"Replacing" Ortiz

[NDame616]

So, let's start with the obligatory NO ONE WILL EVER REPLACE DAVID ORTIZ

However, we do have a Papi-sized hole at DH next year that the Sox will have to address.

We have a handful of options.

Should we:
Go after one of the big name free agents: The Toronto guys or Cespedes are probably the most likely to be elite power hitters (yes, Bautista is on a decline, but will probably get some team to overpay)

Sign someone to a short deal: Napoli or Morales (has an option) or someone like that

Trade: Either Martinez in Detroit if they're willing? Joey Votto, who has been mentioned a billion times over the years?

From within: We could of course have a rotating "day off" for guys like Hanley, Sandoval vs RHP, Pedroia to get him off the field a few times a month, etc

(dopes, I thought this was a better place to branch out form the Ortiz retiring thread, so we can beak down actual options)

 

[TheoShmeo]

I chose the first option but it does not accurately capture my view. What I mean is that I do not want a big name free agent for the sake of that. And I don't want Bautista or Cespedes. My choice is Encarnacion. I think he would do very well at Fenway and would pair well with Hanely at 1B/DH. But he will be very expensive and I tend to doubt that I will get my wish.

 

[CarolinaBeerGuy]

I'm worried there may be a PED issue with Encarnacion. His power spiked at age 29 which is a big indicator. He's sustained that power, but power typically decreases in your mid-30's. His strikeouts went way up this year which may mean his eyesight may be declining.

 

[johnnywayback]

I voted the last option because I want Hanley Ramirez to replace Ortiz as the regular DH.

 

[NoXInNixon]

I want Hanley to be the DH 50% of the time, 1B the other 40% of the time. The other 50% of DH is Pedroia, Panda, Swihart et al. The other 60% of first base can be an internal option if they think Shaw can handle the Youk shuffle, or they can pick up a cheap free agent to be part time 1B and big bat off the bench.

 

[HurstSoGood]

Like what @NoXInNixon was getting at: I'd like somebody who can adequately play a defensive position when not DHing.

As GM, I would work from within, if possible. Compared to the flawed (or aging) 2016 bunch, 2017-18 is going to be a Fine Art Auction, in which we will want to pick up a nice little Renoir. And perhaps a Picasso.

 

[brs3]

I don't like the idea of a rotating DH. Chances are good that Hanley Ramirez will not play in 20-25 games in 2017. There's a good chance most of the lineup will not play in 15-25 games each. I can see some minor tweaking of occasional DH duties, but planning to split a role 50/50 or 60/40 or whatever doesn't make any sense if you can avoid it. The last time there was a DH split, Ortiz beat out Jeremy Giambi. That same year Millar & Manny put in time(19 & 26gms) at DH, and both had lower numbers in a SSS. I'd like Hanley or Sandoval to slide into the DH role.

 

[PapaSox]

I picked the last option as I've advocated it on at least one other thread. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority but I rather see the role filled with players resting or looking for some playing time to keep their bats warm. As I said before I think it would be interesting to see Chris Young in the role. I'd give it to Hanley only if he wants it. I think he did well at 1B and he was proud of it.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I'd give it to Hanley only if he wants it. I think he did well at 1B and he was proud of it.

I am failing to find this, but didn't somebody post a quote recently from Hanley saying he was expecting to take Papi's job and wanted no part of 1B next year? Or am I hallucinating?

 

[rembrat]

I am failing to find this, but didn't somebody post a quote recently from Hanley saying he was expecting to take Papi's job and wanted no part of 1B next year? Or am I hallucinating?

That doesn't sound like Hanley at all. Even when he was our LF and doing a poor job of it he never said anything along these lines.

 

[nvalvo]

I am failing to find this, but didn't somebody post a quote recently from Hanley saying he was expecting to take Papi's job and wanted no part of 1B next year? Or am I hallucinating?

There was a quote where he said something like that, but then seemed to notice how he sounded and clarified that of course, that's a decision for Farrell and the front office.

 

[Soxfan in Fla]

There was a quote where he said something like that, but then seemed to notice how he sounded and clarified that of course, that's a decision for Farrell and the front office.

It sounded like he wanted the honor of following in Ortiz footsteps but didn't phrase it very well.

 

[Al Zarilla]

There was a quote where he said something like that, but then seemed to notice how he sounded and clarified that of course, that's a decision for Farrell and the front office.

I also heard him say, probably on NESN, that he really wanted to DH. Maybe he walked it back some, like you say, but the overwhelming message was that he didn't have much interest in playing first again. A bit shocking, why not play one more year at first while the team is figuring out something else. Encarnacion looks decent at first but his dWar has never been good, kind of like Hanley. Who knows if EE is being considered tho.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I also heard him say, probably on NESN, that he really wanted to DH. Maybe he walked it back some, like you say, but the overwhelming message was that he didn't have much interest in playing first again. A bit shocking, why not play one more year at first while the team is figuring out something else. Encarnacion looks decent at first but his dWar has never been good, kind of like Hanley. Who knows if EE is being considered tho.

He basically said " Yeah, I'd love to DH, but I'll do whatever the team asks of me." I don't think there's much to read into it.

 

[Dewey'sCannon]

I voted replace from within. I think they'll at least look into EE, but I suspect he'll be too pricey, esp in terms of contract length, to make that work.

 

[Soxfan in Fla]

I voted replace from within. I think they'll at least look into EE, but I suspect he'll be too pricey, esp in terms of contract length, to make that work.

I think EE will get upwards of 6/150 based on Davis' contract. Let somebody else pay that.

 

[bankshot1]

The Hanley/Panda/Shaw merry-go-round at 1st-3rd-DH seems to make some sense. It maintains fnancial and positional flexibility and also leaves room for Moncada if he learns to hit a breaking pitch.

 

[MikeM]

I like the short term deal fix here since EE is going to cost more then I'd want to pay for his age 34-38+ years, and going from within is just setting up the probability that we'll need to trade valuable assets latter instead of simply spending the cash now.

Planning on guys like Pablo or Shaw to be part of the Papi solution here seems pretty silly too imo. Those two should have one job only heading into 2017....trying not to suck too bad at 3B until Moncada is ready. You don't worry about where they slot in after the fact, much less pencil them in as offensive solutions in the 2017 plan of attack.

 

[Al Zarilla]

He basically said " Yeah, I'd love to DH, but I'll do whatever the team asks of me." I don't think there's much to read into it.

It was stronger than that, something like "why would I want to do that again" (play first base). I remember being kind of shocked by what he said. Can't produce a link so, that's it.

 

[timlinin8th]

It was stronger than that, something like "why would I want to do that again" (play first base). I remember being kind of shocked by what he said. Can't produce a link so, that's it.

I remember seeing the article you are talking about... I forget which of our esteemed baseball scribes wrote it but it piggybacks off the quote at the end of this article, a quote that was made before the season ever began (and presented the quote like it was made mid-season and made it sound like the "I'll do whatever the team asks of me" was made sheepishly and thrown in at the end)

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/14632897/hanley-ramirez-boston-red-sox-says-ready-play-1b-even-eyes-dh-spot

"Hell, yeah," Ramirez said. "When you've got two things to do, play defense and offense (versus) just sitting in the dugout . it's a little different."

Until then, he will play wherever he is needed.

"Like I always say, whatever they say that I can help this team to win, I'll do it," Ramirez said. "I'm just here to win."

 

[grimshaw]

I can't even name the best full time DH's in history after Edgar and Papi. It's so rarely a huge asset (more than 3-4 Win guys with the built in positional penalty aren't flush) since guys generally want to play the field during their prime, and/or aren't worth the investment after they can no longer play the field. To me, it's the best position to punt and use that money elsewhere unless it's slowly declining hall of fame talent like a 35 year old Miguel Cabrera or Joey Votto who are at peace with sitting on the bench.

A guy like Beltran could drop off a cliff, and a guy like EE or Joey Bats is unlikely to earn his contract after the first 2-3 years. I'm still passing on those options

I want a rotating slot with some Hanley, mixed in with guys needing breathers or who are nicked up but healthy enough to DH. That didn't happen when Ortiz was here obviously, but if it happens in the future, that is an option. It should bring back some of the lost production collectively by keeping guys healthier or taking terrible fielders off the field.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Seems to me that Beltran on a one year deal has very little downside. He could still hit this year.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Beltran's numbers are boosted by the Terlet. His 2016 road split looks like Shaw's home split.

 

[simplicio]

Beltran doesn't do 1b though, right? I'd really like someone who could at least split that Hanley.

Not having a long contract should be a primary goal though- this time next year we may well be looking at the emergence of both Moncada and Devers, along with better FA options.

 

[Just a bit outside]

I would like a low level signing like Seth Smith or Matt Joyce on a one year deal. They can platoon at DH with Young. My issue is that I don't believe Shaw is an everyday player or good platoon option as a DH. That would leave Hanley as the 1B and hoping that Panda can come back and take over 3B.

 

[Devizier]

I would like a low level signing like Seth Smith or Matt Joyce on a one year deal. They can platoon at DH with Young. My issue is that I don't believe Shaw is an everyday player or good platoon option as a DH. That would leave Hanley as the 1B and hoping that Panda can come back and take over 3B.

This is where I'm at. I've thrown out a different set of names but the goal is the same: LH bat that can play the field, won't command a lot. Usable platoon bat.

Sox won't get Ortiz's ~170 wRC+ but they should be able to get 120 without too much difficulty.

 

[foulkehampshire]

Encarnacion would be the only guy worth signing to a long-term contract to fill the void. What he brings to the table offensively and his ability to play 1B fits this team. I don't know if the FO wants to saddle themselves with that kind of contract risk though with Hanley and Sandoval already on the roster. I also wouldn't mind having the roster flexibility of an open DH slot.

Outside of that, signing some platoon guys and rotating position players is probably the way to go. Want no part of Bautista, Trumbo.

3B is more of a concern and I'd really like to see them look at Justin Turner. He's a bit streaky offensively but is a versatile defender who is can sub at multiple positions all over the field. Has an interesting reverse split and hits RHP well, which would pair nicely with LHP split guys like Pedroia, Young, Ramirez, and Bogaerts.

 

[foulkehampshire]

I think EE will get upwards of 6/150 based on Davis' contract. Let somebody else pay that.

Given a somewhat lengthy injury history, age, and subpar defensive skills on the field I have a hard time envisioning that kind of contract for a guy that's going to see some 300+ AB's at DH out of necessity. Maybe some sucker NL team into a large contract as a 1B ala Thome, but I don't see it happening.

I'm thinking 4/90, 5/100. I don't think he leaves the AL.

 

[Buckner's Boots]

After the MCL injury, with his age 24 season coming up, what do people see as a reasonable timetable for Sam Travis to figure into the discussion? Or will he?

 

[MikeM]

Given a somewhat lengthy injury history, age, and subpar defensive skills on the field I have a hard time envisioning that kind of contract for a guy that's going to see some 300+ AB's at DH out of necessity. Maybe some sucker NL team into a large contract as a 1B ala Thome, but I don't see it happening.


I'm thinking 4/90, 5/100. I don't think he leaves the AL.

I think the lack of alternative options this winter for teams looking to upgrade and willing to spend big $$$ factors in there too.

At minimum he's definitely getting his $100m imo. How that ends up shaking out in years is debatable, but in free agency reality terms 5/$125m strikes me as what should be the more conservative "gets it done" guess in a competitive market.

 

[simplicio]

3B is more of a concern and I'd really like to see them look at Justin Turner. He's a bit streaky offensively but is a versatile defender who is can sub at multiple positions all over the field. Has an interesting reverse split and hits RHP well, which would pair nicely with LHP split guys like Pedroia, Young, Ramirez, and Bogaerts.

Turner is 31 and looks like the best 3b available on the FA market. He's going to cost a lot more in money and years than a team that already controls Panda, Shaw, Holt, Moncada, Rutledge and Devers should be spending .

 

[mauidano]

And the Red Sox have picked up Papi's $17MM option today...so just in case...

 

[snowmanny]

I'll be the crazy trade proposal guy. A deal built around Bradley, Jr. for Schwarber won't happen, but there is a certain logic. Schwarber really belongs in the American League and is a more dangerous hitter. Bradley is the better overall player but the Red Sox have other CF options.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

I think the lack of alternative options this winter for teams looking to upgrade and willing to spend big $$$ factors in there too.

At minimum he's definitely getting his $100m imo. How that ends up shaking out in years is debatable, but in free agency reality terms 5/$125m strikes me as what should be the more conservative "gets it done" guess in a competitive market.

I like Encarnacion, but at this point, the Red Sox outscored the next best team in the AL by more than 100 runs (COL by 30, and CHC by 80) -so sinking $125M into a decent (but not fantastic) 33 year old hitter seems like a solution in need of a problem.

Combine that with the fact that his K% went from about 14% a couple years ago to 19% this year - his OPS+ has dropped from mid 150s for several years in a row to 130, while having a (slightly) higher BABIP than his career average - his O-Contact% has dropped by 12% since 2013, his Z-Contact % has dropped 5% in the same time. His Z-Swing% is going down, his O-Swing% is going up, and his zone% is starting to creep up - pitchers are starting to throw him more strikes. He looks like he's right in the early half of falling off a cliff.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

I'll be the crazy trade proposal guy. A deal built around Bradley, Jr. for Schwarber won't happen, but there is a certain logic. Schwarber really belongs in the American League and is a more dangerous hitter. Bradley is the better overall player but the Red Sox have other CF options.

No, these things rarely happen, but there would be some logic to this if Fowler leaves. And we know that Theo loves his old gang. Sort of fun to think about

 

[StuckOnYouk]

If Beltran takes a one year deal, I'd be happy with that. We would get to keep our first round pick.

His wRC+ (124) finished tied for 33rd in MLB and he finished strong with Texas. Switch hitter to boot.

He's coming off 15 mil/yr for the last 3 years, wondered if he'd settle for that for a 1 year or 1 plus option based on PA, etc.

Pedroia
Benintendi
Betts
Beltran
Hanley
Bradley
Bogaerts
Pablo
C (Leon/Vazquez/Swihart?)

Good R/L balance throughout the lineup

 

[bosockboy]

Could Morales be had for like 3/48? Love his bat and might be able to get 75% of EE's production for half the price.

 

[the moops]

No, these things rarely happen, but there would be some logic to this if Fowler leaves. And we know that Theo loves his old gang. Sort of fun to think about

Fowler declined his option this afternoon. So...

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

They still have Heyward, Almora and Soler. It's a nice thought but I don't think JBJ for Schwarber is anything more than a pipe dream.

 

[SumnerH]

I can't even name the best full time DH's in history after Edgar and Papi.

Harold Baines?

 

[Hee Sox Choi]

 

[Devizier]

Harold Baines?

Frank Thomas was more a DH than a 1B.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Frank Thomas was more a DH than a 1B.

Paul Molitor too, although he had more games in the field if you combine.

 

[djhb20]

Troy Glaus is probably available. I think Ruth and Gehrig are both dead, so we should cross them off the list.

 

[Curll]

I want Pedro Alvarez back, damnit.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Harold Baines?

Frank Thomas was more a DH than a 1B.

One of the first guys who became known primarily for being a career DH was Hal McRae, who by the late 70s was pretty much done in the field

 

[foulkehampshire]

Chili Davis was a full-time DH from 31-39.

He's one of the few guys (full time DH) with significantly better splits at the position.

 

[shaggydog2000]

Troy Glaus is probably available. I think Ruth and Gehrig are both dead, so we should cross them off the list.

Don't be too hasty.

 

[snowmanny]

MLB.com’s Mike Petriello was asked on Twitter if a Jackie Bradley, Jr. for Kyle Schwarber trade would make sense for the Red Sox and Cubs. Petriello opined that it was a crazy idea, in part because Schwarber is more valuable than Bradley.

Schwarber is three years younger and isn’t arbitration eligible until 2019 — he has that in his favor — but and he clearly has huge upside with the bat. But is he indeed more valuable than Bradley? The latter is an elite defensive centerfielder coming off a season where he logged an .835 OPS and 63 extra-base hits. Schwarber is a defensive question mark with an .831 OPS in 278 career plate appearances.

I agree with Petriello the vast majority of the time. In this case, I’m not sure I do.
/QUOTE]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/sunday-notes-cubs-indians-disrupting-timing-bannister-d-backs-more/

 

[MikeM]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/sunday-notes-cubs-indians-disrupting-timing-bannister-d-backs-more/

Well, a lot there still depends on who Bradley is as a player.

All things considered, I'm not making that trade if I'm Theo and buying a lot more into Bradley's 2nd half then his first.