Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

 
But you're not prepared to listen to those arguments. The guy is a sexist dirtball, a pig, an asshole...and very good at his job. Is it really beyond the realm of comprehension that an employer caters to one of it's best employees?
 
Again, the team voted for him to be a captain (to make things easy, I'm just calling it that from now on). Did you expect Philbin to say, "Alright guys, we're voting for captains. You can't pick Richie because he's an asshole." Again, that would have caused a serious shit storm on the team. Could he have assigned captains himself? Probably. But most athletes are creatures of habits. Philbin's probably had teams "voting for captains" since he was a teenager, and considering he's at the pinnacle of his profession - NFL head coach - it's probably worked well for him.
 

 
I guess my position is simple -- if a guy is a captain and he sticks a golf club in the crotch of a woman against her will at a team charity event, he can't be captain any more.  I don't buy the notion that a head coach lacks the authority to strip a captain of a captaincy.  I think we can all come up with hypotheticals where one would agree it's required no matter what the team might vote.  This to me seems like something where you do it.  If the argument is that a coach doing that makes too many ripples in the locker room, maybe that is what the Dolphins thought.  As I said, that to me is culpable.
 

 
But it's just as likely that Incognito Jr was explaining the situation to his father and said, "I dunno why he's doing this to me. He's an emotional mess. He's even tried to kill himself before."
 
It could be an innocuous comment used as proof that Martin is unstable, or it could prove that Incog Jr. is a terrible human being and he had no problem pushing Martin towards a ledge. I agree with you. It would go a long way in our kangaroo court towards finding Incog Jr guilty of...something. I just don't think that information ever comes out.

 
I think that's possible.  I don't think I would regard that as innocuous though.  

 

[Super Nomario]

 
People blaming the Dolphins for not vetoing Incognito as a captain are grasping at straws to blame the team. This process has been in place, and has succeeded, for decades. If blame falls anywhere (and in this case, I don't think it should), it should be on his fellow captains. You nominate multiple captains to represent different groups of the team and to hold the other captains in check. If there's a failure here, it's on those men.
 
As for people blaming the structure of captains or "leadership councils" itself? Sure, it may occasionally be "boys leading boys", but this is a structure that has been in place - and is very effective when efficiently run - for decades. Sometimes it can turn into a good ol' boys club. If that happens, it makes more sense to blame the men responsible, not the system in place. Again, run properly, it is an effective tool for a team of 53 non-uniform voices. The captains slipped on their duties and weren't paying attention to what was going on around them. They probably weren't taking the roles very seriously. Oftentimes, players aren't that qualified for the role to begin with. You'll see plenty of people on "leadership councils" because they are one of the more skilled players, not because they are one of the more skilled diplomats. That doesn't fall on the coaching staff, it falls on the team of voters. Hey, we've all regretting voting for someone I'd assume.
 
You say, "At best, they were willfully blind, profoundly careless, and indifferent to a real risk." I say, at best they were doing things that have been done for decades and this could have happened in any locker room in the NFL. Does that make them any less careless or indifferent to this risk? No, probably not. But it's understandable how this could be overlooked when it's been happening for decades and there's never been a publicized incident like this. You don't know what you don't know.

I agree that the fault here is on the captains, but I don't think that excludes the head coach from some blame. Belichick had some comments on the subject and how he works with his captains:

 
Now, a lot of times those conversations also come up with the captains, whether they bring them up first or I bring them up first. We all talk as captains and they are representatives of the players -- you can’t talk to all 53 guys, but they represent the players and will say ‘How do we feel about this? How do we feel about that?’ 

The head coach has a responsibility to work with the captains and address matters. If he's just letting the players vote for the leadership council and not working with the leadership council to make sure they're delivering the right messages in the right way, he's not doing his job. I don't know if that happened here or not, or to what extent Philbin did or did not act appropriately.
 
The other issue here is roster construction. The other offensive players on the leadership council are third-year C Mike Pouncey and second-year QB Ryan Tannehill, and perusing the roster I don't see a lot of other good options on that side of the ball (Clabo and Wallace are new, Garner and Moore are backups). If Incognito's out of line, is Tannehill or Pouncey really going to tell him so? Couple that with a second-year head coach, and it seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

 
I guess my position is simple -- if a guy is a captain and he sticks a golf club in the crotch of a woman against her will at a team charity event, he can't be captain any more.  I don't buy the notion that a head coach lacks the authority to strip a captain of a captaincy.  I think we can all come up with hypotheticals where one would agree it's required no matter what the team might vote.  This to me seems like something where you do it.  If the argument is that a coach doing that makes too many ripples in the locker room, maybe that is what the Dolphins thought.  As I said, that to me is culpable.
 
 
I think that's possible.  I don't think I would regard that as innocuous though.  

 
Was he a captain at the time? I really don't know.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

 
Was he a captain at the time? I really don't know.

 
Well, that's actually a good question.  I was assuming it.  Not sure how much it matters, but I think it's pretty obvious I'm not that familiar with internal locker room captain procedure.

 

[JimBoSox9]

I don't think he was.  The golf incident happened during the 12-13 season, and the Incognito Leadership Council references seemed to indicate he was voted captain prior to the 13-14 season due to several veteran departures (Long, et al).

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

 
 
You continue to express incredulity over the fact pattern, and in my opinion from reading your posts, it's because you've either never been emotionally abused, or you lack empathy towards those abused - not in a general sense, but in the specific sense of the word 'empathy', whereby you cannot put yourself in that situation and understand why they act or feel the way they do. I also don't mean that as an insult in the slightest.
 
It is not at all unusual to try to kill abuse with kindness. The futile hope that, if you're just nice enough and friendly enough, maybe the torment will end. It didn't work today, and it didn't work yesterday, and it didn't work the hundreds of times before that, but maybe if I just shoot the shit and pretend like nothing's wrong, it won't happen again tomorrow.
 
If the bullying was as extensive as Martin seems to be alleging, ignoring a text from Incognito may have been justification for even more torment, in which case answering the texts are just survival instinct.
 
Ever hear of Stockholm Syndrome? Or, more broadly beyond kidnapping, traumatic bonding? This is another plausible explanation for Martin engaging with Incognito so extensively. In fact, it's the reason why hazing ever happens in the first place - a traumatic event that brings people closer through the shared experience. One can be abused and still have emotional connections with the abuser, they are not mutually exclusive.
 
Those are three potential and, in my opinion, plausible explanations for the texts while still allowing for Martin's side of the story to be true. Do those potential explanations reduce your skepticism? Do you think that those are not possible explanations? 
 
Moreover, you and others continue to 'blame' or fault, Martin's reaction. The reaction of a victim is independent from the abuse. There's a distinct possibility that this is a "coverup worse than the crime" situation, especially if Martin is being as calculating and cold as his detractors are implying with trying to get a pay day immediately prior to being cut. Possible, though not likely in my opinion. It would disappoint me if this were true, in the same way a false rape accusation erodes the ability of future victims from being believed, this could introduce skepticism to bullying claims over the whole country. Even if that was the case, it does not dismiss the hazing. Or, maybe he felt abandoned and alone with no recourse in the organization and he took the only road he knew. Or, maybe he was scared to speak up and ran away as fast as he could. Maybe he has depression too. None of those potential explanations forgive or justify Incognito or the Dolphins organization behavior.
 
Lastly, and as others have pointed out in the thread, the NFL isn't just about the NFL, just like MLB isn't just about MLB. We don't care about juicing as a society (for the most part) because of the sanctity of records, we care about it because we don't want tens of thousands of high school and college students believing that PEDs are the only road to success. This scandal isn't about the NFL in isolation, it's also about shining a light on locker room hazing and emotional abuse in every sport across the country. Whether the NFL or Martin ever wished that to be the case is irrelevant, it's about that now. Vilifying Martin for his actions enables bullies.
 

 
I've repeatedly stated that I think Martin probably took a ton of shit from a bunch of dickheads in the locker room.  And fwiw, I've dealt with bullying in athletics just like everybody else.  I played 3 sports in HS and was the youngest on a couple teams.  The older kids were awful to me.  And when was older I was a little bit of a prick to other kids as well. 
 
But Christ, everybody gets so outraged and offended on this board.  I simply think Martin should have handled things differently.  If reports are true he never stated he had a problem. Then one day - after losing his starting job - he takes an unexcused absence, gets a lawyer, and hands over all the voicemails and texts.  What if a teammate, whom he generally liked, texted him and called him a "pussy" one night as a joke because of something stupid that happened after practice.  Now that teammate has to worry about being branded a bully and locker room problem because Martin gave his cell phone to his lawyer?  Martin is a bright guy and an adult with 51 other teammates, multiple coaches, and a handful of agents.  I'm sorry, I find it hard to compare his experience to Elizabeth Smart or a battered wife.  My father was a raging alcoholic who beat the fuck out of me and my mother on a consistent basis (when he wasn't in jail).  I never had one friend sleep over as a kid because of the constant violence in my house growing up.  My childhood was like a 16 year long episode of "Cops - Domestic Violence Special".  So please, get off your melodramatic soap box telling me I don't understand abuse or empathy.  If you disagree with me, fine.  I respect your opinion as well as others on this board.  But don't just assume others who view things differently are simple minded ogres who can't grasp the psychology of the situation.  
 
I'm not blaming him or saying that he isn't a victim.  I simply think if reports are true, he probably should have handled things differently.  And the route he took will make it very difficult for him to come back to football. 

 

[hunter05]

 
I've repeatedly stated that I think Martin probably took a ton of shit from a bunch of dickheads in the locker room.  And fwiw, I've dealt with bullying in athletics just like everybody else.  I played 3 sports in HS and was the youngest on a couple teams.  The older kids were awful to me.  And when was older I was a little bit of a prick to other kids as well. 
 
But Christ, everybody gets so outraged and offended on this board.  I simply think Martin should have handled things differently.  If reports are true he never stated he had a problem. Then one day - after losing his starting job - he takes an unexcused absence, gets a lawyer, and hands over all the voicemails and texts.  What if a teammate, whom he generally liked, texted him and called him a "pussy" one night as a joke because of something stupid that happened after practice.  Now that teammate has to worry about being branded a bully and locker room problem because Martin gave his cell phone to his lawyer?  Martin is a bright guy and an adult with 51 other teammates, multiple coaches, and a handful of agents.  I'm sorry, I find it hard to compare his experience to Elizabeth Smart or a battered wife.  My father was a raging alcoholic who beat the fuck out of me and my mother on a consistent basis (when he wasn't in jail).  I never had one friend sleep over as a kid because of the constant violence in my house growing up.  My childhood was like a 16 year long episode of "Cops - Domestic Violence Special".  So please, get off your melodramatic soap box telling me I don't understand abuse or empathy.  If you disagree with me, fine.  I respect your opinion as well as others on this board.  But don't just assume others who view things differently are simple minded ogres who can't grasp the psychology of the situation.  
 
I'm not blaming him or saying that he isn't a victim.  I simply think if reports are true, he probably should have handled things differently.  And the route he took will make it very difficult for him to come back to football. 

 
You've repeated this a couple of times, but I think it was more organic than that. Feels like he left, upset and having a breakdown, and goes somewhere to get help and subsequently gets advice on how to handle the situation. Maybe I'm being naive and/or misreading the situation, but I don't think it happened like you're portraying it here. Here is the USA Today's timeline of it: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-bullying-miami-dolphins/3466755/

 

[BannedbyNYYFans.com]

 
You've repeated this a couple of times, but I think it was more organic than that. Feels like he left, upset and having a breakdown, and goes somewhere to get help and subsequently gets advice on how to handle the situation. Maybe I'm being naive and/or misreading the situation, but I don't think it happened like you're portraying it here. Here is the USA Today's timeline of it: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-bullying-miami-dolphins/3466755/

You're probably right - I've been going by the Ben Volin piece the other day who was also "skeptical" of the way things went down. And you are correct that I keep repeating myself. I realize I'm in the minority and I've got nothing more to add so I'll check out of this thread. But I do hope we learn all the facts and that some good comes out of this saga. Hazing is pretty archaic and has to be removed from the game. Thankfully this mess should put an end to it.

 

[seageral]

http://espn.go.com/fantasy/football/story/_/page/TMR131114/matthew-berry-players-loves-hates-week-11-fantasy-football-rankings
 
addresses the shame that goes along with the bullying.  addressed here already but I thought it was pretty well written.
 
 
edit: adding a couple paragraphs from the story:
 
Death by a thousand cuts. It's not any one incident (though a few stand out to me, even two decades later), but the totality of it all, the seemingly nonstop barrage that comes your way. You feel helpless. It's a group against one. Tell an authority figure and you're a tattletale. They'll just come at you harder and more cleverly disguised. You feel embarrassed. You get jumpy, looking and assuming things are there when they aren't.
 
You live in fear. That's the fear I'm talking about. The fear no one seems to mention. The fear of repercussion, of making it worse, of what's coming next. Constant, debilitating fear.
 
You become distrustful, questioning people's motives. Is this just a joke on me? She couldn't really like me, right? Why are they inviting me to this party? Do they want me there or is this some elaborate prank? It permeates your every waking thought and moment. Maybe if I'm super-nice, they'll stop. Or if I play along and pretend it doesn't bother me, they'll stop. You have to do something, because you can't do nothing. You're trapped. You can't quit school, or your job or your professional football team. Right?

 

[mascho]

Thanks for posting that.  

 

[soxfan121]

Incognito files grievance over his "indefinite" suspension, correctly claiming that he cannot be suspended by the Dolphins for more than four games (per the CBA). 

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

http://espn.go.com/fantasy/football/story/_/page/TMR131114/matthew-berry-players-loves-hates-week-11-fantasy-football-rankings
 
addresses the shame that goes along with the bullying.  addressed here already but I thought it was pretty well written.
 
 
edit: adding a couple paragraphs from the story:
 
Death by a thousand cuts. It's not any one incident (though a few stand out to me, even two decades later), but the totality of it all, the seemingly nonstop barrage that comes your way. You feel helpless. It's a group against one. Tell an authority figure and you're a tattletale. They'll just come at you harder and more cleverly disguised. You feel embarrassed. You get jumpy, looking and assuming things are there when they aren't.
 
You live in fear. That's the fear I'm talking about. The fear no one seems to mention. The fear of repercussion, of making it worse, of what's coming next. Constant, debilitating fear.
 
You become distrustful, questioning people's motives. Is this just a joke on me? She couldn't really like me, right? Why are they inviting me to this party? Do they want me there or is this some elaborate prank? It permeates your every waking thought and moment. Maybe if I'm super-nice, they'll stop. Or if I play along and pretend it doesn't bother me, they'll stop. You have to do something, because you can't do nothing. You're trapped. You can't quit school, or your job or your professional football team. Right?

 
 
I am sorry that Matthew Berry was  bullied growing up.  And if Martin was indeed treated as badly as has been alleged, I am sorry for him too.  As I have stated upthread, there are likely lots of folks on this site and from all walks of life who have endured some form of bullying during their lives.  
 
That said, I will once again state that, while the alleged behavior is reprehensible, its not the same as schoolyard bullying in any way shape or form.  Much as some may want to draw parallels between their youthful experience and this situation, its just not the same.   Its a much different environment, featuring grown, alpha-male men who are physically competing every day for their careers.  Getting beaten up for lunch money or fun is not the same thing.  
 
Furthermore, we still don't know what happened here.   Was Martin a victim?  Or was he looking at a failing career, in an environment where he knew he didn't belong, and figuring how to monetize whatever potential he had left?  At this point, we still have more questions than answers.  
 
Again, many of us have endured some form of bullying over the course of our lives.  But we are not all Jonathan Martin.

 

[Reverend]

 
That said, I will once again state that, while the alleged behavior is reprehensible, its not the same as schoolyard bullying in any way shape or form.  Much as some may want to draw parallels between their youthful experience and this situation, its just not the same.   Its a much different environment, featuring grown, alpha-male men who are physically competing every day for their careers.  Getting beaten up for lunch money or fun is not the same thing.  

 
You keep saying this yes. Can you explain how you know this to be true? Because they're what? A little bit older? A lot stronger? In my experience, people are more similar than different even though people love to clutch at reasons for why their own particular experience of reality is in some way unique when really it's just life.
 
You keep bitching that people are making baseless assertions about this issue but you offer nothing here to explain why this is different that other human environments except that they're alpha male football players, ergo this is different, QED.
 
Explain it then without some je ne sais quoi bullshit--put up or shut up.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

 
You keep saying this yes. Can you explain how you know this to be true? Because they're what? A little bit older? A lot stronger? In my experience, people are more similar than different even though people love to clutch at reasons for why their own particular experience of reality is in some way unique when really it's just life.
 
You keep bitching that people are making baseless assertions about this issue but you offer nothing here to explain why this is different that other human environments except that they're alpha male football players, ergo this is different, QED.
 
Explain it then without some je ne sais quoi bullshit--put up or shut up.

 
If bullying even happened in this case, it was amongst adults, its a very unique environment and, the fact is, we don't even know if true "bullying" took place in this case.  Those are my main points and I don't think they are up for debate.  A school yard and NFL locker-room are not even close to the same environment although there may absolutely be shared behaviors by the people inhabiting both places.   
 
I have been bullied before, even in the workplace but I would argue that it isn't particularly relevant to a discussion about NFL locker-room culture.  As a side note I could argue that in your position of power as a psuedo-moderator, you are bullying right now by demanding that I "put up (whatever that means) or shut up".  
 
What if I don't?   

 

[SMU_Sox]

So your response is, it's different and it isn't up for debate? You're saying the same thing but not answering the question. Restating your point doesn't actually explain it. Look we all know you're a bright guy but I think you're being stubborn here.

 

[SMU_Sox]

And for the record, I'm actually legitimately interested in your take. I haven't posted much if at all in this thread.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

So your response is, it's different and it isn't up for debate? You're saying the same thing but not answering the question. Restating your point doesn't actually explain it. Look we all know you're a bright guy but I think you're being stubborn here.

 
That was not my response.  Forgive me if I was unclear.
 
I  said I didn't think it was up for debate.  Do you think there is clear proof of bullying?  Do you disagree that an NFL locker-room is a unique environment?   Do you really think its apt to compare school-yard bullying to an NFL locker-room?  If so, why?  
 
I don't think I am being stubborn at all unless you consider a different viewpoint being stubborn.  

 

[dwainw]

My thoughts are admittedly all over the place on this issue, but I'm not clear on why it's unreasonable to make the point that bullying is inherently different among adolescents vs. adults.   When you consider how vulnerable the adolescent brain is to everything introduced to it--be it drugs, another attractive adolescent, a parental split, a bad grade, hormonal surges, a zit....whatever.  If you superimposed this situation in Miami onto any pair of adolescents in a similar context, not only would the outcome likely be quite different, it would likely be different to the extreme, both in the short term (such as the likelihood of acute self-harm) and in the long term (such as lingering insecurities and self-destructiveness). 

If we all understand that kids are more vulnerable than adults, then it stands to reason that adult victims of bullying are generally more psycho-emotionally equipped to manage it.  Yes, there are important extenuating factors and exceptions to consider (mental illness being at the top), but without even mentioning the NFL vs. the real world "culture" that I'm kind of getting sick of hearing about, I think significant distinctions can be made.
 



 

 

[caesarbear]

How mature are these adults in the NFL locker room? Are they about the same as adults of the same age in other work places? What are the differences between NFL locker room bullying and the kind of bullying that might go on in a College locker room? A high school locker room? What other profession has an environment such as a locker room where the essential function does not change from the age of 14 into adulthood?

 

[Reverend]

 
If bullying even happened in this case, it was amongst adults, its a very unique environment and, the fact is, we don't even know if true "bullying" took place in this case.  Those are my main points and I don't think they are up for debate.  A school yard and NFL locker-room are not even close to the same environment although there may absolutely be shared behaviors by the people inhabiting both places.   
 
I have been bullied before, even in the workplace but I would argue that it isn't particularly relevant to a discussion about NFL locker-room culture.  As a side note I could argue that in your position of power as a psuedo-moderator, you are bullying right now by demanding that I "put up (whatever that means) or shut up".  
 
What if I don't?   

 
Fine, call it harassment or creating a hostile work environment. I think the latter standard actually makes things worse for the Dolphins/Incognito; it's a professional work space and they shouldn't be held to the low standards we make for children. Even if the environment is unique, why does it have to be shitty? We've heard from other players, current and former, that it doesn't have to be.
 
And for what it's worth, I don't have any mod powers, pseudo or otherwise. If I have any sway, it's because I have earned some modicum of respect over time for my posting. To the extent that that has occurred, I find it gratifying, but I don't think it bullying to post in that vein, and if you don't "put up," I expect no harm will befall you, board-wise or psychologically--and that's sorta the point, now, isn't it?

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

 
Fine, call it harassment or creating a hostile work environment. I think the latter standard actually makes things worse for the Dolphins/Incognito; it's a professional work space and they shouldn't be held to the low standards we make for children. Even if the environment is unique, why does it have to be shitty? We've heard from other players, current and former, that it doesn't have to be.
 
And for what it's worth, I don't have any mod powers, pseudo or otherwise. If I have any sway, it's because I have earned some modicum of respect over time for my posting. To the extent that that has occurred, I find it gratifying, but I don't think it bullying to post in that vein, and if you don't "put up," I expect no harm will befall you, board-wise or psychologically--and that's sorta the point, now, isn't it?

 
But what if I perceive your postings as threatening?  Didn't we establish upthread that that is the standard.   If so, you are my online Incognito and maybe I am a virtual Jonathan Martin.
 
Back on topic, I don't know what was really going on in the Dolphins locker room and specifically what happened between Incognito and Martin.  Its not clear that there was bullying or harassment or even a hostile work environment - at least insofar as locker-rooms go.    
 
By most accounts, Miami was worse than some other NFL locker-rooms.  However that assumes that the other accounts of what take place in, say, the Bears locker-room are accurate.  I have no reason to assume they are not but we all know that it is in the best interest of any other teams in the NFL to squash this story both across the league and at the franchise level.  FWIW, I have worked in corporate environments for years and know that when other businesses were under the spotlight for some practice - questionable or otherwise - my firms would immediately cease the same sort of activity and then proclaim that "we don't do that sort of thing here" (neglecting to mention that its because they just stopped doing so).    
 
Anyhow, Martin is now being treated for PTSD  and it will be interesting to see how this case evolves legally.  I suspect that he stands to make a fair bit more money than he otherwise might have had he simply played out the string of his career in the NFL.  This is not to say that Martin wasn't bullied or that Incognito's actions did not have a profound impact on him.  However its worth considering that this isn't really a case about bullying or hazing or harassment at all.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Challenging someone to expound upon their ideas and explain them isn't bullying . Edit: unless you are being a big time asshole about it. In Rev's case put up or shut up is closer to the line than my care-bear style but... it's still not saying he will shit down your mother's throat if you don't respond. In other words I am a 1 on the 1-10 bullying scale and he is a 3. Incognito is Nigel Tufnel, 11.

 

[seageral]

http://tracking.si.com/2013/11/15/jp-howell-yasiel-puig-bullied-dodgers/?eref=sihp
 
dodgers pitcher says puig was bullied... fwiw

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Challenging someone to expound upon their ideas and explain them isn't bullying . Edit: unless you are being a big time asshole about it. In Rev's case put up or shut up is closer to the line than my care-bear style but... it's still not saying he will shit down your mother's throat if you don't respond. In other words I am a 1 on the 1-10 bullying scale and he is a 3. Incognito is Nigel Tufnel, 11.

 
I think the core problem that people like DBMH, myself, MentalDisabledList, etc have had with this thread, to which very few seem willing to actually respond, is that the evidence for making this claim, at this point in time, is extremely paltry.  I mean really really scant - that's not to say it won't come out and prove Martin right, but it simply hasn't yet.  There is a massive discrepancy between the depth of the available evidence that clearly indicates meaningful bullying and the level of condemnation and sound and fury from the anti-bullying masses.
 
This is also why the whole comparisons issue is fundamentally inane.  Can you usefully compare X (the Martin situation) with Y (childhood bullying/sexual harassment/pedophilia/etc)?  I don't know.  How can anybody answer that question without knowing what X actually entailed?  It's logically impossible.

 

[Devizier]

 
I think the core problem that people like DBMH, myself, MentalDisabledList, etc have had with this thread, to which very few seem willing to actually respond, is that the evidence for making this claim, at this point in time, is extremely paltry.  I mean really really scant - that's not to say it won't come out and prove Martin right, but it simply hasn't yet.  There is a massive discrepancy between the depth of the available evidence that clearly indicates meaningful bullying and the level of condemnation and sound and fury from the anti-bullying masses.

 
What evidence would need to come out in order to satisfy you? Serious question.

 

[singaporesoxfan]

In the end it doesn't really matter if the NFL right now is different from most workplaces, and workplace bullying is not the same as sexual harassment. Whatever the actual facts of the Martin situation specifically, now that the case has shown there's a clear risk of legal liability from future rookies suing for hazing, not to mention the potential PR problems and distraction from game prep, I'm guessing most teams will be risk averse and clamp down on hazing or set clear limits on what is and isn't acceptable.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
What evidence would need to come out in order to satisfy you? Serious question.

 
I think a variety of evidence could be above that bar - evidence of sustained verbal harassment complemented by evidence that gives more indication of the meaning of communication, many different kinds of physical interactions, probably other kinds of evidence too - and am very much open to the possibility that truly hurtful bullying did occur in this case.  But I haven't seen that evidence yet, or really anything close.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

 
In the end it doesn't really matter if the NFL right now is different from most workplaces, and workplace bullying is not the same as sexual harassment. Whatever the actual facts of the Martin situation specifically, now that the case has shown there's a clear risk of legal liability from future rookies suing for hazing, not to mention the potential PR problems and distraction from game prep, I'm guessing most teams will be risk averse and clamp down on hazing or set clear limits on what is and isn't acceptable.
 

 
I agree with all of this.  On the other hand, what Martin is alleging is not really hazing, if that term is used to connote indoctrination rituals for first year players.  Nobody is claiming (at least that I know) that his emotional distress was caused by having to drop 10K on dinner or being forced to pay for a Vegas trip on which he didn't end up going.  And Martin doesn't have any allegations of more acutely hurtful hazing rituals a la the Cam Cleeland story.  To the extent that his claim has been clearly enunciated at all, he's making a different kind of allegation, of a more general level of bullying and abuse that is broader than hazing.  So I'm not sure that teams clamping down on hazing will actually stop the kinds of behavior that are at the center of the controversy.

 

[MannysDestination]

 
I think the core problem that people like DBMH, myself, MentalDisabledList, etc have had with this thread, to which very few seem willing to actually respond, is that the evidence for making this claim, at this point in time, is extremely paltry.  I mean really really scant - that's not to say it won't come out and prove Martin right, but it simply hasn't yet.  There is a massive discrepancy between the depth of the available evidence that clearly indicates meaningful bullying and the level of condemnation and sound and fury from the anti-bullying masses.
 
This is also why the whole comparisons issue is fundamentally inane.  Can you usefully compare X (the Martin situation) with Y (childhood bullying/sexual harassment/pedophilia/etc)?  I don't know.  How can anybody answer that question without knowing what X actually entailed?  It's logically impossible.

 
Given the fact that these are private organizations and it's unlikely for the full facts to see the light of day, I think that the actions of those people in the know are particularly meaningful when trying to ascertain how serious and fact-based these allegations are. For me, the most damning evidence is the actions of the Dolphins with regard to Incognito. Suspending Incognito means they are sacrificing their on-field performance and exposing themselves to a potential labor lawsuit.
 
The Dolphins almost certainly know more details about what occurred than anyone here, anyone in the NFL, or anyone in the media, and their response to the developments in this case give a LOT of credence to Martin's accusations in my book.
 
Perhaps the organization is overreacting and following one mistake with another, it's entirely possible that this is fabricated - unlikely but possible - and it's entirely possible that the Dolphins made an error suspending and continuing to suspend Incognito - also unlikely but possible - but with lawyers involved on both sides I think you and others are using an impossible burden of proof; Martin isn't going to publicly release an itemized list of incidents due to the potential legal angles here. There's a 99% chance that Martin's lawyers told him to not say another word to the press after the initial media frenzy, which means all incremental info has come from Incognito or Dolphins players on Incognito's side. Now Incognito has almost certainly received the same advice from the counsel he reportedly engaged this week in California.
 
Actions speak louder than these words, and the entity with the most direct information on what occurred, the Dolphins, has taken serious actions in line with the accusations having serious credibility.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Actions speak louder than these words, and the entity with the most direct information on what occurred, the Dolphins, has taken serious actions in line with the accusations having serious credibility.

Meh. They suspended him right as the "half-xxxxxx...shit-in-you-mouth...kill your family" voicemail was breaking. That's an action in line with having a lot more evidence of what happened and truly believing that bullying occurred, as you suggest. Its also an action completely in line with "Holy shit, this is a public relations nightmare and we have to get out in front of it, whether bullying occurred or not." In a hypothetical world in which they believed that true bullying had not occurred, its not like they could have gotten away with refusing to suspend Incognito - they would have been killed from every side. Ergo, if their actions are consistent with believing that true bullying had occurred and believing that true bullying hadn't occurred, its hard to read much into their actions.

More broadly, I agree that both sides are unlikely to release more info due to the legal issues at stake. But that's not itself a reason to believe that the available information is sufficient for drawing significant conclusions.

 

[soxfan121]

Meh. They suspended him right as the "half-xxxxxx...shit-in-you-mouth...kill your family" voicemail was breaking. That's an action in line with having a lot more evidence of what happened and truly believing that bullying occurred, as you suggest. Its also an action completely in line with "Holy shit, this is a public relations nightmare and we have to get out in front of it, whether bullying occurred or not." In a hypothetical world in which they believed that true bullying had not occurred, its not like they could have gotten away with refusing to suspend Incognito - they would have been killed from every side. Ergo, if their actions are consistent with believing that true bullying had occurred and believing that true bullying hadn't occurred, its hard to read much into their actions.

 
MMS, I don't know what you're defining as "true bullying". I'll hang up and listen.

 

[JimBoSox9]

Clutch bullying in the 7th inning or later, obviously.

 

[MannysDestination]

Meh. They suspended him right as the "half-xxxxxx...shit-in-you-mouth...kill your family" voicemail was breaking. That's an action in line with having a lot more evidence of what happened and truly believing that bullying occurred, as you suggest. Its also an action completely in line with "Holy shit, this is a public relations nightmare and we have to get out in front of it, whether bullying occurred or not." In a hypothetical world in which they believed that true bullying had not occurred, its not like they could have gotten away with refusing to suspend Incognito - they would have been killed from every side. Ergo, if their actions are consistent with believing that true bullying had occurred and believing that true bullying hadn't occurred, its hard to read much into their actions.

More broadly, I agree that both sides are unlikely to release more info due to the legal issues at stake. But that's not itself a reason to believe that the available information is sufficient for drawing significant conclusions.

 
But if the bold is true they could have reinstated him after four weeks and say their hands are tied by the current CBA. Instead, they practically begged Incognito to sue them (or more accurately, file a grievance with a potential subsequent lawsuit), and he's doing exactly that. That further adds credence to the notion that they think there is serious evidence backing up the claims here.
 
I completely agree that there is at least a substantial possibility that bullying did not occur - I wouldn't say it's the most likely possibility, but it's probably above a 5% chance and somewhere below a 25% chance if I were forced to use hard numbers. I could understand someone who said that the odds are as high as 50%. For message board discussion, I think the inverse of that odds breakdown - a 50%-95% chance some bullying occurred - is substantial enough to justify some discussion by armchair NFL fans on the internet. That includes bullying, comparisons to other bullying situations, how Martin might be trying to angle for a pay day, etc. 

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

But if the bold is true they could have reinstated him after four weeks and say their hands are tied by the current CBA. Instead, they practically begged Incognito to sue them (or more accurately, file a grievance with a potential subsequent lawsuit), and he's doing exactly that. That further adds credence to the notion that they think there is serious evidence backing up the claims here.

Maybe they knew that they couldn't suspend him for longer but did it for the sake of appearances. I really have no idea but I do know if our conclusions are largely based on how the Dolphins organization is or is not handling a scandal that has hugely negative PR, no matter what the truth of the allegations, then we're on pretty shaky ground.
 

MMS, I don't know what you're defining as "true bullying". I'll hang up and listen.

I completely agree that there is at least a substantial possibility that bullying did not occur - I wouldn't say it's the most likely possibility, but it's probably above a 5% chance and somewhere below a 25% chance if I were forced to use hard numbers. I could understand someone who said that the odds are as high as 50%. For message board discussion, I think the inverse of that odds breakdown - a 50%-95% chance some bullying occurred - is substantial enough to justify some discussion by armchair NFL fans on the internet. That includes bullying, comparisons to other bullying situations, how Martin might be trying to angle for a pay day, etc.

I don't have a definition of "true bullying" - you could come up with some very general guidelines but there's a pretty inescapable "Potter Stewart and pornography" element to the phenomenon - and I think it highly likely that we're in territory that involves a lot of grey, which is why I believe that we need real information about what actually happened to Jonathan Martin during his time with the Dolphins. The more complex a situation, the more evidence is usually needed to understand it in a meaningful way. I'm highly skeptical of the notion that Martin is simply lying and my guess is that he did experience emotional distress during his time with the Dolphins. But that doesn't mean he was bullied, at least in a way that is meaningful in my book.

To expand (on edit), its totally plausible to me that what happened is that Harvard Westlake/Stanford product Jonathan Martin got to the NFL, experienced some very minor and routine freshman hazing, was unlucky enough to have to line up next to a known asshole like Richie Incognito who wanted to treat him like a kid brother but was totally tone deaf to the reality that Martin didn't want to be like him, and ended up experiencing some significant emotional stress having to go to work every day thinking "I'm not like these guys and they know it, I don't know how to interact with them and I hate spending time with them and trying to fake it, I can't be the person or player that they want me to be, I'm playing like shit and coach wants to bench me, and if I wash out of the NFL then I'll be considered a huge bust and big disappointment to so many people." To me that would be a perfectly understandable reaction on Martin's part causing very real levels of emotional distress - in fact is probably how I would react if I were in his shoes - but its not obvious to me that this would really be a case of bullying. Maybe others disagree here.

My overall point is that scenarios like the above seem completely consistent with the few known facts, as do scenarios involving much more clearer cut patterns of bullying.

 

[soxfan121]

I don't have a definition of "true bullying" - you could come up with some very general guidelines but there's a pretty inescapable "Potter Stewart and pornography" element to the phenomenon - and I think it highly likely that we're in territory that involves a lot of grey, which is why I believe that we need real information about what actually happened to Jonathan Martin during his time with the Dolphins. The more complex a situation, the more evidence is usually needed to understand it in a meaningful way. I'm highly skeptical of the notion that Martin is simply lying and my guess is that he did experience emotional distress during his time with the Dolphins. But that doesn't mean he was bullied, at least in a way that is meaningful in my book.

 
I don't disagree with everything after the second "-" but the bolded sections leave me with the same question as before: what is "true bullying"? The voicemail, in and of itself, doesn't seem to meet your standard. If evidence of the physical assault is revealed (as promised by Martin's attorney), would that be "meaningful" evidence? Does it need to be physical to meet your standard. 
 
You're free to go Potter Stewart all you'd like but you seem to have a different working definition of what the minimum standard would be, so I'm going to continue asking you to refine your thoughts (please).

 

[Tony C]

 
I think the core problem that people like DBMH, myself, MentalDisabledList, etc have had with this thread, to which very few seem willing to actually respond, is that the evidence for making this claim, at this point in time, is extremely paltry.  I mean really really scant - that's not to say it won't come out and prove Martin right, but it simply hasn't yet.  There is a massive discrepancy between the depth of the available evidence that clearly indicates meaningful bullying and the level of condemnation and sound and fury from the anti-bullying masses.
 
This is also why the whole comparisons issue is fundamentally inane.  Can you usefully compare X (the Martin situation) with Y (childhood bullying/sexual harassment/pedophilia/etc)?  I don't know.  How can anybody answer that question without knowing what X actually entailed?  It's logically impossible.

 
This is well stated. When I dip into this thread it's not that I disagree with the denunciations of Incognito et al -- he seems like a first class a-hole and I'm not skeptical in the least that he's fully capable of the worst sorts of bullying. Martin's reactions give some sense that something weird was going on as does the bits of evidence that have appeared. More generally, Dolphin mgnmnt clearly is responsible for not being aware of a bad dynamic in their lockerroom. Even more generally a lot of the discussion of bullying has been spot on and, even, quite moving. That said, our knowledge of what actually has been going on both in Martin's head and in the Dolphin lockerroom is, as MMS says, scant. There's a whole lot of projecting going on -- the latest example of that is that the Dolphins having a CYA reaction is somehow proof of anything. That's very weak tea. Similarly, there's no basis on which to defend Incognito, either -- what has come public it enough to say he's a first class dickhead and clearly capable of over the top bs including criminal groping. But was he in the lockerroom a worse bully than, say, Garnett (who seems to escape with hardly any censure at all)? Can't say with the evidence at hand.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I don't disagree with everything after the second "-" but the bolded sections leave me with the same question as before: what is "true bullying"? The voicemail, in and of itself, doesn't seem to meet your standard. If evidence of the physical assault is revealed (as promised by Martin's attorney), would that be "meaningful" evidence? Does it need to be physical to meet your standard. 
 
You're free to go Potter Stewart all you'd like but you seem to have a different working definition of what the minimum standard would be, so I'm going to continue asking you to refine your thoughts (please).

What's your definition of true bullying? I'm genuinely curious. I honestly find it very difficult to say in the abstract, which is why I want to think about specific incidents or patterns of behavior.

The voicemail, without greater context, definitely does not meet my standard. Language acquires meaning through social context and I rally have no idea what the contextual dynamics were in that case. But that doesn't mean that verbal harassment couldn't amount to bullying.

I think a physical assault is potentially very serious but, again, I would want to know more about what happened and what precipitated the event. I think its pretty obvious that while bullying would often take physical forms, not every physical altercation between two people is an example of bullying.

 

[Reverend]

I still think the meetings in a strip club are a real frickin' problem with respect to all this.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I still think the meetings in a strip club are a real frickin' problem with respect to all this.

 
Is it because you weren't invited or because you wouldn't know what to do with your singles had you been?

 

[Statman]

http://tracking.si.com/2013/11/15/jp-howell-yasiel-puig-bullied-dodgers/?eref=sihp
 
dodgers pitcher says puig was bullied... fwiw

 
Dodgers pitcher retracts statement that Puig was bullied.
 
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/la/pitcher-jp-howell-clarifies-comments-about-bullying-and-yasier-puig?ymd=20131115&content_id=63957514&vkey=news_la
 

 

[caesarbear]

 
Is it because you weren't invited or because you wouldn't know what to do with your singles had you been?

So when you brought up the analogy of forum bullying, it was because you wanted to engage in it like this?
 
Would you like to explain how holding meetings at strip clubs are not a problem?

 

[snowmanny]

Yeah, to me this isn't so much about bullying as it is a hostile work environment.  The defense seems to be:
1) This was the established culture of the Miami Dolphins, there was nothing personal. But the established culture was by societal norms - and by norms that I expect were hammered into Martin at home, at Harvard-Westlake and Stanford - offensive.
2) Martin could have handled it better.  Which may be true, but it can be hard to figure out where to go when you are fighting an established culture.
3) Martin seemed nice to Incognito at times, and texted that it wasn't Richie's fault he left the team. Incognito is a jerk, but I think it's too easy to lay the blame at his feet when it seems pretty clear that there was a prevailing attitude on the team that his behavior was OK.  In fact, the support that Incognito has received from his teammates I think bolsters the case that something was inherently off in the lockerroom and it's not about one guy bullying another guy.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

So when you brought up the analogy of forum bullying, it was because you wanted to engage in it like this?
 

 
Yes.  I mean, Rev deserves it - he is practically asking for it.  Look at how he is posting.
 

 
 
Would you like to explain how holding meetings at strip clubs are not a problem?

 
No.  Two reasons, first I don't think that is particularly relevant to the thread and the topic.  Its almost like an add on detail to this sordid tale but doesn't get us anywhere closer to answering the questions raised by this story.  
 
Secondly, I don't think I, or anyone else in this thread has or actually would condone holding an organizational meeting at a "gentlemen's" club.  Well, maybe some people would but they are keeping quiet or are actually at said club rather than posting about it on the interwebs on a Friday night.  

 

[seageral]

 
Dodgers pitcher retracts statement that Puig was bullied.
 
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/la/pitcher-jp-howell-clarifies-comments-about-bullying-and-yasier-puig?ymd=20131115&content_id=63957514&vkey=news_la
 

don't i feel like the fucking asshole

 

[EvilEmpire]

What evidence would need to come out in order to satisfy you? Serious question.

It would be good to see the results of the investigation being conducted.

 

[Myt1]

 
If bullying even happened in this case, it was amongst adults, its a very unique environment and, the fact is, we don't even know if true "bullying" took place in this case.  Those are my main points and I don't think they are up for debate.  A school yard and NFL locker-room are not even close to the same environment although there may absolutely be shared behaviors by the people inhabiting both places.   
 
I have been bullied before, even in the workplace but I would argue that it isn't particularly relevant to a discussion about NFL locker-room culture.  As a side note I could argue that in your position of power as a psuedo-moderator, you are bullying right now by demanding that I "put up (whatever that means) or shut up".  
 
What if I don't?   

Then you're a lousy poster.
 
The issue is that you're adamantly trying to distinguish this situation from others because it happened in a different context.  But to do that, you just keep saying that it happened in a different context.  Which we all know.  Everyone here knows that the Miami Dolphins locker room is not a schoolyard.  It's different for all sorts of reasons that are self-evident.
 
What we don't know and what is not self-evident is what specific distinctions make the analogy inapt with regard to the current topic of conversation and why.  Instead of telling us that "it's different and I don't think it's up for debate," how about telling us why you think the differences matter so much as to make the comparisons worthless?  Because, regardless of the fact that these guys play professional football, the notion that they are a collection of alpha males strikes me as utterly ludicrous and evidencing of a shocking lack of understanding about how team or social dynamics work.  Like in many collections of supposedly tough or successful men, my guess is that the typical locker room in the NFL is a couple alphas, a shitload of betas, and a couple of omegas. 

 

[ethangl]

Philbin wanted to cut Incognito last year.

 

[smastroyin]

Here's my question then.  
 
Ireland and company were happy to part ways with Brandon Marshall at least partially due to his involvement with an incident where he hit his wife.  They didn't really wait for the facts, and it was actually found that Marshall had nothing to do with any of it other than being at the club and didn't hit anyone.
 
Richie Incognito, in a similar timeframe, after Incognito (allegedly) sexually harassed that worker, Ireland decided that he would overrule Philbin and keep him on the team.
 
I just don't know how the same management team can make these decisions.  

 

[Gunfighter 09]

I wonder if the coaching staff has the hammer on suspensions, but Ireland has final 53 approval on the roster. That would potentially explain the quick suspension of Incognito after the voicemail and then giving him two weeks of his money back. 

 

[Granite Sox]

Without a doubt this info re Philbin wanting to cut Incognito nicely sets up the expected end game of Ireland's dismissal and Incognito and Martin's respective releases.