Sounds like John Lackey's tutoring of Jon Lester during the chicken and beer season has stayed with him.
Red Sox Rumors - Just Kidding
- Thread starter jcormjmac
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Would signing Corey Kluber be that bad? He had a solid year.
Since we’re reportedly chasing two of them, what’s the range of #2 starters these days? Eovaldi and Senga would count, maybe Kluber (3.0 fWAR) by some definitions.
For trade, that’d be what: Pablo López, Trevor Rogers, Brady Singer, Tarik Skubal, Jack Flaherty, Lucas Giolito, German Márquez? Are Cease and Bieber too high?
Before we continue the Lester trashing, can someone link to an article where Lester's been "dissing" the Red Sox?
Because, after admitting he understood the business of his own free agency, here's what he said in July about Bogaerts and Devers:
Because, after admitting he understood the business of his own free agency, here's what he said in July about Bogaerts and Devers:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/jon-lester-speaks-xander-bogaerts-and-rafael-devers-contract-situations
Not picking on you, but we’re a long way from ‘he spoke with X about playing for the cubs’…I mean that’s not exactly high crimes.
For all we know given Ross and Napoli have vested interests in recruiting X, he was reaching out to Lester for his experiences having played for both franchises, as a possibly more independent source. The tweet didn't say Lester was "recruiting" Bogaerts. And Lester himself would probably admit that he's not qualified to make a direct comparison, due to the substantial changes in the Sox leadership since he left.
I don't understand how Kluber had a 3.0 fWAR. Or how Nick Pivetta had a 2.6 bWAR. Is Nick Pivetta a #2 starter?
Kluber is cooked. He was solid in the first half and got absolutely shelled in the second half. Kluber's average fastball:
- 2020: 91.7
- 2021: 90.6
- 2022: 88.9
Kluber will be 37 next season. If Kluber is the #2 SP that the beat reporters are all suggesting we'll sign, I'm about ready to get the pitchforks out.
His average four-seamer fastball is 88.9, which is why he only threw 36 of them last year. He’s purely a junk ball artist now, but even without a fastball he has impeccable command. I wouldn’t call him a #2 starter these days, but I definitely don’t think he’s cooked.
His 2022 looked unlucky. He did a nice job of limiting hard contact (13th-lowest of 140 starting pitchers with 100+ IP, right next to Sandy Alcantara), yet he still came away with a .317 BABIP, which was the 20th highest among those same 140 starters.
He also, somehow, has the third-highest chase rate of pitches out of the zone (38.8%, trailing only Gausman and Tyler Anderson).
Pitching fWAR and bWAR can be goofy, and Kluber certainly ain’t what he used to be. But I’m also not seeing a ton of evidence he was worse the second half.
Mar/Apr: .332 expected wOBA against
May: .336
June: .261
July: .323
Aug: .326
Sept/Oct: .286
Not my first choice, but I’d certainly take him at that Fangraphs crowdsourced contract of 1/$11M.
From Julian McWilliams of the Boston Globe:
As for relievers, according to multiple industry sources, righthander Tommy Kahnle has drawn Sox interest. Though he missed four months with a bone bruise in his elbow and was limited to 13 appearances after missing nearly all of 2020 and 2021 following Tommy John surgery, Kahnle finished the year with the Dodgers by allowing one run over 8⅔ innings with nine strikeouts and one walk.
As for relievers, according to multiple industry sources, righthander Tommy Kahnle has drawn Sox interest. Though he missed four months with a bone bruise in his elbow and was limited to 13 appearances after missing nearly all of 2020 and 2021 following Tommy John surgery, Kahnle finished the year with the Dodgers by allowing one run over 8⅔ innings with nine strikeouts and one walk.
Since we have no idea who initiated any discussion between Bogaerts and Lester is it that far fetched to think that Bogaerts was the one reaching out? After all, the two aren't strangers having been teammates in 2013 and 2014.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2022-12-05/padres-trea-turner-phillies-free-agent-shortstop-first-base-left-field-starting-pitcher
Boras strikes again!
What team will Boras “leak” as being heavily interested in Xander tomorrow?
Cooler heads... going to repeat that slowly to myself as the various suitors rise and fall over the next week or so.
The Cubs are going to sign Bogaerts, Swanson, and Correa, and move Hoerner to CF!!!
Don’t worry, Kike and Story will close the deal with Tommy Kahlne.
View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1599918362586664961?s=46&t=6TVUECIa6gYwg3NN0uAvsg
View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1599918362586664961?s=46&t=6TVUECIa6gYwg3NN0uAvsg
Sure would be nice if one of our home grown favorites who's been here a long time were helping with that effort.
Kahnle is a big clubhouse guy, from what I’ve read. (I’m also dimly remembering some bad clubhouse stuff from years ago, but I could be thinking of someone else.)
He’s also apparently great buds with Chad Green. Would not mind snagging them both.
Green had TJS in June, not sure how much he’ll be able to contribute this year but a two year deal could work.
You're probably thinking of this:
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/latroy-hawkins-calls-tommy-kahnle-worst-teammates-article-1.3341508
And a rebuttal from his then teammates:
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/chicago-white-sox/white-sox-players-defend-tommy-kahnle-after-latroy-hawkins-ripped-former-teammate
My impression of Kahnle as a Yankee was pretty great, big game pitcher with fantastic stuff, they only let him go because he had TJS and they didn't want to clog the 40 man while he recovered. I was hoping NY might get him back this winter.
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/chicago-white-sox/white-sox-players-defend-tommy-kahnle-after-latroy-hawkins-ripped-former-teammate
My impression of Kahnle as a Yankee was pretty great, big game pitcher with fantastic stuff, they only let him go because he had TJS and they didn't want to clog the 40 man while he recovered. I was hoping NY might get him back this winter.
The story I read on this is that the plan would be for Xander to play 3B. But Boras recently said "Xander is a shortstop," so I don't think he's anxious to sign somewhere where's he's going to have to change positions immediately. I generally respect Feinsand and his info more than some of the others (cough - Heyman) but this Cubs two-for idea seems farfetched.
That's probably it, though I remember it a little more firm than that. He seems like a big character, which is bound to rub some people the wrong way. This 2018 ESPN story gets into it a little bit, referencing (lightheartedly) how Yankee relievers need an “extreme level of focus” to “put up with Kahnle’s antics.”
This rebuttal suggests he’s just a big weirdo, but it would be more effective if it didn't rely on Derek Holland of all people as a character witness.
While I tend to agree... if you pay Xander like a Shortstop to play Third base he may be more open to the idea... I feel the big reason for Boras to push X as a shortstop is because it's a premium position with premium pay. You make the pay difference go away and thus some of the issue with switching positions might go also.
You must be drinking this:
View: https://twitter.com/joonlee/status/1599906564672225281?s=20&t=XTCewbgxf1cz564nLc_wKw
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Perhaps. But this leaves the pride/ego aspect out of this - I think there's always an element of that at play with star athletes who play that position. So it's possible that it would take a premium over what other teams are offering him to play SS to get him to change positions (especially with Boras). Not impossible, but probably not likely.
And if he didn't bring it in himself, he probably paid $75 for it. I mean, is this what we're looking for in a GM?
I agree there is pride and ego involved with any job and/or job transition. However, you pay me enough and I will scrub porta pottys with a smile. And like I was saying in my original post, you pay Xander what he wants, and he might DH, play LF, 3rd base etc...
Is there really that much of a difference between the top SS contracts and the top 3B contracts?
Biggest current 3B contracts:
Rendon 7/245M (35M AAV)
Arenado 8/260M (32.5M AAV)
Machado 10/300M (30M AAV)
Biggest current SS contracts:
Lindor 10/341M (34.1M AAV)
Seager 10/325M (32.5M AAV)
Turner 11/300M (27.3M AAV)
Tatis Jr 14/340M (24.3M AAV)
Seems like the only significant advantage to being paid "as a SS" is contract length, which probably is only the case because SS tend to be able to move down the defensive spectrum later in their career while still having it be a relatively premium position (like 3B or CF). I suppose age when they signed the deal is also a factor.
I think the impetus behind "I'm a shortstop and want to be a shortstop" is ego more than money.
It's actually a pretty decent table red for the price LOL. You could do a lot worse. They carry it at the neighborhood package store around the corner from my apartment.
As for Kahnle, his 2022 actually gets more impressive if you dig in a bit. He only threw 12 2/3 innings, and allowed four runs on five hits while striking out 14 and walking 3. Even more impressive to me is that the large majority of that offense came in one blowup at Pittsburgh in May, where he allowed two HR and hit a batter. Then he allowed two walks his next outing, and then went on the IL for a few months.
He returned in September and was absolutely nails: 8.2 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 B, 9 K.
Then he had two good postseason outings before the Padres jumped all over him on zero days rest.
I see why they're interested.
As for Kahnle, his 2022 actually gets more impressive if you dig in a bit. He only threw 12 2/3 innings, and allowed four runs on five hits while striking out 14 and walking 3. Even more impressive to me is that the large majority of that offense came in one blowup at Pittsburgh in May, where he allowed two HR and hit a batter. Then he allowed two walks his next outing, and then went on the IL for a few months.
He returned in September and was absolutely nails: 8.2 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 B, 9 K.
Then he had two good postseason outings before the Padres jumped all over him on zero days rest.
I see why they're interested.
As an aside, I understand Bloom keeps Kosher so he wouldn't drink that wine. Maybe I'm wrong.
Aside over.
I like the chances of the Sox resigning Bogaerts, especially since teams (mystery or otherwise) keep dropping off.
Looks alot like the last 2years in on everyone but never landing anyone.
Well it kinda goes without saying that the Sox will be in discussions with far more guys than they actually sign. But I hear you - it's frustrating to see good players go elsewhere.
Abreu was given the opportunity to play first base full time and was given a very sweet contract. Eflin wanted to play close to his home and it wouldn't be suprising to find out that Kahnle wanted to go back to the Yankees since he came up with them. It is frustrating as all fuck, but each of these guys have extenuating circumstances.
Bid on Martin... signed him.
Bid on Rodriguez... signed him.
What's your point?
This meme is getting tedious. Is it your recollection that the team has made no free agent signings in the last two years? Because that is not, in fact, true.
Many people on this board (and many more in the broader media and Red Sox internet) have a preconceived notion of Bloom's FO that I don't actually think squares with reality, and the only reason I don't expect these people to be surprised by the rest of the offseason is that I don't think they're likely to acknowledge any events that don't fit the narrative.
Look, Bloom said they're aiming to bring in 7-9 players. Sounds like they've already added two relievers and are looking to add one or two more. Then another SP for the top half of the rotation. That's four. Then a middle infielder, a corner outfielder, a DH, maybe a catcher. 7-8. It sounds like trades are in the works, so we may be opening up a hole or two that we will then fill with new acquisitions. 9.
I'd wait on the assessments until we see how this plan actually pans out.
Hernandez, Renfroe, Whitlock, Story and some lessers. A few decent trades as well.
You guys did better
3 years younger and less $ (and experience with market/media)
This is to put it lightly. Aside from Speier and maybe one or two other exceptions, it's such an embarrassing media sphere in Boston, top to bottom. Even Chad Jennings' most recent piece in the Athletic was ridiculous.
"The Phillies on Monday valued Trea Turner at 11 years and $300 million, and — get this — actually signed the guy! The Mets? They got Justin Verlander. The Rangers? They added Jacob deGrom. The Red Sox, meanwhile, are still waiting to get Chris Martin's contract finalized." This is all along the way to, of course, justify "...pessimism after two last-place finishes in the past three years."
Blaming Bloom for a last-place finish in 2020 is like blaming Obama for the Great Recession.
I'm ready to be mad about how things turn out, but people should just let the goddamn offseason play out.