to the table but there is no excuse for having 2 guys who cant hit play first base. Not for the Red Sox.
 

Ganthem

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Are you displeased with this year's closer's stats?
Is it really hard for you to leave the snark behind and just respond to the point this guy is making. He seems to feel Whitlock is more valuable as a closer. I disagree, but what do you think. If the season is indeed done should Whitlock get a few more starts under his belt or should he stay in the bullpen? Why do you feel that way? You have added absolutely nothing with your snark.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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It is, but I and others firmly believe that Whitlock's best use would be as the multi-inning weapon out of the bullpen that this FO loves to deploy. His stuff has shown to be much better as a reliever(which admittedly every pitcher's stuff should be). I think they should keep him in the bullpen and try to find SP help.
Like you say, most every pitcher's "stuff" plays up in the pen, so that he's shown better stuff thus far as a reliever isn't really a good enough reason to use him exclusively out of the bullpen going forward. Particularly since we're still dealing with small sample sizes for both. Ideally, I'd rather get 170+ innings a year from him as a starter with B+/A- stuff than <100 innings from him as a reliever with A+ stuff.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Is it really hard for you to leave the snark behind and just respond to the point this guy is making. He seems to feel Whitlock is more valuable as a closer. I disagree, but what do you think. If the season is indeed done should Whitlock get a few more starts under his belt or should he stay in the bullpen? Why do you feel that way? You have added absolutely nothing with your snark.
You go to your church and I will go to mine. I think this year’s closer is good enough for the job going forward and Whitlock is better suited for the rotation.

feel free to pick apart my posts.
 

Ganthem

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You go to your church and I will go to mine. I think this year’s closer is good enough for the job going forward and Whitlock is better suited for the rotation.

feel free to pick apart my posts.
I applaud you for actually saying something meaningful. Also I agree with you.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Is it really hard for you to leave the snark behind and just respond to the point this guy is making. He seems to feel Whitlock is more valuable as a closer. I disagree, but what do you think. If the season is indeed done should Whitlock get a few more starts under his belt or should he stay in the bullpen? Why do you feel that way? You have added absolutely nothing with your snark.
The person's post was garbage, was just as snarky, and provided absolutely nothing.

As for Whitlock, I don't know. I can see value in being the multiple inning reliever but I wonder how practical it is in a leverage sense. It seems like something that would be more useful in the playoffs than the regular season.

I'm guessing a full season of Whitlock as a starter clocks in far less than 170 ip too as someone else suggested. If he's closer to 130-140 ip as a starter and around 100 ip as a reliever.... I dunno.

Is a B+ starter for 130-140 innings worth more than an A+ reliever going close to 100? If the SP is going 170+, I go with the SP every time unless my rotation is completely stacked but 70+ innings is a lot more than 30.
 

RedOctober3829

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Like you say, most every pitcher's "stuff" plays up in the pen, so that he's shown better stuff thus far as a reliever isn't really a good enough reason to use him exclusively out of the bullpen going forward. Particularly since we're still dealing with small sample sizes for both. Ideally, I'd rather get 170+ innings a year from him as a starter with B+/A- stuff than <100 innings from him as a reliever with A+ stuff.
I think it is. If he's a middle of the road rotation guy, hasn't Bloom had pretty decent success finding a number 3,4,5 starter type since he's been here? Shouldn't we realistically think he could find what Whitlock would provide in the rotation? I'm not sure pitchers who provide sub 2 ERA's in high leverage situations out of the bullpen grow on trees. If Whitlock could provide the 170+ innings you suggest, it's a different story and one that should be a pretty easy answer which is yes start him. But, he hasn't thrown more than 120.2 IP in any professional season in his career and the 120.2 IP season was 4 years ago. Since then he's pitched 70 in '19, 0 in '20, 73.1 in '21, and 55.2 so far this year between AAA and Boston. If for the next couple seasons he's going to be a 100-120 IP guy at most, then I choose him coming out of the bullpen and giving multiple innings a few times a week.
 

Max Power

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The person's post was garbage, was just as snarky, and provided absolutely nothing.

As for Whitlock, I don't know. I can see value in being the multiple inning reliever but I wonder how practical it is in a leverage sense. It seems like something that would be more useful in the playoffs than the regular season.

I'm guessing a full season of Whitlock as a starter clocks in far less than 170 ip too as someone else suggested. If he's closer to 130-140 ip as a starter and around 100 ip as a reliever.... I dunno.

Is a B+ starter for 130-140 innings worth more than an A+ reliever going close to 100? If the SP is going 170+, I go with the SP every time unless my rotation is completely stacked but 70+ innings is a lot more than 30.
No reliever is going to throw 100 innings unless they're on a strict, starter-like schedule. You need regular rest to be able to throw multiple innings that frequently. If someone is getting regular rest, then you're just not going to be able to use them in the highest leverage innings unless you get extraordinarily lucky with your game situations every 2-3 days.

I think you're probably looking at something like 60-70 innings at max leverage, 100 at something less than that, or 150-170 as a starter.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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No reliever is going to throw 100 innings unless they're on a strict, starter-like schedule. You need regular rest to be able to throw multiple innings that frequently. If someone is getting regular rest, then you're just not going to be able to use them in the highest leverage innings unless you get extraordinarily lucky with your game situations every 2-3 days.

I think you're probably looking at something like 60-70 innings at max leverage, 100 at something less than that, or 150-170 as a starter.
Last year Whitlock threw 73.1 IP of mostly high leveraged innings. This year's numbers will be skewed because of his time in the rotation, although I could certainly see him pushing over 80 relief innings if rest is managed properly.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Last year Whitlock threw 73.1 IP of mostly high leveraged innings. This year's numbers will be skewed because of his time in the rotation, although I could certainly see him pushing over 80 relief innings if rest is managed properly.

Not really- his leverage index was pretty low, since he started off the year in low lev spots. 34% of his innings were high lev. That being said he was so good that his bWAR was higher than Pivetta who threw 2x as many innings. So there could certainly be an argument that an elite reliever is better than an average starter. It really all comes down to what kind of starter he would be, and who knows? Some guys are more suited to relieving than starting- Papelbon, Bard, and Uehara are a few who come to mind- although they all started at points in time.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think it is. If he's a middle of the road rotation guy, hasn't Bloom had pretty decent success finding a number 3,4,5 starter type since he's been here? Shouldn't we realistically think he could find what Whitlock would provide in the rotation? I'm not sure pitchers who provide sub 2 ERA's in high leverage situations out of the bullpen grow on trees. If Whitlock could provide the 170+ innings you suggest, it's a different story and one that should be a pretty easy answer which is yes start him. But, he hasn't thrown more than 120.2 IP in any professional season in his career and the 120.2 IP season was 4 years ago. Since then he's pitched 70 in '19, 0 in '20, 73.1 in '21, and 55.2 so far this year between AAA and Boston. If for the next couple seasons he's going to be a 100-120 IP guy at most, then I choose him coming out of the bullpen and giving multiple innings a few times a week.
I'm not convinced he's a middle of the road starter, though, because the sample size of him starting is too small to draw conclusions. I'd rather see him given a shot to be a full time starter for a year and see how it goes, and I think the Sox feel the same. I think that was their goal this year, to ramp up his innings count from the 80ish (including post-season) he threw last year to 120 or so this year. Cora said as much in the spring. Going from 80 to 120 to 160+ isn't an unusual or arduous progression, and I think that's the track the Sox wanted him on. The IL trip and other roster circumstances might slow that down. Now it might have to be 80 to 100 to 150, assuming they put him back in the rotation.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not convinced he's a middle of the road starter, though, because the sample size of him starting is too small to draw conclusions. I'd rather see him given a shot to be a full time starter for a year and see how it goes, and I think the Sox feel the same. I think that was their goal this year, to ramp up his innings count from the 80ish (including post-season) he threw last year to 120 or so this year. Cora said as much in the spring. Going from 80 to 120 to 160+ isn't an unusual or arduous progression, and I think that's the track the Sox wanted him on. The IL trip and other roster circumstances might slow that down. Now it might have to be 80 to 100 to 150, assuming they put him back in the rotation.
It's just a different era though. 39 pitchers had 160+ IP last year. The Sox had 1. They had 2 in the 150's, so the 160 cut off didn't do you favors. 56 had 150+.

Nowadays pitchers go 5 innings a start, so to get to 160+ innings, they need to start 32 games. Of course, relievers aren't getting close to 100 ip unless they've made a handful of starts either.
 

Daniel_Son

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I'm not convinced he's a middle of the road starter, though, because the sample size of him starting is too small to draw conclusions. I'd rather see him given a shot to be a full time starter for a year and see how it goes, and I think the Sox feel the same. I think that was their goal this year, to ramp up his innings count from the 80ish (including post-season) he threw last year to 120 or so this year. Cora said as much in the spring. Going from 80 to 120 to 160+ isn't an unusual or arduous progression, and I think that's the track the Sox wanted him on. The IL trip and other roster circumstances might slow that down. Now it might have to be 80 to 100 to 150, assuming they put him back in the rotation.
I guess if they're of the belief that the season is over (which I don't agree with), the best course of action would be to give him a couple months of regular rotation starts and see how he does to finish out the year.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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It's just a different era though. 39 pitchers had 160+ IP last year. The Sox had 1. They had 2 in the 150's, so the 160 cut off didn't do you favors. 56 had 150+.

Nowadays pitchers go 5 innings a start, so to get to 160+ innings, they need to start 32 games. Of course, relievers aren't getting close to 100 ip unless they've made a handful of starts either.
You don't think that last year was a bit of an aberration after the COVID-shortened 2020?

In 2019, 67 pitchers threw 160+ innings (76 topped 150)
In 2018, 62 pitchers threw 160+ innings (79 topped 150)
In 2017, 61 pitchers threw 160+ innings (76 topped 150)

There are 69 pitchers with 90+ innings already this year, which is the pace for 160 innings if we're using 32 x 5 innings as the guide (most pitchers are at 18 starts right now). It certainly appears that we're returning to pre-COVID numbers.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I guess if they're of the belief that the season is over (which I don't agree with), the best course of action would be to give him a couple months of regular rotation starts and see how he does to finish out the year.
To be clear, I don't think the season is over though I'd still be in favor of putting Whitlock back in the rotation sooner rather than later. However, I feel my point holds even if he stays in the pen for this season and joins the rotation in 2023.
 

Cesar Crespo

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You don't think that last year was a bit of an aberration after the COVID-shortened 2020?

In 2019, 67 pitchers threw 160+ innings (76 topped 150)
In 2018, 62 pitchers threw 160+ innings (79 topped 150)
In 2017, 61 pitchers threw 160+ innings (76 topped 150)

There are 69 pitchers with 90+ innings already this year, which is the pace for 160 innings if we're using 32 x 5 innings as the guide (most pitchers are at 18 starts right now). It certainly appears that we're returning to pre-COVID numbers.
Fair, I still wouldn't feel comfortable writing Whitlock in for 160+ innings but I guess some of that depends on how many innings he finishes with this year.
 

cantor44

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Dalbec hit the cover off the ball the last few months of the season and Casas was right around the corner. So it is less about what else he could have done and more how what he did do made sense at the time.
I can see Bloom standing pat at first base for the reasons you point out; but that doesn't address the gaping holes he left in the outfield, filling out a rotation with broken misfit toys and a relief staff largely of fliers.

I was thinking about the outfield he inherited and what the outfield has become. Even if Betts departure was inevitable no matter how much they were willing to pay him, it still feels like an indictment of Bloom's work. From Benintendi, 21-HR JBJ, Betts, to Verdugo, Duran, Refsynder/Cordero/Much diminished JBJ ... acquired and then passed up Renfroe and Schwarber ..what, exactly, is he doing? Whatever the plan, the outfield has become significantly worse.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I don’t know. The injury to Sale pending outcome is key. Without him, the rotation is competitive- as both ‘18 and ‘21 have proven but it requires Eovaldi to pitch like an ace (shouldn’t be expected) and for Pivetta to look like he did between starts 4-12. Maybe Paxton looks great in his… 3?4? Starts?
I was hoping for some luck to hang in long enough for Sale to return to then make a run…. Sneak in as a 2nd or 3rd WC team and then do some damage. His injury completely obliterates that.
Pending that decision I’d start leaning towards a sell-off: Vazquez, Eovaldi and JDM being the main parts to go.
 

Daniel_Son

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I don’t know. The injury to Sale pending outcome is key. Without him, the rotation is competitive- as both ‘18 and ‘21 have proven but it requires Eovaldi to pitch like an ace (shouldn’t be expected) and for Pivetta to look like he did between starts 4-12. Maybe Paxton looks great in his… 3?4? Starts?
I was hoping for some luck to hang in long enough for Sale to return to then make a run…. Sneak in as a 2nd or 3rd WC team and then do some damage. His injury completely obliterates that.
Pending that decision I’d start leaning towards a sell-off: Vazquez, Eovaldi and JDM being the main parts to go.
The team was pretty good in May/June without Sale. Obviously the injury sucks, but is there any reason to think they can't get back to that level?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I guess I'm not seeing the Sale injury as the game changer that others do. The key is more the rest of the roster getting healthy (Wacha, Hill, Kike, Story, etc). They were a .540 team before Sale returned. If they can get back to a reasonably healthy version of the May/June roster, that's a squad that can be competitive through the end of the season. The fate of the season doesn't rest on Sale's diagnosis alone.

Or what Daniel_Son said.
 

scottyno

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Ok.

Benintendi’s WAR by year:
2.8, 4.8, 1.8, -0.1, 2.4, 2.3*

His dWAR over tine
0.6, 0.4, -0.5, 0.2, 0.3, -0.2*
*2022 STD

The difference between AB and JBJ this year is ~3 wins. AB also makes a lot less money. (Hell, the difference in JbJ and Renfroe is 2.5 wins).

I think they panicked and sold low on Benintendi. I’m skeptical of Winckowski’s ability to be terribly useful because he doesn’t strike enough guys out. But we shall see.
If Benintendi put up 1.8 war in his last full season, and then 2.4 in his first full season with the Royals then why is the assumption that they sold low and not that they had a pretty good idea of what he was and were confident they could replace that production in free agency (which they did for less money) and add some prospects at the same time?

I guess you can try and blame the Sox for not realizing that 2 years after being traded AB would completely change his size and approach and become a much better player, babip regression pending anyway, but that seems a bit harsh to the Sox.
 

E5 Yaz

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I guess I'm not seeing the Sale injury as the game changer that others do. The key is more the rest of the roster getting healthy (Wacha, Hill, Kike, Story, etc). They were a .540 team before Sale returned. If they can get back to a reasonably healthy version of the May/June roster, that's a squad that can be competitive through the end of the season. The fate of the season doesn't rest on Sale's diagnosis alone.
While I agree, PeteAbe does not

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/07/17/sports/how-much-more-adversity-can-this-beaten-down-team-survive/
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Their opposition during their hot streak wasn't the opposition in their current stink streak. Perhaps that tells something about the quality of this team?
Perhaps, but the team that had that hot streak isn't exactly the same as the one playing in their current "stink streak" either, thanks to injuries. Bit of a chicken/egg thing.

I mean, I'd love to see a re-do of the last two weeks just with a healthy Whitlock, Wacha, Hill, and Eovaldi in the rotation instead of having to repeatedly use Bello, Seabold, Crawford, and Winckowski. Might it have gone differently? I'd like to think so.
 

BigSoxFan

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I can see Bloom standing pat at first base for the reasons you point out; but that doesn't address the gaping holes he left in the outfield, filling out a rotation with broken misfit toys and a relief staff largely of fliers.

I was thinking about the outfield he inherited and what the outfield has become. Even if Betts departure was inevitable no matter how much they were willing to pay him, it still feels like an indictment of Bloom's work. From Benintendi, 21-HR JBJ, Betts, to Verdugo, Duran, Refsynder/Cordero/Much diminished JBJ ... acquired and then passed up Renfroe and Schwarber ..what, exactly, is he doing? Whatever the plan, the outfield has become significantly worse.
Regardless of how much blame one wants to assign to Bloom for the OF, it is a real problem area for the team. Verdugo’s slugging has materially diminished every year in Boston. Duran looks like a AAAA player to me. JBJ is cooked but, whatever, he was always just filler. Kike is a pending FA and sucked before he got hurt. There isn’t anyone in the farm who’s remotely close. Rafaela is probably at least a year away and probably isn’t an every day starter anyways. If there is a trade to be made this deadline, I hope we get someone we can at least dream on for the OF for 2023 and beyond.
 

scottyno

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I can see Bloom standing pat at first base for the reasons you point out; but that doesn't address the gaping holes he left in the outfield, filling out a rotation with broken misfit toys and a relief staff largely of fliers.

I was thinking about the outfield he inherited and what the outfield has become. Even if Betts departure was inevitable no matter how much they were willing to pay him, it still feels like an indictment of Bloom's work. From Benintendi, 21-HR JBJ, Betts, to Verdugo, Duran, Refsynder/Cordero/Much diminished JBJ ... acquired and then passed up Renfroe and Schwarber ..what, exactly, is he doing? Whatever the plan, the outfield has become significantly worse.
He had a very good outfield last year for something like $10m total, so not sure how it's an indictment of Bloom's work that Verdugo seems to have gotten worse overnight both with the bat and the glove and that Kike got hurt which messed up their plans for right field because it almost forced Jackie into the lineup no matter how bad his bad was.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Perhaps, but the team that had that hot streak isn't exactly the same as the one playing in their current "stink streak" either, thanks to injuries. Bit of a chicken/egg thing.

I mean, I'd love to see a re-do of the last two weeks just with a healthy Whitlock, Wacha, Hill, and Eovaldi in the rotation instead of having to repeatedly use Bello, Seabold, Crawford, and Winckowski. Might it have gone differently? I'd like to think so.
If our brain trust is going to build a rotation around pitchers with significant injuries histories, we should not be surprised when several of them end up out of action. It's nice to say "things might have gone differently if," but Bloom took a risk with these guys and the risk has blown up in its face.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Exactly, and I am sure that the Rays would have liked to have had Wander Franco, Shane Baz, Manuel Margot, Shane Baz, JP Feyereisen, Mike Zunino, and Andrew Kittredge available in the series against the Sox.
 

VORP Speed

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Exactly, and I am sure that the Rays would have liked to have had Wander Franco, Shane Baz, Manuel Margot, Shane Baz, JP Feyereisen, Mike Zunino, and Andrew Kittredge available in the series against the Sox.
And Brandon Lowe and Tyler Glasnow and Yonny Chirinos and Nick Anderson and Brendan McKay and JT Chargois and Pete Fairbanks

Edit: And Luis Patiño!
 

scottyno

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If our brain trust is going to build a rotation around pitchers with significant injuries histories, we should not be surprised when several of them end up out of action. It's nice to say "things might have gone differently if," but Bloom took a risk with these guys and the risk has blown up in its face.
By several you mean that they had an entire above average starting rotation all hurt at once right? And none of those guys besides Sale had a significant injury last season.

Having several hurt over the course of the season, even if they all ended up hurt at some point, just not all at the same time, would have been easy to cover for.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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The team was pretty good in May/June without Sale. Obviously the injury sucks, but is there any reason to think they can't get back to that level?
I think it'd take a lot of good luck to be honest. Pivetta was pitching above his head. While I don't think he's as bad as he's looked the last 2.5 games or as bad as his first 4 games, I also don't think he's as good as he was in the games in between. He's tremendously valuable as he's likely going to be able to consistently hit 200 innings at around a 4.2 ERA with some great stretches and some shitty stretches. Eovaldi will need to return and pitch like we hope Sale should. Generally they need a lot of good luck and I think more than other teams. Counting on Sale to be Chris Sale might be folly but the team put $30M on it and have to continue to play that card. Despite what others want here.... there's no way to "plan for Sale to be out". And, in fact, I think Bloom did, with Hill and it worked out as well as possible and things were lining up- Sale was coming back just as Hill went down. Now if Sale can't come back for the rest of the season, I think it's foolish to expect Hill and Wacha to pitch as well as they have or to expect Pivetta to do that. Or expect Paxton to be a savior.
The general plan for what I could tell, after Sale went down... was to hang in as long as possible until the end of June and be within a few games of a Wild Card. Great. They did that and it was, despite some terrible play and some horrible streaks, some impressive play above expectations to me. Things were looking good despite injuries to half the team but with the injury to Sale it really broke the plan (more like Plan C) down. They're now looking at Plan D- which to me should seriously consider selling off half the team. I would NOT deal Devers or X though despite the fact that they could net a great return. Those two need to somehow in some way be on the team for the next 5 years at least.

Plan A- Of course... no injuries. Every team has to look at the start of the season like this. Every player who is healthy through the prior season that didn't need offseason surgery should be in the plan and built around.

Plan B- Assume that injury prone players- especially your stars- may likely be out. That's Chris Sale and Eovaldi. Despite what others here think, Bloom did a great job in this department. Wacha may have been ERod's replacement, but Hill and the AAA guys have filled in nicely for Sale and Eovaldi up to a point.

Plan C- Your star players underperform. Up for debate, but JDM, Story and X are all there underperforming to me... your hope is that role players step it up. Didn't happen other than Vazquez. This is the one area I do think Bloom did a poor job. I don't know why but JBJ should have been a defensive back up and that's that. First base is a mess and I do think that Bloom could have and should have signed Schwarber and I don't see how Story would not have been able to been signed also. Bloom made some questionable moves that didn't cost much but in aggregate were more than Schwarber's money. Basically Plan C to me is hope for the best. They hit this point and it's falling apart due to luck and injuries and poor management.

Plan D- Blow it up with some sense of the future. JDM, Eovaldi, Vazquez all should be dealt IMO.
 

Apisith

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It feels bleak to me right not only because of Sale’s injury but because Pivetta’s and Eovaldi’s fastball velocity are both down ~2mph in the last few starts. They are both being hit hard right now. Wacha was good albeit lucky before his injury, and Hill was a serviceable starter. So right now, the rotation does not have a single reliable starter. Because of Pivetta’s and Eovaldi’s issues, I probably trust Crawford more than anyone else because he was effective against both the Yankees and the Rays.

Hopefully Pivetta and Eovaldi come out of the break healthy. This is the key, for me.
 

Rovin Romine

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https://www.foxsports.com/mlb/chris-sale-player-injuries

The biggest gripe with the extension is that he was hurt when he signed it and hasn’t been the same pitcher since the injury down the stretch in the championship year, no?
I ask again. How was Chris Sale "injury prone" prior to this year?

Like, to the extent he was more injury prone than Eovaldi or Whitlock?


***
But to answer your question, no.

The Chris Sale Made of Glass (SOSH TM) meme is complete mouth-breathing horseshit.

For those of you too lazy to look shit up, but not to lazy to opine, this is what the facts say:
Chris Sale, Boston career (no prior injuries of note.)​
2017 - 32 starts, 5.9 WAR. Lead the league in IP.​
2018 - 27 starts, 6.5 WAR. Shoulder issue where he was out for roughly a month and a half at the end of the year. There was no need to rush him since the club was playing, I don't know, kind of moderately acceptable ball at the time. Came back for some Sept. games and started and relieved in the post-season.​
March 22, 2019 - Signs a 5 year contract extension for ages 31-36, avoiding free agency at the end of 2019.​
Just like people are clamoring for right now re: Boegarts, Devers, the bat boy, etc. Staff at the time is E-Rod, a soon to be injured Eovaldi, a soon-to-be-mediocre Price, and Bi-Polar Porcello.​
Will the shoulder hold up as the Sox medical staff hope it will? Yes.​
2019 - Sale pitches into August (25 starts) with no shoulder trouble before missing a month and a half with an elbow issue that eventually proved to be a TJ, taking him out for rehab then the normal and expected TJ surgery time. (Sox are 17 games behind NYY at this point, and aprox. 8 games out of WC1 behind 3 teams, which is pretty much were they finish.)​
2020 - Lost year. Good time to be rehabbing.​
2021 - Returns in the normal course from TJ surgery. Makes 9 starts and goes 5-1 in Aug./Sept./Oct. 3 post-season starts.​
2022 - Injured rib during (spring) training.​
2022 - He had his throwing hand pinkie near snapped-off by a 100mph come-backer, which any manly-man would have just caught with his teeth.​
Then there's Scar Tissue Eovaldi, who got his second TJ in 2016, got signed to a 4 year contract in 2019 (just like Sale), was out from April to July in 2019 (elbow!), and has thusfar missed 37 days this year (back).​
There's Snaps-Like-A-Twig Whitlock who got TJ in 2019, has been on the IL twice this year (pectoral, hip) for 49 days, and was just given a 4 year extension.​
This public service announcement, which has chewed up all my goof-off time today, has been brought to you by "No, I was not too fucking bitter or lazy to look it up Romine."
 

Archer1979

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2018 - 27 starts, 6.5 WAR. Shoulder issue where he was out for roughly a month and a half at the end of the year. There was no need to rush him since the club was playing, I don't know, kind of moderately acceptable ball at the time. Came back for some Sept. games and started and relieved in the post-season

To bolded, this is the line of demarcation between the Chris Sale we traded for and the Chris Sale we have now. He wasn't the same in the post-season of 2018 but we were all too busy covering our eyes and cringing at Craig Kimbrel to harp on it. It's also why there was so much hand-wringing at the contract extension that DD gave him. Granted there is no way to foresee that a broken rib and a broken finger were going to sideline him for pretty much the entire year, but him going down for TJ surgery was anything but a surprise.
 

Sox Puppet

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Well, yes, and fracturing one's rib in Spring Training is not exactly a common injury for pitchers. For better or worse, that sort of thing contributes to the impression of Sale being "made of glass."

I ask again. How was Chris Sale "injury prone" prior to this year?

Like, to the extent he was more injury prone than Eovaldi or Whitlock?
This is a fair question, especially in comparison to Eovaldi, who's been injured just as often as Sale but isn't thought of in the same way.

Eovaldi bought a lot of good will and reputation for toughness with his performance in the 2018 World Series, in which "he literally gave everything he had on every single pitch." That's the Eovaldi we still remember. And he put up a pretty great season last year, amidst all of his other injuries.

Sale, meanwhile, is still the petulant overreactor who throws tantrums and breaks things in locker rooms (he seemingly hasn't evolved from his uniform cutting days with CWS), and people are understandably frustrated that his vax status might keep him out for yet another reason. When they say Sale is "made of glass," I think people are also conflating his apparent psychological frailty with his physical injuries.
 
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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I don't think comparing them (Eo and Sale) is what I was intending to do at all.... both of them have red flags. Sale however costs the team $30M per season and Eovaldi only $18M. That's something. Maybe stupid something... but it's not nothing.
But otherwise.. yeah... both have red flags and both were questionable to extend. Eovaldi, to me, has over performed expectations while Sale has underperformed. But at their contracts, one was worth taking a chance on while perhaps the other wasn't so much... and I don't think it's with hindsight that I say this either.
Eovaldi is closer to Paxton's contract than Sale's.
For me, the personalities have little to do with it. And even despite all the red flags... one of those two pitchers will fetch a great return in a trade, the other won't. I don't think I have to post spoilers.
 

cantor44

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He had a very good outfield last year for something like $10m total, so not sure how it's an indictment of Bloom's work that Verdugo seems to have gotten worse overnight both with the bat and the glove and that Kike got hurt which messed up their plans for right field because it almost forced Jackie into the lineup no matter how bad his bad was.
Yes, I think you're right the picture is more nuanced than I articulated. But there are qualifiers to your qualifiers: Kiké was brought in as a super utility player - primarily to play second - and it was an accident of circumstance, and his career year performance, that he became the regular center fielder. He's been hurt, but it was also predictable that he might regress to the mean this year. Verdugo is a career .766 OPS hitter (104 OPS+) - while he's a tick down, his numbers don't suggest he collapsed or anything, they're in the ballpark of his mean.

That is - even with a less blunt take than I offered, the outfield is still unequivocally worse than when Bloom took over.

Bloom has built this team on players with potential - young guys that may improve like Cordero, and older guys who've been hurt, who might see a return to form - like Wacha. The only blue chip player in his prime he's acquired and signed is Story (and even there, Story, as a hitter, is likely past his prime). And Story likely is an Xander replacement, another step down.

So, eventually, Bloom's gotta get some all-star caliber players who are healthy and in their prime ...or the team will keep getting worse.
 

cantor44

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I ask again. How was Chris Sale "injury prone" prior to this year?

Like, to the extent he was more injury prone than Eovaldi or Whitlock?


***
But to answer your question, no.

The Chris Sale Made of Glass (SOSH TM) meme is complete mouth-breathing horseshit.

For those of you too lazy to look shit up, but not to lazy to opine, this is what the facts say:
Chris Sale, Boston career (no prior injuries of note.)​
2017 - 32 starts, 5.9 WAR. Lead the league in IP.​
2018 - 27 starts, 6.5 WAR. Shoulder issue where he was out for roughly a month and a half at the end of the year. There was no need to rush him since the club was playing, I don't know, kind of moderately acceptable ball at the time. Came back for some Sept. games and started and relieved in the post-season.​
March 22, 2019 - Signs a 5 year contract extension for ages 31-36, avoiding free agency at the end of 2019.​
Just like people are clamoring for right now re: Boegarts, Devers, the bat boy, etc. Staff at the time is E-Rod, a soon to be injured Eovaldi, a soon-to-be-mediocre Price, and Bi-Polar Porcello.​
Will the shoulder hold up as the Sox medical staff hope it will? Yes.​
2019 - Sale pitches into August (25 starts) with no shoulder trouble before missing a month and a half with an elbow issue that eventually proved to be a TJ, taking him out for rehab then the normal and expected TJ surgery time. (Sox are 17 games behind NYY at this point, and aprox. 8 games out of WC1 behind 3 teams, which is pretty much were they finish.)​
2020 - Lost year. Good time to be rehabbing.​
2021 - Returns in the normal course from TJ surgery. Makes 9 starts and goes 5-1 in Aug./Sept./Oct. 3 post-season starts.​
2022 - Injured rib during (spring) training.​
2022 - He had his throwing hand pinkie near snapped-off by a 100mph come-backer, which any manly-man would have just caught with his teeth.​
Then there's Scar Tissue Eovaldi, who got his second TJ in 2016, got signed to a 4 year contract in 2019 (just like Sale), was out from April to July in 2019 (elbow!), and has thusfar missed 37 days this year (back).​
There's Snaps-Like-A-Twig Whitlock who got TJ in 2019, has been on the IL twice this year (pectoral, hip) for 49 days, and was just given a 4 year extension.​
This public service announcement, which has chewed up all my goof-off time today, has been brought to you by "No, I was not too fucking bitter or lazy to look it up Romine."
Yes, but Sale often faded at the end of seasons. And the shoulder injury in 2018 should have been a yellow flag for the team. They had to protect him in the post season to some extent (and kudos to him for bringing it, when it wasn't 100%). The prudent thing would have been for them to see how he performed in 2019 before offering the extension - they had him for another year on a team favorable contract - there was no rush, ESPECIALLY considering a Betts extension was looming.
 

Ganthem

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Yes, I think you're right the picture is more nuanced than I articulated. But there are qualifiers to your qualifiers: Kiké was brought in as a super utility player - primarily to play second - and it was an accident of circumstance, and his career year performance, that he became the regular center fielder. He's been hurt, but it was also predictable that he might regress to the mean this year. Verdugo is a career .766 OPS hitter (104 OPS+) - while he's a tick down, his numbers don't suggest he collapsed or anything, they're in the ballpark of his mean.

That is - even with a less blunt take than I offered, the outfield is still unequivocally worse than when Bloom took over.

Bloom has built this team on players with potential - young guys that may improve like Cordero, and older guys who've been hurt, who might see a return to form - like Wacha. The only blue chip player in his prime he's acquired and signed is Story (and even there, Story, as a hitter, is likely past his prime). And Story likely is an Xander replacement, another step down.

So, eventually, Bloom's gotta get some all-star caliber players who are healthy and in their prime ...or the team will keep getting worse.
How was Kike regressing predicatable when the last time he had an ops under 700 was in 2020? Based on what Kike has done throughout his career what was more predictable was Kike continue to be an average to above average bat. As for Verdugo it is impossible to fill a lineup with 800 ops players. Verdugo definetly had/has upside prior to this season, but if he ends up with a 766 ops that is not only good, but it should also assure him a spot for next year. Further Verdugo has put up a 116 wrcplus since June. There was no reason to look at an outfield of Verdugo, Kike, Bradley/JDM with Duran in the minors and think that improvement was needed.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Huh? The “last season with an OPS under
700 was 2020”? So, the season before last? Kike’s a career .737 ops guy; with seasons ranging from .607 to .836. He’s a solid enough player but his performance has been all over the place. He’s had seven seasons with 200+ plate appearances and put up the following OPS: 836, 607, 729, 806, 715, 786, and now 613.
 

sezwho

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....
So, eventually, Bloom's gotta get some all-star caliber players who are healthy and in their prime ...or the team will keep getting worse.
Not to be too glib, but this really depends upon what you mean by 'get some'.

If get = developing/trading for young players that become all-star caliber, then sure. If "get" means pay free market prices for young all stars then I'm really not sure this is true. (I was looking for a Bloom off the rose pun but couldn't get there. Damn). Not saying I want this, or even that its most probable, but its still possible they sign neither Xander nor Devers, and have a wholly different approach that will take 3-4 years to play out. Then maybe your 'eventual' plays out and they sign Tier 1 talent.

They are competitive(ish) now, and look what Bloom did w/ parsimonious shopping for pitchers last off-season.