RIP Elgin Baylor

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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Oh shit I love Elgin Baylor. Everyone should read his autobiography, Hang Time, because it is incredible. Will post more about him later when I'm not working but this sucks. He was an amazing person.
 

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
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Ahh...by the time I saw him play (on tv of course) he was about done. Two fine seasons at 34 and 35. Then off the cliff for 11 games over 2 more.
But I got a sense of what I was missing when I saw Dr. J. with the early and mid 70s Nets. "Reminds me of Elgin Baylor," said every announcer and writer. That Dr. J. could remind so many people of someone else was pretty telling.
 

RoDaddy

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https://www.tmz.com/2021/03/22/nba-legend-elgin-baylor-dead-at-86/

An all time great that had the misfortune of playing in the NBA the same time as Bill Russell.
So true - his amazing athletic hang time game was really meant for the show time Lakers that came decades later

I'll always remember everyone anointing the Lakers the 68-89 championship when they added Wilt to West and Baylor. But Red shot that down with his famous "they might be three great players but there's only one ball". Sure enough, the C's went onto win one of their greatest championships by taking game 7 at the Forum with the celebratory USC marching band and rafter balloons never released
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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The "other" forward on my dream starting five. If I could take a time machine back in time to watch someone play live, he'd be one the very few. Too bad he didn't have more success as a GM. All stories point to him being a great guy irl. Him and Shaq are possibly the only two Lakers I don't have FTL thoughts about.

RIP Elgin.
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
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Yeah when I was a kid the all-time starting five was routinely stated as Russell/Pettit/ Baylor/West/Robertson (with Chamberlain worked in there sometimes).

Also, somewhere, Ginuwine’s parents are grieving.
 
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Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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Baylor basically invented the concept of the wing in basketball. Athletic, explosive, creative, prolific; so many players after him, from Connie Hawkins to Zion Williamson, followed the imprint that Baylor put on the game. Big guys like Mikan and Bob Kurland had done a "dunk shot" and Centers like Bill Russell and Wilt dunked with regularity, but Baylor was the first non-Center to play above the rim thanks to his explosiveness and coordination. He was like an alien that came out of space ship and reinvented the game.

In his book, Baylor writes about his life growing up around racism in Washington DC. He was a sensation as a teenager playing at a segregated high school when after his junior year, he was told by an ex-girlfriend that he had fathered her child. As was the custom at the time, Baylor married the girl and moved in with her and her mom, dropped out of high school and got a job moving furniture. He wrote in his book about how he would go to the basketball court at night and watch his former teammates play and cry. It was not until a year later, when by chance a relative who worked at the hospital told Baylor that the mother of the child gave birth at an earlier date than she told Elgin, did the story come out that he was not the father and he was able to get divorced and returned to finish his senior year of high school.

During his senior year he was easily the best player in the country, but nobody knew about it. The mainstream press didn't cover Black schools and recruiting was really in its infancy. Shortly after a white student set the city record for points in a game and got a giant spread in the Washington Post, Baylor smashes the record and opens up the paper the next day to see a spread on him and his performance...and sees that he only gets a tiny blurb.

Due to his hiatus from basketball and the lack of press coverage, he is hardly recruited. He ends up going to College of Idaho, a community college to play basketball and football, a sport he never played. In Idaho he is taken aback at first by the relative lack of racism and becomes friends with future 49ers Wide Receiver RC Owens. After football practice his basketball coach sees him dominate a pick-up game and tells Baylor he is never going to play football. After one season at College of Idaho, they fold the basketball program and Baylor sits out another year to become eligible to play at Seattle University. He dominates at Seattle, leads them to the NCAA Championship game, where Seattle loses to Kentucky. He is drafted #1 by the Minneapolis Lakers in the 1958 draft.

As a rookie he is immediately one of the best players in the league, averaging 25-15, and the Lakers surprise the defending champion St. Louis Hawks in the playoffs and make it to the Finals, after finishing last the previous season. They lose to the Celtics that season, which unfortunately become a theme for Baylor, who lost in the Finals to the Celtics 7 times in his career, never winning a ring.

In 1961 Baylor is drafted into the army and gets stationed at a military pace in Washington state. Making use of weekend passes, Baylor manages to play in 48 games for the Lakers that season, traveling from Washington to LA or wherever the team was on the road (often times a cross-country flight or train ride). He averages 38-19 that season. Truly one of the most remarkable performances in NBA history.

In 1965 Baylor blows out his knee, and due to the surgical limitations of the time he is never the same player. Most players at the time would have had their career ended due to the injury, but Baylor was not a regular player, and even a 70% effective Baylor was better than most NBA players. After a lost season where he had to learn to play differently without his trademark explosiveness and hang time, Baylor spent the next four seasons averaging 24-12, passing the torch to Jerry West but still remaining one of the best players in the league.

Injuries began piling up in 1970, limiting him to two games. The following season he gets off to a slow start and the Lakers ask him to come off the bench. Disinterested in being just a regular player, Baylor retires. The Lakers win the title later that year.

Today Baylor isn't forgotten, but unlike his contemporaries, he lacks something that kept him relevant to subsequent generations. Russell had his rings, Wilt had the statistical records, West became The Logo and became an NBA power-broker, Oscar has the triple-double, Baylor had...a long time spent working as a GM for the worst owner in sports. He didn't even get a book written about him until he published his auto-biography in 2018.

Only MJ and Wilt averaged more points per game for their careers than Baylor, and that includes the years Baylor spent rehabbing his knee. He is 10th all-time in rebounds per game as a 6'5" forward. He was All-NBA in 10 out of the 11 healthy years of his career and an All-Star every one of those years. Only Wilt averaged more PPG in a single-season than Baylor's 38.3 ppg in 1961-62. Not to mention the fact that Baylor basically invented the use of athleticism in basketball.

FWIW Baylor said that he really didn't have a higher vertical than everyone else. His secret was that he had an endless series of hesitations and fakes that through defenders off balance and caused them to jump earlier than him; so when they were falling back down he was reaching his apex, giving the impression he was "floating" above the defense. RIP.
 

terrynever

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Thank you for the great research and for mentioning Connie Hawkins. The Hawk took a back seat to nobody. Notice how these two Black superstars both were impacted by the racism inherent in sports in the 1960s. It’s amazing Russell was able to keep on track despite the racism he endured.
Elgin Baylor to me was just this legend on the west coast who we occasionally saw on national TV and in the NBA Finals. I was more interested in Wilt and Philly vs. Boston and Bill Russell. As a kid, I had no idea what these Black players put up with off the court.
 

jaytftwofive

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Jan 20, 2013
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Early 80s, Arnold spoke at BU in front of a rather sparse crowd, so he was able to riff a bit. Incredible accolades for Baylor.
Red said and also Johnny Most that he was the most dominant player against the Celts he ever saw. Even more then Wilt, who they could double team and hold to "only" 30 or 35 points. Elgin once had like 45 or 50 after 3 qtrs against the Celts and Red slammed the clipboard down and yelled....."Can't anyone stop that Son of a Bitch" LOL. He would look at Hondo or Satch or Heinsohn and and say with his eyes or hand expressions..Can't you guys double team him? And Hondo would shrug his shoulders and look back "what do you want? we can't!" RIP Elgin. It's a shame he retired in the 71-72 season and didn't win a title.
 

jaytftwofive

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Jan 20, 2013
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Thank you for the great research and for mentioning Connie Hawkins. The Hawk took a back seat to nobody. Notice how these two Black superstars both were impacted by the racism inherent in sports in the 1960s. It’s amazing Russell was able to keep on track despite the racism he endured.
Elgin Baylor to me was just this legend on the west coast who we occasionally saw on national TV and in the NBA Finals. I was more interested in Wilt and Philly vs. Boston and Bill Russell. As a kid, I had no idea what these Black players put up with off the court.
Satch and Sam Jones and Russell said the LA Cops were the worst and most racist, pulling them over in a car 4 or 5 times. They said the Boston Police never did that. Maybe because they knew who they were?
 

Tony C

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Yep, that was awesome Kliq...thx.

And the clips of Baylor they've been playing -- holy shit a man among boys. So used to seeing old school players look like high schoolers compared to today's pros. Not at all in his case: his moves are f-ing insanely good. Looks like he'd be right at home in today's NBA.
 

Bergs

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Jul 22, 2005
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Baylor basically invented the concept of the wing in basketball. Athletic, explosive, creative, prolific; so many players after him, from Connie Hawkins to Zion Williamson, followed the imprint that Baylor put on the game. Big guys like Mikan and Bob Kurland had done a "dunk shot" and Centers like Bill Russell and Wilt dunked with regularity, but Baylor was the first non-Center to play above the rim thanks to his explosiveness and coordination. He was like an alien that came out of space ship and reinvented the game.

In his book, Baylor writes about his life growing up around racism in Washington DC. He was a sensation as a teenager playing at a segregated high school when after his junior year, he was told by an ex-girlfriend that he had fathered her child. As was the custom at the time, Baylor married the girl and moved in with her and her mom, dropped out of high school and got a job moving furniture. He wrote in his book about how he would go to the basketball court at night and watch his former teammates play and cry. It was not until a year later, when by chance a relative who worked at the hospital told Baylor that the mother of the child gave birth at an earlier date than she told Elgin, did the story come out that he was not the father and he was able to get divorced and returned to finish his senior year of high school.

During his senior year he was easily the best player in the country, but nobody knew about it. The mainstream press didn't cover Black schools and recruiting was really in its infancy. Shortly after a white student set the city record for points in a game and got a giant spread in the Washington Post, Baylor smashes the record and opens up the paper the next day to see a spread on him and his performance...and sees that he only gets a tiny blurb.

Due to his hiatus from basketball and the lack of press coverage, he is hardly recruited. He ends up going to College of Idaho, a community college to play basketball and football, a sport he never played. In Idaho he is taken aback at first by the relative lack of racism and becomes friends with future 49ers Wide Receiver RC Owens. After football practice his basketball coach sees him dominate a pick-up game and tells Baylor he is never going to play football. After one season at College of Idaho, they fold the basketball program and Baylor sits out another year to become eligible to play at Seattle University. He dominates at Seattle, leads them to the NCAA Championship game, where Seattle loses to Kentucky. He is drafted #1 by the Minneapolis Lakers in the 1958 draft.

As a rookie he is immediately one of the best players in the league, averaging 25-15, and the Lakers surprise the defending champion St. Louis Hawks in the playoffs and make it to the Finals, after finishing last the previous season. They lose to the Celtics that season, which unfortunately become a theme for Baylor, who lost in the Finals to the Celtics 7 times in his career, never winning a ring.

In 1961 Baylor is drafted into the army and gets stationed at a military pace in Washington state. Making use of weekend passes, Baylor manages to play in 48 games for the Lakers that season, traveling from Washington to LA or wherever the team was on the road (often times a cross-country flight or train ride). He averages 38-19 that season. Truly one of the most remarkable performances in NBA history.

In 1965 Baylor blows out his knee, and due to the surgical limitations of the time he is never the same player. Most players at the time would have had their career ended due to the injury, but Baylor was not a regular player, and even a 70% effective Baylor was better than most NBA players. After a lost season where he had to learn to play differently without his trademark explosiveness and hang time, Baylor spent the next four seasons averaging 24-12, passing the torch to Jerry West but still remaining one of the best players in the league.

Injuries began piling up in 1970, limiting him to two games. The following season he gets off to a slow start and the Lakers ask him to come off the bench. Disinterested in being just a regular player, Baylor retires. The Lakers win the title later that year.

Today Baylor isn't forgotten, but unlike his contemporaries, he lacks something that kept him relevant to subsequent generations. Russell had his rings, Wilt had the statistical records, West became The Logo and became an NBA power-broker, Oscar has the triple-double, Baylor had...a long time spent working as a GM for the worst owner in sports. He didn't even get a book written about him until he published his auto-biography in 2018.

Only MJ and Wilt averaged more points per game for their careers than Baylor, and that includes the years Baylor spent rehabbing his knee. He is 10th all-time in rebounds per game as a 6'5" forward. He was All-NBA in 10 out of the 11 healthy years of his career and an All-Star every one of those years. Only Wilt averaged more PPG in a single-season than Baylor's 38.3 ppg in 1961-62. Not to mention the fact that Baylor basically invented the use of athleticism in basketball.

FWIW Baylor said that he really didn't have a higher vertical than everyone else. His secret was that he had an endless series of hesitations and fakes that through defenders off balance and caused them to jump earlier than him; so when they were falling back down he was reaching his apex, giving the impression he was "floating" above the defense. RIP.
Great. Fucking. Post.

Thank you.
 

Pegleg

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Jul 15, 2005
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Thank you Kliq for a great post. One item about Baylor was his nickname, "Tick Tok". He had a head tick (something I suffered for many years) and I was surprised when I found that his tick was known to the players and commented upon. When you see his highlights, you'll notice that motion.
 

Mooch

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Jul 15, 2005
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RIP.

21 year old me had a funny phone encounter with Elgin. In 1994, I was a sales assistant for a national radio company and we represented the LA Clippers network (yes, they actually had one) for ad sales. Phone call came in for the NY Manager and he was on the other line. When I asked who was calling, the voice on the other end said "Elgin Baylor." I had just played pickup basketball with the sales team the night before and I wore a Celtics shirt during the game so I was convinced that someone was pulling my leg. I sarcastically answered "yeah, right. Hang on a second, ELGIN." Walked into the manager's office and said "hey, some guy tried to prank me and said he was Elgin Baylor." He responded, "yeah, that IS Elgin Baylor. I'll take the call." Turns out that while Elgin was GM of the Clips back then, he was involved in all sorts of aspects of the business end of things.

Got word later that Elgin was not amused with my unprofessionalism.
 

joe dokes

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Bob Ryan had a nice piece on Baylor in the Glob.

This is especially good. Talking about Baylor's first game in the Garden, he first quotes a couple of Globe writer:
He also had the attention of venerable Globe basketball writer Jack Barry, an NBA sage who came up with the concept of a turnover and who had been in attendance at the Celtics’ first practice 12 years earlier. Wrote Barry, “The victory took some taking, however, as coach Johnny Kundla of the Lakers introduced a one-man gang in rookie Elgin Baylor out of the University of Seattle. Baylor accumulated 36 points and took 23 rebounds in a superb exhibition for a first-year man.”
Clif Keane was another veteran observer. He covered that game for the Evening Globe, and here is his take: “Baylor again tormented the Celtics in the [overtime] five minutes before he fouled out with a minute remaining. The crowd gave the rookie a standing ovation. Nobody has ever made such a first-game impression.”
And then.....
And, oh, how the world has changed. Another player making his Boston Garden debut that evening was Wilt Chamberlain, who scored 50 points for the Harlem Globetrotters in the first game of the doubleheader. (Yes, they won.) Now there’s a program worth saving.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/23/sports/elgin-baylor-was-most-influential-basketball-player-past-60-years/
 

Kliq

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Yeah, the passage about Elgin in Bill's book is great because it was so real and informal. We have been lucky as NBA fans that so many of the old names lived for a very long time (Kareem, Russell, Baylor, West, Oscar, etc.) so they have been able to share their stories with people like my generation. Up until a few years ago the only NBA MVP that had died was Wilt. Since then Moses Malone, Kobe and Wes Unseld have been added to that list, but the rest are all still alive, even Pettit and Cousy who are in their 90s.