Sleuth out who Bill James is talking about - 2011 Sox

Van Everyman

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Shank is all over this (of course he is). But he interviews Tito, who again reminds us how awesome he is:

“He’s never been in the clubhouse, to my knowledge,” stated Tito. “I don’t even know where to begin. When you lose like we did in Boston, there always has to be a reason. It can’t just be that you weren’t good enough. That team — we started out like 2-12, then we went 80-40 and I don’t remember anybody saying all those things on September 1st. We just kind of [expletive] the bed. Go back and look. Daniel Bard had a horrible September. He didn’t even drink. Our pitching was wiped out. We just played bad. I don’t know where Bill is coming up with all this. Also, Bill spent years telling me that this kind of stuff didn’t matter. It was all about the numbers with him.”
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/01/21/sports/is-there-anything-cryptic-criticism-bill-james-2011-red-sox-other-thoughts/
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Francona is exactly right. That collapse was a perfect example of "whatever could go wrong did go wrong." Injuries, bad luck, players like Bard turning into pumpkins. I remember a game that September against the Yankees where a shattered bat almost took off the shortstop's head (Scutaro?) on what should have been a rally killing double play ball. But we can't just have "injuries and bad luck" as the explanation for a catastrophic collapse. It must be about leadership and character! The aftermath reminded me an old fashioned witch hunt - the crops failed for a myriad of inter-related reasons that are beyond our ability to synthesize because they are so complicated and numerous, so there must be a simple solution, which is to burn the witch!
 
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Old Fart Tree

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Francona is exactly right. That collapse was a perfect example of "whatever could go wrong did go wrong." Injuries, bad luck, players like Bard turning into pumpkins. I remember a game that September against the Yankees where a shattered bat almost taking off the shortstop's head (Scutaro?) on what should have been a rally killing double play ball. But we can't just have "injuries and bad luck" as the explanation for a catastrophic collapse. It must be about leadership and character! The aftermath reminded me an old fashioned witch hunt - the crops failed for a myriad of inter-related reasons that are beyond our ability to synthesize because they are so complicated and numerous, so there must be a simple solution, which is to burn the witch!
I agree, to a point. There’s a lot of truth to this comic:

48629

if they squeak out ONE more win - could have been in May, even - we don’t have this conversation. It’s only ex post this huge collapse that this stuff gets examined.
 

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
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Francona is exactly right. That collapse was a perfect example of "whatever could go wrong did go wrong." Injuries, bad luck, players like Bard turning into pumpkins. I remember a game that September against the Yankees where a shattered bat almost took off the shortstop's head (Scutaro?) on what should have been a rally killing double play ball. But we can't just have "injuries and bad luck" as the explanation for a catastrophic collapse. It must be about leadership and character! The aftermath reminded me an old fashioned witch hunt - the crops failed for a myriad of inter-related reasons that are beyond our ability to synthesize because they are so complicated and numerous, so there must be a simple solution, which is to burn the witch!
Francona is right. But there's also no denial of James's descriptions, as far as I can tell, in his comment to shaughnessy.
 

lexrageorge

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Francona is right. But there's also no denial of James's descriptions, as far as I can tell, in his comment to shaughnessy.
I tend to doubt that cliques, drinkers, weed smokers, self-absorbed egoists, and racially insensitive folks were unique to the Red Sox clubhouse in 2011. Or any season, for that matter.
 

dano7594

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Jul 15, 2005
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Since we are talking about 2011.......I am going to say something very unpopular. No connection to James' comments.

As someone that loved Francona while here, I hate him now and root my ass off for him to lose. Since gone he has given the middle finger to Boston, maybe because the Hohler piece or something else not sure. But he owes much of his career and resurgence to the Red Sox.

My son and I saw him at an Indians autograph event 4 years ago, my son wanted his autograph. As we approached I told him I am Red Sox and fan and I want to thank you for 04 and 07. He looked up at me, and said ok next. I was not looking for you're welcome but was somewhat surprised at his reaction.

Next if you don't think his ultimate F U was to write that book with Shaughnessy I don't know what to tell you. He could've wrote that with ANYONE and by picking him that was his you can all go to hell moment to the fans.
 

BigMike

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I tend to doubt that cliques, drinkers, weed smokers, self-absorbed egoists, and racially insensitive folks were unique to the Red Sox clubhouse in 2011. Or any season, for that matter.
Agree with this statement

Maybe the ratio was worse on this team,. who knows. Apparently it wasn't a problem for 5 months as they ran roughshod through the division until Sept 3, and then apparently all the poor intangibles on the roster suddenly exploded I guess.
 

cantor44

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In my opinion this is a legitimate Main Board offseason topic.

If you'd like it to be meatier then I'd suggest starting to talk about the impact team dynamics have on performance and the inability of analytics to account for that.

Please take any further questions to Backwash. Thanks.
If you're going to assert that team dynamics impact performance get ready for a fuselage of vitriol ...it's something that I believe, and have some experiential understanding of being in a performance field ... but whenever I've asserted it, there was a lotta howling and assertions of my stupidity. I began to gather quotes from players, and people in sports that attested to as much to submit into the discussion, but gave up the effort eventually learning it's a lost cause on this site (as much as I love my SoSH brothers and sisters and I do!) ... but here we have the grandfather of the number crunchers tipping his hat to "chemistry" of all things!
 

jon abbey

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If you're going to assert that team dynamics impact performance get ready for a fuselage of vitriol ...it's something that I believe, and have some experiential understanding of being in a performance field ... but whenever I've asserted it, there was a lotta howling and assertions of my stupidity. I began to gather quotes from players, and people in sports that attested to as much to submit into the discussion, but gave up the effort eventually learning it's a lost cause on this site (as much as I love my SoSH brothers and sisters and I do!) ... but here we have the grandfather of the number crunchers tipping his hat to "chemistry" of all things!
‘Fusillade’ is the word you’re looking for, and the reaction to your endless trade deadline posts was specific to you, not overarching positions on chemistry in sports.
 

Humphrey

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"Our pitching was wiped out".

Starting pitching decisions IMHO killed that team. Buchholz got hurt and they banked on him coming back, which was a longshot.
Wakefield was kept around for what seemed like pure sentiment only (the sickening Quest For #200), had nothing left. Lackey should have shut it down and gone under the knife, which he had to the next spring. Not much done in terms of acqusitions (Erik Bedard).

And that's why Kyle Weiland was starting critical games in September.
 

jasail

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Baseball players are a diverse and notoriously eccentric lot. I believe the 90s had a decent comedy (or maybe two) that spoofed this motif. I don't think there was anything tremendously unique about the '11 Red Sox clubhouse in terms of their dysfunctionality, petulance, or entitlement. The problem was a bad mix of guys vastly under-performed expectations and collapsed down the stretch. I don't view it as causal, in fact, the collapse can largely be explained away by injury and ineffectiveness. However, and as always, the narrative has more compelling demands of its antagonist.

I'm a firm believer that where there are billowing clouds of putrid smoke a fire is likely nearby. While the clubhouse problems facing this team were probably not unique they were certainly pervasive. I'll never be convinced Crawford sulking about his batting spot or Lackey/Beckett/Lester draining beers cost them the season more than Weiland and Miller getting a half dozen starts in must win September games. From my perspective, the clubhouse stuff didn't derail the season, but maybe it did just enough peripheral damage to keep them from putting the train back on the tracks. Talent is what kept them from achieving, but maybe the ugliness of the fail was a product of the club house. If they had a glue guy or a bit less toxicity, perhaps the fail is a bit more common. If that's the case though, then they don't clean house in '12 and assemble that '13 team. So, thank you Adrian Gonzalez for paving the way for Mike Napoli.
 

jaytftwofive

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View attachment 48483

Courtesy of Hesketh on FB. My guess is ellsbury is the selfish one and Aceves (165 ERA+) is the criminal? The chicken and beer crew strikes me as potentially not terribly forward thinking on social issues so that’s my guess. Nuts, papelbon is the rebuttable presumption there. Pot smokers… I’m guessing Miller? Scutaro spent some time in the Bay, didn’t he? So that’s my wild assed guess.

Dammit I forgot to clarify this was the 2011 collapse team.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2011.shtml
It was the at the end of 2005, that Theo left in the gorilla suit. Then he came back on 06. If somebody already posted this sorry, but I didn't see it.
 
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MtPleasant Paul

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As this thread draws to its close, for the record I submit that Adrian Gonzalez has gotten a bad rap here. I found four or five nominations of him as a selfish player "in it for himself."

Au contraire, he seems to have been a good teammate. John Farrell recalled that Gonzalez and David Ortiz spent a lot of time talking about hitting and credits him with Papi's improved production against southpaws in 2011. In 2012 Gonzalez volunteered to play 18 games in right field, lumbering around in an unfamiliar position to open first base to Youkilis who was in a logjam with Middlebrooks at third. He was praised for this by Bobby Valentine and in the press to the point where some worried he was risking injury.

Coming from the quiet San Diego market, Gonzalez was uncomfortable with the Boston media circus and "all the drama." Maybe he didn't like playing here, but it's a big leap from this to say that he was a lousy teammate.
 

Average Reds

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As this thread draws to its close, for the record I submit that Adrian Gonzalez has gotten a bad rap here. I found four or five nominations of him as a selfish player "in it for himself."

Au contraire, he seems to have been a good teammate. John Farrell recalled that Gonzalez and David Ortiz spent a lot of time talking about hitting and credits him with Papi's improved production against southpaws in 2011. In 2012 Gonzalez volunteered to play 18 games in right field, lumbering around in an unfamiliar position to open first base to Youkilis who was in a logjam with Middlebrooks at third. He was praised for this by Bobby Valentine and in the press to the point where some worried he was risking injury.

Coming from the quiet San Diego market, Gonzalez was uncomfortable with the Boston media circus and "all the drama." Maybe he didn't like playing here, but it's a big leap from this to say that he was a lousy teammate.
John Farrell was the Manager of the Toronto Blue Jays for the entirety of the time that Gonzales was a member of the Red Sox. I’m not sure that his recollections are worth anything.

That said, I have no issue with Gonzales and I certainly don’t blame him for the poor fit.
 

YTF

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As this thread draws to its close, for the record I submit that Adrian Gonzalez has gotten a bad rap here. I found four or five nominations of him as a selfish player "in it for himself."
It's a thread where we've been encouraged to speculate about which players are pot heads, head cases, selfish and racist. I'm guessing a few guys may have gotten a bad rap here.
 

MtPleasant Paul

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John Farrell was the Manager of the Toronto Blue Jays for the entirety of the time that Gonzales was a member of the Red Sox. I’m not sure that his recollections are worth anything.

That said, I have no issue with Gonzales and I certainly don’t blame him for the poor fit.
Farrell was the Sox pitching coach in 2009 and 2010 when Ortiz was supposedly struggling against lefthanders and he was managing against them for maybe 19 games a year in 2011-2012 when Ortiz and Gonzalez played together, so his opinion has some value.