Romeo Langford - Pick #14

HomeRunBaker

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I don’t see how Romeo’s offense doesn’t get to at least acceptable, to go with his apparent defensive shops. The guy was a gazillion point scorer in HS. The NBA certainly isn’t high school, but a wing putting up big offense is different than a HS player getting buckets because he’s a foot taller than his defenders.
Yes this is so true. Romeo has had each of his 3 seasons since high school either cut short, not yet began or saw him playing injured. He isn’t an abysmal offensive player.....he is an abysmal perimeter shooter and shooting is the easiest learned skill for a basketball player. He’s also physically ready to contribute. Now we are in the stages of conditioning, slowing game down and improving shooting mechanics. I see a good NBA rotation player if he can get past the injury bug.......Semi/Grant? Not so much.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Way too early to say he won't, but wasn't his biggest strength in college his ability to finish at the rim? Given the size and athleticism difference in the paint between the NBA and lower levels, that's absolutely a skill that may never end up translating in the NBA, especially considering Romeo himself doesn't have overwhelming size or athleticism.
His best ability was to run the PnR. https://www.crimsonquarry.com/2019/6/7/18654836/2019-nba-draft-profile-romeo-langford-indiana-university-hoosiers

You are correct that a large part of that ability was ability to finish but he was young at IND, is still young at the NBA, worked the last four months on his left hand and his handle, and still has elite athleticism (not jumping ability). As discussed here ad nauseam, there are not a lot of PnR opportunities for players other than Jays, KW, and Marcus.

But if Romeo soaks up even 15 wing minutes by playing great defense, finishing in transition (which we know he can do from last season), and attacking close-outs, I think it will be an upgrade from what we've seen earlier this year.
 

Euclis20

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His best ability was to run the PnR. https://www.crimsonquarry.com/2019/6/7/18654836/2019-nba-draft-profile-romeo-langford-indiana-university-hoosiers

You are correct that a large part of that ability was ability to finish but he was young at IND, is still young at the NBA, worked the last four months on his left hand and his handle, and still has elite athleticism (not jumping ability). As discussed here ad nauseam, there are not a lot of PnR opportunities for players other than Jays, KW, and Marcus.

But if Romeo soaks up even 15 wing minutes by playing great defense, finishing in transition (which we know he can do from last season), and attacking close-outs, I think it will be an upgrade from what we've seen earlier this year.
That's his upside as I see it for next year, and it's reasonable. Short of a change in personnel, it's just not possible for him to grab a bigger role (Kemba/Smart/Tatum/Brown/Fournier have a lot of the 1-4 minutes reserved, let alone Pritchard and Nesmith).
 

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All I can say is that you're going to be very pleasantly surprised wrt Romeo, health permitting.
Hehehehehehehe. Sorry.

No I actually agree that RL is going to be a good player. Remember our gnashing of teeth about TL.
 

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That's his upside as I see it for next year, and it's reasonable. Short of a change in personnel, it's just not possible for him to grab a bigger role (Kemba/Smart/Tatum/Brown/Fournier have a lot of the 1-4 minutes reserved, let alone Pritchard and Nesmith).
Those five should take up 150-160 minutes of the 192 available. That leave about 30-40 minutes for Pritchard and Langford, which seems about right. And of course, injuries and rest days will likely add another 30 minutes on certain nights, which would likely give some to Granite and Nesmith.
 

Euclis20

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Those five should take up 150-160 minutes of the 192 available. That leave about 30-40 minutes for Pritchard and Langford, which seems about right. And of course, injuries and rest days will likely add another 30 minutes on certain nights, which would likely give some to Granite and Nesmith.
Yeah that's about what i see as well, although I think Nesmith will get as much of an opportunity as Langford to grab some of those regular minutes. 15-20 minutes is about the most Langford can hope for when everyone else is healthy if everyone comes back. Those are some big ifs, but of course Langford's very existence is often in question.
 

pjheff

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Yeah that's about what i see as well, although I think Nesmith will get as much of an opportunity as Langford to grab some of those regular minutes.
What have you seen since the Fournier trade that leads you to believe Nesmith will get a shot at regular minutes any time soon?
 

Euclis20

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What have you seen since the Fournier trade that leads you to believe Nesmith will get a shot at regular minutes any time soon?
He's a rookie, they always improve (not always very much), and Nesmith will have just as much of a shot as Romeo next year (which is to say, he's gonna have to fight to get playing time if everyone comes back). Hell, he's already played more career minutes than Romeo.
 

lexrageorge

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Nesmith's real window is probably next season. For now, he'll be mostly learning in garbage time.
 

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Nesmith's real window is probably next season. For now, he'll be mostly learning in garbage time.
I agree on both statements. It's my hope that with Fournier and maybe some of the defensive minutes/abilities of Langford (and let's be clear, he is still NBA inexperienced and is going to get beat a bunch), that we see more garbage time minutes. The weird thing is this. Brad seemed to play the starters (with Fournier mixed in) late against Charlotte during the blowout to get them cohesion time, so in the very short term I think we see less garbage time minutes, and then once he's comfortable with their cohesion I think/hope we see more garbage time minutes.
 

benhogan

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https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/4/5/22367443/romeo-langford-turns-in-solid-start-to-sophomore-season-against-charlotte-hornets-boston-celtics

The block was fun, but watch Romeo's defensive positioning throughout that possession. He gets it. Just need him to get healthy.

On the flip side of that coin, check out Kemba's off-ball defense during a game. I'll save the suspense, it's dreadful. Stands upright, watches the ball, loses his man, rarely cuts off passing lanes. I'm so ready for a Summer re-jiggering. The Celtics' defense is in constant rotation trying to cover up for Kemba, especially against the elite teams that attack KW. Your only as strong as your weakest link on D

If Romeo could back up Marcus at the point, this team could return to being a top 5 defense (next year). Bringing back the Point Center (+++ passing 5) will cover for any perceived downgrade on offense
 
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jimv

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I don’t see how Romeo’s offense doesn’t get to at least acceptable, to go with his apparent defensive shops. The guy was a gazillion point scorer in HS. The NBA certainly isn’t high school, but a wing putting up big offense is different than a HS player getting buckets because he’s a foot taller than his defenders.
Semi Ojeleye is the Kansas high school career scoring leader, iirc he averaged almost 40ppg his senior year
 

tbrown_01923

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The block was fun, but watch Romeo's defensive positioning throughout that possession. He gets it. Just need him to get healthy.
And they were fun last yr too. He is in the right place to make plays pretty often for a ~rookie.

If Romeo could back up Marcus at the point, this team could return to being a top 5 defense (next year). Bringing back the Point Center (+++ passing 5) will cover for any perceived downgrade on offense
Do you really see his handle as tight enough to bring the ball up the court under pressure? I wouldn't want JT/JB doing it either...
 

lovegtm

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https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/4/5/22367443/romeo-langford-turns-in-solid-start-to-sophomore-season-against-charlotte-hornets-boston-celtics

The block was fun, but watch Romeo's defensive positioning throughout that possession. He gets it. Just need him to get healthy.

On the flip side of that coin, check out Kemba's off-ball defense during a game. I'll save the suspense, it's dreadful. Stands upright, watches the ball, loses his man, rarely cuts off passing lanes. I'm so ready for a Summer re-jiggering. The Celtics' defense is in constant rotation trying to cover up for Kemba, especially against the elite teams that attack KW. Your only as strong as your weakest link on D

If Romeo could back up Marcus at the point, this team could return to being a top 5 defense (next year). Bringing back the Point Center (+++ passing 5) will cover for any perceived downgrade on offense
Imagine how much of an upgrade Rozier would be from Kemba...

tfw you drafted the right guy all along...
 

Jimbodandy

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Imagine how much of an upgrade Rozier would be from Kemba...

tfw you drafted the right guy all along...
Looks that way, but after that game, it seems that there's a bit of a personality fit problem. Reading between the lines, so who knows really, but seems like no love lost between TR and team. Might not have been workable.
 

Cellar-Door

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Imagine how much of an upgrade Rozier would be from Kemba...

tfw you drafted the right guy all along...
None?
Rozier is a pretty bad defender too, he's having a ridiculous off-ball shooting season, but Kemba is still probably the better player, and definitely was last year.
 

lovegtm

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None?
Rozier is a pretty bad defender too, he's having a ridiculous off-ball shooting season, but Kemba is still probably the better player, and definitely was last year.
Rozier's top-end defensive potential is so much higher though. He was legitimately good in the 2018 playoff run.

I'm fine with the observation that there might be irreparable chemistry/motivation issues stopping him from ever hitting that again though.
 

Saints Rest

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Looks that way, but after that game, it seems that there's a bit of a personality fit problem. Reading between the lines, so who knows really, but seems like no love lost between TR and team. Might not have been workable.
I think people are forgetting what a tire-fire of team chemistry that team had devolved into. Kyrie was the stars, but Scary Terry and Marcus Morris were the co-stars in that ugly drama-fest.
 

Cellar-Door

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Rozier's top-end defensive potential is so much higher though. He was legitimately good in the 2018 playoff run.

I'm fine with the observation that there might be irreparable chemistry/motivation issues stopping him from ever hitting that again though.
Maybe, but Rozier strikes me as having a lot of mid-career Rondo in him. He can if properly motivated play good D in short bursts, but on the whole he's not a good defender, and he isn't much interested in playing in the system. Kemba grades out as a similar or better defender by most metrics, and he generally has been the better offensive player. Rozier is a perfectly decent small 2 guard, but he's not anything we should regret letting go. It was a good move, and even with Kemba breaking down earlier than expected, they aren't significantly different in value now. The upside of the Kemba move was high.
 

lovegtm

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Maybe, but Rozier strikes me as having a lot of mid-career Rondo in him. He can if properly motivated play good D in short bursts, but on the whole he's not a good defender, and he isn't much interested in playing in the system. Kemba grades out as a similar or better defender by most metrics, and he generally has been the better offensive player. Rozier is a perfectly decent small 2 guard, but he's not anything we should regret letting go. It was a good move, and even with Kemba breaking down earlier than expected, they aren't significantly different in value now. The upside of the Kemba move was high.
Yeah, this is mostly a "me doing hindsight in the morning" thing--Brogdon is the real one that got away.

Not to derail the discussion toooo much further, but I also weight top-end playoff performance a lot more highly than regular season defensive metrics for players like Rondo and Rozier. Thr NBA postseason should carry like 10x weight for evaluation and value, given the nature of the sport.
 

benhogan

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Do you really see his handle as tight enough to bring the ball up the court under pressure? I wouldn't want JT/JB doing it either...
the PG bringing the ball up past halfcourt is an overrated (if it's even rated anymore?) skill. I see Marcus and Romeo's size/strength eschewing any pesky guards.

Backcourt pressure, in the NBA, penalizes defenses more than helps IMO. I'd rather let my 5 defenders dig in and pick up D just past the halfcourt line

Also, the C's could pass over it or let a wing bring the ball up or PP's handle is tight enough to penalize backcourt pressure

Once again my biases are showing, Hogan hoops team nirvana is 3 wings, a wingy PG, and a wingy 5.
 
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tbrown_01923

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I was thinking more on your first point. I think marcus is good enough bringing the ballup against pressure. I havn't seen RL enough as a primary handler bringing the ball up under pressure to know he will be sufficient. I am not sure evidnce of him getting to the rim in PnR is enough to say he can handle the primary ball handling role. I guess thats why they practice - to test things out...
 

HomeRunBaker

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I was thinking more on your first point. I think marcus is good enough bringing the ballup against pressure. I havn't seen RL enough as a primary handler bringing the ball up under pressure to know he will be sufficient. I am not sure evidnce of him getting to the rim in PnR is enough to say he can handle the primary ball handling role. I guess thats why they practice - to test things out...
Bringing the ball up court isn’t the issue. Smart struggles to get to his spot with the dribble to initiate the offense in the halfcourt agaiant quicker defenders. He also struggles defending the quicker guards. I don’t know why fans have been wanting for years to play Smart out of position when the strengths he brings to a team are so apparent (and somewhat limited).
 

Cesar Crespo

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It's really stupid to worry about playing time in the NBA.

Nesmith will probably now get some playing time over the next 2 weeks because Fournier has the Covid.
 

Cesar Crespo

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With Evan out (possibly for awhile), I wonder what the plan is with Langford. It would be a great time to see what he can do but at the same time, it might not be the wisest thing to play him much more than 15 minutes a night for the next few games.
 

lovegtm

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With Evan out (possibly for awhile), I wonder what the plan is with Langford. It would be a great time to see what he can do but at the same time, it might not be the wisest thing to play him much more than 15 minutes a night for the next few games.
I imagine he'll get as much playing time as his conditioning can handle. It won't be a ton at first, but cardio comes back reasonably fast.
 

TripleOT

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Semi Ojeleye is the Kansas high school career scoring leader, iirc he averaged almost 40ppg his senior year
I’m guessing Semi’s HS scoring mostly came from muscling smaller defenders. His “bigger than the competition” came from muscle, and not height.

Romeo has a lot of bounce and athleticism. I don’t see why he can’t become a plus scorer. Semi is a lot more stiff, to say the least.
 

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I’m guessing Semi’s HS scoring mostly came from muscling smaller defenders. His “bigger than the competition” came from muscle, and not height.

Romeo has a lot of bounce and athleticism. I don’t see why he can’t become a plus scorer. Semi is a lot more stiff, to say the least.
That word has always been the first thing that popped into my head with regard to Semi... stiff. Physically so (not casting aspersions on his play), and only in context of his professional peers obviously.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I’m guessing Semi’s HS scoring mostly came from muscling smaller defenders. His “bigger than the competition” came from muscle, and not height.

Romeo has a lot of bounce and athleticism. I don’t see why he can’t become a plus scorer. Semi is a lot more stiff, to say the least.
Semi averaged 19.0 points his junior year in college in 34.1 mpg. Shot 137/259, .529 from 2; 73/172, .424 from 3; and .785 from the line 172/219. He averaged 5.18 3PA/36 and 6.61 FTA/G.

I'm sure he was "bigger than the competition" and played that way sometimes, but he was also far more athletic than the competition.

10.58 agility time, 40+ inch vertical. And none of that is useful for the game he plays. He's less than 6% body fat too, though that's obvious to anyone with working eyeballs.
 

Cesar Crespo

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That word has always been the first thing that popped into my head with regard to Semi... stiff. Physically so (not casting aspersions on his play), and only in context of his professional peers obviously.
He doesn't really raise his arms. Maybe all the lifting has made his arms literally stiff. His feet definitely aren't.
 

TripleOT

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Semi averaged 19.0 points his junior year in college in 34.1 mpg. Shot 137/259, .529 from 2; 73/172, .424 from 3; and .785 from the line 172/219. He averaged 5.18 3PA/36 and 6.61 FTA/G.

I'm sure he was "bigger than the competition" and played that way sometimes, but he was also far more athletic than the competition.

10.58 agility time, 40+ inch vertical. And none of that is useful for the game he plays. He's less than 6% body fat too, though that's obvious to anyone with working eyeballs.
So why is Semi such a one dimensional offensive player in the NBA? I’ve watched his workouts with skills trainer Drew Hanlen and he certainly works very hard.
 

Cesar Crespo

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So why is Semi such a one dimensional offensive player in the NBA? I’ve watched his workouts with skills trainer Drew Hanlen and he certainly works very hard.
My guess is he's a track and field athlete and not a basketball player. He's also not long. He's just a freak athlete. That and maybe all the working out has stiffened his upper half a little. His footwork is great and he can jump out of the gym. Maybe he should have been a tight end.

For his draft class, he had the 3rd highest standing vert at 35.0 inches. 5th for max vertical jump at 40.5. 8th in the 3/4 court sprint at at 3.16 seconds. 3rd in the lane agility drill at 10.58 seconds. Shockingly, he wasn't even in the top 10 in body fat %.

https://www.topendsports.com/sport/basketball/testing-draft-results-2017.htm

Daillo was another combine warrior that year who is starting to play well. He's also 4 years younger than Semi. Despite that difference, the other key differences:
Daillo 6'4, 6'11.5 wing span, 8'7 standing reach, 4.45% body fat! Wow. 4.45.
Semi 6'6, 6'9.75 wing span, 8'6 standing reach, 5.50% body fat.

The body fat thing is obviously irrelevant. I just find it amazing considering how chiseled Semi is.
 

nighthob

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Semi averaged 19.0 points his junior year in college in 34.1 mpg. Shot 137/259, .529 from 2; 73/172, .424 from 3; and .785 from the line 172/219. He averaged 5.18 3PA/36 and 6.61 FTA/G.

I'm sure he was "bigger than the competition" and played that way sometimes, but he was also far more athletic than the competition.

10.58 agility time, 40+ inch vertical. And none of that is useful for the game he plays. He's less than 6% body fat too, though that's obvious to anyone with working eyeballs.
I always say this about guys. The athletic testing is good, but if you see none of it on the floor you need to forget it. I mean you see the lane agility (lateral quickness) with Semi, but you never see him leave the floor. So you have to forget the vertical numbers.

My standard examples for this were always Monta Ellis and Jodie Meeks. In 2005 Ellis's athletic numbers sunk his draft value to the point where Boston gave him a draft promise that they were expecting to be able to exercise at #50. Everyone looked at that 33" vertical and wrote him off. Yet when he arrived in the NBA he just dunked on everyone. Jodie Meeks, by contrast, tested out like Michael Jordan's MiniMe. But he ran around screens for jumpers. He dunked on no one and certainly didn't leave his feet on defense either.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I always say this about guys. The athletic testing is good, but if you see none of it on the floor you need to forget it. I mean you see the lane agility (lateral quickness) with Semi, but you never see him leave the floor. So you have to forget the vertical numbers.

My standard examples for this were always Monta Ellis and Jodie Meeks. In 2005 Ellis's athletic numbers sunk his draft value to the point where Boston gave him a draft promise that they were expecting to be able to exercise at #50. Everyone looked at that 33" vertical and wrote him off. Yet when he arrived in the NBA he just dunked on everyone. Jodie Meeks, by contrast, tested out like Michael Jordan's MiniMe. But he ran around screens for jumpers. He dunked on no one and certainly didn't leave his feet on defense either.
20 career dunks in 274 games, 3906 minutes. They make up 3.5% of his FGA. I know that's a crude way of measuring jumping ability but most players with his measurements and athletic testing would be part of lob city. Ham has 79 in 2303 career minutes. They make up 11% of his FGA.

Dunks also require more than jumping ability but that's kinda the point. Semi's ability to jump high is completely useless because he doesn't have the required skills to make any use of it. At least against NBA competition.
 

nighthob

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I mean you can look at the blocked shot numbers too. Has he passed the 20 mark yet? He just doesn't leave his feet. There're plusses to that, it's why he frustrates the Antetokounmpos and Simmonses of the NBA. But the minus is that you can shoot over him. Because he ain't leaving his feet to block the shot.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I mean you can look at the blocked shot numbers too. Has he passed the 20 mark yet? He just doesn't leave his feet. There're plusses to that, it's why he frustrates the Antetokounmpos and Simmonses of the NBA. But the minus is that you can shoot over him. Because he ain't leaving his feet to block the shot.
Including the playoffs, he has 13 blocks. Ham has 37.

I keep using Ham because they were drafted in the same year and have similar athletic profiles and measurements. While this has nothing to do with vertical, Ham also has 92 steals to Semis 69 despite having 2/3 the playing time. Part of that is wingspan but part of it is that Semi also doesn't really use his hands. I know his block rates are historically terrible but his steal rates might be. At least for his position.
 

Euclis20

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Semi has the same career block % (0.3%) as Isaiah Thomas. How a 6'6 athlete with a 40" inch vertical and a defensive reputation goes weeks without blocking a shot is one of the most baffling things I've ever seen.
 

TripleOT

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What Semi does well, move his granite body in the path of superstar wings, is something that can be valuable, especially in a playoff series. No one likes running into a brick wall over and over again.

I just wish he could play offense with more fluidity. Hanlen has him somewhat effective when he catches and immediately shoots the ball.

He’s only had 7 unassisted threes his entire career, (238 games, 3520 minutes) with 96% of his threes assisted, 165 makes. He’s had only 29 unassisted twos, 76% of his twos unassisted. One unassisted three made every 500 minutes. One unassisted two every 121 minutes.

How is this even possible? With 58% of his makes, and 65% of his takes, from three, is Semi the most one dimensional 3 and D player ever?.
 

Cesar Crespo

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What Semi does well, move his granite body in the path of superstar wings, is something that can be valuable, especially in a playoff series. No one likes running into a brick wall over and over again.

I just wish he could play offense with more fluidity. Hanlen has him somewhat effective when he catches and immediately shoots the ball.

He’s only had 7 unassisted threes his entire career, (238 games, 3520 minutes) with 96% of his threes assisted, 165 makes. He’s had only 29 unassisted twos, 76% of his twos unassisted. One unassisted three made every 500 minutes. One unassisted two every 121 minutes.

How is this even possible? With 58% of his makes, and 65% of his takes, from three, is Semi the most one dimensional 3 and D player ever?.
Those numbers aren't all that odd. Very few players can create their own shot and I'd guess close to 90% of 3's are assisted.

TL's assist rate on 2PFG% for his career is 76.5%. This year it's at a career low 72.2%.

83.0% of Marcus Smart's 3 point FGs are assisted. Marcus Smart!
 

Cesar Crespo

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3pt FG assist % this year

Grant Williams 100.00%
Daniel Theis 100.00%

Aaron Nesmith 100.00%
Jevonte Green 100.00%
Luke Kornet 100.00%
Moe Wagner 100.00%
Romeo Langford 100.0%%
Semi 98.00%
PP 86.4%
Smart 84.7%
Fournier 81.8%
Jaylen 77.9%
Carsen 69.2%
Teague 61.5%
Kemba 52.9%
Tatum 37.9%
Waters 33.3%



He's on the high side for 2 point FG% but it's not uncommon. Not only is TL higher, but DT was a robust 82.5%.

my 90% figure is obviously way off on 3s but it's a high %.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Brad doesn't talk this way about Nesmith. He's legitimately excited, coachingly, to have Romeo back:

View: https://twitter.com/ByJayKing/status/1379553317412597764?s=20
I was the biggest Carsen critic on the board last year but I'm convinced he's an NBA player. I'm just not sure what is role is on a team with Kemba Walker or playoff aspirations. Of course, I'm not sure what was stopping Brad from playing Smart and Edwards together either. I'm also not sure who the PG would be in that scenario.
 

HomeRunBaker

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So why is Semi such a one dimensional offensive player in the NBA? I’ve watched his workouts with skills trainer Drew Hanlen and he certainly works very hard.
He can no longer bully smaller players in the AAC like he did for SMU. His game was mid-range jumper and bullying to the rim. When he was at Duke he couldn’t crack their rotation and they were not a deep team at all in the frontcourt.