Serious question about American pro athletes v USMNT athletes

[Titans Bastard]

 
Baltimore Celtic took some of the kids from the Baltimore Bays. My son's friend plays keeper for their U17 team which is in Tulsa right now playing for the national title. That club, although new, has 4 teams in the nationals.
 
I've heard various stories about Va Rush. An article last year, about the Rush kids returning to their HS teams said this:

 
Yeah, Baltimore Celtic is where Steve Nichols (the main Bays guy) went.  The new consortium in the DA called "Baltimore Armour", but apparently isn't as strong as Celtic.  But Baltimore Celtic doesn't want to play in the DA and Baltimore Armour has John Ellinger (who is like a stereotype of a USSF insider) involved.  So Armour is getting a crack at being Baltimore's DA representative.  We'll see how they do next season.
 

The word I heard from coaches and parents is that the USSF was pushing for no tuition and Beach FC, where my kid plays, wouldn't agree to that. They are making bank doing what they always did and had no incentive to change.
 
Who knows--I do know the Richmond Kickers poached one of the really good players from down here and he plays for them on the weekends at no charge but it's not for Richmond United. He plays for a Kickers team, but I would assume they are doing that as a farm team for the USSF program, so playing and practicing with them might get him visibility.
 
[SIZE=11.9999990463257px]VB City FC plays in the NPSL and they are starting an Academy program. Boys started last year, girls this year, but it's rudimentary now and only operates in the summer. They explained that they the hope is eventually it would be a functioning year-round program with no tuition, but admitted that at this point, the club can't afford that, so it's like the other clubs--if you can pay, you can play[/SIZE]

 
Huh.  Well, I certainly don't have any sources on the ground.
 
 

EDIT: All that said, this is America, and we love our rankings and polls.
 
This site: https://home.gotsoccer.com/rankings.aspx has rankings all the way down to U11 teams.
 
Uh oh, my son's team just fell to 16th in the state: http://home.gotsoccer.com/rankings/results.aspx?Level=State&Gender=Boys&Age=17&Region=1&State=VA
 
It's crazy.

 
[SIZE=11.9999990463257px]Thanks for posting that, I've never heard of that website.  The opening page, which classifies meaningless youth tournaments into seven tiers, each with ranking points involved, is......an example of misguided focus, to say the least.[/SIZE]

 

[Titans Bastard]

 
I don't agree with you here.  Most of the fundamentals of each sport are the same.  Passing triangles and defending space versus defending men, etc.  NBA types would understand quite well the ideas behind what the movement instincts needed to play this game.  I think NFL types would struggle much more, where there tends to be much more of an emphasis on running specific "plays" where movement is more dictated.  A good NBA player understands the need for passing options and creating space for teammates to give you the ball or the need to occupy space or location in order to free up other space for teammates.

I don't know.  No one can prove anything in this hypothetical.  I agree that NBA players would have some advantages in learning the game over players of other sports, but the parallels between basketball and soccer only go so far.  And there are thousands and thousands of pro soccer players who aren't able to read the game at an international level speed despite devoting their careers to it.  I'm skeptical that NBA guys would do better, even if they are elite basketball players.

 

[IdiotKicker]

I don't agree with you here.  Most of the fundamentals of each sport are the same.  Passing triangles and defending space versus defending men, etc.  NBA types would understand quite well the ideas behind what the movement instincts needed to play this game.  I think NFL types would struggle much more, where there tends to be much more of an emphasis on running specific "plays" where movement is more dictated.  A good NBA player understands the need for passing options and creating space for teammates to give you the ball or the need to occupy space or location in order to free up other space for teammates.

The big issue the U.S. has always had has been developing creative players who can truly create offense and see angles as other top countries do. Look at the types of players we've historically exported most successfully. They've been goalies and center backs, because those positions rely on tremendous athleticism and a mathematical approach to angles and positioning. We've never really had a strong pipeline of top line forwards or midfielders because it's not just about the athletic talent or even the technical skill. It's about the creativity to innovate on the fly, and we do a generally poor job of that for some reason.

 

[Shelterdog]

How long would it take the Brazilian or German national soccer teams to be a competitive major league baseball team?

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

How long would it take the Brazilian or German national soccer teams to be a competitive major league baseball team?

You mean like finish 3rd or so in the AL East?

 

[The Napkin]

 
I don't agree with you here.  Most of the fundamentals of each sport are the same.  Passing triangles and defending space versus defending men, etc.  NBA types would understand quite well the ideas behind what the movement instincts needed to play this game.  I think NFL types would struggle much more, where there tends to be much more of an emphasis on running specific "plays" where movement is more dictated.  A good NBA player understands the need for passing options and creating space for teammates to give you the ball or the need to occupy space or location in order to free up other space for teammates.

I would think hockey players would be even more likely to succeed at this theoretical challenge.

 

[dirtynine]

One big issue related to US team sports with goals is the size of the field and the number of ball-touching players on it.  20 field players, each who can touch, advance, defend, and control the ball - and score.  2 goalies who, plenty of time, play a role in tactical gameplay (not simply as shot-stoppers a la hockey).  Add in the size of the field (larger than any US sport) and the fact that game play never stops, and there are simply so many more strategic permutations that happen during 90 minutes than in any other game.  To me, that's specifically where the basketball comparison breaks down. For the creative players, the engines of their teams (Xavi, Scholes, Zidane), the tactical responsibilities during a match outstrip what the NBA, NHL or NFL asks any single player to do.  
 
I think this is why the US has been able to produce elite goalies (they are somewhat isolated and have most specifically defined role on the field) and why I think the next evolution in will be to produce good players in roles that are more specialized than average (poacher-style strikers; bruising defenders). Unless lightning strikes it will be a good while before a world-class #10 is developed domestically.  

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

Agree with DNine. I think modern outside (wing) back is another place the US may be able to develop a player or two.  

 

[soxfan121]

I would think hockey players would be even more likely to succeed at this theoretical challenge.

 
Quelle surprise.
 
While I agree that hockey players might get the highest grades in any geometry skills tests administered, they've spent a lifetime with the feet in heavy skates and probably run like untrained ten year olds. The likelihood any of them has a first touch that isn't like concrete is low. 

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

How familiar you guys are with Futsal? It's amazing for developing technical skills And quick thinking for football.

 

[Zomp]

We have a few futsal leagues here in RI.  Mostly Brazilian and Portuguese guys in their 40's playing but it can be fun.  Definitely helps technical skills and footwork but I find unless I toe blow the ball I can't get anything on shots.
 
I play pickup every Thursday with a bunch of Mexican guys I grew up with.  It doesn't matter if its 5v5 or 11v11 we NEVER play with big nets.  We always place two backpacks down for nets about 2 ft wide.  There is maybe 1 or 2 goals scored a game, its basically just keep away.  Similar to futsal it really helps developing skill, footwork, and passing.

 

[DLew On Roids]

One big issue related to US team sports with goals is the size of the field and the number of ball-touching players on it.

Let's leave David Cone out of this.

 

[Schnerres]

One big issue related to US team sports with goals is the size of the field and the number of ball-touching players on it.  20 field players, each who can touch, advance, defend, and control the ball - and score.  2 goalies who, plenty of time, play a role in tactical gameplay (not simply as shot-stoppers a la hockey).  Add in the size of the field (larger than any US sport) and the fact that game play never stops, and there are simply so many more strategic permutations that happen during 90 minutes than in any other game.  To me, that's specifically where the basketball comparison breaks down. For the creative players, the engines of their teams (Xavi, Scholes, Zidane), the tactical responsibilities during a match outstrip what the NBA, NHL or NFL asks any single player to do.  
 
I think this is why the US has been able to produce elite goalies (they are somewhat isolated and have most specifically defined role on the field) and why I think the next evolution in will be to produce good players in roles that are more specialized than average (poacher-style strikers; bruising defenders). Unless lightning strikes it will be a good while before a world-class #10 is developed domestically.  

 
I don´t think this will happen. This would be a step backwards (think like a sweeper with three-man coverage defenses in front of him and one guy in defensive midfield basically trying to neutralize opposing playmaker, when Barca played Ferencvaros Budapest in EC 91) and modern coaches like their players being versatile. You only have a roster with 20-24 field players (sounds like a lot, but if there are three injured and two at the African Nations Cup in january, it´s no problem to choose 18-man-roster without 2nd team guys) and you need them to be flexible. Pep likes the players who can play multiple positions: Lahm, Alaba, Martinez can play in defense and in defensive midfield, Müller can play multiple positions in attack, new signing Douglas Costa can play on the right and left wing,...Hertha coach Pal Dardai even plays his keepers (!!) as defenders in preseason matches, so they get in better shape and their technique improves, which all makes sense.
Specified players will be there all the time, but the trend goes more and more to players with multiple positions and greater flexibility, especially at the clubs with long international club seasons.

 

[DJnVa]

[SIZE=11.99px]Thanks for posting that, I've never heard of that website.  The opening page, which classifies meaningless youth tournaments into seven tiers, each with ranking points involved, is......an example of misguided focus, to say the least.[/SIZE]

 
It's fun for the kids to be honest, watching how a tourney result moves them around.
 
Clearly it's a flawed system, but it gives teams some idea what they're going up against and allows tournaments to at least have a way to try to get teams grouped together.

 

[DJnVa]

How familiar you guys are with Futsal? It's amazing for developing technical skills And quick thinking for football.

 
 
When kids getting their first exposure to soccer are thrown out on a huge field and playing even 8v8 there's no pressure to develop a lot of technical skills. You don't need them. You can hoof it upfield and the fastest kids will get to it first.
 
Kids that move into club level sometimes get a coach that understands small sided games in tight spaces are one of the best drills they can do, but it's too late for a lot of them.
 

 

[The Napkin]

 
Quelle surprise.
 
While I agree that hockey players might get the highest grades in any geometry skills tests administered, they've spent a lifetime with the feet in heavy skates and probably run like untrained ten year olds. The likelihood any of them has a first touch that isn't like concrete is low. 

 
I'm not sure why you would think that. You're aware of how many hockey players warm up before games by juggling a soccer ball around aren't you? You really don't think hockey players wouldn't have better foot skills than NBA players (which was the post I was replying to)?

 

[speedracer]

We've never really had a strong pipeline of top line forwards or midfielders because it's not just about the athletic talent or even the technical skill. It's about the creativity to innovate on the fly, and we do a generally poor job of that for some reason.

 
I think this point bears repeating (that our deficit in tactical savvy is a bigger weakness than our deficit in ball skills).  I think I've lost count of the number of times we had a scoring chance in a big spot and two guys cancelled each other out by making the same run.

 

[Saints Rest]

 
I'm not sure why you would think that. You're aware of how many hockey players warm up before games by juggling a soccer ball around aren't you? You really don't think hockey players wouldn't have better foot skills than NBA players (which was the post I was replying to)?

I did not know that. I wonder how much of that is due to the heavy Euro contingent in the NHL.

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

 
 
When kids getting their first exposure to soccer are thrown out on a huge field and playing even 8v8 there's no pressure to develop a lot of technical skills. You don't need them. You can hoof it upfield and the fastest kids will get to it first.
 
Kids that move into club level sometimes get a coach that understands small sided games in tight spaces are one of the best drills they can do, but it's too late for a lot of them.
 

That's kinda my point. Who said that kids first exposure had to be in an organized environment?

I played regularly till my late teens and still do sporadically, but could probably count in my hands the times it was 11v11.

You just need a ball, something to pass as a goal (shoes, backpacks, sticks) and some friends.

 

[soxfan121]

 
I'm not sure why you would think that. You're aware of how many hockey players warm up before games by juggling a soccer ball around aren't you? You really don't think hockey players wouldn't have better foot skills than NBA players (which was the post I was replying to)?

 
No, I really don't. NBA athletes have much more experience using their feet to cut, plant, pivot and run than hockey players, who despite playing hackeysack in the locker room, don't use their feet in their given sport as anything but propulsion. Patrice Bergeron has a much greater ability to understand the geometry of soccer but much less chance of actually implementing that knowledge, as almost everything he's done athletically has had a skate attached. 

 

[BrazilianSoxFan]

Not to mention that hockey players are serial sprinters, not marathoners. Would they have the stamina to last a whole game?

 

[djhb20]

It does seem - consistent with the world class players the U.S. has produced - that if LeBron decided to become a keeper, he'd have a pretty good chance of being rather good it. But even were that so, a team of 23 keepers ain't going very far.

 

[lexrageorge]

It does seem - consistent with the world class players the U.S. has produced - that if LeBron decided to become a keeper, he'd have a pretty good chance of being rather good it. But even were that so, a team of 23 keepers ain't going very far.

The fundamental point being missed is that there are a number of top notch athletes that play basketball, football, etc. today at the college level.  A tiny percentage of those go on to have pro careers, and even smaller percentage do more than have a cup of coffee.  
 
LeBron is a great athlete.  He is also a great basketball player.  Assuming he could rise from the same pool of great athletes and excel in another organized, world class sport such as soccer is assuming a whole lot.  There's a reason Pedro's career batting statistics included a 0.099 batting average and 0 HR's in 518 plate appearances (although it must have been fun to witness his 2 triples).

 

[djhb20]

I'm really not taking the position that LeBron could tomorrow decide to play keeper and be on a World Cup team, just that the most translatable position seems to be keeper.

However, referencing Pedro not being good at something he never tried to be good at, especially when Pedro's specific skills are not the ones that translate into being good at that, really doesn't provide much of an argument.