Replay to Expand in 2014

soxhop411

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Bosoxen said:
Unless I missed something, I believe we just had our first ruling from replay that overturned a call on the field in Arlington.
Nope we had two yesterday I believe
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Has it ruined baseball yet?
 
I just want to know when we can officially start mocking the old fogeys (or fogeys-in-training) who predicted that replay would irreversibly diminish our wondrous pastime, by removing the "human element".
 

Bosoxen

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soxhop411 said:
Nope we had two yesterday I believe
Well, fuck me then.

At any rate, I don't see it as anything but an improvement. The call in Arlington corrected what could have cost the Rangers the game. It saved them a run and they ended up winning 3-2. That's exactly what was hoped the system would do.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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There was an example a couple of nights ago of something that has to be eliminated. In the Rays/Jays game  there was a close play at 1st - possibly replay worthy. So the Jays manager ambles out to the field and engages the 1B umpire in a genial conversation about the call. Meanwhile the dugout awaits word from on-high over whether to appeal. This must have taken at least a minute. Finally the word is relayed to Gibbons (the Jays manager) not to appeal. It's bad enough that we have to wait around for the replay process. Now we have to endure stalling tactics just to decide on the appeal.
 
I think they should enforce a time limit on appeals - maybe 20 seconds. The dugouts (or contacts with TV access) shouldn't have access to TV replays before making the Appeal Decision. If they're so sure the ump blew the call then appeal right away.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I'm really at a loss understanding how adding a couple of minutes here and there to a game ruins the experience for anyone, particularly when it involves getting a ruling correct.
 
Are there really people out there who are obsessed enough about occasional delays that anything short of a 15-minute bench-clearing fiasco makes baseball unwatchable?
 

terrisus

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I don't think the time ruins anything, but the fact that you have people out there delaying things while someone else checks a television to let them know whether or not to dispute it is absurd. If that's the path they want to take, just give the manager a hand-held television in the dugout or something.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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We don't want that to occur very often, but bear in mind it's replacing a number of occasions where the manager used to come out and argue his case without the benefit of challenges - often resulting in lengthy rants, managers thrown out of the game, etc.  Somewhat entertaining but still an annoying delay.
 

terrisus

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I kind of feel like, at this point, if a manager has a challenge left, if he's going to come out of the dugout to argue, but doesn't use his challenge, there should be some sort of penalty.
It's like, what is he doing out there arguing if he doesn't feel there's a legitimate case for review?
 

Lowrielicious

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terrisus said:
I kind of feel like, at this point, if a manager has a challenge left, if he's going to come out of the dugout to argue, but doesn't use his challenge, there should be some sort of penalty.
It's like, what is he doing out there arguing if he doesn't feel there's a legitimate case for review?
He could be asking for clarification on the ruling. They can argue the ruling based on the interpretation of the rule rather than the judgement all day long and not need to ask for a review.
 

soxhop411

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terrisus said:
I kind of feel like, at this point, if a manager has a challenge left, if he's going to come out of the dugout to argue, but doesn't use his challenge, there should be some sort of penalty.
It's like, what is he doing out there arguing if he doesn't feel there's a legitimate case for review?
Though its the same in the NFL.. Most coaches are wired to someone in the booth, and many times they are the ones to tell the coach to challange or not…. MLB coaches I feel should have that right
 

Mighty Joe Young

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geoduck no quahog said:
I'm really at a loss understanding how adding a couple of minutes here and there to a game ruins the experience for anyone, particularly when it involves getting a ruling correct.
 
Are there really people out there who are obsessed enough about occasional delays that anything short of a 15-minute bench-clearing fiasco makes baseball unwatchable?
Because MLB has limited this to a single challenge teams are going to do whatever they can to make sure they have a reasonable shot at having a play overturned. On the play I mentioned up thread the call looked correct initially .. It only took a couple of TV replays to verify this. But gibbons still felt it necessary to have his nice long chat .. Probably discussing the rack on the broad in the 4th row. The Blue Jays didn't give a damn whether the umps got the call "right" .. All they cared about was a slim chance of turning an out into a single. These delaying tactics are only going to get worse and worse .. Especially when the call is bang bang and could go either way.

If they HAVE to have these stupid replays at least force teams to decide right away. Teams aren't supposed to be using the TV broadcast to gain in-game information - stealing signs , where the catcher sets up and so on. Why should they have access to the TV replay to make an obvious managerial decision like a replay challenge?
 

OfTheCarmen

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Anyone know of a way to get a list of all of the replays that get checked?  Could be some interesting analysis around which teams are doing it more, which innings, right/wrong, etc.
 

The Napkin

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right here
Also which umpires are getting it right/wrong
I'd be shocked if that info won't be available at some point even if it's just crowd sourced. In fact I just started a thread on the main board asking people to pitch in and I'll try to collate now and then. Do we want to try a general MLB thread in here as well?
 

MakMan44

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Haven't had a chance to catch up on this yet but has there been a umpire initiated replay yet?
 

soxhop411

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The Napkin said:
Also which umpires are getting it right/wrong
I'd be shocked if that info won't be available at some point even if it's just crowd sourced. In fact I just started a thread on the main board asking people to pitch in and I'll try to collate now and then. Do we want to try a general MLB thread in here as well?
 
 
OfTheCarmen said:
Anyone know of a way to get a list of all of the replays that get checked?  Could be some interesting analysis around which teams are doing it more, which innings, right/wrong, etc.
https://twitter.com/MLBReplays
 
Best I could find (videos included)… (run by MLB)
 

derekson

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MakMan44 said:
Haven't had a chance to catch up on this yet but has there been a umpire initiated replay yet?
 
I've seen a few umpire initiated replays on plays at the plate when there was a question of whether the catcher blocked the plate or not. Once in a Yankee-Blue Jay game and once in an Oakland-I forget who else game.
 

turnthe2

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Figured I would mention this here since replay/challenges have been involved with this call.  Apparently during the offseason (haven't found a link yet), the definition/interpretation of dropping a caught ball while transferring changed.  It is no longer an out if you mishandle the ball on the exchange. 
 
Anyone have any clue what the hell is going on here?  This seems lika a bad idea and players/managers are in disagreement with it.
 
Here are some examples of the change so far this season.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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turnthe2 said:
Figured I would mention this here since replay/challenges have been involved with this call.  Apparently during the offseason (haven't found a link yet), the definition/interpretation of dropping a caught ball while transferring changed.  It is no longer an out if you mishandle the ball on the exchange. 
 
Anyone have any clue what the hell is going on here?  This seems lika a bad idea and players/managers are in disagreement with it.
 
Here are some examples of the change so far this season.
 
Probably at the behest of the umpires as it removes a rather grey area of judgement .. if it's dropped/juggled the runner is safe regardless of "when" it occurred
 

DJnVa

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turnthe2 said:
 
 
Here are some examples of the change so far this season.
 
I LOVE that the announcers have no clue about the rule change in the videos you linked. In the second video, I wonder how the announcers knew the call would be overturned before the umps took off their headset.
 

derekson

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I'm in favor of the change simply because it brings consistency to the calls on those plays. In the past it was basically just a 50/50 shot in the dark whether such a play was ruled an error or a catch and a drop on the transfer. It was always a gray area and it was never clear if the ump was right or wrong. The new rule is very clear and it removes subjective and arbitrary calls from these plays.
 

zenter

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Setting aside Farrell's ejection and fine, this system has been the mess people predicted it would be from day one.
 
Between and among 1) forcing a call to NYC (where the 4-man replay crew could be working for as long as 15 hours on 15 games), 2) not having all content immediately available to that selfsame crew, 3) not having a strategy to deal with multiple challenges at the same time, and 4) the fact of the absurd challenge setup itself, this was a mess waiting to happen. In two weeks, we've seen missed calls, extended waits, and inability to challenge clearly-wrong calls.
 
Forcing umps to get calls right shouldn't be a strategic weapon that can be used 1-2 times a game. We should fully expect several "unnamed" team officials to complain about the system this season as this list of foibles and failures keeps mounting.
 
How the MLB failed to do the logical thing in roll-out is beyond me. The best solution (articulated here and elsewhere for literally years) was to have a full replay setup available to the on-field umps, or (better yet) add a man to every crew so they have someone focused on correcting/confirming close calls sitting upstairs at every game.
 

LeoCarrillo

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sonsoftrotnixon said:
Farrell to be fined by MLB for his replay remarks following the weekend series ..

http://nydn.us/1hFDkjD
 
First to be ejected for, in essence, arguing with an invisible man at NYC ump mission control.
 

 
It makes you wonder if the video umps were out of their seats, like, "Go sit down, Farrell!"
 
 
 

glennhoffmania

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zenter said:
Setting aside Farrell's ejection and fine, this system has been the mess people predicted it would be from day one.
 
Between and among 1) forcing a call to NYC (where the 4-man replay crew could be working for as long as 15 hours on 15 games), 2) not having all content immediately available to that selfsame crew, 3) not having a strategy to deal with multiple challenges at the same time, and 4) the fact of the absurd challenge setup itself, this was a mess waiting to happen. In two weeks, we've seen missed calls, extended waits, and inability to challenge clearly-wrong calls.
 
Forcing umps to get calls right shouldn't be a strategic weapon that can be used 1-2 times a game. We should fully expect several "unnamed" team officials to complain about the system this season as this list of foibles and failures keeps mounting.
 
How the MLB failed to do the logical thing in roll-out is beyond me. The best solution (articulated here and elsewhere for literally years) was to have a full replay setup available to the on-field umps, or (better yet) add a man to every crew so they have someone focused on correcting/confirming close calls sitting upstairs at every game.
 
I totally agree and I've been against challenges from day one.  MLB gives coaches the ability to challenge plays and people are surprised that they use stall tactics in the middle of an inning?  The goal of replay is to get calls right, and I don't see why coaches should be involved in that process, or why they should be limited to X number of umpire fuckups per game. 
 

soxhop411

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When Major League Baseball finally approved instant replay, a strong message was sent along with it, both through official channels and unofficial channels in the form of background comments to many reporters writing replay stories.
That message? It’s a work in progress. Baseball is being deliberate because it wants to get things right. If things don’t go smoothly, we’ll adjust. We’ll listen to managers and players and umpires and do our best to tweak the system
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/15/john-farrell-to-get-fined-for-being-critical-of-instant-replay/
 
So what message does MLB want to send?
 

soxhop411

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"We've had really very little controversy overall," Selig said Tuesday at the MLB Diversity Business Summit. "Everything in life will have a little glitch here and there where you do something new. And are our guys on top of it? You bet. But I'm saying to you again, you'll hear about the one or two controversies, but look at all the calls that have been overturned."
Umpires review challenged calls in a room filled with computers, screens and technicians at the offices of Major League Baseball Advanced Media.
"Technology takes a while to work," MLBAM chief executive officer Bob Bowman said. "I don't know if you ever bought a new car. You don't know how all that stuff works right away. And if you ever get a new phone, it takes you awhile to learn it. We're under 30 days old, and I know we've arrived because ESPN is already criticizing us. And it must be great to be perfect the way ESPN is
 
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/mlb-internet-head-defends-replay-criticism
 

caesarbear

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turnthe2 said:
Figured I would mention this here since replay/challenges have been involved with this call.  Apparently during the offseason (haven't found a link yet), the definition/interpretation of dropping a caught ball while transferring changed.  It is no longer an out if you mishandle the ball on the exchange. 
 
Anyone have any clue what the hell is going on here?  This seems lika a bad idea and players/managers are in disagreement with it.
 
Here are some examples of the change so far this season.
I think maybe this should be it's own thread, as there is a possible exploit as explained here.
 
It seems to be more than a pretend drop problem but really an issue on any catch were the outfielder is moving forward and there are runners on. If the outfielder legitimately drops the ball on transfer he only needs to be immediately aware that force outs are in effect. There's just no way to expect runners to be able to adjust to this new rule so soon.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Jayson Stark with a nice column laying out the impact of Replay thus far this year, and a fair assessment of its importance and quality.
 

Plympton91

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Replay worked perfectly in Yanks Rays game today. Myers almost stole an out call on a ball that he caught in mid leap after it bounced off the wall. The angle and distance made it hard for any ump to see clearly. The right call was clearly safe however and it was overturned quicy with the runners placed by umpire discretion without incident.
 

Lowrielicious

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Plympton91 said:
Replay worked perfectly in Yanks Rays game today. Myers almost stole an out call on a ball that he caught in mid leap after it bounced off the wall. The angle and distance made it hard for any ump to see clearly. The right call was clearly safe however and it was overturned quicy with the runners placed by umpire discretion without incident.
I was at the gold medal game at the Athens Olympics when the Aussies got dicked by a similar call against Cuba. Middle innings with the game in the balance. Loaded bases two out with a shot to centre which looked to be caught at the wall by a spectacular catch by the Cuban CF. Definitely looked like an out from my seat on 3b line. Replays on TV (no replay scoreboard at the game) showed obviously caught on the bounce of the wall. Aussie went on to lose , and may well have anyway, but that sure would have changed the complexion of the game at the time.
 

snowmanny

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Yesterday the Braves scored two runs against the Mets on a roller back to Colon, who threw it away. Turns out the ball was actually fouled off Freddie Freeman's foot but the play is not reviewable because fair/foul can only be checked on balls to the outfield.
 

glennhoffmania

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So let's see.
 
-Stupid challenge system instead of saving time and avoiding penalizing a team for catching too many ump mistakes by having someone at MLB decide what to review.
 
-Arbitrary list of plays that are not eligible for review.
 
-Shitty camera angles to prevent some accurate reviews.
 
-Incorrect calls are still confirmed despite a review.
 
This has been pretty much awful.  It never ceases to amaze me how MLB finds the dumbest ways to address a problem when simpler and more logical solutions are readily available.
 

cromulence

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Plympton91 said:
Replay worked perfectly in Yanks Rays game today. Myers almost stole an out call on a ball that he caught in mid leap after it bounced off the wall. The angle and distance made it hard for any ump to see clearly. The right call was clearly safe however and it was overturned quicy with the runners placed by umpire discretion without incident.
 
I actually think this brought up an interesting situation - should fielders still deke players/umpires into thinking they've made a play they haven't? Myers thoroughly pretended that he had caught the ball - there were two outs so he started casually jogging in, not even bothering to throw the ball back in. Gardner never stopped running and ran all the way home. To me, and I'm biased, that's a home run, or at least a triple with his speed. In the age of replay, fielders should assume that close calls will be looked at and should "play through" if there's any question. Granted, part of the umps making the initial out call was Myers' play-acting, but he also should know that a challenge is coming. It's an interesting question.
 

DJnVa

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glennhoffmania said:
So let's see.
 
-Stupid challenge system instead of saving time and avoiding penalizing a team for catching too many ump mistakes by having someone at MLB decide what to review.
 
-Arbitrary list of plays that are not eligible for review.
 
-Shitty camera angles to prevent some accurate reviews.
 
-Incorrect calls are still confirmed despite a review.
 
This has been pretty much awful.  It never ceases to amaze me how MLB finds the dumbest ways to address a problem when simpler and more logical solutions are readily available.
 
You know you can apply all of these complaints to the NFL system as well?
 

glennhoffmania

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DrewDawg said:
 
You know you can apply all of these complaints to the NFL system as well?
 
Sure, and I've always hated the challenge system in the NFL.  But in my opinion baseball is an easier game to review and MLB designed a shitty system even with the benefit of seeing the drawbacks of replay systems in other leagues.
 

Fred not Lynn

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cromulence said:
 
I actually think this brought up an interesting situation - should fielders still deke players/umpires into thinking they've made a play they haven't? Myers thoroughly pretended that he had caught the ball - there were two outs so he started casually jogging in, not even bothering to throw the ball back in. Gardner never stopped running and ran all the way home. To me, and I'm biased, that's a home run, or at least a triple with his speed. In the age of replay, fielders should assume that close calls will be looked at and should "play through" if there's any question. Granted, part of the umps making the initial out call was Myers' play-acting, but he also should know that a challenge is coming. It's an interesting question.
 
I think you still sell the catch, because even with replay, the evidence needs to be conclusive to overturn - so if you can shift the burden of proof to your side, you do it...with the caveat that you shouldn't let selling the catch interfere with continuing the play if you need to. That's just a judgement call each player needs to make.
 
MY problem with replay, is that how things work and how certain plays will work and be called is going to be different at different levels. The neighborhood play, and the transfers are being called differently in the college, high school and the minors than they are in the majors. Players and umpires learn to expect one thing for the bulk of their playing career, and then it all changes once they reach the pinnacle of the game.
 
I feel the same way about contact on plays at the plate. Is the possibility of a collision at the plate really what makes professional baseball better than amateur baseball? I don't think so. I think pro ball would work just fine with the same collision rules as amateur baseball. It might take a little time to get used to it, but in the end it would work out fine.
 

soxhop411

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“@jasoncollette: Umpires just went to instant replay to verify a count and still got it wrong. Escobar just struck out on a 4-2 fastball”



“@jasoncollette: There were 6 pitches in the at bat, no foul balls, and replay center said count was 3-2. Deduno apparently throws an invisible pitch”

Well done replay umps
 
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MentalDisabldLst

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Would that have been resolved better prior to / in the absence of replay?
 

Average Reds

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Lose Remerswaal said:
The umps might have been paying more attention before replay, now they can use it as a crutch.  Perhaps subconsciously, but all we know is this didn't happen in the past, did it?
 
Nonsense.
 
It only took me about 10 seconds to come up with an example of another time when the umps lost track of the count and had to check with outsiders to make sure they got it right. 
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/28/gary-cederstrom-loses-count-phone_n_985594.html
 
But forget this example - I watch a lot of baseball and I would go so far as to say that losing track of the count happens infrequently, but not so infrequently that I'm surprised at it.  It would not shock me to find out that this sort of thing happens several times a year. 
 
What makes this news is that after checking with replay they still got it wrong.  That's some next-level incompetence right there.
 

Toe Nash

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MentalDisabldLst said:
Would that have been resolved better prior to / in the absence of replay?
Probably not, but I don't think that matters. It should be incredibly easy to fix via replay if one can simply count. This is the kind of thing that I'd think even the most avid fans of the human element could agree should be fixed, partially because it's so simple. Guess not.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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My point was, yeah, it should be fixed.  And yeah, people shouldn't be dumb.  But replay has not hurt the adjudication of this issue - pointing out this flaw is not an indictment of replay.