Report: A-Rod banned through 2014?
- Thread starter mabrowndog
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RedOctober3829 said:
That was the reports originally, but according to Twitter (the news media of choice nowadays) that isn't the case (read 2nd one first):
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman14m
Thus, as long as A-Rod does appeal and doesn't incur a new injury he is playing tomorrow nite for #Yankees
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Joel Sherman @Joelsherman14m
#Yankees have been told A-Rod is being suspended tmrw, but also that if he appeals Selig not using his CBA powers to keep form field (cont)
I think MLB overplayed their hands a lot throughout this process, and ARods team played this very well. It looks like ARod's team continued to tell him MLB is making empty threats (lifetime ban, can't play while appealing) and they weren't going to be able to win in court.
This makes me really wonder what will happen in court/arbitration
canderson said:
Will Carroll @injuryexpert2h
Baseball is exploding on the rumor that new names coming tomorrow in suspensions. No one I've talked to has any idea.
The impression I get is that if he can play while he appeals that only covers him up until Selig essentially reiterates he still thinks he should be suspended for however long he initially ruled he should be suspended. I don't see how you can suspend him for more than 50 games under just the PED CBA stuff and not expect to lose if it ever gets to a real court. Tomorrow should be interesting, we will find out how much of this has been posturing all along. If MLB doesn't plan to suspend him for reasons other than PED then I think we will see a last minute deal, that is if Arod is amenable to something like rest of this season only in lue of wasting a lot of money in courts.
Didn't Robinson Cano's name come up in earlier reports? Someone in charge of his foundation had contacted Biogensis or something.
For being such a gigantic issue, I'm really surprised that there aren't too many really strong pieces of the nuances of the rules that govern baseball with this topic. It's all second hand wishy washy bullshit.
To summarize where most of the info is pointing right now.
Arod will be suspended tomorrow. If he appeals, Selig can invoke "best interests of baseball" to keep him off the field during the appeal process. However, sources are saying that Selig won't do that and instead will operate within the standard CBA language and let Arod appeal.
If all of the above happens, it doesn't seem like Arod will be suspended until 2014.
Just posting that to clear up some of the weird assumptions I see above.
To summarize where most of the info is pointing right now.
Arod will be suspended tomorrow. If he appeals, Selig can invoke "best interests of baseball" to keep him off the field during the appeal process. However, sources are saying that Selig won't do that and instead will operate within the standard CBA language and let Arod appeal.
If all of the above happens, it doesn't seem like Arod will be suspended until 2014.
Just posting that to clear up some of the weird assumptions I see above.
My understanding was that it was more than the standard 50 games because there are other factors here. Like lying to investigators/ conduct detrimental and other things.walkoffblast said:
Well I'd assume the suspension is X days, where X is the number of days until the end of the 2014 season... so if he appeals and loses, he'll also lose some portion of 2015.
The interesting thing to see tomorrow (if it comes out) is what ARod is appealing - will he appeal the entire punishment, or will he say 'I accept a 50 game suspension but I'll appeal anything above that'. I'd think he has a much better argument about the >50 game part (as others have noted with the Melky precedent, MLB has let people go with 50 game suspensions before after trying to hide stuff), whereas it does sound like MLB has good enough evidence to support a 1st non-analytic positive test suspension (otherwise I'd assume Braun & the others coming tomorrow that are allegedly all just going to accept the penalties would've fought a bit harder).
The interesting thing to see tomorrow (if it comes out) is what ARod is appealing - will he appeal the entire punishment, or will he say 'I accept a 50 game suspension but I'll appeal anything above that'. I'd think he has a much better argument about the >50 game part (as others have noted with the Melky precedent, MLB has let people go with 50 game suspensions before after trying to hide stuff), whereas it does sound like MLB has good enough evidence to support a 1st non-analytic positive test suspension (otherwise I'd assume Braun & the others coming tomorrow that are allegedly all just going to accept the penalties would've fought a bit harder).
Selig doesn't have to do the best interests of baseball thing right away. I wonder if MLB gets any kind of advantage from letting the drug arbitration thing play out first. Advantage as far as getting additional testimony, evidence, catching ARod in a lie during the arbitration hearing, or whatever. Something about the sequencing of all this that might make later actions more successful. Selig may have been bluffing about the ban, but I wonder what cards he might be holding back.
Speaking of best interests, the TV ratings ought to go through the roof tomorrow. The press box won't be big enough to accommodate all the media. In today's world, and even yesterday's, any kind of publicity is good. Just spell my name right.
Depending on what they have, maybe? It is in the best interest of baseball that the scope of ARod's cheating be fully exposed and that he doesn't undermine the process. They know he's lied to investigators before. I'm sure if they somehow got the opportunity, they'd love to be able to ask him questions under oath. Doubt they will, but I'm just wondering if there is something tactical they gain from the process that they'll be able to use later.NDame616 said:
I would think that in the appeal process Arod would be entitled to see what evidence (all) that MLB is basing its action and penalties on. I think the introduction of witheld evidence after Arod's appeal would likely be frowned upon by the arbitrator, and any other mediator judge that might have a say in this matter.
I wonder if this "he can play during an appeal" is due to the MLBPA letting Selig know they would not stand for de facto extra-judicial treatment.
Maybe. I was thinking all evidence related to PEDs, since that presumably would be the scope of what the arbitrator is ruling on. Evidence about obstructing the investigation? I think that might be a different matter that doesn't need to be handled in front of the arbitrator at the same time as the PED stuff. If not, no need to turn everything over right away. Not until MLB is ready to act on those issues.bankshot1 said:
NDame616 said:
Depending on why he was suspended it is likely his "appeal" would essentially just be decided upon by Selig. Being able to play while appealing isn't going to be covered by the CBA once it goes past that step and Arod is trying to get this issue into real courts (at least without an injunction that says otherwise).
strek1 said:
This is likely the case but MLB would still need to cite what under the CBA they are suspending him for. If they stick to just PED use then none of these things directly matter much beyond banter in the public. They would also probably have to prove he lied at some point which is usually a long and tough case to prove in a real court. Is there even anything in the CBA about lying being punishable?
walkoffblast said:
Either I'm misunderstanding you or the other way around.
Why he's being suspended? Because of his link to Biogenesis and overwhelming evidence tieing him to Bosch and the clinic. Same as Braun, Peralta, etc. MLB is going above the rest because apparently they are arguing he had a bigger role resulting in lies and hindering their investigation (I maintain that doesn't matter, but whatever)
And, I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, I have no idea why you're suggesting Selig is ruling in his appeal. It's an independent arbitrator who will ultimately decide his fate, not Selig.
86spike said:
I've thought this whole time MLB was legally wrong with their threats to ARod, and ARod's team played them perfectly.
MLB: We are going to push for a lifetime ban
ARod: I'm going to fight any punishment levied against me
MLB: If ARod doesn't accept punishment, he can't play during the appeal process
ARod: I don't know what's going on. I'm flying to Chicago on Monday to play for the Yankees.
MLB: ok....he's suspended until 2014...and he can play during the appeal
ARod's team is winning this so far. It's far from over, but they've been right so far
NDame616 said:
I believe that is only true if the suspension is handled down under the PED violation provisions. If the suspension is on "best interests of the game grounds," Bud is currently set up as the appeal entity. At which point this could converge with the earlier appeals court ruling on the NFL dispute over Bountygate, where having the Commissioner both make the suspension ruling and decide on the appeal was abandoned.
IMO Selig was hoping the lifetime ban threat would force Arod to accept the '13/'14 suspension. As Arod insisted he would fight whatever MLB did, and it seemed the lifetime ban was a fabricated penalty aimed specifically at Arod and designed to end-run the CBA, and one that would likely meet strong headwind from the MLBPA, and probably result in a mega-lawsuit against MLB, Selig apparently folded the threat.
AndrewMarchand Andrew Marchand
If A-Rod hits 13 more homers and ties Willie Mays, he receives a $6 million bonus.
If A-Rod hits 13 more homers and ties Willie Mays, he receives a $6 million bonus.
Maybe, but why all the back and forth since? Why did MLB then bring up the life time ban and threat he can't play while appealing (which is against the CBA) if we are back to the original proposed deal? What happened, and why did it change? Did MLB get more facts since it offered the ban till 2014, or is it just Selig throwing his hissy fit?jon abbey said:
From what I heard this morning on the shows, Selig just got pissed about how ARod and his team was handling this, threw his hands up in the air and said "enough, ban him until 2015". While settling a fight like that may hold up in a bad marriage, it may not be so successful in arbitration.
Another possibility is that cooler heads prevailed with the MLB. Especially after the lifetime ban was being bandied about, there was a lot of pressure for Bud as this played out to do what was prudent here and act within the agreed to rules -- on the basis that doing otherwise simply made ARod look sympathetic.
Going the JDA route allows Bud, as Olney noted last week, to argue to the MLBPA that he needs stiffer penalties for guys who flout the rules but only get caught once.
Going the JDA route allows Bud, as Olney noted last week, to argue to the MLBPA that he needs stiffer penalties for guys who flout the rules but only get caught once.
$34.2 million is a pretty steep fine. I'm not surprised that he's fighting it. I know it's relative to his contract but that's a huge financial penalty.
I expect an announcement this AM from A-Rod's camp that he's "leaving baseball to pursue a career in the basketball". He'll then give that a couple years try, and then return to the Yankees. Wearing number 35.
Morosi with a good take:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/alex-rodriguez-major-league-baseball-suspension-biogenesis-lifetime-ban-081413
It probably won't happen. But personally, I will applaud if ARod somehow ends up with less games than Ryan Braun.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/alex-rodriguez-major-league-baseball-suspension-biogenesis-lifetime-ban-081413
It probably won't happen. But personally, I will applaud if ARod somehow ends up with less games than Ryan Braun.
Van Everyman said:
This is possible and it's certainly how I would spin it if I were doing so on behalf of MLB, but the most likely explanation is that they overplayed their hand, their bluff was called and they folded.
We'll see how things play out later today, but if the reports are true that (1) MLB is handing out suspensions under the JDA, and (2) some of the offenders will not miss games because MLB is tying their non-analytic positives with Biogenesis to positive test results in 2012, MLB may be vulnerable in front of the arbitrator.
The case of Melky Cabrera is what I would focus on if I were A-Rod's attorney. Melky not only tested positive, but clearly impeded the investigation (and tried to manipulate/manufacture evidence) and yet he only got 50 games. And if his apparent non-analytic positive is lumped together with the previous offense, it seems to gut the rationale behind larger suspensions for A-Rod and Braun.
I have no sympathy for A-Rod. But if the reports of how these suspensions are coming down is accurate, I don't think the longer suspension for A-Rod will survive an arbitration hearing.
EvilEmpire said:
Participants in an arbitration hearing who withhold evidence do so at their peril. In this case, the peril is extreme, because not only would they risk having the results of the arbitration hearing overturned in federal court (because withholding evidence in front of an arbitrator is one of the only things that allows a litigant to go to court to contest an arbitration result) but they would risk labor peace with the union.
If the MLBPA believes that MLB is "gaming the system" to force a single player out of the game, they will believe (with justification) that they cannot trust MLB to adhere to the terms of their agreements. That trust is at the core of the current era of relative peace between MLB and the MLBPA, and I cannot believe that Bud Selig would place that at risk just to screw A-Rod. If he did, he's a bigger tool than I could have imagined.
Latest rumor is that Bud is no longer using the "Best Interest" clause, so this will go before an arbitrator (at least initially.) Also, I think that means A-Rod can play. We'll see.
A lot depends on what MLB is going to say about the documents and their efforts to obtain them (a timeline of who did what when, if you will). If I recall correctly, the New Times didn't give up the source's name and didn't turn over all the documents to MLB. If, during that time, A-Rod actively interfered with MLB's investigation into not only himself but 12-20 other players, than it's significantly different from what Melky did. Melky was fighting a positive test; putting up a website is more akin to a smokescreen. A-Rod has allegedly tried to obtain and destroy key physical evidence in the case, plus intimidate witnesses; that's more akin to burning down a house to hide your wrongdoings inside it.
Average Reds said:
A lot depends on what MLB is going to say about the documents and their efforts to obtain them (a timeline of who did what when, if you will). If I recall correctly, the New Times didn't give up the source's name and didn't turn over all the documents to MLB. If, during that time, A-Rod actively interfered with MLB's investigation into not only himself but 12-20 other players, than it's significantly different from what Melky did. Melky was fighting a positive test; putting up a website is more akin to a smokescreen. A-Rod has allegedly tried to obtain and destroy key physical evidence in the case, plus intimidate witnesses; that's more akin to burning down a house to hide your wrongdoings inside it.
Jeff Passan @JeffPassan
11m
Still some last-minute decision-making on Biogenesis cases. Neither side expects an announcement until around 3 p.m. ET.
11m
Still some last-minute decision-making on Biogenesis cases. Neither side expects an announcement until around 3 p.m. ET.
I hope so. Because this is like all those times your high school girlfriend gave you blue balls.
Rovin Romine said:
No disagreement - it all comes down to the strength and nature of the evidence they have.
Part of the reason I assume that it's not as damming as we have been lead to believe is that A-Rod and his lawyers have reportedly seen the evidence and instead of caving they are standing firm while MLB appears to be backtracking. But again, this is based on what has been reported, so who knows what the truth is.
opes said:
This made me laugh.
Average Reds said:
Melky is a great comp. Braun is too. I think you can justify giving Arod 75-100 games, but I can't see the justification beyond that based on the suspension others are receiving.
SaveBooFerriss said:
I think these kind of posts are hurting the discussion. You have no idea what the evidence the MLB has on Arod looks like so why are we making guesses or assumptions about what the suspension should be? What does the bolded even mean when it's so clear Arods case is very different from any other.
Melky created a fake website to protect himself. In essence, all he did was try to protect himself and didn't hurt the MLB's chances of catching anyone else. If the reports of what Arod did are true, then that's much worse because it hurts the MLB's chances of making a case against other players.
I just don't see the similarities between the cases.
I find it telling that of all the rumors out there, A-Rod is the only one who's going to actually appeal the suspension. This says to me that the Bosch stuff is probably pretty factual and accurate. We already knew this because Braun so easily took the suspension but this helps to add even more validity to him and the MLB's case.
What this actually tells about A-Rod's case, I'm not sure. Part of me feels like A-Rod is going to appeal only to be spiteful. If he truly believes the MLB and the Yankees are trying to screw him, I could see him appeal and hope for a long drawn out process so he can collect as much money as possible from the Yankees. I'm also torn on the whole suspension length thing. On one hand I feel like maybe the MLB is singling out A-Rod.. I mean, first offense is only 50 games right? On the other hand, if the MLB has as much evidence as they claim they do then he probably deserves a lot longer suspensions. Seeing as this is a non-analytical positive, the MLB has a lot of leeway in terms of suspension lengths..
Ideally, A-Rod eventually gets suspended for a long period of time. Before that happens I'm hoping for a complete circus surrounding A-Rod and the Yankees.
What this actually tells about A-Rod's case, I'm not sure. Part of me feels like A-Rod is going to appeal only to be spiteful. If he truly believes the MLB and the Yankees are trying to screw him, I could see him appeal and hope for a long drawn out process so he can collect as much money as possible from the Yankees. I'm also torn on the whole suspension length thing. On one hand I feel like maybe the MLB is singling out A-Rod.. I mean, first offense is only 50 games right? On the other hand, if the MLB has as much evidence as they claim they do then he probably deserves a lot longer suspensions. Seeing as this is a non-analytical positive, the MLB has a lot of leeway in terms of suspension lengths..
Ideally, A-Rod eventually gets suspended for a long period of time. Before that happens I'm hoping for a complete circus surrounding A-Rod and the Yankees.
Arod appealing has to do with money. His contract goes from 28m in 2013, 25m in 2014, and 21m in 2015. If he is suspended during 2013, prorated 28m is more than prorated 21m.
That's all assumption on my part regarding how the suspension would be handed out but if he is suspended today and plays while appealed. I can't see the MLB forcing his 2015 salary to be prorated at 2013 levels.
That's all assumption on my part regarding how the suspension would be handed out but if he is suspended today and plays while appealed. I can't see the MLB forcing his 2015 salary to be prorated at 2013 levels.
Nelson Cruz just 86'd his agents.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/nelson-cruz-leaves-aces-agency.html
Theories on why?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/nelson-cruz-leaves-aces-agency.html
Theories on why?
crow216 said:
I think your post is internally inconsistent. No one knows the validity of the evidence that MLB has on Arod. I can't see how you can claim that Arod's case is very different than any other.
SaveBooFerriss said:
Nobody knows the validity of the evidence so you think he should get 75 games. That's my point. Your post is ridiculous. It IS clear it's different and you don't need to see the evidence to know that. If it weren't, the MLB wouldn't be treating it differently.
