Ruben Amaro Jr to be named first base coach

Plympton91

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
I'm simply not a fan of bringing in incompetents to the organization in any capacity.
 
This makes no sense.  Everyone has something at which they are really good and something at which they are really incompetent.  A good organization figures that out, it doesn't automatically disqualify people who have failed at a job that is almost orthogonal to the one for which they're being considered.   Aren't there plenty of successful managers who've failed when elevated to the GM role, and vice versa, people who've been good GMs but poor managers?  Pitching coaches who've excelled in that role and crashed and burned as a manager?  You wouldn't then advocate to rehire one of them as a pitching coach?
 

Plympton91

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
What's Amaro good at? Systematically destroying teams from within?
 
I'm not the one who interviewed him, and presumably examined what he did right during the years before he was determined to be a strong candidate for a GM position.   But, if you want to argue that the Red Sox front office still doesn't know what they're doing and hasn't learned anything from consecutive last place finishes, far be it from me to criticize that stance. 
 

soxhop411

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What would SOSH's reaction be if they hired Bobby Valentine as 1B coach and not RAJ?
 

DieHardSoxFan1

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Ruben has likely forgotten more about baseball than anyone on this board will ever know (Schilling being the exception). First base coaches have several responsibilities, a shocking reality to those who've never spent time in a major league clubhouse. With so much data and film made available to major league teams, a good 1B coach should study the pickoff moves and times to home plate of every pitcher on the opposing pitching staff. A good 1B coach notes the tendencies of opposing catchers - does he set up differently on breaking balls, can I see signs - and relays what he finds to his own hitters and base runners. On most staffs, the 1B coach is in charge of outfield positioning, a thankless job that requires a great deal of effort reviewing spray charts and convincing multi-millionaires with guaranteed contracts to buy into the scheme (the most difficult proposition of all). What's more, 1B coaches are often tasked with base running and outfield instruction, requiring both an intimate knowledge of the game and the throwing arms of every outfielder in the American League.

That being said, i feel bad for Arnie Beyeler. Seemed like a good man who did a good job. A shame to think he's looking for work because Dombrowski decided to give his buddy a big league coaching job.
 

EricFeczko

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soxhop411 said:
What would SOSH's reaction be if they hired Bobby Valentine as 1B coach and not RAJ?
You would see near unanimous opposition to the move. Amaro is more of an unknown, and his skill can be questioned due to lack of experience. Bobby V's skill as a 1B coach can be questioned because of his experience.


EDIT: Revised for clarity.
 

EricFeczko

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DieHardSoxFan1 said:
That being said, i feel bad for Arnie Beyeler. Seemed like a good man who did a good job. A shame to think he's looking for work because Dombrowski decided to give his buddy a big league coaching job.
How can you possibly know this?
 
 
Plympton91 said:
 
This makes no sense.  Everyone has something at which they are really good and something at which they are really incompetent.  A good organization figures that out, it doesn't automatically disqualify people who have failed at a job that is almost orthogonal to the one for which they're being considered.   Aren't there plenty of successful managers who've failed when elevated to the GM role, and vice versa, people who've been good GMs but poor managers?  Pitching coaches who've excelled in that role and crashed and burned as a manager?  You wouldn't then advocate to rehire one of them as a pitching coach?
I agree completely and would like to take this one step further.
One could argue that training is a critical component of being a good GM/manager/something. Ruben Amaro Jr's FO tutelage comes from working under Ed Wade and Pat Gillick. Notably, Ed Wade, the GM during Ruben's first seven formative years, made a habit of overpaying veterans in the twilight of their careers.
A better training environment and Ruben might have become a better GM; the fact that he didn't could have been a problem of training and not potential. We have no idea what his potential is as a 1B coach.
 

dcmissle

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Beyond hilarious that SoSH is being trolled this way. This is beyond the best creative fiction. And it will get even more hilarious when people start to nitpick his performance. Cause we won't be able to help ourselves.
 

SydneySox

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The only real concern here would be how Farrell views the hiring because I think it would be difficult, on the face of it, for both Farrell and Amaro to exist in this world.
 
I believe one of Farrell's (and the prime requirement for a manager) is man-management. Clearly this wouldn't have happened if Farrell didn't think it was a good idea.
 
I guess the issue would be whether he really thinks it's a good idea or if he's going along with someone else's good idea, say Dombrowski.
 

EvilEmpire

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Already can't wait until things don't work out with Hazen or he finds a better job. Always good to have in-house candidates.
 

Lowrielicious

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bosockboy said:
It never hurts to have access to a data dump from another organizations perspective.
Shouldn't we be targeting Cardinal employees then? You get two organisations data dumps for the price of one.
 

moondog80

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Before I can be on board with Brian Butterfield being brought back, we need to have a discussion on how he might perform as a GM.
 
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I'm surprised they're making a move like this. We'll have to wait and see, but I think it's a bad omen.
 
As this thread kind of attests, this creates a potential for distraction that is frankly unnecessary.Is the incremental value Amaro brings at first base really superior to the risk of a circus, sarcasm and unwarranted attention, through Spring training and beyond? In a market like Boston? Is Amaro allowed to talk to Rob Bradford? I mean, they don't have enough distractions over there? 
 
This may sound silly, but winning, focused teams don't make moves like this one. Keep the eye on the prize man. Ugh*.
 
 
*All said with due respect for Amaro; man's gotta make a living, and becoming a first base coach does take some...something. 
 

shaggydog2000

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They are clearly doing this only to crash this site. There is no other explanation.  We must be getting too close to the truth...
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Snoop Soxy Dogg said:
I'm surprised they're making a move like this. We'll have to wait and see, but I think it's a bad omen.
 
As this thread kind of attests, this creates a potential for distraction that is frankly unnecessary.Is the incremental value Amaro brings at first base really superior to the risk of a circus, sarcasm and unwarranted attention, through Spring training and beyond? In a market like Boston? Is Amaro allowed to talk to Rob Bradford? I mean, they don't have enough distractions over there? 
 
This may sound silly, but winning, focused teams don't make moves like this one. Keep the eye on the prize man. Ugh*.
 
 
*All said with due respect for Amaro; man's gotta make a living, and becoming a first base coach does take some...something. 
 
I don't understand where the potential for distraction is going to come from.  Are we really expecting the media to hound the guy on a daily basis?  Because of his former job?  Is it ever a distraction and a "circus" when former managers become coaches?
 
I expect he's going to perform the job like anyone else does.  Particularly if he's views it as a possible stepping stone for himself.
 
Choosing him to coach first might be an out of the box decision and initially perplexing, but I think the handwringing going on in this thread seems a tad over the top.  First base coach is a job that just isn't worth this kind of scrutiny no matter who's in the role.
 

soxhop411

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Sean McAdam ‏@Sean_McAdam  8s9 seconds ago
Red Sox make it official: Ruben Amaro Jr. names first base coach, OF instructor
 

Toe Nash

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I suppose it's not enough money that they couldn't just eat it, but was the three-year deal really necessary?
 

moondog80

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Toe Nash said:
I suppose it's not enough money that they couldn't just eat it, but was the three-year deal really necessary?
 
 
Two years (through 2017).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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chrisfont9 said:
There will be a couple stories during spring training, particularly when they play Philly. Then... why would anyone continue to write about him?
 
Exactly my point.  As I recall, the only time I've heard any 1B coach ever mentioned at all other than an occasional mention during a telecast is when Ron Johnson's daughter was hurt in that equestrian accident a few years ago.  Other than that, the role is generally quiet and anonymous.  This thread might be the height of the "circus" as far as Amaro as the 1B coach is concerned.
 

alwyn96

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Fair or not, as an OF coach Beyeler bears some degree of responsibility for Ramirez' performance in LF. Just wild, irresponsible speculation on my part, but I wonder if Beyeler just didn't fit well with older, more established players like Ramirez (and Cespedes too from what I recall) who maybe come from a different cultural background. A former minor league coach who never played in MLB, and never played in the OF, I could see how a guy fitting that profile might not get as much...I don't know, respect from veteran players. Amaro at least played OF as a professional player, and played in MLB for several years. Plus, he served at one of the highest levels in the game, and is clearly a personable and likable guy who can manage egos, because I can't think of another way he could have stuck around so long as a GM. Maybe he was like Wendall Kim - a very solid guy who kind of Peter Principled his way to the job that was just a little over his head.
 
The only things that make me slightly nervous are that Amaro hasn't really been an on-field coach in the clubhouse, I don't think. That seems like a pretty different role than the front office, but 1B coach is such a low-level role that I doubt he could be that bad at it. This does make me continue to think that we are going to see some big, splashy moves from Dombrowski this winter - even the hiring of the 1B coach is pretty high-profile! Perhaps the least important member of the coaching staff. Hold on to your butts.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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alwyn96 said:
Fair or not, as an OF coach Beyeler bears some degree of responsibility for Ramirez' performance in LF. Just wild, irresponsible speculation on my part, but I wonder if Beyeler just didn't fit well with older, more established players like Ramirez (and Cespedes too from what I recall) who maybe come from a different cultural background. A former minor league coach who never played in MLB, and never played in the OF, I could see how a guy fitting that profile might not get as much...I don't know, respect from veteran players. Amaro at least played OF as a professional player, and played in MLB for several years. Plus, he served at one of the highest levels in the game, and is clearly a personable and likable guy who can manage egos, because I can't think of another way he could have stuck around so long as a GM. Maybe he was like Wendall Kim - a very solid guy who kind of Peter Principled his way to the job that was just a little over his head.
 
Don't say that to Nick Cafardo. According Cafardo, Beyeler was a prince among men and probably the second coming of Christ. I say probably, because they don't call him Doubting Nicky for nothing. 
 

joe dokes

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
Exactly my point.  As I recall, the only time I've heard any 1B coach ever mentioned at all other than an occasional mention during a telecast is when Ron Johnson's daughter was hurt in that equestrian accident a few years ago.  Other than that, the role is generally quiet and anonymous.  This thread might be the height of the "circus" as far as Amaro as the 1B coach is concerned.
 
 
They really are pretty anonymous, outside of personal tragedy.....Johnson's daughter, Lynn Jones's eye and Mike Coolbaugh getting killed come to mind.
 

E5 Yaz

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joe dokes said:
 
 
They really are pretty anonymous, outside of personal tragedy.....Johnson's daughter, Lynn Jones's eye and Mike Coolbaugh getting killed come to mind.
 
Don't forget Tom Gamboa being attack by Chicago fans
 

Fireball Fred

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The more I think about it, well, the more I realize that I never think about first base coaches - but I'm seeing this as positive. This is a guy with tons of baseball knowledge trying to re-establish his value. He's a senior-level minority hire (and an additional Latino voice) which the Sox can use. And I take this as an indication that Farrell and Dombrowski are on the same wavelength.
 

nvalvo

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DieHardSoxFan1 said:
That being said, i feel bad for Arnie Beyeler. Seemed like a good man who did a good job. A shame to think he's looking for work because Dombrowski decided to give his buddy a big league coaching job.
He was Farrell's teammate in Cleveland. I'm guessing it's his hire.

Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that Amaro worked in the Phillies FO as an AGM under Wade and Gillick during a period when they assembled a pretty great club.

He made some bad calls trying to keep that window open, but he also presumably helped get it open in the first place.
 

nattysez

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alwyn96 said:
Fair or not, as an OF coach Beyeler bears some degree of responsibility for Ramirez' performance in LF. Just wild, irresponsible speculation on my part, but I wonder if Beyeler just didn't fit well with older, more established players like Ramirez (and Cespedes too from what I recall) who maybe come from a different cultural background. A former minor league coach who never played in MLB, and never played in the OF, I could see how a guy fitting that profile might not get as much...I don't know, respect from veteran players. Amaro at least played OF as a professional player, and played in MLB for several years. Plus, he served at one of the highest levels in the game, and is clearly a personable and likable guy who can manage egos, because I can't think of another way he could have stuck around so long as a GM. Maybe he was like Wendall Kim - a very solid guy who kind of Peter Principled his way to the job that was just a little over his head.
 
 
I agree.
 
Panda is super-sensitive and not an easy guy to "reach."  Hanley, according to many reports, stopped practicing OF despite needing to do so.  Maybe a former player who speaks Spanish will be able to get these guys' attention better than the coaches did this year.  Given the investment the team has made in Panda and Hanley and their performances to date, I'd say that anything that might make them better players/more receptive to coaching is a good idea.  
 
And as others have mentioned, for all the crap heaped on Amaro for the Phillies' recent results, he went to Stanford and was part of some very successful front offices -- I don't think the guy is a dummy.  And he's not going to be a distraction.  The guy seems to be trying to become a manager, which means he'll need to be a coach for at least a few years.  You don't survive as a coach by being a distraction or second-guessing the sitting manager (unless you're Jim Tomsula, but John Henry is no Jed York).
 

Fred not Lynn

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
 
Don't say that to Nick Cafardo. According Cafardo, Beyeler was a prince among men and probably the second coming of Christ. I say probably, because they don't call him Doubting Nicky for nothing. 
 
Arnie Beyeler managed a team with Mike Trout and Bryce Harper on it to a last place finish. That alone stands as an eternal black mark on his record...
 

joe dokes

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nattysez said:
 
I agree.
 
Panda is super-sensitive and not an easy guy to "reach."  Hanley, according to many reports, stopped practicing OF despite needing to do so.  Maybe a former player who speaks Spanish will be able to get these guys' attention better than the coaches did this year.  Given the investment the team has made in Panda and Hanley and their performances to date, I'd say that anything that might make them better players/more receptive to coaching is a good idea.  
 
 
 
 
This makes sense. And when "anything" is a relatively low impact move like first base coach, it seems worth it with little downside.  It's not like canning the manager -- or even the pitching coach -- because of his inability to "reach" a few players.
 
The darker side of me wonders whether Beyeler -- who was fired before Amaro even became available -- aired too much team laundry for the FO's liking. I'm thinking of that seemingly out-of-nowhere paean from Cafardo in which Betts, Castillo and JBJ's defensive successes  were Beyeler's handiwork, while Ramirez's (total) and Cespedes's (relative) OF failures were all on them. Maybe there were other things?
 

HomeRunBaker

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I sure hope many of these comments are in jest about a coaches responsibility. Amaro clearly wanted to return to the dugout and would need to do so in a secondary role initally. Aside from being the First Base Coach (which on its own carries minimal responsibilities) Ruben will also double as Arnie's replacement in taking over as outfield instructor for which he is certainly qualified for as a former ML outfielder.  Aside from that he is ambidextrous and will also serve as a LHP for batting practice which I do not believe we had on our coaching staff last season.
 
We aren't hiring him to negotiate trades or contracts........why some here even consider his limitations in this area is irresponsible at best.  He is a lower level coach/instructor which is a position that many former players step into when their playing careers are over. In Amaro's case this transition was delayed by a dozen years in the front office.  His experiences if applied properly can only be used to his advantage in player communication. 
 

GaryPeters71

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From Buster Olney's ESPN Insider piece today:
 
The Red Sox announced that Ruben Amaro will be their first-base coach. My surprise in this is not about Amaro's unusual jump from the front office to field staff because he made it clear this is something he's been thinking about for a while. Rather, it's about whether he's the best possible instructor for this role. This is something he really hasn't done before, and for a coach, a specific set of skills is needed. Maybe he'll be great, maybe not, but normally wouldn't you want to at least have him cut his teeth on this sort of work in the minors before assessing whether he's prepared for the big leagues?
 
This decision isn't that far removed from Dan Jennings' going from GM to manager for the Marlins. Yes, he had plenty of time in baseball in a leadership capacity, and he was armed with a ton of knowledge, but the question at the time was about whether he had amassed the particular set of skills needed for a job he had never done before.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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HomeRunBaker said:
I sure hope many of these comments are in jest about a coaches responsibility. Amaro clearly wanted to return to the dugout and would need to do so in a secondary role initally. Aside from being the First Base Coach (which on its own carries minimal responsibilities) Ruben will also double as Arnie's replacement in taking over as outfield instructor for which he is certainly qualified for as a former ML outfielder.  Aside from that he is ambidextrous and will also serve as a LHP for batting practice which I do not believe we had on our coaching staff last season.
 
We aren't hiring him to negotiate trades or contracts........why some here even consider his limitations in this area is irresponsible at best.  He is a lower level coach/instructor which is a position that many former players step into when their playing careers are over. In Amaro's case this transition was delayed by a dozen years in the front office.  His experiences if applied properly can only be used to his advantage in player communication. 
 
I agree with most everything you said here, except for the bolded. I don't know how you can make such blanket statement. Is Manny Ramirez certainly qualified to be an outfield instructor, simply because he played there? I'm not saying Amaro can't do it, I'm just saying that I think it's tough to automatically assume he is qualified to coach a position, just because he played it. Even if he played it well, it doesn't necessarily mean he would make a good coach.  
 

snowmanny

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
I agree with most everything you said here, except for the bolded. I don't know how you can make such blanket statement. Is Manny Ramirez certainly qualified to be an outfield instructor, simply because he played there? I'm not saying Amaro can't do it, I'm just saying that I think it's tough to automatically assume he is qualified to coach a position, just because he played it. Even if he played it well, it doesn't necessarily mean he would make a good coach.  
Funny you mention Manny, because that was an even weirder coaching hire and supposedly it's been OK. 
 

kieckeredinthehead

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joe dokes said:
The darker side of me wonders whether Beyeler -- who was fired before Amaro even became available -- aired too much team laundry for the FO's liking. I'm thinking of that seemingly out-of-nowhere paean from Cafardo in which Betts, Castillo and JBJ's defensive successes  were Beyeler's handiwork, while Ramirez's (total) and Cespedes's (relative) OF failures were all on them. Maybe there were other things?
 
Let me preface by saying that the hire probably doesn't matter much. But Amaro has been one of the biggest loudmouths in baseball over the past 5-10 years. I've never seen an "anonymous source" have such a clear authorial voice before I started reading any rumor related to the Phillies. 
 

chrisfont9

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
I agree with most everything you said here, except for the bolded. I don't know how you can make such blanket statement. Is Manny Ramirez certainly qualified to be an outfield instructor, simply because he played there? I'm not saying Amaro can't do it, I'm just saying that I think it's tough to automatically assume he is qualified to coach a position, just because he played it. Even if he played it well, it doesn't necessarily mean he would make a good coach.  
It's probably not totally fair to compare a Stanford grad to Manny. But the question stands.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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snowmanny said:
Funny you mention Manny, because that was an even weirder coaching hire and supposedly it's been OK. 
 
My point was that Manny obviously is not someone you want teaching OFs how to play, hence his status as a former MLB OF does not inherently qualify him to be an OF coach. Manny as a hitting coach in the minor leagues was still a risk, but he was generally considered a savant and an extremely hard worker when it came to that part of the game. 
 
I have no frame of reference for how proficient Amaro was as an OFer and someone might be able to vouch for him, but I would expect some proficiency in that department to say he qualifies. My issue was simply with the blanket statement of qualification. I don't think Luis Rivera necessarily qualifies to be an IF coach just because he played SS. 
 

chrisfont9

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
My point was that Manny obviously is not someone you want teaching OFs how to play, hence his status as a former MLB OF does not inherently qualify him to be an OF coach. Manny as a hitting coach in the minor leagues was still a risk, but he was generally considered a savant and an extremely hard worker when it came to that part of the game. 
 
I have no frame of reference for how proficient Amaro was as an OFer and someone might be able to vouch for him, but I would expect some proficiency in that department to say he qualifies. My issue was simply with the blanket statement of qualification. I don't think Luis Rivera necessarily qualifies to be an IF coach just because he played SS. 
It's a fair question, but don't you feel pretty sure the Red Sox looked into this? No matter how it's being described in the media, I'm guessing the Red Sox made a more thorough decision than "he was an outfielder, I'm sure he can teach."