Rondo accused of pulling gun....

djbayko

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Jul 18, 2005
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I don't see anything new in there. It seems awfully short, so maybe I'm not getting the whole article for some reason?

Man, this story sucks. I always really liked Rondo, even in his post-Celtics career. It should be noted that this story is all coming from one side, but there has to be at least some truth to it even if embellished a bit. If all of it is true, then Jesus. Either way, it seems Rondo is a troubled individual, and I feel terrible for his children.
 
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strek1

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Jun 13, 2006
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So far as I can discern, there are no new details and it's a shittastic website to boot.
Yeah I thought the details about his quotes were new but they werent. Anyway, Rondo probably just ended his nearly over career a bit sooner than he wanted.
 

Bergs

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Jul 22, 2005
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Yeah I thought the details about his quotes were new but they werent. Anyway, Rondo probably just ended his nearly over career a bit sooner than he wanted.
Seems that way. Thanks for posting the link (the first one lol). I haven't seen it anywhere else.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I can't, and never will understand the fascination people have with guns, outside of folks who hunt. Is Rondo hunting deer in his spare time, going to the range for target practice as a hobby in his spare time?

Rondo has made over $110,000,000 in his career (not including anything but his salary) and he needs a gun for what, exactly? If it's true, fuck him and fuck this country's culture so that everyone thinks they need a gun for some reason or another.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Rondo has made over $110,000,000 in his career (not including anything but his salary) and he needs a gun for what, exactly? If it's true, fuck him and fuck this country's culture so that everyone thinks they need a gun for some reason or another.
I'm guessing you answered your own question. Protection from people trying to rob in.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I'm guessing you answered your own question. Protection from people trying to rob in.
You know how to protect yourself from being robbed when you have made 9 figures in your career. Hire a fucking security team, and put some gates around your house.

I would love to know the percentage of wealthy people who have used a gun protecting themselves, vs. gotten in trouble for having a gun. 99 to 1, maybe?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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You know how to protect yourself from being robbed when you have made 9 figures in your career. Hire a fucking security team, and put some gates around your house.

I would love to know the percentage of wealthy people who have used a gun protecting themselves, vs. gotten in trouble for having a gun. 99 to 1, maybe?
You can probably take the word wealthy out of the sentence and it doesn't change much.

And you'd think they would know how to protect themselves but Antoine Walker had issues, PP had issues. They probably would have had bigger issues if they had a gun, though.
 

DGreenwood

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Getting robbed (as long as you are unharmed) has got to be a better long term outcome than using a gun to prevent a robbery. Even if the shooting is justified, having shot someone seems like a lot more to have to deal with than having been robbed. Especially if you're rich enough that getting robbed isn't going to impact your lifestyle very much.
 

RetractableRoof

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I can't, and never will understand the fascination people have with guns, outside of folks who hunt. Is Rondo hunting deer in his spare time, going to the range for target practice as a hobby in his spare time?

Rondo has made over $110,000,000 in his career (not including anything but his salary) and he needs a gun for what, exactly? If it's true, fuck him and fuck this country's culture so that everyone thinks they need a gun for some reason or another.
The same argument can be made for high end sports cars. I'd hazard a guess that there are more deaths involving fast driving car owners (any death involving a speed over say... 80 mph or involving speeds of greater than 20 mph over the speed limit) than guns operated by their registered owners. It's the same culture. Add judgement impairing liquids/substances and...

My young cousin tragically encountered such speed over 20 MPH (mixed with alcohol in the driver) about 50 feet from his front door and about 300 feet from a stop sign. I'd be all for putting speed governors in cars and trying to legislate all kinds of restrictions regarding the possession of any car capable of the kinds of acceleration that make these crimes/events possible - why do they need those kinds of death devices - are they race car drivers? I'd go further, but the tangent already seems V&N.
 

Deathofthebambino

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The same argument can be made for high end sports cars. I'd hazard a guess that there are more deaths involving fast driving car owners (any death involving a speed over say... 80 mph or involving speeds of greater than 20 mph over the speed limit) than guns operated by their registered owners. It's the same culture. Add judgement impairing liquids/substances and...

My young cousin tragically encountered such speed over 20 MPH (mixed with alcohol in the driver) about 50 feet from his front door and about 300 feet from a stop sign. I'd be all for putting speed governors in cars and trying to legislate all kinds of restrictions regarding the possession of any car capable of the kinds of acceleration that make these crimes/events possible - why do they need those kinds of death devices - are they race car drivers? I'd go further, but the tangent already seems V&N.
The analogy is terrible on a million fronts. What purpose does a gun, any gun, serve? What is the reason it exists? Now do that for a car.

And what makes you think high end sports car owners are more likely to kill someone, or drive drunk, or cause an accident, than every other car on the road that is more than capable of going over 80mph and being driven by someone who is drunk? If we're going to worry about high end sports cars, how about we worry about the multi-ton SUV"s and pickups that are everywhere, and have nowhere near the ability to stop quickly, like say, a BMW? The worst drivers I see on the road every day, are almost never driving high end sports cars.

People drive a lot more than people handle guns. So, you are going to have way, way more traffic fatalities and incidents like the one you describe above just based on numbers alone. I'm sorry to hear about your cousin, truly, and I've lost about 10 friends and family in car accidents over the years, but none of them were in or hit by a high end sports car. And, least a car has a purpose besides killing. For every Henry Ruggs, there are millions and millions of responsible car owners. For every non-hunter, non-range enthusiast, what's the percentage of responsible gun owners? And if you aren't using the gun at a range, or for hunting, what's the point of having one? I suppose some folks might collect them or something.
 

ilol@u

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Let’s take the gun talk to V&N.
Rondo used to be one of my favorite players and I always thought he was one of the most intelligent basketball minds out there. If these allegations are true, then fuck him and I hope he isn’t ever allowed back in Boston for any ceremonies.
 

RetractableRoof

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The analogy is terrible on a million fronts. What purpose does a gun, any gun, serve? What is the reason it exists? Now do that for a car.

And what makes you think high end sports car owners are more likely to kill someone, or drive drunk, or cause an accident, than every other car on the road that is more than capable of going over 80mph and being driven by someone who is drunk? If we're going to worry about high end sports cars, how about we worry about the multi-ton SUV"s and pickups that are everywhere, and have nowhere near the ability to stop quickly, like say, a BMW? The worst drivers I see on the road every day, are almost never driving high end sports cars.

People drive a lot more than people handle guns. So, you are going to have way, way more traffic fatalities and incidents like the one you describe above just based on numbers alone. I'm sorry to hear about your cousin, truly, and I've lost about 10 friends and family in car accidents over the years, but none of them were in or hit by a high end sports car. And, least a car has a purpose besides killing. For every Henry Ruggs, there are millions and millions of responsible car owners. For every non-hunter, non-range enthusiast, what's the percentage of responsible gun owners? And if you aren't using the gun at a range, or for hunting, what's the point of having one? I suppose some folks might collect them or something.
It's a perfectly fine analogy on many fronts. What purpose does a car serve being driven over the speed limit? In that moment it is used for nothing but breaking the law (even in the pursuit of other typically benign uses like 'transportation'). With respect to cars: Why do we tolerate significant loss of life with devices with capabilities that do nothing but exist to break the law. Limit/govern every car to the highest speed limit in the nation and watch deaths plummet. Do it in software tied to GPS and limit it to the highest speed allowed in the state/jurisdiction and watch deaths plummet. I'm tired of attending funerals and seeing the impact of deaths caused by a culture of speed.

I'm not going to get into a gun conversation here - though I could. I will limit my comment to this: you clearly know little about guns and their (edit: legal) owners if you believe the percentage of responsible gun owners is low. The point is, we are often up in arms (no pun intended) about obvious bad things while simultaneously ignoring things that impact us in a far greater manner. Snap your fingers and make un-prescribed fentanyl disappear and you will save more lives this year than any loss due to guns (legal or not).

Likewise, I am sorry you've lost about 10 friends in car accidents over the years. The loss of my cousin was significant to my family and in the damage in caused. Some of my family members never recovered from the loss.
 
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johnmd20

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Let’s take the gun talk to V&N.
Rondo used to be one of my favorite players and I always thought he was one of the most intelligent basketball minds out there. If these allegations are true, then fuck him and I hope he isn’t ever allowed back in Boston for any ceremonies.
The story is about Rondo pulling a gun on a woman. How can you take the gun talk out of a story about someone pulling a gun on someone else?
 

Deathofthebambino

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It's a perfectly fine analogy on many fronts. What purpose does a car serve being driven over the speed limit? In that moment it is used for nothing but breaking the law (even in the pursuit of other typically benign uses like 'transportation'). With respect to cars: Why do we tolerate significant loss of life with devices with capabilities that do nothing but exist to break the law. Limit/govern every car to the highest speed limit in the nation and watch deaths plummet. Do it in software tied to GPS and limit it to the highest speed allowed in the state/jurisdiction and watch deaths plummet. I'm tired of attending funerals and seeing the impact of deaths caused by a culture of speed.

I'm not going to get into a gun conversation here - though I could. I will limit my comment to this: you clearly know little about guns and their owners if you believe the percentage of responsible gun owners is low. The point is, we are often up in arms (no pun intended) about obvious bad things while simultaneously ignoring things that impact us in a far greater manner. Snap your fingers and make un-prescribed fentanyl disappear and you will save more lives this year than any loss due to guns (legal or not).

Likewise, I am sorry you've lost about 10 friends in car accidents over the years. The loss of my cousin was significant to my family and in the damage in caused. Some of my family members never recovered from the loss.

You keep talking about "responsible gun owners?, but looking to make laws that affect responsible car owners. I assume you would agree that someone that doesn't register their gun would be, prima facie, irresponsible, correct? I'm sure you would agree that someone who drives without a driver's license, or without insurance, would be irresponsible? There are estimated to be around 400 million guns in the US, more than 1 per person. Around 6 million guns are registered. So, the vast majority of gun owners are not responsible from the outset. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/guns-per-capita

I have no issue with putting governors on cars. Of course, you are now eliminating the vast majority of high end, "responsible" car owners who like to use the track on the weekends (just like the gun range, for that matter).

How about I agree to that, if you and the NRA agree to make it equally as hard to buy, register, insure and license every gun owner, as the states now do with cars? Shooting tests, background checks, student safety for months prior to license, registering them, insuring them, annual fees, renewals, everything.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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Let’s take the gun talk to V&N.
Rondo used to be one of my favorite players and I always thought he was one of the most intelligent basketball minds out there. If these allegations are true, then fuck him and I hope he isn’t ever allowed back in Boston for any ceremonies.
I don't have any problem with a mod moving the gun conversation elsewhere. Of course, this thread will immediately die until there is some kind of update on the story, because your last sentence is, I'm willing to bet, the only thing anyone around here believes.
 

Bergs

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Jul 22, 2005
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The story is about Rondo pulling a gun on a woman. How can you take the gun talk out of a story about someone pulling a gun on someone else?
Seriously? Every discussion about a crime (allegedly) being committed with a firearm doesn't need to devolve into a 2nd Ammendment debate. I promise.

Of course, this thread will immediately die until there is some kind of update on the story.
As pretty much any news thread likely should in the absence of new information or relevant discussion, no?
 

RetractableRoof

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You keep talking about "responsible gun owners?, but looking to make laws that affect responsible car owners. I assume you would agree that someone that doesn't register their gun would be, prima facie, irresponsible, correct? I'm sure you would agree that someone who drives without a driver's license, or without insurance, would be irresponsible? There are estimated to be around 400 million guns in the US, more than 1 per person. Around 6 million guns are registered. So, the vast majority of gun owners are not responsible from the outset. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/guns-per-capita

I have no issue with putting governors on cars. Of course, you are now eliminating the vast majority of high end, "responsible" car owners who like to use the track on the weekends (just like the gun range, for that matter).

How about I agree to that, if you and the NRA agree to make it equally as hard to buy, register, insure and license every gun owner, as the states now do with cars? Shooting tests, background checks, student safety for months prior to license, registering them, insuring them, annual fees, renewals, everything.
A gun possessed without registration, without appropriate License to Carry, without possession of a federal FID card (where required) is NOT an example of responsible gun ownership. That is such an unreasonable straw man - that it's beneath you to even have typed the words. 400 million unregistered guns (your figure) are 400 million guns that need to be removed from society. Since we are in a sports forum, how many of the 3 guns used in Milwaukee the other night outside the arena were legal? My implicit assertion is that the owners of the properly registered 6 million (your figure) guns embody a high degree of responsible gun ownership. Show me facts that disagree. Don't include in the irresponsible pool folks that are breaking the law by mere possession of an unregistered gun.

You keep talking about responsible car drivers. There is a thread here on SoSH bragging about "how fast have you driven?" I myself am guilty of stupidly indulging a curiosity about what driving X speed feels like. I'm in the guilty group. But I submit that if you've driven over 80 MPH in an area where the speed limit was 65 MPH (or 70 in a 55) then you are not in the pool of responsible car owners. It often falls into the category of reckless endangerment in many jurisdictions (and I'm not interested in the semantics of whether the tipping point is 80 or 85, the point holds). Further, as a baseline, if anytime in the last 12 months you have driven 45 MPH in the posted 25 MPH in many residential areas of towns and cities across the US, then you are not in the responsible car owner pool. Or 55 in the 35 posted. As a culture we look at 45 in a 25 like we do a white lie - no the dress doesn't make you look heavy. We just know we are late for the appointment and we can shave 2 minutes off the clock, and press a little harder on the gas. After all modern cars can stop much faster than the old cars, that 25 MPH is outdated, right? So now, tell me exactly how many responsible drivers there are in the US again? That's before we look at any person who is driving uninsured, without a valid license, etc. [Edit: Should we even discuss how many are still driving while talking on the phone which is illegal in many states and a significant danger to others?] So in your argument you want to cite millions and millions of responsible car owners (hand waiving away their actual driving habits), contrasting them with (in this post) millions of illegally possessed guns and their owners. It's a weak (perhaps intellectually dishonest) approach IMO. A reasonable discussion is not had with this approach.

Snap your fingers and let's make all illegal guns disappear. I'm personally happy with that. The world is a better place instantly. Meanwhile, how many of those unnecessary car deaths still occur? Again, let's do the same with fentanyl, better place again (until people move on to the next drug of choice of course). The point remains: we rage against some things in the face of other more significant/serious problems happening right next to us.

I again decline to get into a general gun discussion: however your last paragraph again illustrates how little you know about guns and the environment to legally own them. Did you know (in MA at least) that in order to get a license to carry (LTC) you are required to pass a safety class and a shooting test by most Chiefs of Police? I don't know if it is a state law (should be) or a federal law (should be). In fairness, the safety course is often a short 3-4 hour class (but operating a gun safely is orders of magnitude easier than operating a car - one safety switch, one control point, no phone/radio :D ). Did you know that to purchase a gun in MA the registered dealer does a computer check with the federal government (can't recall if it is the FBI or the ATF) portal to determine current eligibility status before the purchase can be completed? Did you know that to get your LTC the Chiefs of Police in MA do an FBI background check - and it often takes many months (from a completed application) before you get that license? There are expiration/renewal periods for LTCs as well. Did you know that certain Chiefs of Police in MA are known to have a "no LTC" rule in their towns/cities - regardless of your suitability or responsible nature. Insurance/annual fees for a gun are ridiculous on it's face and are IMO tools to prevent people from legally owning them. We carry car insurance because we individually have interactions with others around our vehicles thousands of times a day - where statistical failure is determined by the state to be high enough to justify it. Legal and responsible gun owners due not have a fraction of the interactions with others (with respect to the gun) that car owners due. Finally, I won't speak for others, but people I know and certainly the people I know well have no issue with going through steps to ensure that gun ownership is a responsible endeavor (and for me, I'd entertain an argument about whether these steps should be consistent on a federal level not the local levels of judgement). Like everything the devil is in the details... belonging in a general gun discussion.

Signed: a person who possesses no guns, but does possess a LTC.
 
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RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
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Seriously? Every discussion about a crime (allegedly) being committed with a firearm doesn't need to devolve into a 2nd Ammendment debate. I promise.
Hard to say this without snark (and none is intended). I'm aiming for wry amusement here...

Also, every discussion of an athlete on this forum doesn't need to include his political views (or perceived ones), or his stance on vaccination. I promise.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
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Apr 12, 2005
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A gun possessed without registration, without appropriate License to Carry, without possession of a federal FID card (where required) is NOT an example of responsible gun ownership. That is such an unreasonable straw man - that it's beneath you to even have typed the words. 400 million unregistered guns (your figure) are 400 million guns that need to be removed from society. Since we are in a sports forum, how many of the 3 guns used in Milwaukee the other night outside the arena were legal? My implicit assertion is that the owners of the properly registered 6 million (your figure) guns embody a high degree of responsible gun ownership. Show me facts that disagree. Don't include in the irresponsible pool folks that are breaking the law by mere possession of an unregistered gun.

You keep talking about responsible car drivers. There is a thread here on SoSH bragging about "how fast have you driven?" I myself am guilty of stupidly indulging a curiosity about what driving X speed feels like. I'm in the guilty group. But I submit that if you've driven over 80 MPH in an area where the speed limit was 65 MPH (or 70 in a 55) then you are not in the pool of responsible car owners. It often falls into the category of reckless endangerment in many jurisdictions (and I'm not interested in the semantics of whether the tipping point is 80 or 85, the point holds). Further, as a baseline, if anytime in the last 12 months you have driven 45 MPH in the posted 25 MPH in many residential areas of towns and cities across the US, then you are not in the responsible car owner pool. Or 55 in the 35 posted. As a culture we look at 45 in a 25 like we do a white lie - no the dress doesn't make you look heavy. We just know we are late for the appointment and we can shave 2 minutes off the clock, and press a little harder on the gas. After all modern cars can stop much faster than the old cars, that 25 MPH is outdated, right? So now, tell me exactly how many responsible drivers there are in the US again? That's before we look at any person who is driving uninsured, without a valid license, etc. [Edit: Should we even discuss how many are still driving while talking on the phone which is illegal in many states and a significant danger to others?] So in your argument you want to cite millions and millions of responsible car owners (hand waiving away their actual driving habits), contrasting them with (in this post) millions of illegally possessed guns and their owners. It's a weak (perhaps intellectually dishonest) approach IMO. A reasonable discussion is not had with this approach.

Snap your fingers and let's make all illegal guns disappear. I'm personally happy with that. The world is a better place instantly. Meanwhile, how many of those unnecessary car deaths still occur? Again, let's do the same with fentanyl, better place again (until people move on to the next drug of choice of course). The point remains: we rage against some things in the face of other more significant/serious problems happening right next to us.

I again decline to get into a general gun discussion: however your last paragraph again illustrates how little you know about guns and the environment to legally own them. Did you know (in MA at least) that in order to get a license to carry (LTC) you are required to pass a safety class and a shooting test by most Chiefs of Police? I don't know if it is a state law (should be) or a federal law (should be). In fairness, the safety course is often a short 3-4 hour class (but operating a gun safely is orders of magnitude easier than operating a car - one safety switch, one control point, no phone/radio :D ). Did you know that to purchase a gun in MA the registered dealer does a computer check with the federal government (can't recall if it is the FBI or the ATF) portal to determine current eligibility status before the purchase can be completed? Did you know that to get your LTC the Chiefs of Police in MA do an FBI background check - and it often takes many months (from a completed application) before you get that license? There are expiration/renewal periods for LTCs as well. Did you know that certain Chiefs of Police in MA are known to have a "no LTC" rule in their towns/cities - regardless of your suitability or responsible nature. Insurance/annual fees for a gun are ridiculous on it's face and are IMO tools to prevent people from legally owning them. We carry car insurance because we individually have interactions with others around our vehicles thousands of times a day - where statistical failure is determined by the state to be high enough to justify it. Legal and responsible gun owners due not have a fraction of the interactions with others (with respect to the gun) that car owners due. Finally, I won't speak for others, but people I know and certainly the people I know well have no issue with going through steps to ensure that gun ownership is a responsible endeavor (and for me, I'd entertain an argument about whether these steps should be consistent on a federal level not the local levels of judgement). Like everything the devil is in the details... belonging in a general gun discussion.

Signed: a person who possesses no guns, but does possess a LTC.
Just to be clear, they are not my figures. I even gave a handy link to the figures, and can provide, I don't know, dozens more that show the same thing.

Further, you think I'm being intellectually dishonest, and creating a strawman, while you're calling basically everyone who has ever sped in their car "irresponsible" while poo-pooing the fact that literally 98% of all of the guns in the entire country are unregistered? You completely ignore that you know, transportation, is not inherently dangerous, and neither are vehicles, and they have about a hundred uses from getting kids to school, to delivering groceries to elderly, to getting people to and from work, etc. whereas guns offer what exactly? The ability to shoot at a range or hunt, and then........

Given your very concerning feelings towards how people drive, would it even remotely surprise you to know that MORE people were killed by guns in the US in 2020, than they were in car crashes? 38k car crash deaths to 45k for gun deaths? And you want to compare the two? When the reality is far, far more people are using their cars every single day, as opposed to using their guns? Just to be clear, not my figures either:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/early-estimate-2021-traffic-fatalities#:~:text=NHTSA projects that an estimated,Fatality Analysis Reporting System's history.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

I know exactly what the law is in MA. You know what else I know? Massachusetts is dead last in gun ownership in the United States, because of it, also not "my figures":

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/gun-ownership-by-state

You talk about "unnecessary car deaths." I don't know any "necessary" car deaths, I do know that as a society, we've accepted the risk/benefit analysis of those deaths though, and the benefits to the hundreds of millions of people seems to weight out. Considering there are only 6 million registered guns in the US, and there are more people dying from guns than there are from cars, I'm trying to figure out the risk/benefit analysis there?

Edit: Sorry, just saw your post CR...
 

TSC

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Oct 25, 2007
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I can't, and never will understand the fascination people have with guns, outside of folks who hunt. Is Rondo hunting deer in his spare time, going to the range for target practice as a hobby in his spare time?

Rondo has made over $110,000,000 in his career (not including anything but his salary) and he needs a gun for what, exactly? If it's true, fuck him and fuck this country's culture so that everyone thinks they need a gun for some reason or another.
Mitch Marner - a pro hockey player- literally got car-jacked at gun point yesterday.

All the money in the world isn’t going to save you if someone really wants your shit.
 

NomarsFool

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Dec 21, 2001
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I'm skeptical the story went down exactly as reported by the one side, as it makes Rondo seem like an absolute, complete, deranged lunatic. But, even if exaggerated, his actions are completely heinous and really unfortunate for his children.
 

fairlee76

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The rationalizing by Cousins mentioned in this piece is breathtaking and really messed up. He goes from telling his ex "I'm going to put a bullet in your head" to spouting the following bullshit. The "we've all been there" line is such garbage. Then again, I don't have kids so maybe I just can't "speak on that."

"Don’t get me wrong, I’m 100 percent against domestic violence. Like 100 percent. I watched my mother go through that as a child. So when it comes to that, I’m the first advocate for that. But with that being said, I said the wrong thing. Heat of the moment. We’ve all done it… When it comes to your kids, it’s a whole ‘nother situation. I’m pretty sure everybody with kids can speak on that. But it was still wrong.”
 

RetractableRoof

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The rationalizing by Cousins mentioned in this piece is breathtaking and really messed up. He goes from telling his ex "I'm going to put a bullet in your head" to spouting the following bullshit. The "we've all been there" line is such garbage. Then again, I don't have kids so maybe I just can't "speak on that."

"Don’t get me wrong, I’m 100 percent against domestic violence. Like 100 percent. I watched my mother go through that as a child. So when it comes to that, I’m the first advocate for that. But with that being said, I said the wrong thing. Heat of the moment. We’ve all done it… When it comes to your kids, it’s a whole ‘nother situation. I’m pretty sure everybody with kids can speak on that. But it was still wrong.”
Taking away someone's family (or them feeling like you have) is about the worst thing you can do to someone. I think it's fair to judge someone for their actions and draw the the conclusions you've drawn. Maybe judging their feelings and the depth of them, and the irrational place it can take a person might be saved for when you've walked in their shoes (which you hopefully never have to experience). Even having walked in some version of the hell that I presume his family separation shoes are, I can say I've never threatened the mother of my children. But it's also fair to say that our life experiences leave us with different tools/lenses with which to approach life and when one experiences violence in the family at a young age, it is a tough cycle to break. YMMV.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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Taking away someone's family (or them feeling like you have) is about the worst thing you can do to someone. I think it's fair to judge someone for their actions and draw the the conclusions you've drawn. Maybe judging their feelings and the depth of them, and the irrational place it can take a person might be saved for when you've walked in their shoes (which you hopefully never have to experience). Even having walked in some version of the hell that I presume his family separation shoes are, I can say I've never threatened the mother of my children. But it's also fair to say that our life experiences leave us with different tools/lenses with which to approach life and when one experiences violence in the family at a young age, it is a tough cycle to break. YMMV.
This is perfectly said. To Cousins, maybe “we’ve all been there” equates to threatening to kill someone without literally meaning it. To someone growing up in suburbia (as an Example), “we’ve all been there” could mean getting into a verbal argument with the neighbor about their shrubs. It’s all relative. It’s why as a dog-lover, rescue advocate, etc…..I am proud of how Michael Vick learned as a young adult something he wasn’t taught as a child (or as a young adult) and to see what he’s done for animals and rescues over the past decade plus which he continues to do.
 

fairlee76

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3,633
jp
Taking away someone's family (or them feeling like you have) is about the worst thing you can do to someone. I think it's fair to judge someone for their actions and draw the the conclusions you've drawn. Maybe judging their feelings and the depth of them, and the irrational place it can take a person might be saved for when you've walked in their shoes (which you hopefully never have to experience). Even having walked in some version of the hell that I presume his family separation shoes are, I can say I've never threatened the mother of my children. But it's also fair to say that our life experiences leave us with different tools/lenses with which to approach life and when one experiences violence in the family at a young age, it is a tough cycle to break. YMMV.
I don't remember the "taking someone's family away" detail. I do remember that the kid was around 4 years old and that the estranged girlfriend had accused Cousins of choking her. Even in the best of situations, most parents I know would be hesitant to let their 4 year-old out of their sight to attend a wedding. I was mostly reacting to "heat of the moment; we've all done it (threatened to kill someone)" as I think/hope that is false. Last I read, DeMarcus has visitation rights with the kid so I don't think this rises to the level of taking away his kids.

To me, Vick handled his situation differently. He owned it and paid a heavy price. The analogy would be if Vick said "meh, everyone does it" when asked about dogfighting a few years after he was released from federal prison.
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
I don't remember the "taking someone's family away" detail. I do remember that the kid was around 4 years old and that the estranged girlfriend had accused Cousins of choking her. Even in the best of situations, most parents I know would be hesitant to let their 4 year-old out of their sight to attend a wedding. I was mostly reacting to "heat of the moment; we've all done it (threatened to kill someone)" as I think/hope that is false. Last I read, DeMarcus has visitation rights with the kid so I don't think this rises to the level of taking away his kids.

To me, Vick handled his situation differently. He owned it and paid a heavy price. The analogy would be if Vick said "meh, everyone does it" when asked about dogfighting a few years after he was released from federal prison.
Forgive me if this comes across as patronizing, I don't mean it to.
  • Not having kids, not having visitation disagreements/conversation, not having to balance things with an ex who may not agree with parenting views - you might not understand. Put succinctly, in my case, I went from seeing my children every single day to instantly becoming pretty much an every other weekend father. How many days in a row from drop off to pick up on the following weekend? 11.5 days between hugs or kisses goodnight in my case. Being what I imagine is a very normal father, that certainly FELT like my family was being taken away. Others may have felt differently about their situation, I only speak for myself. It's not a detail, it is a reality. Whatever your normal or pre-existing life with your children is, there is an abrupt shift and your new time with them is some amount less, often a lot less.
  • People with abnormal work schedules often are limited in the visitation available. If for example you travel for a living, it can be held against you in custody discussions - for example, sole physical custody given to the parent who offers the child the most stability. So for an athlete who's schedule is perpetually up in the air, it can mean visitation is tenuous at best. They are often trapped, their earning power indicating high support levels but the very thing that brings the money in can become an obstacle to seeing the children. That's before you factor in that an ex might actively do what they can to make things difficult. Sometimes people with weird schedules get blocks of time instead - perhaps when the season is over or something. But that blocking of time would imply the child goes without seeing one parent for an even longer consecutive period of time - there are just no right answers available for parents who can't agree to put the child first, or when work requirements simply don't lend themselves to a solution where all are well served. If this is Cousins situation (his work schedule being an obstacle in visitation), it would be a constant source of frustration for him (as with most people I imagine).
  • Obviously custody arrangements are often contentious and meticulously worked out and approved by the court. There is often little compensation for unforeseen circumstances - such as a wedding, funeral, birthday invite for a friend that only exists on one ex's time, etc. The man wanted his children at his wedding. I don't know if it was hastily arranged and as such couldn't go through the court for a temporary order (and I know that the judge I was in front of didn't take kindly to being bothered with such small items), but absent any actual details of their situation it doesn't seem an unreasonable ask to want your children at your own wedding. Absent the details, it would still seem a high tension issue (which might already be on top of pre-existing tensions). Also, you say "most parents would be hesitant to let their 4-year old out of their sight to attend a wedding". Except HE is one of the parents... you are almost sounding like his parental opinion/desire doesn't matter. Parents who want what is for the best for the child can often find common ground for these kinds of exception cases. Parents who are still in fight mode often cannot find that common ground. Parents who simply disagree with what actually IS best for the child are in for a hell of a ride in finding common ground. It doesn't sound like the two of them were in a place to find common ground (might be his doing, who knows).
None of that justifies his actions, I'm only trying to provide context from one set of shoes to someone who has never worn those particular shoes. IMO, "We've all been there" is not a copout, he is telling the listener/reporter that he was in over his head, he was overwhelmed, that "in the moment" due to the specific circumstances or maybe the totality of them he wasn't able to get from rejection of point A to the resolution of point B in the conversation with her in a rational/appropriate way. He IS owning his failure, implicitly saying "we've all been at that failure point". If you choose instead to read that as him denying responsibility because "we've all been there" is a copout, then so be it. Again, I've only tried to add sprinkling of potential context to what might be a foreign situation to you.
 
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fairlee76

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2005
3,633
jp
Forgive me if this comes across as patronizing, I don't mean it to.
  • Not having kids, not having visitation disagreements/conversation, not having to balance things with an ex who may not agree with parenting views - you might not understand. Put succinctly, in my case, I went from seeing my children every single day to instantly becoming pretty much an every other weekend father. How many days in a row from drop off to pick up on the following weekend? 11.5 days between hugs or kisses goodnight in my case. Being what I imagine is a very normal father, that certainly FELT like my family was being taken away. Others may have felt differently about their situation, I only speak for myself. It's not a detail, it is a reality. Whatever your normal or pre-existing life with your children is, there is an abrupt shift and your new time with them is some amount less, often a lot less.
  • People with abnormal work schedules often are limited in the visitation available. If for example you travel for a living, it can be held against you in custody discussions - for example, sole physical custody given to the parent who offers the child the most stability. So for an athlete who's schedule is perpetually up in the air, it can mean visitation is tenuous at best. They are often trapped, their earning power indicating high support levels but the very thing that brings the money in can become an obstacle to seeing the children. That's before you factor in that an ex might actively do what they can to make things difficult. Sometimes people with weird schedules get blocks of time instead - perhaps when the season is over or something. But that blocking of time would imply the child goes without seeing one parent for an even longer consecutive period of time - there are just no right answers available for parents who can't agree to put the child first, or when work requirements simply don't lend themselves to a solution where all are well served. If this is Cousins situation (his work schedule being an obstacle in visitation), it would be a constant source of frustration for him (as with most people I imagine).
  • Obviously custody arrangements are often contentious and meticulously worked out and approved by the court. There is often little compensation for unforeseen circumstances - such as a wedding, funeral, birthday invite for a friend that only exists on one ex's time, etc. The man wanted his children at his wedding. I don't know if it was hastily arranged and as such couldn't go through the court for a temporary order (and I know that the judge I was in front of didn't take kindly to being bothered with such small items), but absent any actual details of their situation it doesn't seem an unreasonable ask to want your children at your own wedding. Absent the details, it would still seem a high tension issue (which might already be on top of pre-existing tensions). Also, you say "most parents would be hesitant to let their 4-year old out of their sight to attend a wedding". Except HE is one of the parents... you are almost sounding like his parental opinion/desire doesn't matter. Parents who want what is for the best for the child can often find common ground for these kinds of exception cases. Parents who are still in fight mode often cannot find that common ground. Parents who simply disagree with what actually IS best for the child are in for a hell of a ride in finding common ground. It doesn't sound like the two of them were in a place to find common ground (might be his doing, who knows).
None of that justifies his actions, I'm only trying to provide context from one set of shoes to someone who has never worn those particular shoes. IMO, "We've all been there" is not a copout, he is telling the listener/reporter that he was in over his head, he was overwhelmed, that "in the moment" due to the specific circumstances or maybe the totality of them he wasn't able to get from rejection of point A to the resolution of point B in the conversation with her in a rational/appropriate way. He IS owning his failure, implicitly saying "we've all been at that failure point". If you choose instead to read that as him denying responsibility because "we've all been there" is a copout, then so be it. Again, I've only tried to add sprinkling of potential context to what might be a foreign situation to you.
Not patronizing at all and I appreciate your perspective/experience. Thanks for sharing and I am sorry you had to experience that scenario.

I fully admit to not being in a "benefit of the doubt" mode as I get older and I think that is where we are diverging on the "we've all been there" quote in this particular discussion.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,081
Taking away someone's family (or them feeling like you have) is about the worst thing you can do to someone. I think it's fair to judge someone for their actions and draw the the conclusions you've drawn. Maybe judging their feelings and the depth of them, and the irrational place it can take a person might be saved for when you've walked in their shoes (which you hopefully never have to experience). Even having walked in some version of the hell that I presume his family separation shoes are, I can say I've never threatened the mother of my children. But it's also fair to say that our life experiences leave us with different tools/lenses with which to approach life and when one experiences violence in the family at a young age, it is a tough cycle to break. YMMV.
Very well said.
 

Bergs

funky and cold
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2005
21,714
Forgive me if this comes across as patronizing, I don't mean it to.
  • Not having kids, not having visitation disagreements/conversation, not having to balance things with an ex who may not agree with parenting views - you might not understand. Put succinctly, in my case, I went from seeing my children every single day to instantly becoming pretty much an every other weekend father. How many days in a row from drop off to pick up on the following weekend? 11.5 days between hugs or kisses goodnight in my case. Being what I imagine is a very normal father, that certainly FELT like my family was being taken away. Others may have felt differently about their situation, I only speak for myself. It's not a detail, it is a reality. Whatever your normal or pre-existing life with your children is, there is an abrupt shift and your new time with them is some amount less, often a lot less.
  • People with abnormal work schedules often are limited in the visitation available. If for example you travel for a living, it can be held against you in custody discussions - for example, sole physical custody given to the parent who offers the child the most stability. So for an athlete who's schedule is perpetually up in the air, it can mean visitation is tenuous at best. They are often trapped, their earning power indicating high support levels but the very thing that brings the money in can become an obstacle to seeing the children. That's before you factor in that an ex might actively do what they can to make things difficult. Sometimes people with weird schedules get blocks of time instead - perhaps when the season is over or something. But that blocking of time would imply the child goes without seeing one parent for an even longer consecutive period of time - there are just no right answers available for parents who can't agree to put the child first, or when work requirements simply don't lend themselves to a solution where all are well served. If this is Cousins situation (his work schedule being an obstacle in visitation), it would be a constant source of frustration for him (as with most people I imagine).
  • Obviously custody arrangements are often contentious and meticulously worked out and approved by the court. There is often little compensation for unforeseen circumstances - such as a wedding, funeral, birthday invite for a friend that only exists on one ex's time, etc. The man wanted his children at his wedding. I don't know if it was hastily arranged and as such couldn't go through the court for a temporary order (and I know that the judge I was in front of didn't take kindly to being bothered with such small items), but absent any actual details of their situation it doesn't seem an unreasonable ask to want your children at your own wedding. Absent the details, it would still seem a high tension issue (which might already be on top of pre-existing tensions). Also, you say "most parents would be hesitant to let their 4-year old out of their sight to attend a wedding". Except HE is one of the parents... you are almost sounding like his parental opinion/desire doesn't matter. Parents who want what is for the best for the child can often find common ground for these kinds of exception cases. Parents who are still in fight mode often cannot find that common ground. Parents who simply disagree with what actually IS best for the child are in for a hell of a ride in finding common ground. It doesn't sound like the two of them were in a place to find common ground (might be his doing, who knows).
None of that justifies his actions, I'm only trying to provide context from one set of shoes to someone who has never worn those particular shoes. IMO, "We've all been there" is not a copout, he is telling the listener/reporter that he was in over his head, he was overwhelmed, that "in the moment" due to the specific circumstances or maybe the totality of them he wasn't able to get from rejection of point A to the resolution of point B in the conversation with her in a rational/appropriate way. He IS owning his failure, implicitly saying "we've all been at that failure point". If you choose instead to read that as him denying responsibility because "we've all been there" is a copout, then so be it. Again, I've only tried to add sprinkling of potential context to what might be a foreign situation to you.
This is a really good post. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
 

BigJimEd

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
4,444
@RetractableRoof Thanks for the post. Good insight there.
However, I'm going to disagree to a some degree in that I think that Cousins is trying to minimize and normalize his actions. Yes, custody battles can be extremely ugly and one can feel like they are taking your family away because sometimes they are.
Of course, everyone has said things in the heat of the moment. No one has claimed otherwise but no, not everyone has threatened to put a bullet in someone's head. Yes, life experiences can be different and as you mentioned the circle of DV can be hard to break but, to me, that doesn't make it any less notable or less likely that he may have meant it. He threatened to kill her. That is inexcusable and should not be minimized or normalized.

absent any actual details of their situation it doesn't seem an unreasonable ask to want your children at your own wedding.
But that's just it. We are absent details on the situation. If it is important to have your son at your wedding, it seems reasonable you'd planned your wedding around when that might be.

Also, you say "most parents would be hesitant to let their 4-year old out of their sight to attend a wedding". Except HE is one of the parents.
Except it is most parents would be hesitant to let their 4 year old out of their sight with the man that has choked that parent (according to them). Father part is secondary in this instance. If there is any possibly way I can prevent it, I'm not letting my child alone with someone who has these type of anger issues.
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
@RetractableRoof Thanks for the post. Good insight there.
However, I'm going to disagree to a some degree in that I think that Cousins is trying to minimize and normalize his actions. Yes, custody battles can be extremely ugly and one can feel like they are taking your family away because sometimes they are.
Of course, everyone has said things in the heat of the moment. No one has claimed otherwise but no, not everyone has threatened to put a bullet in someone's head. Yes, life experiences can be different and as you mentioned the circle of DV can be hard to break but, to me, that doesn't make it any less notable or less likely that he may have meant it. He threatened to kill her. That is inexcusable and should not be minimized or normalized.

But that's just it. We are absent details on the situation. If it is important to have your son at your wedding, it seems reasonable you'd planned your wedding around when that might be.

Except it is most parents would be hesitant to let their 4 year old out of their sight with the man that has choked that parent (according to them). Father part is secondary in this instance. If there is any possibly way I can prevent it, I'm not letting my child alone with someone who has these type of anger issues.
I don't think anyone here has tried to do the bolded. The conversation drifted (because of my posts I guess) to whether or not "we've all been there", and providing context for someone who "hasn't been there". You think his words are trying to excuse the behavior, or rationalize it. I don't think he is - the very last words in the quoted piece are simply "But it was still wrong.". Through my eyes, that's not someone who is saying, "sure, I did it, and it was ok because XYZ", it's acknowledgement that he was wrong. Frankly there can be no way that any piece is written to properly convey remorse that would satisfy everyone reading it. He didn't say X, he should have said Y, he didn't grovel enough, he didn't contribute X dollars to a woman's shelter, he didn't walk a mile over glass, he didn't make the proper amount of eye contact. He didn't... What he did say is that he was wrong, his actions were wrong. So as a member of society, I can either accept his words or not. My opinion really doesn't matter to him (nor should it). But if I'm going to judge the validity of his feelings in the moment of those events - that's a whole other matter. Being able to understand the context of those kinds of situations in general is important enough to not hand waive away his context because we've "not been there".

You have no idea what his professional schedule is to know what is available to him when scheduling a wedding. You have no idea what his visitation arrangements are. You have no idea what limitations are in place because of the alleged choking event (I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just not willing to state it DID happen because of my ignorance of the facts). You have no idea if the date was special to the bride because of XYZ. You don't know if there was only 1 weekend available for the brides Grandma to be present. We just don't know. And so it's pretty easy to be cavalier and say he should have planned better. Sure, you are right, he should have. And yet, life still happens, and he was trying to get to a place where his children could be at his wedding. It was a factor in his failure - and whether or not it was self inflicted due to previous actions is part of his emotional calculus.

With respect to your last paragraph, I fear we are treading (again) further into V&N territory (albeit without rancor) - that said...

I can tell you that being on the wrong end of a physically AND mentally abusive (on a daily basis) upbringing (thanks mom, I still love you!) I've got pretty high standards when it comes to family safety situations. I can tell you watching my mom be assaulted has led to led to high standards with respect to violence in the home. Watching my mom put herself between a drunk, violent husband and myself raises my personal bar on these situations. One approach to these situations is to say that the parent (because women do abuse children as well) can never be with their children again (seems like your bucket). If that's our approach, I'm fine with it - as long as we can all agree there are other criteria as well - which permanently bar parental rights. Clearly perfection is a standard we are holding all parents to. However, there are parents who have issues every day with drug abuse, alcohol abuse, anger issues, mental health issues - many times in the presence of their children. Do ANY of those parents get a second chance? As a parent, you better believe harm would come to someone who harmed my kids. But unless we are revoking parental rights completely, yes that parent has a reasonable expectation that some accommodation is possible (though maybe not this time) for exception cases. The father part is NOT secondary unless you are revoking parental rights - unless temporary suspension is in place due to the court addressing the choking claim for example, or he hasn't completed required counselling, parenting, remediation classes, etc. Further, excising the father (and the fathers extended family) from the child's life has it's own impact. Even in spite of the events of my upbringing I'd be the first to tell you that my life would have been destroyed had I been removed from my home and mother (who was abusive) and siblings and extended family (none of who could have taken us children in). The drunk (she divorced) was my stepdad of two years, no loss there.

There is no excusing violence in a home, but it is naïve to think that there are simple black and white solutions for it.

Edit: And with this post I think I'm done here... lots of things are being stirred up in these posts and I don't think I can add anything more without needing to give someone qualified a co-pay :D
 
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